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-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

Dr. Keith 4th January 2018 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12133695)
Discussing issues in the appropriate thread is indeed classy.

But taking different positions based on the topic of the thread is classic. As in classic lack of any guiding principle. Which is not at all a bad thing. In fact, it is predictable and comforting in this part of the forum.

Any word yet on how the replacement is likely to to differ from Franken on policy or impact?

ahhell 4th January 2018 12:45 PM

For whatever its worth, the claims against Franken are pretty similar to the claims against Trump, though there are a lot more against Trump.

Basically, they kissed women without asking and in inappropriate situations and grabbed some asses and boobs in similarly inappropriate conditions. Trump has two rape claims but one came during a divorce and has since been denied by the victim and the other was by an anomymous victim who says she was raped at a party when she was 13 and has since dropped the lawsuit.

Trumps admission to assault was pretty clearly bragging about what he could get away with rather than an actual admission of what he'd done. Makes him a douche but doesn't really show he's a criminal.

theprestige 4th January 2018 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12134723)
Trumps admission to assault was pretty clearly bragging about what he could get away with rather than an actual admission of what he'd done. Makes him a douche but doesn't really show he's a criminal.

Especially when you remember that Trump is a fabulist who lies all the time to try to impress people. What would impress men in Hollywood more than tall tales about harassing the talent?

pgwenthold 4th January 2018 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12134755)
Especially when you remember that Trump is a fabulist who lies all the time to try to impress people. What would impress men in Hollywood more than tall tales about harassing the talent?

"I moved on her like a bitch" does not sound like something that he merely "could" do, it is a statement of what he did.

ahhell 4th January 2018 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 12134820)
"I moved on her like a bitch" does not sound like something that he merely "could" do, it is a statement of what he did.

"I moved on her like a bitch. But I couldn’t get there."

Also, what does that even mean? I moved on her like a bitch? Like a dog I would get but bitch implies a feminity to the action that really doesn't make sense in the context.

His actual admission is:
Quote:

Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.
There's a lot wrong with that but it is basically what Franken is accused of.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/u...ranscript.html

johnny karate 4th January 2018 02:14 PM

There's also the numerous women who have accused Trump of doing the very things he bragged about...

theprestige 4th January 2018 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 12134820)
"I moved on her like a bitch" does not sound like something that he merely "could" do, it is a statement of what he did.

Sure. But is it a truthful statement?

One clear symptom of TDS is believing that Trump lies reflexively about everything... except the one thing the TDS sufferer has already decided must be true.

theprestige 4th January 2018 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12134843)
There's also the numerous women who have accused Trump of doing the very things he bragged about...

... Some of the things, anyway. But this is a thread about Al Franken, so let's try to bring it back around: The accusations against Trump were all public by 2016. The voters took stock of them, and rendered their judgement in November. I think Franken's constituents should have had the same opportunity. Even the ethics investigation was a red herring. And the resignation itself was purely a knee-jerk witch hunt with no real thought behind it at all.

The railroading of Franken was a little amusing in a Left-eating-their-own kind of way. But it was also depressing, as an indicator of where Democratic politicians are at these days. From the aggressive railroading itself, to the pathetic excuses and walk-backs afterwards... Just sad!

But it's also a good picture of what progressives would do to Trump, if they ever managed to get a toehold on him.

ahhell 4th January 2018 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12134843)
There's also the numerous women who have accused Trump of doing the very things he bragged about...

The irony is that I believe them more than him.

@prestige, I think Franken's resignation was a calculated move the Dems not a witchhunt. I think they just want to undercut the GOPs, "What about Franken" angle come the next election cycle. Franken will be replaced by a reliable Dem and come the election will see if it was a good move. Or atleast if they got rid of Franken and still not win many seats will know it was a waste.

WilliamSeger 4th January 2018 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12134868)
Sure. But is it a truthful statement?

One clear symptom of TDS is believing that Trump lies reflexively about everything... except the one thing the TDS sufferer has already decided must be true.

Ignoring that many women claim his behavior matched his boasting must also be a symptom of something.

Cleon 4th January 2018 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12134868)
Sure. But is it a truthful statement?

One clear symptom of TDS is believing that Trump lies reflexively about everything... except the one thing the TDS sufferer has already decided must be true.

