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-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And Thereís Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

Mumbles 9th December 2017 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over (Post 12105441)
Franken says he will resign.

Eh, he should, given all of the allegations against him.

Skeptic Ginger 9th December 2017 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbles (Post 12108164)
Eh, he should, given all of the allegations against him.

No he should not. Sadly instead of looking at each case individually, people are just lumping questionable (perceptions) and minor (the grope joke) offenses into the same category as answering the door masturbating and a 32 yr old heavy petting a 14 yr old.

Marcus 9th December 2017 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12078695)
It was a skit?

I'll wait for more assertions to come in. He's been around a long time, if it's a pattern there'll be more. Given he's worked to expose abusers like O'Reilly and abusive situations like the Saipan sweatshops, this is another person that the accusation seems out of character for the accused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12108180)
No he should not. Sadly instead of looking at each case individually, people are just lumping questionable (perceptions) and minor (the grope joke) offenses into the same category as answering the door masturbating and a 32 yr old heavy petting a 14 yr old.

You were waiting for more assertions to come in and we are up to eight now. Is this not a pattern?

Skeptic Ginger 9th December 2017 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 12108328)
You were waiting for more assertions to come in and we are up to eight now. Is this not a pattern?

Yeah, it's a pattern people don't like the way he hugs when he takes a photo with them. Do you see any kind of pattern at all he's into random gropes in the hallway or anything? I'm sorry, this is not the pattern of a serial sexual abuser.

One of the supposed kiss requests he denies outright and it's not a pattern.

And I've spent more than enough time discussing the issues with Ms Tweeden.

This is blatant false equivalence and most people who take a close look at the situation instead of following the crowd should be able to see that.

Right wingers in this thread, OTOH, would love for Franken to be just like their guys.

Marcus 9th December 2017 07:10 PM

Yes, Moore and Trump are worse, how is this relevant? You wanted more assertions and you got them.

kellyb 9th December 2017 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12108347)
Yeah, it's a pattern people don't like the way he hugs when he takes a photo with them. Do you see any kind of pattern at all he's into random gropes in the hallway or anything? I'm sorry, this is not the pattern of a serial sexual abuser.

Powerful men using photo ops to get away with butt-grabbing apparently is a thing.

http://fair.org/home/media-make-excu...feel-assaults/

kellyb 9th December 2017 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus (Post 12108379)
Yes, Moore and Trump are worse, how is this relevant? You wanted more assertions and you got them.

With #metoo being so recent, this emerging "Well, sure, #metoo, but not all sexual assaults are traumatizing and violent, and hey, it's Al Franken, for the love of god..." is weird.

JoeMorgue 9th December 2017 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12108347)
This is blatant false equivalence and most people who take a close look at the situation instead of following the crowd should be able to see that.

Bull. Not wanting to play "Whataboutism" is not false equivalency.

Watching one side bend over backwards to make up excuses and clauses and language softening when they would be breaking out the torches and pitchforks if he had a (R) after his title instead of a (D) is just pathetic.

It's simple and frustrating that so many don't get it: What Moore and Trump did has NOTHING to do with what Franken did. Bringing them up has no place in this discussion.

johnny karate 9th December 2017 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106844)
Principles like Democrat Harvey Weinstein had principles? Principles like Kevin Spacey and Matt Lauer had principles? Principles like John Edwards had principles? Like Bill Clinton had principles? Like John "settle harassment claims under NDA with taxpayer money" Conyers had principles?

There has never been a moral high ground for Democrats, here.

I think it’s fairly obvious by context I was referring to political office-holders and those who actually held an office sometime in this century.

But hey, you cast that net as wide as you feel you need to offer your petty distractions from the complete moral bankruptcy into which your chosen party has sunk.

johnny karate 9th December 2017 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12106875)
Talk about a biased #3 there. :rolleyes:

How about: The accusations arenít completely true, rather the accused did something that was misinterpreted.

Innocent actions that have been misinterpreted can be explained.

