International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   Social Issues & Current Events (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82)
-   -   Merged: Alec Baldwin fatally shoots crewmember on set of movie with prop gun (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354945)

Jim_MDP 21st October 2021 10:34 PM

Alec Baldwin fatally shoots crewmember on set of movie with prop gun
 
She's dead, and somehow the director was hit as well. Treated and released I believe. Whoops, no .. guess he's still in hospital.
Pretty much no details just yet. Freakin' stunning.


.

Sorry... DP is director of photography.

arthwollipot 21st October 2021 10:42 PM

Yeah, lots of things about this situation we don't know yet. I would caution against idle speculation.

Jim_MDP 21st October 2021 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 13635770)
Yeah, lots of things about this situation we don't know yet. I would caution against idle speculation.

Yeah, even one hour old articles are without details (it happened about 8 hours ago). Seems it's a pretty tight lid for now.

It's such a rarity now, after a few incidents 10, 20 years ago (Brandon Lee being one high profile case) I'm just a bit stunned it would happen on what I presume is a big budget production.

Travis 21st October 2021 10:58 PM

Considering how much we love guns in movies I'm shocked we don't have more accidents. I guess that proves what consistent safety culture can do.

angrysoba 21st October 2021 11:36 PM

Quote:

“I’m so sad about losing Halyna. And so infuriated that this could happen on a set,” said Archenemy director Adam Egypt Mortimer on Twitter. “She was a brilliant talent who was absolutely committed to art and to film.”
It introduces him as an archenemy but of whom?

angrysoba 21st October 2021 11:39 PM

By the way, I want to be the first to say that Donald Trump is a real ******* for what he will think about this when he wakes up.

arthwollipot 21st October 2021 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis (Post 13635775)
Considering how much we love guns in movies I'm shocked we don't have more accidents. I guess that proves what consistent safety culture can do.

That's exactly the point. Hollywood has a long history of producing gun-heavy movies where no-one gets accidentally shot in production. What happened that this suddenly went so badly?

They're reporting that it was a "prop gun" firing blanks. Can anyone shed light on what the differences are between a prop gun and a real one?

rockinkt 22nd October 2021 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 13635790)
That's exactly the point. Hollywood has a long history of producing gun-heavy movies where no-one gets accidentally shot in production. What happened that this suddenly went so badly?

They're reporting that it was a "prop gun" firing blanks. Can anyone shed light on what the differences are between a prop gun and a real one?

Prop guns are guns that look real but can only fire blanks.
Real guns are real guns and can fire real bullets and blanks.

Some blank ammunition has either paper, felt, or plastic wadding holding the powder charge behind it. When the powder charge goes off - sufficient build up of propellent gasses can propel the wadding out of the barrel at a high rate of speed for a short distance. That is why at close range these type of blanks can be deadly.

Edit: I would suggest that Baldwin was being asked to shoot a tight in to the camera scene where he would be pointing the gun right at the camera lens or slightly off to one side. The director and DP were probably right behind the camera or on their monitors very close by trying to size up and frame the shot.
These types of shots are dangerous and should never be done with the actual firearm - prop or real - during set-up. A wooden or plastic fake gun that has zero capability of firing anything should be used. .
Only after set up should the actor have the firearm and the camera should be remotely operated and all crew safely to the side or behind.

There should have been at least three people on that set whose only job was to ensure nothing like this happened. The Stunt Coordinator, The Armourer, and the Safety Officer.

Baldwin himself is a veteran of movies involving firearms. He would have been told and trained about proper procedures regarding firearm safety numerous times. The poor man is probably horrified at what happened; However, barring equipment failure, he is the one who ultimately pulled the trigger when the barrel was pointed in an unsafe direction and that is on him.

Terrible accident - but I strongly suggest it would have been highly preventable had proper procedures been followed.

Sherkeu 22nd October 2021 12:51 AM

From the Daily Beast:


Quote:

Halyna Hutchins, 42, was airlifted from the set of Rust, which began filming at Bonanza Creek Ranch south of Santa Fe this month, mid-afternoon to the University of New Mexico Hospital in Albuquerque, where she succumbed to her injuries.