What do you call it when you assume that everything he says that makes him look bad is a lie, and everything that makes him look good is Gospel Truth?

"TDS." Please.

ahhell 4th January 2018 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleon (Post 12134963)
What do you call it when you assume that everything he says that makes him look bad is a lie, and everything that makes him look good is Gospel Truth?

"TDS." Please.

Does he ever actually say anything that makes himself look good?

johnny karate 4th January 2018 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12134882)
... Some of the things, anyway. But this is a thread about Al Franken, so let's try to bring it back around: The accusations against Trump were all public by 2016. The voters took stock of them, and rendered their judgement in November. I think Franken's constituents should have had the same opportunity. Even the ethics investigation was a red herring. And the resignation itself was purely a knee-jerk witch hunt with no real thought behind it at all.

The railroading of Franken was a little amusing in a Left-eating-their-own kind of way. But it was also depressing, as an indicator of where Democratic politicians are at these days. From the aggressive railroading itself, to the pathetic excuses and walk-backs afterwards... Just sad!

But it's also a good picture of what progressives would do to Trump, if they ever managed to get a toehold on him.

Yes, he might actually be held to some kind of moral and ethical standards.

Oh, the horror.

Lurch 4th January 2018 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12135007)
Yes, he might actually be held to some kind of moral and ethical standards.

Oh, the horror.

And where Trump and Moore supporters might say the whole thing is a cynical, calculated ploy, it does not alter the fact that Franken paid a price, and that his ouster is nonetheless something of a gamble that does not guarantee an equally effective/popular replacement.

As opposed to the two first mentioned accused and their crowd of backers, who pretty much as a body cravenly shrug, deny, attack, distract and never admit to the slightest fragment of anything.

johnny karate 4th January 2018 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 12135060)
And where Trump and Moore supporters might say the whole thing is a cynical, calculated ploy, it does not alter the fact that Franken paid a price, and that his ouster is nonetheless something of a gamble that does not guarantee an equally effective/popular replacement.

As opposed to the two first mentioned accused and their crowd of backers, who pretty much as a body cravenly shrug, deny, attack, distract and never admit to the slightest fragment of anything.

Calling it a cynical and calculated is all they can say. It's literally their only play. Which is why we keep seeing it get trotted out.

tyr_13 4th January 2018 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12135079)
Calling it a cynical and calculated is all they can say. It's literally their only play. Which is why we keep seeing it get trotted out.

Remember, doing the right thing reflects badly on Democrats. This is even true when Republicans started to do something similar (but even easier) and then cravenly caved to a petty narcissists decree that they support the sleaze anyway.

The Republicans supported a man they themselves believed assaulted women (on top of being essentially an anti-Constitution theocrat) just because their boss told them too. This reflects badly on the Dems and proves they don't have the moral high ground for...reasons?

Foolmewunz 4th January 2018 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12134421)
A male "who would have welcomed the attention of a more appealing girl, the pawing and more by such a revolting creature was unsettling" saying he had it worse from a "loose" "revolting" woman than did numerous women had from a powerful man is a "cogent" point?

Why how dare those women moan about it, they were not a loose cigarette smoking slut like our correspondent had to endure, and all without "moaning" about it you see! Those women ought to zip their lips because Al Franken is one of the good ones!

How unbelievably ludicrous can you get?

Hilite 1 is a lie.
Hilite 2 is a lie.

He described an experience he had and his reaction to it and admitted to his own double standard. He never said he had it worse than those accusing Franken (or Trump or Moore... you know, those guys whose behavior you have no opinion on). He never said they should shut up. He said he still thinks Franken's worthy of support as these incidents rate up there in the same range of what he is describing. I've said much the same thing. When the sum total of the complaints is "He kissed me too aggressively when rehearsing, he took a clownish picture while I was asleep, he grabbed my butt...." Well, we can all decide just how dastardly immoral that is. Every male I know would have to quit their jobs if those are the standards.

