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-   -   Continuation The Trump Presidency: Part 19 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341209)

acbytesla 3rd January 2020 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941713)
Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves heís not Putinís puppet. Thereís a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isnít.

You're really desperate with that logic.

The Great Zaganza 3rd January 2020 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941713)
Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves heís not Putinís puppet. Thereís a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isnít.

Obama did that. Trump just didn't undo it.
So no proof at all.

JoeMorgue 3rd January 2020 10:32 AM

This is pretty disgusting.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12330

Segnosaur 3rd January 2020 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12941940)

But the most important thing to remember is that it's the Democrat's impeachment efforts which are dividing the country.

/sarcasm

ETA: Keep in mind that D'Souza was convicted on charges related to illegal campaign financing, and was pardoned by Stubby McBonespurs. So he's not just some random individual making that comment, but someone who has at least some interaction with the Trump administration.

Captain_Swoop 3rd January 2020 11:33 AM

Trump Tweeted

Christopher Bedford, The Federalist Senior Editor. “There is NOTHING NEW in these Emails at all that’s been discovered. It’s exactly what we knew before, which is that the White House & political figures wanted to cut off aid, Trump wanted to question aid to a number of....

....different places that he thought were wasteful, and the career staff, as they always do, pushed back, and made a million excuses as to why they could not possibly stop spending U.S. taxpayer money. There was a back & forth over the legal arguments, & the W.H. decision was....

....followed, and then it was withdrawn. The Democrats argument for impeachment has not gotten stronger over the last few weeks. As Senator Josh Hawley just said, he’s going to enter a Motion to Dismiss the Impeachment Trial because it’s never actually been brought to trial.”

dudalb 3rd January 2020 11:51 AM

I have been saying from the day of his election Trump will get us into a major war. won't be long until the body bags are coming home.

Stacyhs 3rd January 2020 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B (Post 12941718)
Honestly, given the Principle of Charity, I understood what he meant in that specific instance.

He's still the man who claimed windmills cause cancer. There is no amount of charity that can excuse that one.

SuburbanTurkey 3rd January 2020 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12942012)
I have been saying from the day of his election Trump will get us into a major war. won't be long until the body bags are coming home.

The cynical side of me wonders if Trump wouldn't just time it such that boots on the ground is only after the election.

The public never really minds the missile and bomb portion of these wars, because it's just tons of money and foreigners getting killed. I could see the mouthbreathing war hawks getting excited about a huge bombardment right before the election. Foot patrols getting IED'd comes later.

Stacyhs 3rd January 2020 12:28 PM

We're now being told that the killing of Soleimani was because he was planning an "imminent attack to kill Americans". So far, no details of this alleged imminent attack have been given.

There was a time when we would have believed the POTUS and Sec. of State when they told us why something was done. Now? I don't believe anything either Trump or Pompeo say. Trump has lied so many times that he has no credibility whatsoever and Pompeo is just his arse kissing yes man. When Pompeo assures us that 'the world is a much safer place today' because of Soleimani's death, I put zero stock in it.

Venom 3rd January 2020 12:30 PM

That's the problem with Trump.

He's not put in the work to command respect from most of the country. He's done the opposite and when it comes to serious geopolitical issues he undermines the U.S.' already bad reputation even more.

Davidlpf 3rd January 2020 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12941713)
Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves heís not Putinís puppet. Thereís a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isnít.

Hybrid and electric cars can't come soon enough for me.
Plus where did get the kool-aid and how much, it must be nice to live it that world.

Skeptic Ginger 3rd January 2020 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser (Post 12941587)
Maybe let Iran bomb a top US general now? After all, clearly this is a normal way to deal with international politics?

What will Trump do if that happens?

Obama used drone attacks all the time. (Not saying I agree with that.) And I looked to see ~20 US soldiers per year have been killed in Iraq without Trump saying a word. Now Trump makes a challenge, Iran killed an American contractor, Macho Trump is going to let Iran know and they will cave-in.

They caved alright, by attacking and burning down half of the US Embassy in Iraq.

Trump not just kills an Iranian general, he does it with this big announcement about how tough he is.

Watch this space.....


How coincidental this all happened when Trump felt his ego under attack with the Impeachment. He wants to be seen as the best POTUS ever. He says it all the time. Now that is marred, despite the fact Trump is denying it's a big deal. He's wagging the dog and it's very dangerous.

