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-   -   India launches Airstrikes on Pakistan.. (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335007)

rockinkt 27th February 2019 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12615173)
Uh, that India and Pakistan have been fighting and having border clashes since 1947 seems to have passed you by.

No it has not passed me by.
I will break it down for you so it may be easier to see where I was going:

The US decided it was perfectly OK to enter uninvited into Pakistan and stage a military operation that was basically a vigilante attack and execute an accused criminal terrorist named Bin Laden along with some others.
Their stated reasons for committing this violation of fundamental sovereign nation law was to execute what it claims were criminal terrorists resident in Pakistan that had committed terrorist acts on US soil and to stop these same people from committing further terrorist acts on US soil.
The US got away with this military action resulting in the deaths of Pakistani residents on Pakistani soil after a bit of sabre rattling from Pakistan and a few other countries that amounted to a fart in the wind.

Now we see that India has used its military to enter into Pakistan's airspace and execute what it states were criminal terrorists resident in Pakistan.
India is claiming that it did so to punish terrorists involved in past acts of terrorism on Indian soil and to protect itself from further attacks.

Using an earlier event or action as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances is the very definition of "precedent".

arthwollipot 27th February 2019 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12615594)
Some reports say a Pakistani jet may also have been shot down.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e_iOSApp_Other

Indeed. This is a pretty major escalation.

Information Analyst 27th February 2019 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12615028)
My bet is that the only reason India decided to launch this attack at this time is because they're reasonably confident that Pakistan won't escalate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 12615104)
I don't think this will escalate very much...

Hmmm...

Silly Green Monkey 27th February 2019 01:44 AM

Should we check the far side of the moon for a Taelon base, waiting to nuke an SI battlefield? I'm always a little disturbed when real life mirrors science fiction.

Captain_Swoop 27th February 2019 03:28 AM

Pakistan shoots down Indian aircraft over Kashmir BBC Report

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47383634

In addition to the air actions Indian and Pakistani troops have been shelling across the LoC. Four Pakistani civilians were killed and 10 others were injured in cross-border shelling on Tuesday.

On the Indian side, five soldiers were also injured in the firing, officials told the BBC. Schools in at least two districts along the LoC - Rajouri and Poonch - have been closed.

People living along the de facto border have been asked to leave their homes.

baron 27th February 2019 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 12615441)
They live there.

Is living in a place an excuse to break their laws and disrespect their culture? Or is it just Muslims to whom you afford that privilege?

Tolls 27th February 2019 05:07 AM

They're not disrespecting their culture.
They were moving cows!

baron 27th February 2019 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tolls (Post 12615725)
They're not disrespecting their culture.
They were moving cows!

Moooving cows.

a_unique_person 27th February 2019 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12615678)
Is living in a place an excuse to break their laws and disrespect their culture? Or is it just Muslims to whom you afford that privilege?

You got me there. No, wait, you didn't.

ponderingturtle 27th February 2019 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockinkt (Post 12615596)
No it has not passed me by.
I will break it down for you so it may be easier to see where I was going:

The US decided it was perfectly OK to enter uninvited into Pakistan and stage a military operation that was basically a vigilante attack and execute an accused criminal terrorist named Bin Laden along with some others.
Their stated reasons for committing this violation of fundamental sovereign nation law was to execute what it claims were criminal terrorists resident in Pakistan that had committed terrorist acts on US soil and to stop these same people from committing further terrorist acts on US soil.
The US got away with this military action resulting in the deaths of Pakistani residents on Pakistani soil after a bit of sabre rattling from Pakistan and a few other countries that amounted to a fart in the wind.

Now we see that India has used its military to enter into Pakistan's airspace and execute what it states were criminal terrorists resident in Pakistan.
India is claiming that it did so to punish terrorists involved in past acts of terrorism on Indian soil and to protect itself from further attacks.

Using an earlier event or action as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances is the very definition of "precedent".