Is Franken open to censure or vocal condemnation for being an old school ass-grabber and boor? I reckon so. But so was Bush Sr. and those of you hiding behind the mod box all said, if you said anything at all, "Hey, he's an old codger and was making an awkward joke." Or when Donnie Johnny behaves that way he's either a liar so you shouldn't believe him or it's "just locker room talk". Roy Moore? "Hey, it's Alabama. Girls marry young down there, it's nothing unusual." Seems no one's talking about Trump having to resign over his indiscretions and no one's taking any awards away from Bush Sr. Only a few courageous Republicans pulled support away from Moore. But Franken? OMG, it's reprehensible! He has to resign and join a monastery in Bhutan and never be seen or heard from again. Won't somebody think of the wimminz!

quadraginta 4th January 2018 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12134884)
The irony is that I believe them more than him.

@prestige, I think Franken's resignation was a calculated move the Dems not a witchhunt. I think they just want to undercut the GOPs, "What about Franken" angle come the next election cycle. Franken will be replaced by a reliable Dem and come the election will see if it was a good move. Or atleast if they got rid of Franken and still not win many seats will know it was a waste.


Trying to get GOP voters to think twice about the hypocritical, despicable behavior of GOP politicians is always a waste.

They really just don't care. When their guys do it that means it's okay.

The Big Dog 4th January 2018 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12135230)
Hilite 1 is a lie.
Hilite 2 is a lie.

He described an experience he had and his reaction to it and admitted to his own double standard. He never said he had it worse than those accusing Franken (or Trump or Moore... you know, those guys whose behavior you have no opinion on). He never said they should shut up. He said he still thinks Franken's worthy of support as these incidents rate up there in the same range of what he is describing. I've said much the same thing. When the sum total of the complaints is "He kissed me too aggressively when rehearsing, he took a clownish picture while I was asleep, he grabbed my butt...." Well, we can all decide just how dastardly immoral that is. Every male I know would have to quit their jobs if those are the standards.

Is Franken open to censure or vocal condemnation for being an old school ass-grabber and boor? I reckon so. But so was Bush Sr. and those of you hiding behind the mod box all said, if you said anything at all, "Hey, he's an old codger and was making an awkward joke." Or when Donnie Johnny behaves that way he's either a liar so you shouldn't believe him or it's "just locker room talk". Roy Moore? "Hey, it's Alabama. Girls marry young down there, it's nothing unusual." Seems no one's talking about Trump having to resign over his indiscretions and no one's taking any awards away from Bush Sr. Only a few courageous Republicans pulled support away from Moore. But Franken? OMG, it's reprehensible! He has to resign and join a monastery in Bhutan and never be seen or heard from again. Won't somebody think of the wimminz!

:rolleyes:

Foolmewunz 4th January 2018 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12135271)
:rolleyes:

Whatsamatter? Cat got the big dog's tongue? What are the sarcastic rolling eyes for?

You lied twice about what another poster actually said and hoped you'd get away with it?
You have no intention of addressing similar complaint against Republicans, hallowed be their names?
You are speechless because your subscription to My Thesaurus ran out?
When cornered you always revert to argument by smiley or argument by catchphrase?

ahhell 5th January 2018 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12135249)
Trying to get GOP voters to think twice about the hypocritical, despicable behavior of GOP politicians is always a waste.

They really just don't care. When their guys do it that means it's okay.

Moore lost in one of the redest states out there. Enough care that it can effect elections. Most voters will never vote for the other party but they will stay home if they're sufficiently disappointed in their own candidate/party.

And frankly, I think dems are also hypocrits on sexual harassment. They let Bill get away with it, they'd let Franken get away with but its good politics to have him resign. Look at this thread. Franken would get reelected if he ran again.

The Big Dog 5th January 2018 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12135285)
Whatsamatter? Cat got the big dog's tongue? What are the sarcastic rolling eyes for?

You lied twice about what another poster actually said and hoped you'd get away with it?
You have no intention of addressing similar complaint against Republicans, hallowed be their names?
You are speechless because your subscription to My Thesaurus ran out?
When cornered you always revert to argument by smiley or argument by catchphrase?

I “hoped i’d Get away with it folks” but fortunately we have avid posters who are willing to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of lying, despite the fact that they obviously were not.

Love the desperate pivot to bu-bu-but Moore! Rather than, you know, backing up the ridiculous point that the unbelievably misogynistic tale made a “cogent” point.

Lolz

applecorped 5th January 2018 07:31 AM

People are still bringing up Moore in the Al Franken thread?



