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-   -   Jeffrey Epstein arrested for child sex trafficking (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337375)

DevilsAdvocate 28th July 2019 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12765864)
Okay let's apply Occam's Razor here.

- A cabal of the Illuminati Free Mason NWO (both the wrestling faction and the secret world government) Deep State agents are out to get Epstein to silence him on their secret world wide child rape ring and were able to get into the cell of... the most important informant in modern history... but only mildly scratched his neck.

- Epstein did to himself to attention/sympathy.

Where were the Osundairo brothers when this happened?

dann 1st August 2019 01:46 PM

Brave New World

Now it gets genuinely dystopian:

Quote:

Jeffrey Epstein, the wealthy financier accused of sex trafficking, planned to develop an improved super-race of humans using genetic engineering and artificial intelligence, according to the New York Times.
(...)
Though there is little evidence the scheme ever progressed beyond fantasy, prominent scientists, including the late Stephen Hawking, regularly attended dinners, lunches and conferences held by Epstein, the Times said.
Epstein reportedly hoped to develop super-race of humans with his DNA (Guardian, Aug. 1, 2019)

Checkmite 1st August 2019 08:07 PM

Quote:

Though there is little evidence the scheme ever progressed beyond fantasy
Forgive me if that sentence marks the end of my taking this "revelation" seriously.

Skeptic Ginger 1st August 2019 09:41 PM

His trial isn't until June. That's a year in jail before even going to trial.

smartcooky 1st August 2019 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12773893)
Brave New World

Now it gets genuinely dystopian:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12774227)
Forgive me if that sentence marks the end of my taking this "revelation" seriously.

The only thing that comes to mind for me is that this "revelation" might be the second step (the first being the alleged suicide attempt) towards laying the groundwork for an insanity defence, because those "revelations" contain some ******* insane ****

Checkmite 1st August 2019 09:59 PM

Frankly I have to object to that particular angle being raised at all. Not by Dann, but by the Times. I'm struggling to find a way to read

Quote:

Though there is little evidence the scheme ever progressed beyond fantasy, prominent scientists, including the late Stephen Hawking, regularly attended dinners, lunches and conferences held by Epstein, the Times said.
...in any way other than a suggestion that "prominent scientists, including the late Stephen Hawking", might possibly have been conspiring with Epstein to make his bizarre sexual fantasy into a reality.

bruto 1st August 2019 10:45 PM

The implication of the times article cited by the Guardian seems a little less inflammatory, suggesting that Epstein cultivated scientists (as he seems to have cultivated politicians and other celebrities too), and that they largely put up with his nonsense and bloviating because they hoped he'd fund their research. That's nothing very unusual, I suspect. The Grauniad article makes it sound as if he recruited scientists for his crazy scheme, but the NYT makes it sound more as if he just spouted in their presence, and most did not take him seriously, but just tolerated him because he gave them money.

I suspect the Epstein affair will result in very little revelation of wrongdoing or collusion on the part of the people he cultivated, but a considerable amount of embarrassment that they were so uncritical.

dann 1st August 2019 11:41 PM

Yes, the NYT article doesn't imply that any of the scientists participated in any way in Epstein's sexual abuse of children.

Notice this addition to the article:
Quote:

Correction: Aug. 1, 2019
An earlier version of this article misstated when the prominent scientists Stephen Jay Gould, Stephen Hawking, Murray Gell-Mann, Oliver Sacks and Frank Wilczek attended gatherings hosted by Jeffrey E. Epstein. The events they attended occurred before Mr. Epstein’s 2008 conviction, not after it.

Gould died in 2002! And it's hard to imagine Hawking as a grooming pedophile, unless he lured them in by letting them play with his voice machine ...


Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12774272)
Frankly I have to object to that particular angle being raised at all. Not by Dann, but by the Times. I'm struggling to find a way to read

Quote:

Though there is little evidence the scheme ever progressed beyond fantasy, prominent scientists, including the late Stephen Hawking, regularly attended dinners, lunches and conferences held by Epstein, the Times said.
...in any way other than a suggestion that "prominent scientists, including the late Stephen Hawking", might possibly have been conspiring with Epstein to make his bizarre sexual fantasy into a reality.


It's the scheme mentioned in the article, his other fantasy! I.e. that he "planned to develop an improved super-race of humans using genetic engineering and artificial intelligence."