Yep and that is why we can't be upset about the Saudi killing of a reporter when we had kidnapped and tortured people in other countries. Clearly abduction and torture in third countries is acceptable for any country to do.

Tolls 27th February 2019 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12615726)
Moooving cows.

Yeessss...

That doesn't really explain your bizarro-world view that the people targetted by these vigilantes (and seemingly murdered by cops) were somehow breaking some law or cultural taboo.

They weren't.

They were moving dairy cattle.

ponderingturtle 27th February 2019 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tolls (Post 12615765)
Yeessss...

That doesn't really explain your bizarro-world view that the people targetted by these vigilantes (and seemingly murdered by cops) were somehow breaking some law or cultural taboo.

They weren't.

They were moving dairy cattle.

Look they should have known better, like Emit Till should have known better than to get accused of whistling at a white woman. Clearly he was at fault for being there at all in a culture that didn't want him there.

baron 27th February 2019 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tolls (Post 12615765)
Yeessss...

That doesn't really explain your bizarro-world view that the people targetted by these vigilantes (and seemingly murdered by cops) were somehow breaking some law or cultural taboo.

They weren't.

They were moving dairy cattle.

Don't mess with cows in India. Goats are your best bet.

Childlike Empress 27th February 2019 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12615619)
Hmmm...


They call it saving face.

Tolls 27th February 2019 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12615778)
Don't mess with cows in India. Goats are your best bet.

I'll take that as an admittance that you were talking bollocks...

baron 27th February 2019 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tolls (Post 12615809)
I'll take that as an admittance that you were talking bollocks...

You can take it in whatever position you like, it makes no odds to me.

crescent 27th February 2019 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12615778)
Don't mess with cows in India. Goats are your best bet.

No. Water buffalo. The milk tastes better than cow milk, the meat tastes like beef.

I don't know about India, but when I lived in Nepal, most Nepalis seemed to view the idea of keeping goats for milk as bizarre. It just wasn't done.

Milk came from cows and buff. Red meat came from buff and goats.

The Great Zaganza 27th February 2019 10:21 AM

India and Pakistan have a long history of deescalating conflicts.
The only question is how big the egos on each side are - they are probably too big to let this quiet down quickly.

Garrison 27th February 2019 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tolls (Post 12615765)
Yeessss...

That doesn't really explain your bizarro-world view that the people targetted by these vigilantes (and seemingly murdered by cops) were somehow breaking some law or cultural taboo.

They weren't.

They were moving dairy cattle.


Which are legal and in no way taboo as the milk they produce is the raw ingredient of ghee, a staple of regional cuisine.


The actual point was that you have two countries where religious fanatics have far too much influence. The BJP is openly a fundamentalist party that despises Muslims and on the other side of the border you clearly have elements in the Pakistani government willing to at the very least turn a blind eye to the presence of terrorist organizations in their country. India and Pakistan have clashed before, but I don't think either has ever been in the grip of such extremist elements before.

theprestige 27th February 2019 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 12616103)
India and Pakistan have a long history of deescalating conflicts.
The only question is how big the egos on each side are - they are probably too big to let this quiet down quickly.

How do you figure?

What's your definition of "quickly"?

If it does quiet down quickly, will you think, "maybe I was wrong about the size of the egos"?

theprestige 27th February 2019 10:40 AM

The way I see it, the slapfight about sacred cows currently going on in this thread will probably last longer than the flare-up itself.

crescent 27th February 2019 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 12616103)
India and Pakistan have a long history of deescalating conflicts.
The only question is how big the egos on each side are - they are probably too big to let this quiet down quickly.

Pakistan seems to have fired artillery into India. India responded with jets. Pakistan claims to have shot down two jets, India admits to the "loss" of one.


India Pakistan: Kashmir fighting sees Indian aircraft downed

These are Mig-21s. Old but fast. Also unreliable. My impression is that the Pakistani airforce is more modern than most of the Indian airforce.