It happens

Foolmewunz 5th January 2018 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12135571)
I “hoped i’d Get away with it folks” but fortunately we have avid posters who are willing to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of lying, despite the fact that they obviously were not.

Love the desperate pivot to bu-bu-but Moore! Rather than, you know, backing up the ridiculous point that the unbelievably misogynistic tale made a “cogent” point.

Lolz

Well, let's demonstrate for the class, shall we. I hope you''ve restocked your supply of emoticons and pithy faux condescending hand waves.

Oh, dear!


Here's what he said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 12133848)
Ya know, I was sexually assaulted several times in my late teens, when I was still a virgin. An acquaintance of the family, a couple years older than me, was notorious for her 'looseness'. She got around--a LOT--and the various sores and other skin blemishes I naively thought to be the manifestations of various and sundry STDs. And that she smoked was only another factor that rendered her as distasteful.

For some reason she got it into her head that my refusal to yield to her less than subtle 'advances' was the issuance of a challenge. She'd chase me down in the house and occasionally corner me. I was a scrawny beanpole in those days, all ribs, kneecaps and shoulder blades. She was of stout stock, and the combination of her strength and my desire to not hurt her meant it was tough to keep her hands from worming their way down into my pants. But I'd struggle free successfully enough before she got to grips, if you know what I mean.

Late one night I was walking her home, because she'd expressed some worry about safety. Part of the way along she suddenly grabbed me and planted a sloppy, tongue-jamming kiss, all cigarette ashtray like. Geez, I can still so easily recall the ghastly experience, which was back in '80 or '81. I still did the honorable thing and walked her the crest of the way home.

That was the last time she got near enough to touch me again...

By today's definition these acts constitute sexual assault, because I made it abundantly clear there was no interest in reciprocation from me. Even though I was a hormone-addled 18 year old virgin who would have welcomed the attention of a more appealing girl, the pawing and more by such a revolting creature was unsettling. Do I moan about it, and demand redress? Naw, it's far behind me, and thankfully I didn't contract some nasty disease.

Franken's actions, as I view them in the light of some experience, hardly constitute acts that demand the termination of his career. The USNO kiss is the worst that I'm aware of, but it was after all in the context of a practice for a skit, not some complete surprise 'attack' like the one I endured. And hands that might slide a little low down on a hip (over clothing) constitutes a soul-shattering violation?

I still respect Franken, in no small measure for his instinct to immediately acknowledge the complaints and offer himself unreservedly to an ethics investigation, and for not denying and attacking the accusers and invoking his godly ways.

A person (man or women) can be given to acting somewhat on impulse when attracted to someone without it making them a monster. I would have liked to see what an ethics investigation would have returned.

Here's what you mis-characterized him as saying. It should be real simple for such a devotee of reading between lines to get hidden meanings to show the class just where you got the notion that he was saying what you claim.


Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12134421)
A male "who would have welcomed the attention of a more appealing girl, the pawing and more by such a revolting creature was unsettling" saying he had it worse from a "loose" "revolting" woman than did numerous women had from a powerful man is a "cogent" point?

Why how dare those women moan about it, they were not a loose cigarette smoking slut like our correspondent had to endure, and all without "moaning" about it you see! Those women ought to zip their lips because Al Franken is one of the good ones!

How unbelievably ludicrous can you get?

We're all quite up on your trick of tucking Non-Quotes in the middle of quotes. It makes it look like the original poster stated the words you are attributing to him.

I stand by my post responding to yours, particularly the first two lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12135230)
Hilite 1 is a lie.
Hilite 2 is a lie.

He described an experience he had and his reaction to it and admitted to his own double standard. He never said he had it worse than those accusing Franken (or Trump or Moore... you know, those guys whose behavior you have no opinion on). He never said they should shut up. He said he still thinks Franken's worthy of support as these incidents rate up there in the same range of what he is describing. I've said much the same thing. When the sum total of the complaints is "He kissed me too aggressively when rehearsing, he took a clownish picture while I was asleep, he grabbed my butt...." Well, we can all decide just how dastardly immoral that is. Every male I know would have to quit their jobs if those are the standards.

