International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   USA Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Continuation The Trump Presidency: Part 19 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341209)

Davidlpf 2nd January 2020 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941522)
Then you aren't paying attention.


.

Like when he said the moon was part of Mars.

Davidlpf 2nd January 2020 11:08 PM

There is an old joke in different businesses.
How do you make a million dollars, start with two million dollars.
Trump is the prefect example of this he was a rich kid who kept failing until he got a reality show.
Funny thing I was writing about an extinction event and Trump might have started one in that time.

Steve 2nd January 2020 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941522)
Then you aren't paying attention.



When a successful person does something that looks stupid to you, you should consider the possibility that you don't understand what it is that they're doing.



Trump wasn't brought. He barged his way in, when none of the party establishment wanted him. He beat out a crowd of Republican contenders, and then defeated Hillary when nobody thought he could.

Democratic strategists might call him stupid, but if they actually believe that, they'll lose to him again.

Of course I donít understand what Trump is doing as president. No one does.
Trump certainly could not explain what he is doing. He has trouble assembling a coherent sentence.

Turning an inheritance into bankruptcies is not my idea of successful.

Democratic strategists are planning their fight against Trump strategists. Not against the useful idiot himself.

Aridas 2nd January 2020 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 12941524)
*sigh* no he didnít win it on his own. Stop trying to tell us how smart Trump is when clearly he isnít. He cheated royally and had Putinís help. Like he always has for years. On his own, he would never have been a candidate. He crashed casinos...how smart can THAT be?

Ehh, I think that you and Ziggurat are both misdirecting your attention a bit with "smart." Trump's a conman, with a bunch of stuff that that entails. He did, in fact, barge into a very divided Republican primary and pretty much followed the Fox News formula of tribal hate, combined with selling himself as, for example, the only candidate who would not go after people's Medicaid and Medicare and he won. As for defeating Hillary when no one thought he would? Yeah, that's BS. Plenty of people were well aware that he had a very real and significant chance at victory, given the actual factors in play, even if Russia weren't interfering.

Resume 2nd January 2020 11:17 PM

Trump is a smarmy used car salesman who appeals to the percentage of US citizens stupid enough to fall for that ****. He isn't smart, they aren't smart and neither is anyone who thinks he or they are smart. Winning an election doesn't make you smart.

And now it appears he stupidly started another mess in the Middle East to show how tough he is, and his stupid followers will eat it up. Never mind this coward dodged the draft (with the help of his daddy, as usual), mocks those that actually served and suffered, and ***** on their memories. This piece of garbage is going to be around for at least another five years, and will continue to **** things up, smiling stupidly all the while.

Aridas 2nd January 2020 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941526)
I didn't say he won it on his own. No one does. But he wasn't picked by the establishment.

That I can agree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941526)
He isn't anyone's puppet, and certainly not Putin's. This is conspiratorial nonsense.

This, on the other hand - what would it take for you not to dismiss it without any serious evaluation of the mountain of evidence pointing to Trump trying to dance to Putin's desire?

Davidlpf 2nd January 2020 11:37 PM

The way I see it there a few possible outcomes to all this:
1) both side back down
2) there is a war between them but no one else is dragged into it.
The majority of the Iranian people are not great supporters of the government so could there be another civil war or the people will turn away from the west and whatever short term victory will result in greater disaster left in the region.
3) there is a war and other countries are dragged in.
Hopefully case 1 but unlikely.

Resume 2nd January 2020 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 12941531)
Of course I donít understand what Trump is doing as president. No one does.
Trump certainly could not explain what he is doing. He has trouble assembling a coherent sentence.

Turning an inheritance into bankruptcies is not my idea of successful.

Democratic strategists are planning their fight against Trump strategists. Not against the useful idiot himself.

There's a reason that members of his cabinet say he is a ******* moron. It's because he's a ******* moron.

Davidlpf 2nd January 2020 11:47 PM

A moron that every one else will have to clean up after.

alfaniner 3rd January 2020 12:48 AM

Quote:

"Cry 'Havoc!,' and let slip the dogs of war."
"World War III" (along with its variations) and "Iran" are trending on Twitter.
Most of the time when I check Twitter the trends are names of singers or sports figures I don't know.
CNN is giving it full live coverage instead of the usual 3-hour block repeats at this time of night. I'm tempted to keep it on all night but the hour is late and I think the response will take a little while. I think a lot of people (a lot of people!) will be surprised to what they wake up to in a few hours.