Baldwin also hit the film’s director, Joel Souza, 48, according to the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office. Souza remains in intensive care. The sheriff said in a statement the two “were shot when a prop firearm was discharged by Alec Baldwin... producer and actor.” Baldwin, 63, reportedly did not know the prop contained live rounds.

...but the same article later says...

Quote:

Director James Cullen Bressack commented, “I will miss you my friend.” He elaborated to The Daily Beast, “I will never have blanks on my sets ever again.
Blanks are not totally benign but one dead and one injured that are not actors is an odd situation.

The Fool 22nd October 2021 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherkeu (Post 13635806)
From the Daily Beast:





...but the same article later says...



Blanks are not totally benign but one dead and one injured that are not actors is an odd situation.

Blanks can be deadly….in the army we had blank firing adaptors that blocked most of the barrel to provide the back pressure needed to cycle the weapon. Blanks fired without these suppressors could do serious damage out to a couple of meters.

Puppycow 22nd October 2021 03:47 AM

I heard a rumor that the production didn’t use union crews

SuburbanTurkey 22nd October 2021 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 13635790)
That's exactly the point. Hollywood has a long history of producing gun-heavy movies where no-one gets accidentally shot in production. What happened that this suddenly went so badly?



They're reporting that it was a "prop gun" firing blanks. Can anyone shed light on what the differences are between a prop gun and a real one?

There's a good interview with a Hollywood prop company guy on forgotten weapons where they discuss the various considerations that goes into building prop guns

https://youtu.be/GnOUrRTf6jg

In addition to modifying the firearm so that blank ammo can cycle the gun without the normal back pressure provided by a bullet squeezing down the barrel, there's also cosmetic concerns like intensifying muzzle flash for dramatic effect.

Most of these guns end up having some sort of restrictor installed in the muzzle and modifications to the mechanical locking mechanisms to make them cycle with blanks.

Even without a bullet there's still tremendous kinetic energy in the form of gas pressure coming out the muzzle end.

The Fool 22nd October 2021 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13635899)
There's a good interview with a Hollywood prop company guy on forgotten weapons where they discuss the various considerations that goes into building prop guns

https://youtu.be/GnOUrRTf6jg

In addition to modifying the firearm so that blank ammo can cycle the gun without the normal back pressure provided by a bullet squeezing down the barrel, there's also cosmetic concerns like intensifying muzzle flash for dramatic effect.

Most of these guns end up having some sort of restrictor installed in the muzzle and modifications to the mechanical locking mechanisms to make them cycle with blanks.

Even without a bullet there's still tremendous kinetic energy in the form of gas pressure coming out the muzzle end.

If it was a cheap and nasty modified gun maybe the blank blew the plug out of the barrel?

The Fool 22nd October 2021 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13635899)
There's a good interview with a Hollywood prop company guy on forgotten weapons where they discuss the various considerations that goes into building prop guns

https://youtu.be/GnOUrRTf6jg

In addition to modifying the firearm so that blank ammo can cycle the gun without the normal back pressure provided by a bullet squeezing down the barrel, there's also cosmetic concerns like intensifying muzzle flash for dramatic effect.

Most of these guns end up having some sort of restrictor installed in the muzzle and modifications to the mechanical locking mechanisms to make them cycle with blanks.

Even without a bullet there's still tremendous kinetic energy in the form of gas pressure coming out the muzzle end.

If it was a cheap and nasty modified gun maybe the blank blew the plug out of the barrel?

SuburbanTurkey 22nd October 2021 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fool (Post 13635909)
If it was a cheap and nasty modified gun maybe the blank blew the plug out of the barrel?

Careless handling seems a more likely culprit than an equipment failure

JoeMorgue 22nd October 2021 05:10 AM

Alec Baldwin fatally shoots crewmember on set of movie with prop gun
 
Director of photography killed, movie director injured after Alec Baldwin discharged prop firearm on movie set

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/21/enter...ent/index.html

Quote:

(CNN) - A film crew member has died and another was injured after actor Alec Baldwin discharged a prop firearm on the set of the movie "Rust" in New Mexico on Thursday, according to a law enforcement statement provided to CNN.

Director of photography Halyna Hutchins, 42, was transported to the hospital via helicopter and pronounced dead by medical personnel at University of New Mexico Hospital, according to the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office.

Director Joel Souza, 48, was transported to Christus St. Vincent's Regional Medical Center by ambulance for care. Details on his condition were not released.