Is Franken open to censure or vocal condemnation for being an old school ass-grabber and boor? I reckon so. But so was Bush Sr. and those of you hiding behind the mod box all said, if you said anything at all, "Hey, he's an old codger and was making an awkward joke." Or when Donnie Johnny behaves that way he's either a liar so you shouldn't believe him or it's "just locker room talk". Roy Moore? "Hey, it's Alabama. Girls marry young down there, it's nothing unusual." Seems no one's talking about Trump having to resign over his indiscretions and no one's taking any awards away from Bush Sr. Only a few courageous Republicans pulled support away from Moore. But Franken? OMG, it's reprehensible! He has to resign and join a monastery in Bhutan and never be seen or heard from again. Won't somebody think of the wimminz!

I eagerly await your apology for lying. (Say didn't Al write a book about that?)

applecorped 5th January 2018 07:39 AM

Lolz

Porpoise of Life 5th January 2018 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12135583)
I eagerly await your apology for lying. (Say didn't Al write a book about that?)

I would advise not holding one's breath...

Cleon 5th January 2018 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12135249)
Trying to get GOP voters to think twice about the hypocritical, despicable behavior of GOP politicians is always a waste.

They really just don't care. When their guys do it that means it's okay.

I keep hoping to see some evidence that you're wrong.

I keep hoping to win Powerball, too.

The Big Dog 5th January 2018 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz (Post 12135583)
Well, let's demonstrate for the class, shall we. I hope you''ve restocked your supply of emoticons and pithy faux condescending hand waves.

Oh, dear!


Here's what he said.


ere's what you mis-characterized him as saying. It should be real simple for such a devotee of reading between lines to get hidden meanings to show the class just where you got the notion that he was saying what you claim.




We're all quite up on your trick of tucking Non-Quotes in the middle of quotes. It makes it look like the original poster stated the words you are attributing to him.

I stand by my post responding to yours, particularly the first two lines.



I eagerly await your apology for lying. (Say didn't Al write a book about that?)

Well one is obviously waiting in vain for you to, you know, actually address the substance of the thread....

but no matter...

claim; "saying he had it worse from a "loose" "revolting" woman than did numerous women had from a powerful man is a "cogent" point?"

(note folks that our correspondent and avid accuser of people telling lies does not even address the misogynistic as all hell "loose" and "revolting" part because of course he doesn't :rolleyes:)

No folks our correspondent is deeply troubled (deeply I say)by my assertion that our tale teller claimed to have had it worse, and indeed accuses me of telling a lie about it...

Huh, lets check it out:

"The USNO kiss is the worst that I'm aware of, but it was after all in the context of a practice for a skit, not some complete surprise 'attack' like the one I endured. And hands that might slide a little low down on a hip (over clothing) constitutes a soul-shattering violation?"

Now ya see folks the tongue banging was the worst but "after all" it was in the context of a skit and "not some complete surprise 'attack' like the one I endured."

There you have it folks, after all it wasn't an attack like he "endured" from a loose revolting women, and for me saying that he claimed it was worse than what the women suffered I get attacked and accused of lying.

I guess that is easier than facing up to the unbelievable misogyny running rampant through Franken's apologists, huh folks?

mic drop

Foolmewunz 5th January 2018 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12135662)
Well one is obviously waiting in vain for you to, you know, actually address the substance of the thread....

but no matter...

claim; "saying he had it worse from a "loose" "revolting" woman than did numerous women had from a powerful man is a "cogent" point?"

(note folks that our correspondent and avid accuser of people telling lies does not even address the misogynistic as all hell "loose" and "revolting" part because of course he doesn't :rolleyes:)

No folks our correspondent is deeply troubled (deeply I say)by my assertion that our tale teller claimed to have had it worse, and indeed accuses me of telling a lie about it...

Huh, lets check it out:

"The USNO kiss is the worst that I'm aware of, but it was after all in the context of a practice for a skit, not some complete surprise 'attack' like the one I endured. And hands that might slide a little low down on a hip (over clothing) constitutes a soul-shattering violation?"

Now ya see folks the tongue banging was the worst but "after all" it was in the context of a skit and "not some complete surprise 'attack' like the one I endured."

There you have it folks, after all it wasn't an attack like he "endured" from a loose revolting women, and for me saying that he claimed it was worse than what the women suffered I get attacked and accused of lying.