Horatius 3rd January 2020 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minoosh (Post 12941803)
When Iran topics come up on this forum I always feel compelled to jump in. But I have no idea what, in practice, the 2 countries should do to break out of a decades-long stalemate which, many people would agree, has outlived its usefulness.


And that's the worst part of how Trump is dealing with Iran, because we did have something that, in practice, was starting to break us out of this stalemate. But Trump just couldn't let the Iran Deal stand.

It was working, and could have been the basis for even further constructive engagement between Iran and the US, and the rest of the world. But he just had to screw it up to spite Obama.

Lurch 3rd January 2020 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 12941998)
Trump Tweeted

Christopher Bedford, The Federalist Senior Editor. ďThere is NOTHING NEW in these Emails at all thatís been discovered. Itís exactly what we knew before, which is that the White House & political figures wanted to cut off aid, Trump wanted to question aid to a number of....

....different places that he thought were wasteful, and the career staff, as they always do, pushed back, and made a million excuses as to why they could not possibly stop spending U.S. taxpayer money. There was a back & forth over the legal arguments, & the W.H. decision was....

....followed, and then it was withdrawn. The Democrats argument for impeachment has not gotten stronger over the last few weeks. As Senator Josh Hawley just said, heís going to enter a Motion to Dismiss the Impeachment Trial because itís never actually been brought to trial.Ē

The Federalist Society. An arm of the GOP. Of course they'll gloss over the illegality of violating a law enacted after Nixon withheld duly released congressional funds out of petty, personal motives.

Even if there were reasons found afterward to hold back on delivering Congressionally-released aid to some country, the WH is not entitled to do this. That's Congress's job.

The Administration's now bleating about how the aid was released (only coincidentally just after the jig was up once the whistleblower report became public, they assure us) only bolsters the evidence that the holdup was for spurious reasons. Has the administration ever proffered a report documenting their (or any other body, for that matter) investigation into the reasons for the holding up of aid, and subsequent propriety of its release? Of course not. That would be illegal, insofar as this is the purview of Congress.

dudalb 3rd January 2020 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 12942056)
We're now being told that the killing of Soleimani was because he was planning an "imminent attack to kill Americans". So far, no details of this alleged imminent attack have been given.

There was a time when we would have believed the POTUS and Sec. of State when they told us why something was done. Now? I don't believe anything either Trump or Pompeo say. Trump has lied so many times that he has no credibility whatsoever and Pompeo is just his arse kissing yes man. When Pompeo assures us that 'the world is a much safer place today' because of Soleimani's death, I put zero stock in it.

I shed no tears over Soleimani buying the farm;he had plenty of blood on his hands.
But whether killing him is a wise move is another matter completely. I don't see how his removal solves anything.
It's not like he was irreplaceable genius the way that Yamamoto..another targeted killing... was In World War 2.

Trebuchet 3rd January 2020 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12942148)
I shed no tears over Soleimani buying the farm;he had plenty of blood on his hands.

But whether killing him is a wise move is another matter completely. I don't see how his removal solves anything.

It's not like he was irreplaceable genius the way that Yamamoto..another targeted killing... was In World War 2.

And of course Japan was a country with which we were legally at war.

JoeMorgue 3rd January 2020 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12942188)
And of course Japan was a country with which we were legally at war.

The "legally at war" thing stopped be a distinction soon after either Korean War or WWII depending on how you want to define "legally."

//Still not fully onboard with this particular action per se, just saying

dudalb 3rd January 2020 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 12942132)
And that's the worst part of how Trump is dealing with Iran, because we did have something that, in practice, was starting to break us out of this stalemate. But Trump just couldn't let the Iran Deal stand.

It was working, and could have been the basis for even further constructive engagement between Iran and the US, and the rest of the world. But he just had to screw it up to spite Obama.


I don't trust Iran one bit, but at least with the deal if they cheated we had a strong case in the court of world opinion.
Donnie threw that away.
Yes, the deal was flawed..my own objection was that it did not deal with Iran's troublemaking n the Mid East;it should have covered a broader territory...but that did not justify Trump's just throwing it away with nothing it it's place.

dudalb 3rd January 2020 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12942196)
The "legally at war" thing stopped be a distinction soon after either Korean War or WWII depending on how you want to define "legally."