JoeMorgue 9th December 2017 08:25 PM

My God if we could hook a generator up to the "Whatabout" round robin going on we've power this civilization for the next thousand years.

johnny karate 9th December 2017 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12106919)
Groups with actual principles don't magically turn out to have so many witches in their midst.

No group can account for the behavior of all their members, all the time. All they can do is adhere to their collective principles when bad behavior of certain members reveals itself.

You know, the exact opposite of what the Republicans are doing.

Skeptic Ginger 9th December 2017 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyb (Post 12108386)
Powerful men using photo ops to get away with butt-grabbing apparently is a thing.

http://fair.org/home/media-make-excu...feel-assaults/

Oh like that's relevant. :rolleyes:

Thousands of photos, photo ops with Franken, can't anyone find one where a bystander caught the butt grabbing?

Skeptic Ginger 9th December 2017 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBentley (Post 12108416)
Bull. Not wanting to play "Whataboutism" is not false equivalency.

Watching one side bend over backwards to make up excuses and clauses and language softening when they would be breaking out the torches and pitchforks if he had a (R) after his title instead of a (D) is just pathetic.

It's simple and frustrating that so many don't get it: What Moore and Trump did has NOTHING to do with what Franken did. Bringing them up has no place in this discussion.

So you've lost the ability to discriminate between actual sexual predatory behavior and something which is in no way the same?

It has nothing to do with a D or an R. I have no problem with Conyers resigning. Wasn't he the guy they found 90 grand in his freezer? He should have resigned years ago. Do you see me defending any of the accused Hollywood liberal elites?

Draw whatever conclusions you want, but your false assumptions about my motives is not a supportable position.

Skeptic Ginger 9th December 2017 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12108453)
Innocent actions that have been misinterpreted can be explained.

Franken did explain them. He just did so without attacking the women.

He said his photo hugs were misperceived and he said he remembered things differently with the hugs and Tweeden's kissing complaint.

And he said the second kiss accusation was a blatant falsehood. How would you like him to defend himself without attacking the women?

johnny karate 9th December 2017 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12108505)
Franken did explain them. He just did so without attacking the women.

He said his photo hugs were misperceived and he said he remembered things differently with the hugs and Tweeden's kissing complaint.

And he said the second kiss accusation was a blatant falsehood. How would you like him to defend himself without attacking the women?

Saying ďI remember things differentlyĒ isnít an explanation, itís a cop out.

Bob001 9th December 2017 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12108502)
....
It has nothing to do with a D or an R. I have no problem with Conyers resigning. Wasn't he the guy they found 90 grand in his freezer? He should have resigned years ago. Do you see me defending any of the accused Hollywood liberal elites?
....

No, you're thinking of this guy, who ultimately went to prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Jefferson

Actually, Conyers has a pretty good record as a liberal leader, although nobody should be able to keep his seat for 52 years.

Skeptic Ginger 9th December 2017 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 12108547)
No, you're thinking of this guy, who ultimately went to prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Jefferson

Actually, Conyers has a pretty good record as a liberal leader, although nobody should be able to keep his seat for 52 years.

Oh, thanks. I'll have to be more careful when judging these corrupt liberals. ;)

Skeptic Ginger 9th December 2017 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12108525)
Saying ďI remember things differentlyĒ isnít an explanation, itís a cop out.

Again this assertion is repeated without addressing: how do you do defend yourself without accusing the accusers of lying?

Bob001 10th December 2017 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12108563)
Again this assertion is repeated without addressing: how do you do defend yourself without accusing the accusers of lying?

You might describe your own recollections in detail and let observers make up their own minds. In at least some of the grab/pat/kiss situations, it might well be that the "violator" thought he was just engaging in harmless horseplay. But the subject might well have felt threatened or intimidated, especially if he/she was a subordinate or who was smaller/weaker/younger and didn't feel that he/she could fight back.

In his apology, Charlie Rose's defense for his antics was that he thought there was "something" between himself and the women he abused. So is his recollection that he was displaying courting behavior, or what? Kevin Spacey has defended some of his behavior by claiming to be drunk. Etc.