I guess that is easier than facing up to the unbelievable misogyny running rampant through Franken's apologists, huh folks?

mic drop

This will amaze you (I'm sure you have an emoji for that) but I'll cede you the first wasn't a lie. Misinterpretation? Maybe just simply a different interpretation. But I can see how one would see that, so I'll concede on that.
(See? That's what grown ups do.)

As to me (moi?) addressing the substance of the thread? I have done so repeatedly. I've also addressed the topic of the thread far better than you have. See post 1945, a post so coherent and on-topic that it deserves to be an actual launching point in SI&CE for a discussion of what extent liberals and progressives want to take the current Witch Hunting/Hunger Games. But that's the adult discussion. You're not interested in that one. You're interested in the substance of THIS thread, which is "Neener neener neener lib-a-rull in trou-ble!"

It's all about the pearl clutching.

Shalamar 5th January 2018 09:50 AM

I’d like to thank the conservatives on the boards for pointing out that sexual
Assault is only bad when a liberal does it. When a conservative or trump does it, It’s a-ok.

johnny karate 5th January 2018 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12135532)
And frankly, I think dems are also hypocrits on sexual harassment. They let Bill get away with it, they'd let Franken get away with but its good politics to have him resign. Look at this thread. Franken would get reelected if he ran again.

Bill Clinton hasn't held a political office in almost two decades. And your assessment of how the Democrats dealt with Franken is based on nothing more than bias and cynicism, because you have no way to know that's true.

And even if your assessment is correct, doing the right for the wrong reason is still better than not doing the right thing at all.

theprestige 5th January 2018 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12135805)
Bill Clinton hasn't held a political office in almost two decades. And your assessment of how the Democrats dealt with Franken is based on nothing more than bias and cynicism, because you have no way to know that's true.

And even if your assessment is correct, doing the right for the wrong reason is still better than not doing the right thing at all.

I think Franken's resignation is more a case of doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Except it isn't really the right reason, either.

But okay, how about this: johnny karate, if you were given the opportunity, would you vote to re-elect Al Franken?

ahhell 5th January 2018 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12135805)
Bill Clinton hasn't held a political office in almost two decades. And your assessment of how the Democrats dealt with Franken is based on nothing more than bias and cynicism, because you have no way to know that's true.

I have to admit it is like just my opinion man. I mention Clinton because he's the obvious parallel to Trump and being a sexual predator didn't matter to most dems then so I really have no reason to think it would be different now except that its advantageous for the dems to sacrifice a few knights and bishops for the chance at running the board in the next election. Past performance isn't always indicative of current actions but it is indicative of something.


Quote:

And even if your assessment is correct, doing the right for the wrong reason is still better than not doing the right thing at all.
I don't disagree. We will only no for sure if in four years if the Dem nominee is accused of similar behavior, until then we have a pretty limited selection of presidents to compare.

Both Dems and Reps colluded to cover up charges of harassment against their fellow congressmen for years and we've only recently heard about their secret system to pay off accusers and sweep accusations under the rug.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/19/u...-congress.html

I think its naive bias on the part of folks that think the Dems are significantly better on this issue for reasons other than partisan advantage. History indicates otherwise. They may have had some kind of road to damascus moment regarding harassment, I suppose. They are better but not by much, on this issue anyway.

In summary, historically, neither Dems nor Reps have particularly cared about sex scandals of candidates for their party unless there was a more prominent politician of the opposite party involved in a similar scandal.

Dr. Keith 5th January 2018 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12135823)
I think Franken's resignation is more a case of doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Except it isn't really the right reason, either.

I agree with you that this should be up to the voters, whether it is Franken, Moore or Trump. Franken decided to not wait for that input officially, but I assume he received some feedback from his constituents. He could have stuck it out and waited for a full investigation if he wanted to. He could have continued to serve and sought re-election if he wanted to. I just don't think he wanted to. I think he has a better handle on what his constituents wanted than I do, so I'll respect that decision unless I hear that they really wanted him to stay.

Quote:

But okay, how about this: johnny karate, if you were given the opportunity, would you vote to re-elect Al Franken?
In the primary, no. And yes, I assume he would have faced a challenger in the primary.