Warp12 22nd October 2021 05:18 AM

This is horrible. I mean, aside from the dead woman, I can't even imagine the emotional toll this will have on Baldwin. Forget about career implications.

The hate and clowning he is going to get over this will be legendary. Just the memes alone will be devastating.

RecoveringYuppy 22nd October 2021 05:43 AM

What is the value of using blanks rather than fully fake guns? Do they give a realistic recoil? It would seem the sound would be easy to dub in.

JoeMorgue 22nd October 2021 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13635942)
What is the value of using blanks rather than fully fake guns? Do they give a realistic recoil? It would seem the sound would be easy to dub in.

At this point very little.

Robert Rodriguez shot the entire film Once Upon A Time In Mexico (which is pretty much one movie length shootout and didn't have a huge budget) without bringing a single real gun in Mexico for filming, usually only totally static prop guns that didn't fire in any manner, and the only problem he had was reminding Antonio Banderas to stop making "pew pew" sounds while filming.

The muzzle flashes, bullet impacts, even blood splatter where all added in later digitally.

Armitage72 22nd October 2021 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fool (Post 13635837)
Blanks can be deadly….in the army we had blank firing adaptors that blocked most of the barrel to provide the back pressure needed to cycle the weapon. Blanks fired without these suppressors could do serious damage out to a couple of meters.


Jon-Erik Hexum (Voyagers, Cover Up) died on set in 1984 after fooling around with a prop gun loaded with blanks and shooting himself in the head.

SuburbanTurkey 22nd October 2021 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13635943)
At this point very little.



Robert Rodriguez shot the entire film Once Upon A Time In Mexico (which is pretty much one movie length shootout and didn't have a huge budget) without bringing a single real gun in Mexico for filming, usually only totally static prop guns that didn't fire in any manner, and the only problem he had was reminding Antonio Banderas to stop making "pew pew" sounds while filming.



The muzzle flashes, bullet impacts, even blood splatter where all added in later digitally.

Flip side of that is movies like "heat" with the iconic heist shootout scene featuring rifles with insanely huge muzzle flash. I could see why a director or whatever would want the real thing.

Adding in post is certainly an option, I wonder how expensive it is to do it well vs using a blank gun.

I've definitely seen some bad cgi gun effects before, but that was probably more a budget decision than any real limitation of the craft

carlosy 22nd October 2021 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13635942)
What is the value of using blanks rather than fully fake guns? Do they give a realistic recoil? It would seem the sound would be easy to dub in.

I guess the recoil effect is probably the most important reason.
Especially for those scenes in super slowmo and where the actor doesn't wear long sleeves.

The body and muscle reaction to a real recoil is probably hard to fake in afterwards. And the actor only faking the recoil would not be good enough in such scenes.

I think it just looks more real because it has a real impact on the body.

Hlafordlaes 22nd October 2021 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13635924)
This is horrible. I mean, aside from the dead woman, I can't even imagine the emotional toll this will have on Baldwin.

My thoughts as well.

Monza 22nd October 2021 06:19 AM

They make adapters for guns that use a CO2 cartridge to recycle the gun. It is used for dry firing practice at home. I think the technology is here to make realistic prop guns that recoil and recycle without ever having to use blanks on a set. As people here have pointed out, blanks can be deadly. I can see some new laws in the filming industry coming out after this tragedy.

Steve 22nd October 2021 06:20 AM

"Guns don't kill people...... " well, you all know.

JoeMorgue 22nd October 2021 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13635956)
Flip side of that is movies like "heat" with the iconic heist shootout scene featuring rifles with insanely huge muzzle flash. I could see why a director or whatever would want the real thing.

Yeah but Heat was released in 1995 so you had to be more "analog" if you wanted super-realistic weapon scenes.

Not so much in 2021.

SuburbanTurkey 22nd October 2021 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13635983)
Yeah but Heat was released in 1995 so you had to be more "analog" if you wanted super-realistic weapon scenes.



Not so much in 2021.

An incident like this probably ought to be something that changes industry practices, but it's Hollywood so I'm not holding my breath.

JoeMorgue 22nd October 2021 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis (Post 13635775)
Considering how much we love guns in movies I'm shocked we don't have more accidents. I guess that proves what consistent safety culture can do.