Planigale 3rd January 2020 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidlpf (Post 12941541)
The way I see it there a few possible outcomes to all this:
1) both side back down
2) there is a war between them but no one else is dragged into it.
The majority of the Iranian people are not great supporters of the government so could there be another civil war or the people will turn away from the west and whatever short term victory will result in greater disaster left in the region.
3) there is a war and other countries are dragged in.
Hopefully case 1 but unlikely.

The Iraqi government was already annoyed by US strikes on Iraqis in Iraq. The US just bombed an Iranian General who had flown into Baghdad Airport presumably with the permission of the Iraqi government who could have refused entry or detained him if they wished. The General who was the principal architect of the defeat of ISIS in Iraq and Syria. The US seem to be acting on the basis that the enemy of my enemy is my enemy.

The worst outcome might be Iraq ordering US forces out and leaving Iranian influence greater.

For the Iraqis it would be unclear that US forces are not now more destabilising than of benefit. The infantry needed to defeat ISIS were provided by Iran, Russia (+/- China) may be happy to provide air support in place of the US.

The US may find themselves having to open fire on unarmed demonstrators if 'riots' occur.

Minoosh 3rd January 2020 01:23 AM

More than most people, I think, I desperately want rapprochement with Iran and wish both sides cut out the inflammatory rhetoric that they both use to whip up domestic approval.

Yet ... air strikes on Iranian targets don't don't bother me as much as they could, because unfortunately they communicate with Iran in a way that diplomacy can't match. (Although I think the U.S. would benefit if they actually tried intensive diplomacy with the Islamic Republic of Iran.)

ETA: I accidentally posted just the first paragraph above. I wanted to add my reasoning. Which may not be all that sound. I'm not an expert and can't justify all my gut feelings.

More ETA ... I don't mean to say that Iran only understands violence. It's an old and complicated nation, sophisticated and diverse. But I do think there are factions that will understand a smackdown more than an olive branch. Whether it's justified or not in this case I'm not sure. Not enough info.

Lukraak_Sisser 3rd January 2020 01:50 AM

Maybe let Iran bomb a top US general now? After all, clearly this is a normal way to deal with international politics?

Pixel42 3rd January 2020 02:03 AM

From the analysis in the Guardian:

Quote:

There are few good reasons to assume that this new raised level of conflict, halfway between cold and hot wars, will be stable. Both sides have a long history of misreading each other’s intentions and overreaching.

And while the consequences of Suleimani’s killing are unclear, what is almost certain is that Trump has not thought them through. He made the decision while on holiday at his Florida resort. He did it without the sombre presidential address to explain his actions to the nation as is customary at such pivotal junctures in the country’s history, merely tweeting out a US flag and leaving it to the Pentagon make the announcement.

Over the past three years, the national security decision-making process, by which the pros and cons of US action were once carefully weighed, has been gutted. There are few high-level policy meetings any more. The independent thinkers in Trump’s orbit have left the stage, leaving a president who ultimately trusts his gut instincts above any expert.

It is those instincts that have, more than any other single factor, led the US and Iran to this point, and in particular Trump’s visceral hatred of his predecessor, Barack Obama, and his diplomatic legacy, the 2015 nuclear deal. Destruction of the deal and the economic strangulation of Iran, became a central imperative of Trumpian foreign policy.

Tero 3rd January 2020 03:19 AM

This can't end well. The Iraq Bush created will fall apart.

Captain_Swoop 3rd January 2020 05:38 AM

Trump Retweeted

Travel - State Dept
@TravelGov
#Iraq: Due to heightened tensions in Iraq and the region, we urge U.S. citizens to depart Iraq immediately. Due to Iranian-backed militia attacks at the U.S. Embassy compound, all consular operations are suspended. U.S. citizens should not approach the Embassy.

Captain_Swoop 3rd January 2020 05:40 AM

Trump Retweeted

Jim Sciutto
@jimsciutto
Tonight, there are hundreds of American families watching news of Suleimaniís killing particularly closely. He engineered attacks in Iraq, often with sophisticated IEDs, that killed hundreds of US service-members & wounded thousands more.

Sam Dagher
@samdagher
This year hundreds of protesters were killed in #Iraq after #QassemSoleimani urged pro #Iran gov to use maximum force & in #Syria Soleimani played crucial role in #Assad regime crackdown on protests starting in 2011 resulting in death or disappearance of hundreds of thousands.