If an accuser is lying about the event, the accused gets to say it never happened. But if the accused really did kiss/grab/expose himself/etc. to the accuser, she gets to decide how it made her feel. The accused doesn't get to say "She's overreacting," or "I'm sorry she misinterpreted my attempt to be friendly." Let the facts speak for themselves.

johnny karate 10th December 2017 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12108563)
Again this assertion is repeated without addressing: how do you do defend yourself without accusing the accusers of lying?

If itís an innocent misunderstanding, the accuser can explain what happened. No need to call anyone a liar.

I donít know about the other women, but there was no innocent misunderstanding between Franken and Tweeden. He behaved inappropriately, and we have photographic evidence. Thatís what lead to his downfall.

kellyb 10th December 2017 02:57 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12108497)
Oh like that's relevant. :rolleyes:

Thousands of photos, photo ops with Franken, can't anyone find one where a bystander caught the butt grabbing?

Love your cutsie, condescending eyerolls. Bush Sr groping in a photo op and Franken groping in photo ops is the exact same thing.

Political tribalism is a helluva drug.

I was groped a few times in Jr high, highschool, and at work in my 20's. I was expected to just "stand up for myself" in the form of telling the dudes to eff off, but it was so "normal" and common, the idea of getting a groper *fired* for it was completely off the table. Unthinkable.

My daughter just turned 10 yesterday, and I want her to grow up in a society where she can know the collective "we" have her back, and butt grabbing and groping is NOT funny or "normal".

The audacity to suggest that this little girl should expect to grow up and maybe have her butt grabbed, and just "take one for the team" if the groper is a liberal political figure is grotesque.

kellyb 10th December 2017 03:01 AM

Know why there's never been a flood of women accusing Obama, McCain, Sanders, freakin Mr Rogers of being gropers?

Because they're actually not gropers.

kellyb 10th December 2017 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12108563)
Again this assertion is repeated without addressing: how do you do defend yourself without accusing the accusers of lying?

You call liars out as liars. This is not rocket surgery.

Foolmewunz 10th December 2017 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyb (Post 12108638)
Love your cutsie, condescending eyerolls. Bush Sr groping in a photo op and Franken groping in photo ops is the exact same thing.

Political tribalism is a helluva drug.

<snip>

Snippage is not to ignore the remainder of your post, with which I largely concur. Just wanted to address the above.

That's not a condescending eyeroll. That's addressed to the conservative voices who've said Not A Damned Thing about Bush I's literally identical behavior, which was dismissed by supporters and family spokesfolk as "Just George being George and making a little joke." Even in light of the fact that people have said that in these instances he also told a favored off-color joke.

The pearl-clutchers on the right do not care about Roy Moore or Bush Senior. They care about getting at a leading light on the Democratic side of the aisle.


I think what we've come to is Al has to take one for the team. That team, unfortunately, seems to want to get even, in two weeks, for every ass grabber and funny uncle that we've all encountered. "All". I'm a dood, but I was a model when I was younger and I got groped and grabbed by members of several different gender identities.

I also agree with Ginger, though, that this is completely out of proportion. Every single friend, of the male persuasion, that I've had through my life has done some stupid masher type of offense at one time or another.... and quite a few of my female friends. Every office has one or two or more. Is every male in the world going to be asked to step down because they were acting as socially inept clods at various times.

I agree that it hasn't gone far enough since the onset of the feminist revolution. Some of us took it seriously. I fought the fight with my staff in Hong Kong. I cured one or two people of the behavior but not as many as I'd have hoped. People are sexual animals and the dumb brutes that we are some can't control themselves. They've also been taught that this is the norm. This "it's a guy thing" attitude has to be changed. Throwing every sinner under the bus is not, though, the answer. We're taking a puritan approach to progressivism. Hell, we forgave Robert Stroud, many of us. Christians will forgive anyone, fer crissake as long as they get up at the rail and weep.

Franken's a good senator. Conyers was a good Congressman who may have over-stayed based on brand familiarity but I'm not doing a "let's tear down Mt. Rushmore" because a couple of them owned slaves when you balance the other things they did. Ain't doin' it to George and Tom and ain't doin' it to MLK, Franken or Conyers.