In an election, yes. Assuming the other option was someone who feels that "lock her up" and "build the wall" are good ways to MAGA. But then I'm not intimately familiar with who his challengers would have been, so yeah, assumptions.

Dr. Keith 5th January 2018 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12135871)
In summary, historically, neither Dems nor Reps have particularly cared about sex scandals of candidates for their party unless there was a more prominent politician of the opposite party involved in a similar scandal.

If the Dems make a concerted effort to not continue this history do you think that would be good for the party or bad?

ahhell 5th January 2018 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith (Post 12135989)
If the Dems make a concerted effort to not continue this history do you think that would be good for the party or bad?

I think it will be good for the party and good for society. I think they will and I hope eventually the GOP will to. Moore loosing the election may push even the GOP in the right direction on that score.

Lurch 5th January 2018 01:50 PM

I didn't imagine my previous post would engender a bit of an extended argument. I thought it was just a little anchor point upon which to hang perspective. Perhaps some clarification is in order, to hopefully disabuse of the notion of its "unbelievably misogynistic" tone.

I pointed out the "looseness" of the girl only to emphasize her well-known proclivity to sleep around. In order to get across some notion of the more common situation when the genders are reversed; horn dog guys are more often the ones badgering the girls.

If comedians and actors are in the position of performing a kiss, that implies at least a not complete revulsion against the other performer. There is an implied willingness to grant that level of intimacy. This to me is in another class from a kiss stolen where clearly not invited nor in the least desired. In my case there was the vileness of a smoker who I feared to be disease-ridden. Tweeden getting a bit of tongue in what was expected to involve just lips is hardly as "shocking" as enduring a sloppy frenchie completely out of the blue from someone who has been told in no uncertain terms that zero interest is returned.

My willingness to respond to a less loathsome girl does not imply that I would abandon chivalrous principle. Less than a year after the events I described, the youngest sister of the wife of a half-uncle (complicated family structure!) expressed great interest in me. All folk encouraged that I reciprocate. This girl was most attractive and appealing. But she was only 13 and I 19 (and still a virgin, until age 22). I felt that the age disparity was too large for comfort. And so I suggested to wait at least a few years. I moved away not too long after, and saw her on a home visit when she was 18. Boy, 9 outta 10 guys would do like in the old cartoons, or better yet like Jim Carrey in "The Mask" (I should think just about everyone has seen that flick.) She was involved with someone, and I was in no position to even try to get something started given my working up in the Arctic. But if circumstances had permitted, I'd have been most keen to see where things might lead.

johnny karate 5th January 2018 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12135823)
I think Franken's resignation is more a case of doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Except it isn't really the right reason, either.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I will give it every bit of consideration it deserves.

Quote:

But okay, how about this: johnny karate, if you were given the opportunity, would you vote to re-elect Al Franken?
I would not. Feel free to peruse the early stages of this thread for contemporaneous confirmation of my feelings on Franken.

johnny karate 5th January 2018 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 12135871)
I have to admit it is like just my opinion man. I mention Clinton because he's the obvious parallel to Trump and being a sexual predator didn't matter to most dems then so I really have no reason to think it would be different now except that its advantageous for the dems to sacrifice a few knights and bishops for the chance at running the board in the next election. Past performance isn't always indicative of current actions but it is indicative of something.


I don't disagree. We will only no for sure if in four years if the Dem nominee is accused of similar behavior, until then we have a pretty limited selection of presidents to compare.

Both Dems and Reps colluded to cover up charges of harassment against their fellow congressmen for years and we've only recently heard about their secret system to pay off accusers and sweep accusations under the rug.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/19/u...-congress.html

I think its naive bias on the part of folks that think the Dems are significantly better on this issue for reasons other than partisan advantage. History indicates otherwise. They may have had some kind of road to damascus moment regarding harassment, I suppose. They are better but not by much, on this issue anyway.

In summary, historically, neither Dems nor Reps have particularly cared about sex scandals of candidates for their party unless there was a more prominent politician of the opposite party involved in a similar scandal.

Correction: Republicans continue not to care. Democrats are actually taking action.

ahhell 5th January 2018 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12136182)
Correction: Republicans continue not to care. Democrats are actually taking action.

Pure coincidence that they start taking action when its politically advantageous to do so.


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