Captain_Swoop 3rd January 2020 05:41 AM

Trump Tweeted

A picture of an American flag.

Captain_Swoop 3rd January 2020 05:44 AM

Eric Trump Tweeted (before the attack)

Eric Trump
@erictrump
Bout to open a big ol' can of whoop ass
#DonMessWithTheBest
#USAUSAUSA twitter.com/jackposobiec/s...


(this tweet was removed and replaced with


Great job ⁦@realDonaldTrump!
Trump just took out the world's biggest bad guy Qasem Soleimani

Captain_Swoop 3rd January 2020 05:47 AM

Trump Tweeted

Iran never won a war, but never lost a negotiation!

SuburbanTurkey 3rd January 2020 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pixel42 (Post 12941589)

Man this is grim. Trump is ****-posting our way into a shooting war with Iran. Imagine being some troop who's about to step on an IED in 6 months over this dumb ****.

The Great Zaganza 3rd January 2020 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 12941682)
Trump Tweeted

Iran never won a war, but never lost a negotiation!

He thinks he's clever but he's not.

Ziggurat 3rd January 2020 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aridas (Post 12941538)
This, on the other hand - what would it take for you not to dismiss it without any serious evaluation of the mountain of evidence pointing to Trump trying to dance to Putin's desire?

Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves heís not Putinís puppet. Thereís a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isnít.

Fast Eddie B 3rd January 2020 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidlpf (Post 12941530)
There is an old joke in different businesses.
How do you make a million dollars, start with two million dollars.

Certainly not unique to aviation, but along those lines...

ďHow do you make a small fortune in aviation? First, start with a large fortune...Ē

Fast Eddie B 3rd January 2020 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidlpf (Post 12941528)
Like when he said the moon was part of Mars.

Honestly, given the Principle of Charity, I understood what he meant in that specific instance.

Ladewig 3rd January 2020 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 12941680)
Eric Trump Tweeted (before the attack)

Eric Trump
@erictrump
Bout to open a big ol' can of whoop ass
#DonMessWithTheBest
#USAUSAUSA twitter.com/jackposobiec/s...


(this tweet was removed and replaced with


Great job ⁦@realDonaldTrump!
Trump just took out the world's biggest bad guy Qasem Soleimani

Is that a typo on your part or is Eric trying to encourage his father to mess with the best?

shemp 3rd January 2020 07:09 AM

I don't fancy a war with a lunatic in charge.

JoeMorgue 3rd January 2020 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shemp (Post 12941738)
I don't fancy a war with a lunatic in charge.

We joked about it with Bush and Reagan in regards to going all cowboy and "pushing the button" but honestly it feels a lot less like a joke with Trump.

Segnosaur 3rd January 2020 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 12941677)
Trump Tweeted



A picture of an American flag.

Was he fondling it at the time?

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

The Greater Fool 3rd January 2020 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 12941746)
Was he fondling it at the time?

There was a lone tear about to fall.

JoeMorgue 3rd January 2020 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shemp (Post 12941738)
I don't fancy a war with a lunatic in charge.

Especially since for all the reasonable criticisms that ranges from "obvious" to "well at least that's a fair question to put on the table" in regards to all the conflicts that Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc started in recent modern history, all of them were at least smart enough to once they decided there was going to be a conflict to let actual military leaders actually run them.

Trump? He'd be doing that "Micromanage while at the same time remaining totally disinterested in it" thing because he has to be "The bestest most smartests who knows what to do better than anyone about everything" but is also stupid and lazy to an incredible degree.

Segnosaur 3rd January 2020 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941713)
Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves heís not Putinís puppet. Thereís a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isnít.

No, actually the best thing Trump could have done to weaken Putin/Russia is encourage alternative energy sources and conservation so that the demand for oil will drop (along with prices). Oil is a finite resource and largely fungible and any extra production will eventually be met by increasing demand (keeping prices stable and giving money to Russia as well as Saudi Arabia, Iran, and other countries that are often hostile to US interests).

As for Putin backing environmentalists in the US... First I heard of it. Certainly haven't heard of any big Russia "troll farms" to promote green issues. Whatever support he does give is probably just meant to cause dissent/division in the US.

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

Ziggurat 3rd January 2020 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Segnosaur (Post 12941756)
No, actually the best thing Trump could have done to weaken Putin/Russia is encourage alternative energy sources and conservation so that the demand for oil will drop (along with prices).

Oh, my dear, sweet, naive boy. Even assuming that works, the timescale is far too long.