//Still not fully onboard with this particular action per se, just saying

Yeah, the classic definition of "war" vanished a long time ago ( of course throughout history countries have engagted in military actions without formally being at war...classic example was the Japanese invasion of China in 1937 the so called "China Incident" where Japan and China waged full scale war without and declrations until December 7 1941, when China finally announced a state of war existed (and that was just because it looked good in the US to do after Pearl Harbor).

I think Trump action here was incredibly stupid and ill though out, and might well have disasterous consquences, but I also think the US should take action if there is a clear and present danger. Problem is I see no clear and p resent danger demanding this kind of "Last Resort" action.

dudalb 3rd January 2020 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12942188)
And of course Japan was a country with which we were legally at war.


Hate to say it, but the formal legal definition of war has been dead for a long time.

Ziggurat 3rd January 2020 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 12941858)
Obama did that. Trump just didn't undo it.
So no proof at all.

Well, no. Obama did nothing to expand oil and gas production. It expanded despite him, not because of him. It was driven by technological advances he had no real part in. Trump took action to expand production by opening up federal land to new drilling leases.

Ziggurat 3rd January 2020 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12942305)
I don't trust Iran one bit, but at least with the deal if they cheated we had a strong case in the court of world opinion.

A strong case to do what? Lodge diplomatic protests? Complain at the UN? "World opinion" isn't always very valuable.

acbytesla 3rd January 2020 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12942148)
I shed no tears over Soleimani buying the farm;he had plenty of blood on his hands.
But whether killing him is a wise move is another matter completely. I don't see how his removal solves anything.
It's not like he was irreplaceable genius the way that Yamamoto..another targeted killing... was In World War 2.

I think it was moronic and provocative. It only provides another rallying cry that the Iranian government can use to rally their people.

Steve 3rd January 2020 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12942444)
A strong case to do what? Lodge diplomatic protests? Complain at the UN? "World opinion" isn't always very valuable.

Yeah youíre right. Killing people is the only way forward for the USA.

Ziggurat 3rd January 2020 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 12942448)
Yeah youíre right. Killing people is the only way forward for the USA.

Killing Soleimani is separate from leaving Obamaís Iran deal. We could have killed him while staying in the deal, or not killed him while leaving the deal.

acbytesla 3rd January 2020 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12942452)
Killing Soleimani is separate from leaving Obamaís Iran deal. We could have killed him while staying in the deal, or not killed him while leaving the deal.

The idea that all of this is separate is moronic Zig. The joke is two largest oil producers in the Middle East is Iran and Saudi Arabia. Iran has by far the most pro Western population and yet the US has been screwing over Iran since Mossadegh. Trump has bedded down with the Saudis just like he has been kissing Putin's ass.

Roger Ramjets 3rd January 2020 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12942446)
I think it was moronic and provocative. It only provides another rallying cry that the Iranian government can use to rally their people.

And those of who hate America love it!

Skeptic Ginger 3rd January 2020 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 12941998)
Trump Tweeted

Christopher Bedford, The Federalist Senior Editor. ďThere is NOTHING NEW in these Emails at all thatís been discovered. Itís exactly what we knew before, which is that the White House & political figures wanted to cut off aid, Trump wanted to question aid to a number of....

....different places that he thought were wasteful, and the career staff, as they always do, pushed back, and made a million excuses as to why they could not possibly stop spending U.S. taxpayer money. There was a back & forth over the legal arguments, & the W.H. decision was....

....followed, and then it was withdrawn. The Democrats argument for impeachment has not gotten stronger over the last few weeks. As Senator Josh Hawley just said, heís going to enter a Motion to Dismiss the Impeachment Trial because itís never actually been brought to trial.Ē

If there was nothing to see there, why all the redactions and statements to keep everything secret? :rolleyes:

Another liar for Trump. No surprise given Trump is letting the Federalist Society stack the courts.

Skeptic Ginger 3rd January 2020 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch (Post 12942135)
The [GOP an arm of the] Federalist Society. ....

ftfy

Steve 3rd January 2020 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 12942461)
And those of who hate America love it!

Of course they do.

You do realize that most of the world are not big fans of America at the moment?