Checkmite 2nd August 2019 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12774309)
It's the scheme mentioned in the article, his other fantasy! I.e. that he "planned to develop an improved super-race of humans using genetic engineering and artificial intelligence."

No no - that's the one I'm talking about. The Guardian article elaborates:

Quote:

“Epstein told scientists and businessmen about his ambitions to use his New Mexico ranch as a base where women would be inseminated with his sperm and would give birth to his babies … Mr Epstein’s goal was to have 20 women at a time impregnated at his 33,000-sq-ft Zorro Ranch in a tiny town outside Santa Fe,” the Times said.
Thaaaaat's a sexual fantasy, not a scientific one.

dann 2nd August 2019 07:02 AM

Inseminating 20 women at a time doesn't imply having any kind of sex with them. That's what he used the children for. That's why I call it dystopian - to anybody but him.
I also wouldn't describe his dreams of discovering the scopaesthesia particle and of having his head and penis frozen down as sex dreams, even though the fulfillment of the latter should be granted as soon as he has witnessed against his pedophile buddies.

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Checkmite 2nd August 2019 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12774549)
Inseminating 20 women at a time doesn't imply having any kind of sex with them.

That's true, and I wouldn't have expected him to express that detail to others whether it was part of his fantasy or not; but that doesn't make his mass-impregnation scheme not a sexual fantasy. Sexual fantasizing does not have to involve actual copulation....or indeed any sex act on the part of the fantasist. BDSM play for instance is inherently sexual, but individual "sessions" often may not involve any sexual contact at all; often the "power" one has over an individual, or the agency one surrenders, is the basis of the sexual excitement rather than any directly sexual act.

There are forms of this that are far less benign as well. A peeping tom for instance does not necessarily have to witness a victim naked or in a state of undress to get a sexual charge out of spying on them; the fact that he is blatantly violating their privacy without consent and there is nothing they can do about it is sufficient. The motivation of "flashers" who jump out from hiding and expose themselves to women and children is very similar. And more than one serial murderer is believed by analysts to have a sexual motivation for his crime even though the method of killing doesn't involve any overtly sexual violation.

More specifically, the idea of using women as human breeding-cattle is a fairly established misogynist sexual fantasy. It usually lives in internet pornographic fiction by said misogynists, but occasionally it leaks out of that bubble; "supreme gentleman" Elliot Roger, who detailed his "war on women" in a manifesto he posted online before his 2014 shooting rampage, described a fantasized future society in which women were deprived of all agency and used only for an industrial-scale breeding program. In Epstein's case, the fact that dozens of women at a time are being sexually penetrated and impregnated with his sperm gives away the personal sexual nature of the fantasy even if he doesn't imagine himself performing the task with his own body. It's also worth pointing out there's no real evidence separating this "breeding" fantasy from his habit for violating underage girls, most of whom were at least technically of childbearing age, and his expressed fantasy doesn't mention any age threshold for the women he intends to impregnate in his "breeding program".

Arcade22 2nd August 2019 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checkmite (Post 12774902)
More specifically, the idea of using women as human breeding-cattle is a fairly established misogynist sexual fantasy. It usually lives in internet pornographic fiction by said misogynists, but occasionally it leaks out of that bubble;

Based on my experience i have no hesitance in pointing out that such sexual fantasies are not by any means exclusive to either "misogynists", or men for that matter. Sexual and erotic fiction based upon such "misogynist" premises are often produced by women, and much of it is consumed by women. Not unlike how women are often the ones aroused by sexual fantasies of rape, which are arguably just as "misogynist".

Unless you are going to suggest that these women are crypto-misogynists, who secretly want to be enslaved and robbed of their autonomy while otherwise publicly voicing support for women's rights, I'd suggest you rephrase yourself.

Of course it's obvious why such fantasies would appeal to sexually frustrated and socially retarded narcissists like Elliot Roger, but it's hardly the only kind of person who'd find it arousing. You'd find no shortage of men who'd find it appealing to have a harem of beautiful young women, and there are no shortage of historical examples of similar things actually being enacted.