Quote:

Oil is a finite resource and largely fungible
The fungibility is exactly why US domestic production hurts Putin.

Quote:

As for Putin backing environmentalists in the US... First I heard of it.
That doesn't surprise me. The story hasn't gotten nearly as much press as it should, but it's out there. For example:
https://www.newsweek.com/putin-fundi...racking-635052

Quote:

Certainly haven't heard of any big Russia "troll farms" to promote green issues.
They don't need to. There's an infrastructure already in place here to advance their cause that they can piggy back off of.

Quote:

Whatever support he does give is probably just meant to cause dissent/division in the US.
Except unlike other political stuff (including Trump vs. Hillary), they aren't playing both sides of that issue. They're only playing one side.

Craig4 3rd January 2020 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941713)
Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves heís not Putinís puppet. Thereís a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isnít.

I think you're forgetting that part where Trump and his Trumptrash colluded with Russians and Wikileaks against America and Americans to influence the election in Trump's favor. It's not our oil production that's weakening Putin, it's the sanctions that he wants lifted. Fortunately, there are still enough Americans in Congress to prevent the Trump supporters from weakening the sanctions regime.

Minoosh 3rd January 2020 08:29 AM

Explaining
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser (Post 12941587)
Maybe let Iran bomb a top US general now? After all, clearly this is a normal way to deal with international politics?

I think I know where you are coming from though I might be wrong. In my head, I've been keeping score for 40 years. In the eternal game of tit-for-tat I don't fault Iranians for trash-talking the U.S. The U.S. has done PLENTY to keep the adversarial relationship alive. At any given point, IMO, the Iranians have had a case for calling it all even. Considering that the U.S. intervened in THEIR elections quite substantially almost 70 years ago.

So, I have no idea how this will shake out. But I'm pretty sure the Islamic Republic of Iran is taking Trump more seriously than it did Jimmy Carter or even Barack Obama. Whether this is a good thing or not, I don't have enough facts to judge. I've no doubt some factions in Iran are pushing for exactly what your post proposes. But it's significant that Iran even has factions. It is a dictatorship, but light years away from the control exerted by Kim Jong-un or even President Xi of China. It wants engagement with the rest of the world, enough to *maybe* set aside the need for revenge and to start playing it straight vs. continually trolling the United States. Even if the U.S. deserves it.

In this one area of my life, I'm an optimist. Iran and the U.S. could have a bang-up strategic alliance if they can just back off from the Axis-of-Evil/Great Satan ******** that has been going on for 40 years. The 2 countries have been quiet allies in several recent conflicts. It's more complicated than it looks. That's my thumbnail impression.

When Iran topics come up on this forum I always feel compelled to jump in. But I have no idea what, in practice, the 2 countries should do to break out of a decades-long stalemate which, many people would agree, has outlived its usefulness.

Ladewig 3rd January 2020 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B (Post 12941718)
Honestly, given the Principle of Charity, I understood what he meant in that specific instance.

Agreed.

Aridas 3rd January 2020 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941713)
Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves he’s not Putin’s puppet. There’s a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isn’t.

I see. You're falling into a really, really obvious hole here, then, where you're dismissing the mountain of evidence for a poorly thought through attempt at cherry-picking one thing and then both magnifying it far out of reason and adding distinctly untrustworthy spin and assumptions. Motivated logic in action.

Trebuchet 3rd January 2020 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shemp (Post 12941738)
I don't fancy a war with a lunatic in charge.

Lunatics on both sides. John Bolton is presumably ecstatic.

Lurch 3rd January 2020 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941713)
Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves heís not Putinís puppet. Thereís a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isnít.

The oil and gas companies are expanding US production. The gov't (Trumpco currently) are merely assenting.

Whaddya want? That Trump prove his distance from Putin by curtailing his own nation's energy sector?!?

And as to Putin backing US environmentalists... He also publicly stated his Backing of Trump. And we know the swerpunkt of Putin's strategy is destabilization of the US in any event. Trump for him is beyond wish fulfillment.

This is not the support for Dear Leader you might have us fall for.

Lurch 3rd January 2020 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B (Post 12941718)
Honestly, given the Principle of Charity, I understood what he meant in that specific instance.

And I. It does induce a bit of a cringe when folk bring this up as evidence of idiocy. It was just the poor grammar of a disorganized mind. Much else points to the man's idiocy; this one is not the best to harp on.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:15 AM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-19, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.