This is also true. This incident, the Jon-Erik Hexum incident, and the Brandon Lee incident are the only deaths (I am aware of) of this nature spread over almost 40 years and countless gun scenes.

Also the Jon-Erik Hexum and Brandon Lee incidents were functionally very different accidents to the point that a "fix" for one probably wouldn't have prevented the other. We'll see about the current incident as more details become available.

I mean how many stunt person/drivers/pilots have been killed in the same time period?

casebro 22nd October 2021 06:43 AM

First hand experience, I've handled and even live fired some of the actual guns used in Hollywood. But I declined to participate in activities that included firing real guns at real people, in spite of using blanks. Live guns are a hoot though, I even had a live 30 Browning mounted on my pick up truck.

Blanks don't use any wadding anymore. They use a star crimp like a shotgun shell. Dunno what they get stuffed with to make effects- magnesium makes a flash, various gun powders for smoke. But it takes ejecta to make recoil. The gunpowder is about 25% of the recoil of a 30-06. I wonder if the blast didn't explode the camera?

Thermal 22nd October 2021 06:50 AM

With as comically unrealistic as most of Hollywood is, not clear on why guns have to be so realistic. Its not like 80% of the viewers would know, and the other 20% would care.

If realism is so crucial to filmmaking, stop hooking up Adam Sandler with Jennifer Anniston.

angrysoba 22nd October 2021 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thermal (Post 13636004)

If realism is so crucial to filmmaking, stop hooking up Adam Sandler with Jennifer Anniston.

I know, right! With his kind of money he could definitely afford someone younger.

Dumb All Over 22nd October 2021 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warp12 (Post 13635924)
This is horrible. I mean, aside from the dead woman, I can't even imagine the emotional toll this will have on Baldwin.

Unless, of course, it was his intention all along to kill her.

Bikewer 22nd October 2021 07:20 AM

Increasingly, Hollywood is using CGI effects for firearms. This is virtually necessary for scenes where someone is “shot” at very close range as in the John Wick films.

Well done, it looks and sounds good. Poorly done, it’s really unrealistic… You see this a lot on TV shows where they’re obviously pressed for time and money. Several episodes of the “Walker” TV series were particularly bad in this regard… The “muzzle flashes” weren’t even properly aligned with the weapon.

But for some scenes, and some kinds of weapons, using blank-firing weapons is virtually necessary.

The “Dick Tracy” movie some years back had a bit of trivia…. The Director wanted that final big shootout scene to be entirely lit with the muzzle flashes of the “tommy guns” used by the good guys.
The company that supplied the Thompsons developed a particularly-bright blank powder to enable the scene to be shot.

plague311 22nd October 2021 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over (Post 13636018)
Unless, of course, it was his intention all along to kill her.

Baldwin is an absolute genius if he wanted her dead and he was able to go through this massive elaborate scheme to pull it off. I'd be shocked.

Dumb All Over 22nd October 2021 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13636035)
Baldwin is an absolute genius if he wanted her dead and he was able to go through this massive elaborate scheme to pull it off. I'd be shocked.

Switch gun, pull trigger. Not massive, not elaborate.

RecoveringYuppy 22nd October 2021 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dumb All Over (Post 13636040)
Switch gun, pull trigger. Not massive, not elaborate.

In front of people who are supposed to be watching for picking up the wrong prop. And right before people are about to want to look real closely at the gun that just killed someone.

Myriad 22nd October 2021 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 13636035)
Baldwin is an absolute genius if he wanted her dead and he was able to go through this massive elaborate scheme to pull it off. I'd be shocked.


Lieutenant Columbo would see right through it, though.

Dumb All Over 22nd October 2021 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13636045)
In front of people who are supposed to be watching for picking up the wrong prop. And right before people are about to want to look real closely at the gun that just killed someone.

Step 3 - Feign ignorance. "I didn't know it was a real gun!"

lobosrul5 22nd October 2021 07:32 AM

I'm thinking somehow a real gun with real ammo got onto the set. I can't see how you could severely injure/kill two people with blanks. You basically need to hold the barrel against their head for that to be fatal. And it's unlikely the Brandon Lee situation could happen twice.

The Great Zaganza 22nd October 2021 07:34 AM

So was there one shot or two?


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-20, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.