Checkmite 2nd August 2019 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 12775141)
Based on my experience i have no hesitance in pointing out that such sexual fantasies are not by any means exclusive to either "misogynists", or men for that matter. Sexual and erotic fiction based upon such "misogynist" premises are often produced by women, and much of it is consumed by women. Not unlike how women are often the ones aroused by sexual fantasies of rape, which are arguably just as "misogynist".

Unless you are going to suggest that these women are crypto-misogynists, who secretly want to be enslaved and robbed of their autonomy while otherwise publicly voicing support for women's rights, I'd suggest you rephrase yourself.

I see no need. My experience does not match yours, and "misogynist" as an objective description of the character of this fantasy is both understandable and defensible. If a woman who is publicly a feminist activist decides to post that she is personally offended that I referred to "breeding cattle" fantasies as misogynist, I'll be happy to revisit my characterization. Until then, it's unnecessary; and is ultimately an irrelevant hijack. Whether one wants to dispute that it's misogynist or not, it is undoubtedly a sexual fantasy, which is the actual point vis-a-vis Epstein.

Darat 10th August 2019 06:13 AM

Report from ABC that he has killed himself.

JihadJane 10th August 2019 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12782808)
Report from ABC that he has killed himself.

That's handy.

Vixen 10th August 2019 06:22 AM

Shocking that anyone can kill themselves in prison. Where were the prison guards surveilling him?

Oh well, I guess that gets the likes of Prince Andrew off the hook.

smartcooky 10th August 2019 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12782808)
Report from ABC that he has killed himself.

Hmm, suicide Eh?

A likely story. I wonder who put the hit out on him?

JoeMorgue 10th August 2019 06:30 AM

Found hung in his cell about 7:30 this morning is the word hitting the streets, pretty much literally no other details yet.

BobTheCoward 10th August 2019 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 12782812)
Hmm, suicide Eh?

A likely story. I wonder who put the hit out on him?

This is a joke right?

angrysoba 10th August 2019 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 12782812)
Hmm, suicide Eh?

A likely story. I wonder who put the hit out on him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12782830)
This is a joke right?

I remember that he had been found in his cell a week ago or more after an apparent suicide.

Was that a hit gone wrong?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ll-say-reports

I suppose the evidence is ambiguous...

Quote:

Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier facing charges of sex trafficking involving dozens of underage girls, was found unconscious in a Manhattan jail cell with injuries to his neck, US media reported late on Wednesday, citing unidentified sources.

Epstein was found by guards sprawled on the floor of his cell at the Metropolitan Correctional Center (MCC) on Wednesday, it was reported.

The wealthy financier was taken to hospital, according to the New York Post, but it was unclear where he was taken or what his condition was.

It was not clear how he suffered his injuries. A source familiar with the situation told the Guardian that Epstein had allegedly been attacked. Two anonymous sources told New York’s local NBC News 4 that Epstein’s injuries may have been self-inflicted.
That incident was in July.

BobTheCoward 10th August 2019 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12782837)
I remember that he had been found in his cell a week ago or more after an apparent suicide.

Was that a hit gone wrong?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ll-say-reports

I suppose the evidence is ambiguous...



That incident was in July.

"Ambiguous" is a real fancy way of justifying JAQing off.

jimbob 10th August 2019 07:37 AM

It doesn't say much for the quality of the suicide watch he was under.

JoeMorgue 10th August 2019 07:41 AM

Forget "Suicide Watch" if you've got the central figure in THE biggest and far reaching criminal case / political scandal waiting in the wings going on right now isn't keeping an eye on the dude, even without the specific reason of a suicide watch, like a good idea?

This wasn't some dude sitting in gen-pop waiting to post bail for writing bad checks.

applecorped 10th August 2019 07:42 AM

that didn't take long.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12221

angrysoba 10th August 2019 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12782839)
"Ambiguous" is a real fancy way of justifying JAQing off.

*shrugs*

Call it what you want, I am not that interested. It wouldn't surprise me if someone had simply murdered him, because that's what often happens to people accused and/or convicted of sexual abuse of minors.

Personally, I think he killed himself.

JoeMorgue 10th August 2019 07:47 AM

The oddness of there being Epstein Suicide Conspiracy Theories already well established before Epstein committed suicide aside, I still stand by my original point.