JoeMorgue 27th February 2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crescent (Post 12616158)
Pakistan seems to have fired artillery into India. India responded with jets. Pakistan claims to have shot down two jets, India admits to the "loss" of one.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that one was shot down and one crashed due to a mechanical issue and the Pakistanis are trying to claim both while the Indians are trying to down play it to one with both sides being completely dishonest while neither side is technically lying, which is the state where most international relations take place.

It's slightly eyebrow raising why they are using MIG-21 instead of any other the other more modern strike aircraft in their inventory, but there's plenty of possible legit reasons for that.

Information Analyst 27th February 2019 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12616180)
It's slightly eyebrow raising why they are using MIG-21 instead of any other the other more modern strike aircraft in their inventory, but there's plenty of possible legit reasons for that.

Expendability.

theprestige 27th February 2019 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 12615605)
Indeed. This is a pretty major escalation.

It doesn't seem that major to me. It's essentially a tit-for-tat exchange, as far as I can tell. India strikes paramilitary forces on the Pakistani side of the border. Pakistan comes over the next day and shoots down a couple Indian fighters.

There's some Very Serious national security meetings happening on both sides, which is entirely to be expected. But there's no reports of major troop mobilizations, no ramping up of militant rhetoric. Just the usual saber-rattling and posturing that goes along with incidents like this.

rockinkt 27th February 2019 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 12615736)
Yep and that is why we can't be upset about the Saudi killing of a reporter when we had kidnapped and tortured people in other countries. Clearly abduction and torture in third countries is acceptable for any country to do.


Why in the world do you think I am for anything like this? :boggled:

I pointed out that a precedent had been set because the US had not received any sanctions for their attack and India claimed to be doing their attack for basically the same reason as the US.

The term "precedent" is neutral.

At no time did I state or imply in any way, shape or form, that I was either for or against anyone's violation of Pakistan's sovereignty.

I suggest you quit jumping to conclusions as you might sprain something. :)

theprestige 27th February 2019 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockinkt (Post 12616223)

I pointed out that a precedent had been set because the US had not received any sanctions for their attack and India claimed to be doing their attack for basically the same reason as the US.

Besides, the precedent is much older than that.

dudalb 27th February 2019 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 12616103)
India and Pakistan have a long history of deescalating conflicts.
The only question is how big the egos on each side are - they are probably too big to let this quiet down quickly.

I think the advent of a hard line Hindu government in India as a lot to do with it.
Both sides are at fault:Pakistan for letting guerilllas operating from Pakistan;,India for really inflaming tensions with what amounts to persecution of Muslims.

dudalb 27th February 2019 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Information Analyst (Post 12616184)
Expendability.

Probably, I was a little surprised since MIG 21's are ancient in terms of fighter aircraft;they are probably used only for ground attack, in a dogfight they are toast.

crescent 27th February 2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12616248)
Probably, I was a little surprised since MIG 21's are ancient in terms of fighter aircraft;they are probably used only for ground attack, in a dogfight they are toast.

I think they had to extend the service of the 21s when the PAK-50/Su-57 deal fell apart.

timhau 27th February 2019 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 12616103)
India and Pakistan have a long history of deescalating conflicts.
The only question is how big the egos on each side are - they are probably too big to let this quiet down quickly.

Or alternatively, both sides have now flexed enough muscle to tell their home crowd some variant of "Now they'll know better than to **** with us," and things quiet down to close to the previous level of unease.

Dr. Keith 27th February 2019 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12616154)
The way I see it, the slapfight about sacred cows currently going on in this thread will probably last longer than the flare-up itself.

That seems a safe bet.

a_unique_person 27th February 2019 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrison (Post 12616124)
Which are legal and in no way taboo as the milk they produce is the raw ingredient of ghee, a staple of regional cuisine.





The actual point was that you have two countries where religious fanatics have far too much influence. The BJP is openly a fundamentalist party that despises Muslims and on the other side of the border you clearly have elements in the Pakistani government willing to at the very least turn a blind eye to the presence of terrorist organizations in their country. India and Pakistan have clashed before, but I don't think either has ever been in the grip of such extremist elements before.