Unfortunately, as I said, Al's got to take one for the whole team. I doubt he's going to disappear, though. He'll either be back running for Senator or Governor or be grabbed up by television or radio or both. He was in huge demand when he was taking on the paleos in his books and his talk show appearances. Right now, a few people have to get it through their heads - their conservative, moderate, liberal or progressive heads - that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

kellyb 10th December 2017 04:12 AM

Quote:

Every single friend, of the male persuasion, that I've had through my life has done some stupid masher type of offense at one time or another.... and quite a few of my female friends.
NONE of my male friends are or have ever been gropers. Literally none. In school, it was non-friend dudes who groped me, and at work, it was work acquaintances I yelled at and tried to never even talk to again.

Perhaps I'm overly prudish about the social unacceptability of groping/aka, low grade sexual assault. ???

kellyb 10th December 2017 04:16 AM

Quote:

I'm a dood, but I was a model when I was younger and I got groped and grabbed by members of several different gender identities.
Don't you want to scream "no more" for the hamster you have as an avatar? (eta: I'm referencing when you joked back in the day about not being a parent, but had a hamster or gerbil as an avatar.)

bluesjnr 10th December 2017 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyb (Post 12108682)
NONE of my male friends are or have ever been gropers. Literally none.

Tell me, how do you know this?

kellyb 10th December 2017 04:25 AM

Quote:

Unfortunately, as I said, Al's got to take one for the whole team.
I just think he, if he's really a deeply moral person, like I want to believe he is, needs to take some time off from the public scene and figure out WHY he thought butt grabbing was ok, and later talk to fathers and mothers of children about patriarchy and, yes, "rape culture", and how all of us need to do our part to be better people. I know that sounds absurd, but I'm an idealist at heart.

kellyb 10th December 2017 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 12108684)
Tell me, how do you know this?

I have a very small, close-knit social circle. I mean, maybe there's a groper in the midst, but I can't imagine how they've escaped exposure.

Foolmewunz 10th December 2017 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyb (Post 12108688)
I just think he, if he's really a deeply moral person, like I want to believe he is, needs to take some time off from the public scene and figure out WHY he thought butt grabbing was ok, and later talk to fathers and mothers of children about patriarchy and, yes, "rape culture", and how all of us need to do our part to be better people. I know that sounds absurd, but I'm an idealist at heart.

The patriarchy is the root of the problem, but I know a whole lot of very forward-leaning people who were/are touchy/feely, filing the whole thing under H for hippie hedonism (as the button said, "If it feels good, do it!"). Apparently we moved in different circles. I'm mostly from big city counter-culture environments. From the beat generation on up, there are a whole lot of neanderthals in the Henry Miller model.

But please let's get rid of this rape culture extreme claim. I liken it to the cries of Bush/Obama/Trump is a fascist dictator. I live in a rape culture and under a military dictatorship. Both comparisons are dubious, at best and are pure rhetorical hyperbole. A male-dominated patriarchical society? Absolutely. "Rape culture"? Not by a longshot unless your simply using it as a metaphor. But since we're discussing sexual aggression and assault, I don't think we should go the whole nine yards. Spiro Agnew wasn't an armed bank robber - he was a penny ante grifter who was too stupid to stop. Roy Moore is not a paedophile; he's a kiddie diddler and possibly, legally, a rapist.

The guy in the hallway who always passes too close and manages to rub your butt nine times out of ten? He's a creep. An aggressive pig. Maybe even a molester. That's about it, though.

calebprime 10th December 2017 05:46 AM

yessir. like. very good post, not quite l. a.

kellyb 10th December 2017 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12108719)

But please let's get rid of this rape culture extreme claim.

Until just about a year ago, I also thought it was extremist hyperbolic hysterical language. I think I might have actually laughed out loud when I first encountered the term years ago.

Then the poop hit the fan with Cosby, and I saw a lot of people defending drugging women as totally normal and natural behavior.

And I listen to the audience laughing here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAorIG6MZnc

...and...that audience laughter. "Rape culture" just doesn't seem like such an extreme term to me at this point.