Stacyhs 3rd January 2020 07:27 PM

I'm wondering if this assassination was done specifically to make the impeachment more difficult. Bush was not popular before 9/11 but his approval rating soared afterward. Could this have been a calculated move to make Trump appear as if he has 'saved' Americans from this (alleged) "imminent and sinister" attack that he and Pompeo claim was about to occur? In is announcement, Trump stressed how 'under (his) leadership' this alleged attack was stopped. I seriously doubt Trump thought through the possible/likely consequences of this action and was more concerned about the good press he thought this would bring him.

Stacyhs 3rd January 2020 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 12942488)
Of course they do.

You do realize that most of the world are not big fans of America at the moment?

What? Are you saying that the US is not respected worldwide again? How can that be when Trump has told us otherwise? He wouldn't lie...would he?

Steve 3rd January 2020 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 12942498)
What? Are you saying that the US is not respected worldwide again? How can that be when Trump has told us otherwise? He wouldn't lie...would he?

My mistake. You are right. If Trump canít be counted on there is no future for humanity.

acbytesla 3rd January 2020 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 12942495)
I'm wondering if this assassination was done specifically to make the impeachment more difficult. Bush was not popular before 9/11 but his approval rating soared afterward. Could this have been a calculated move to make Trump appear as if he has 'saved' Americans from this (alleged) "imminent and sinister" attack that he and Pompeo claim was about to occur? In is announcement, Trump stressed how 'under (his) leadership' this alleged attack was stopped. I seriously doubt Trump thought through the possible/likely consequences of this action and was more concerned about the good press he thought this would bring him.

The smartest thing Iran could do at this moment is not to react. But Trump seems committed to provoking them into launching some kind of revenge attack. As I see breaking news of another attack on a paramilitary Iranian unit.

Stacyhs 3rd January 2020 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12942508)
The smartest thing Iran could do at this moment is not to react. But Trump seems committed to provoking them into launching some kind of revenge attack. As I see breaking news of another attack on a paramilitary Iranian unit.

WWI started after an assassination of an Austrian archduke and his wife. Few realized what it would lead to.

acbytesla 3rd January 2020 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 12942532)
WWI started after an assassination of an Austrian archduke and his wife. Few realized what it would lead to.

Yep. Serbian Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip.

I doubt this will cause WWIII, but it wouldn't shock me that we'll be at war in the middle east soon. All because Trump is an idiot with balls but severely lacking in brains. And our usual NATO Allies will not be along side us. But Russia and Saudi Arabia will be cheering us on.

JoeMorgue 3rd January 2020 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 12942532)
WWI started after an assassination of an Austrian archduke and his wife. Few realized what it would lead to.

Oh this is completely different.

Post Napoleonic War Europe was a mishmash of dying Empires and rising industrial powers interlinked with a complicated network of treaties and agreements trying to cover a history of ethnic and religious hatred going back decades, all so haphazardly balanced but poorly understood that the first thing that went wrong was going to cause it collapse under it's own weight, all caught between growing powers exerting their influence over the world.

The Middle East is a mishmash of dying Empires and rising industrial powers interlinked with a complicated network of treaties and agreements trying to cover a history of ethnic and religious hatred going back centuries, all so haphazardly balanced but poorly understood that the first thing that goes wrong is going to cause it collapse under it's own weight, all caught between growing powers exerting their influence over the world.

See? Completely different.

Stacyhs 3rd January 2020 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 12942537)
Yep. Serbian Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip.

I doubt this will cause WWIII, but it wouldn't shock me that we'll be at war in the middle east soon. All because Trump is an idiot with balls but severely lacking in brains. And our usual NATO Allies will not be along side us. But Russia and Saudi Arabia will be cheering us on.

No, he was Austrian but killed in Serbia by a Serbian anarchist.

I long ago gave up predicting what would happen in the ME.

SezMe 3rd January 2020 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 12940666)
So, remember Edward Gallagher - the SEAL who was charged with stabbing to death a child who lay in a hospital bed and convicted of posing for photographs with the corpse, who Trump then pardoned? Well, he's got his own clothing line now. This twitter thread highlights issues with that and the way it's being reported.

From the tweet: 'coastal lifestyle brand". I thought the Deplorables hated the coastal elites. :p

Ziggurat 3rd January 2020 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12942548)
The Middle East is a mishmash of dying Empires and rising industrial powers interlinked with a complicated network of treaties and agreements

Yeah, no. Middle eastern empires are all long dead. The only rising industrial power in the region is Israel. And there are very few treaties tying any of them together.


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