You make it sound like it's a complex situation and not just about sacred cows.

dudalb 27th February 2019 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_unique_person (Post 12616451)
You make it sound like it's a complex situation and not just about sacred cows.

The Sacred Cows are just a symptom of the problem,not the problem itself.]
What I find scary is that some people here seem to be de facto approving of religious persuction..so long as it's victims are Muslims.

dudalb 27th February 2019 02:44 PM

Never forget extremes feed off of each other.
Muslim extremists raids into India give more power and Popularity to the Hindu Fundy Government, which then harasses Muslims, which then inflames the Muslim extremists even more, on ad bloody naseum.

arthwollipot 27th February 2019 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12616209)
It doesn't seem that major to me. It's essentially a tit-for-tat exchange, as far as I can tell. India strikes paramilitary forces on the Pakistani side of the border. Pakistan comes over the next day and shoots down a couple Indian fighters.

There's some Very Serious national security meetings happening on both sides, which is entirely to be expected. But there's no reports of major troop mobilizations, no ramping up of militant rhetoric. Just the usual saber-rattling and posturing that goes along with incidents like this.

Indian fighter pilot captured by Pakistan becomes unlikely human face of Kashmir crisis

Quote:

A downed Indian fighter pilot who was attacked by a mob and then paraded on video by Pakistan's army has become the human face of a spiralling crisis between the nuclear-armed neighbours.

The furore emerged after Pakistan's military shot down two Indian warplanes and captured the pilot on Wednesday, raising tensions between the two rivals to a level unseen in decades.

The man was brutally beaten by Pakistani villagers and taken by soldiers in clips that have since gone viral on social media, seeing him fast emerge as a symbol of the dangerous flare-up between the arch-foes.

India has not confirmed the man's identity, but Indian media have given his name as Abhinandan Varthaman.

The airman's treatment at the hands of Pakistani troops drew both condemnation and praise, while at his house in southern India supporters gathered to record messages of solidarity.

In one video posted on social media, a Pakistani soldier ankle-deep in a stream of water in the disputed Kashmir region can be seen shielding the pilot from angry villagers and shouting "enough" as they pummel his bloodied face and strike blows against his limp body.

In another video, posted on Twitter by Pakistan's information ministry, the pilot is blindfolded and can be heard saying "I've got hurt and I would request some water".

theprestige 27th February 2019 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 12616764)

In what is neither a big surprise nor a serious escalation, Pakistani treatment of POWs is somewhat depressing.

What's your point?

arthwollipot 27th February 2019 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12616811)
In what is neither a big surprise nor a serious escalation, Pakistani treatment of POWs is somewhat depressing.

What's your point?

My point is that it is an escalation, when compared to the last ten years of India/Pakistan relations. The war in Kashmir has been cold. Now it's hot again.

Checkmite 27th February 2019 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12615048)
Best advice; don't go to India, disrespect their culture and break their laws

India is 14% Muslim. They didn't "go to India", they are native-born Indians.

theprestige 27th February 2019 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot (Post 12616830)
My point is that it is an escalation, when compared to the last ten years of India/Pakistan relations. The war in Kashmir has been cold. Now it's hot again.

The pilot's situation doesn't tell us anything about that.

And now you're just equivocating between the Indian airstrikes yesterday, and the shoot-down today. I'm inclined to view the former as an actual escalation, but not the latter. And even then, I'm not so sure about the former.

Do you have something other than the news report about the pilot, that argues in favor of this being not just an "escalation", but a serious departure from the status quo?

After all, Pakistan has been sending paramilitary troops into India for years. Is it really an "escalation" if India bombs one of their training camps or staging grounds from time to time?

And given that Pakistan has been sending paramilitary troops into India for years, is it really correct to say the war in Kashmir has been "cold"? Troops were fighting, bullets were flying, and people were dying long before yesterday's incident.


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