Skeptic Ginger 10th December 2017 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyb (Post 12108638)
Love your cutsie, condescending eyerolls. Bush Sr groping in a photo op and Franken groping in photo ops is the exact same thing.

Except in one case there is a picture and in the others there are none except the one picture that clearly shows no breast grope as was the accusation.

You are essentially saying because some men grope Franken's accusers must be truthful and not mistaken. Logic 101 fail.


The rest of your post is pure straw. When have I posted actual groping is no big deal? Inviting a woman to your hotel room and getting on the elevator a lone woman occupies are no big deal. Groping is a big deal. I don't see evidence Franken is a serial groper, I see some pretty flimsy accusations that in no way are equivalent to the more clear and corroborated sexual abuse the rest of the men have been accused of.

By the way, in virtually all the other cases reports have come out with some equivalent of "everyone knew". That is not the case with Franken.

Skeptic Ginger 10th December 2017 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyb (Post 12108642)
You call liars out as liars. This is not rocket surgery.

Which contains a false dichotomy, they might have been misperceiving Franken's photo hug. If he was not groping, that doesn't mean they perceived things the same way.

Suddenly the eye witnesses we know are not reliable become unquestionable.

Skeptic Ginger 10th December 2017 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12108673)
Is every male in the world going to be asked to step down because they were acting as socially inept clods at various times.
...

This is exactly what I've said in the elevator threads. It's taking the whole thing waaay too far when men are suddenly supposed to be asexual around women and vice versa.

kellyb 10th December 2017 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12109139)

By the way, in virtually all the other cases reports have come out with some equivalent of "everyone knew". That is not the case with Franken.

The "everybody knew" cases like Cosby and Weinstein is because those dudes are serial rapists, and yeah, people in those circles who hear about it are going to talk.

Something comparatively minor like a butt grab where you're left wondering "Did he really just grab my butt?" is not going to make the rounds in the rumor mill in the same way.

Do you think this article is, like, right wing propaganda?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ns-accusations

Skeptic Ginger 10th December 2017 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyb (Post 12109168)
The "everybody knew" cases like Cosby and Weinstein is because those dudes are serial rapists, and yeah, people in those circles who hear about it are going to talk.

Everyone knew Moore chased teenagers. Everyone knew Kevin Spacey assaulted teen boys. Everyone knew the Catholic priests were pedophiles. How many do I need to list?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyb (Post 12109168)
Something comparatively minor like a butt grab where you're left wondering "Did he really just grab my butt?" is not going to make the rounds in the rumor mill in the same way.

No, because it wasn't clear, maybe it was misperceived. Thousands of photos, where are even one or two showing Franken's hand groping?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyb (Post 12109168)
Do you think this article is, like, right wing propaganda?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ns-accusations

What is it in the article you wish to point out? There is nothing in the article I see that I haven't addressed. Perhaps you joined the thread late or like me, when posts were going fast, I didn't read every one of them.

xjx388 10th December 2017 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 12109142)
Which contains a false dichotomy, they might have been misperceiving Franken's photo hug. If he was not groping, that doesn't mean they perceived things the same way.



Suddenly the eye witnesses we know are not reliable become unquestionable.



A hand on your ass is not misinterpretable. A strangers hand does not belong on your ass. If it was mistakenly put there, it should be moved immediately and not linger and squeeze.

Maybe Iím wrong but Iím not going to test your hypothesis that placing my hand on a strangers ass can be perfectly innocent.

Skeptic Ginger 10th December 2017 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjx388 (Post 12109377)
A hand on your ass is not misinterpretable. A strangers hand does not belong on your ass. If it was mistakenly put there, it should be moved immediately and not linger and squeeze.

Maybe Iím wrong but Iím not going to test your hypothesis that placing my hand on a strangers ass can be perfectly innocent.

It does not surprise me that the forum right wingers who want Franken to be guilty can't imagine any case where a person misinterprets or has a false memory about a photo hug.

You cannot misinterpret some guy whipping out his penis, you can misinterpret where an arm is in a photo hug.

BTW, do you think the Moore accusers are liars?


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