If somebody wanted Epstein dead he would have "slipped in the shower" or "wrecked his car" on a busy news day between his plea deal years ago and his second arrest.

alfaniner 10th August 2019 08:14 AM

If there was ever a conspiracy theory that had some merit and plausibility, this is it. That being that someone at a high level, with a lot of (possibly mob) influence, called the hit on this guy.

llwyd 10th August 2019 08:31 AM

Well, probably convenient for some people, but that's no proof of murder. These things happen - his life was spectacularly collapsing so suicide would be quite a natural concequence.

Arcade22 10th August 2019 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12782897)
Call it what you want, I am not that interested. It wouldn't surprise me if someone had simply murdered him, because that's what often happens to people accused and/or convicted of sexual abuse of minors.

It's almost like you'd expect them to work extra hard to keep that from happening to such a high-profile detainee, simply because it would send a really poor signal about how insecure and unsafe the facility is.

quadraginta 10th August 2019 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 (Post 12782939)
It's almost like you'd expect them to work extra hard to keep that from happening to such a high-profile detainee, simply because it would send a really poor signal about how insecure and unsafe the facility is.


If it is true that he was already known to be suicidal, and desperation could lead to possible deals with the prosecution that might make other powerful people uncomfortable, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that those in charge of watching him might be something less than diligent. For whatever reason.

Certainly simpler than trying to put out a hit, and with less peripheral evidence to be left around.

Convenient, one might say.

It's not like anyone important is really concerned about how "unsafe" our prison are. Protests from bleeding-heart liberals aside.

Beerina 10th August 2019 09:28 AM

Rats! I guess we never will get the dirt on what many billionaires, famous people, and two presidents were doing on his sex plane and sex island, where he hired prostitutes as young as 14.

Golly!

Delphic Oracle 10th August 2019 09:31 AM

And just like that, my social media feeds have gone full on "the Clintonista mafia" conspiracy mode.

Sideroxylon 10th August 2019 09:40 AM

How convenient.

quadraginta 10th August 2019 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle (Post 12782969)
And just like that, my social media feeds have gone full on "the Clintonista mafia" conspiracy mode.


Why not just regular old Mafia mafia? They are in the hit business after all.

Never mind. I know the answer.

Giordano 10th August 2019 10:05 AM

I have never bought into anything resembling a conspiracy theory. But in this case I find it nearly impossible to believe that this was a simple suicide. Epstein was one of the most high profile prisoners they had. Apparently he attempted a suicide (or was attacked) just days ago. Surely he would have now been held under the most rigid watch/protective custody conditions possible. How on earth could he commit suicide by hanging under those conditions?

Further, whatever the truth of any of the specific allegations swirling around him there is no doubt that he was an enormous embarrassment to much of our criminal justice system and probably a substantial threat to many important individuals. A large number of people are breathing easier with him dead than when he was alive, some of whom are politically powerful and some of who work within the police, court, and incarceration systems.

It is hard not to see this as the classical organized crime meme "Perhaps he could have an convenient accident?" I am not convinced that he was murdered directly by someone in authority, but perhaps he was knowingly permitted to commit suicide or to be attacked by another inmate. IMO right now: less than 1 chance in 10 that he willingly committed suicide despite the wishes and actions of the prison administration and staff.

AnonyMoose 10th August 2019 10:14 AM

... aaaaaaand just like that, all the filthy rich pigs are free and clear.

BobTheCoward 10th August 2019 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giordano (Post 12782984)
IMO right now: less than 1 chance in 10 that he willingly committed suicide despite the wishes and actions of the prison administration and staff.

This is an extraordinary opinion.

applecorped 10th August 2019 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward (Post 12782997)
This is an extraordinary opinion.

I have no opinion on that

applecorped 10th August 2019 10:42 AM

"A guy who had information that would have destroyed rich and powerful men’s lives ends up dead in his jail cell. How predictably…Russian,” wrote Joe Scarborough



Is there anything Russians can't do?

Arcade22 10th August 2019 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12782951)
If it is true that he was already known to be suicidal, and desperation could lead to possible deals with the prosecution that might make other powerful people uncomfortable, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that those in charge of watching him might be something less than diligent. For whatever reason.

Or the guards didn't pay enough attention because he looked and acted "like he wasn't about to kill himself". It wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened.

On other hand, how often is it that a high profile prisoner is assassinated inside of a federal prison while awaiting trial? Any examples?


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