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-   -   Roe v. Wade overturned -- this is some BS (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359834)

smartcooky 7th November 2022 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13939612)
Good reason to avoid information meant to panic you.

A teenager who finds out she is pregnant is going to be panicked long before she goes looking for abortion information. THAT is what Blue Mountain means by panicked, not the utter bull-**** you've been spouting.

In any case, that information does NOT panic anyone. She has provided that pamphlet to tens of dozens of teenagers and their moms, and in some cases their dads. The only case of panic is in YOUR head - nowhere else!

RecoveringYuppy 7th November 2022 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13938378)
She consulted with internet and digital privacy specialists in her area (it was actually one of those privacy experts who advocated "cash only" and "burner phones". She also consulted with a defense lawyer (a partner in his firm) not only to determine her own potential jeopardy, but that of anyone she helped.

Cite them please, other people will need them.

RecoveringYuppy 7th November 2022 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13939491)
Again you have failed to address ANY of the points made in the post you have reponded to, all of which were on point and valid, choosing instead to parrot your inflexible dogma.
Quelle Surprise.

The post I responded to was ******** so I posted the opinion of experts.

smartcooky 7th November 2022 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13939624)
The post I responded to was ******** so I posted the opinion of experts.

No, it contained facts... facts that you ignored (unsurprisingly).


Oh, of course, I forgot.. you don't do facts....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n18379kgkh...sand.gif?raw=1

You just ignore them!

smartcooky 7th November 2022 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13939620)
Cite them please, other people will need them.

I will ask her, though I doubt she will give up the Lawyer's name as that would lead straight back to her. Unlike you, she understands the need for privacy when one might be helping someone to bypass the law.

Blue Mountain 8th November 2022 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13939616)
I stand correct on these couple of points where I have it wrong

However, I still maintain there are no guarantees... DuckDuckGo has been shown to have security compromises, and private browsing does not prevent your own device from giving you away should it be seized. The safest bet is, and will remain for the foreseeable future, not to do any searches using your own devices or on your own ISP. A cheap, wifi-enabled "burner" phone, purchased with cash, connected to an open public WiFi such as found in shopping malls, or a prepaid with mobile data is a simple, effective way to prevent anyone from knowing which websites you have been to. You just have to remember not to login to any websites that you are signed up for, so no checking your emails or Facebook messages, etc.

True. I wonder how available these things are to poor people in the USA's South? (Probably more available than I'm thinking. They aren't exactly a third world hell-hole, although they're working on it.)

wareyin 8th November 2022 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain (Post 13940099)
True. I wonder how available these things are to poor people in the USA's South? (Probably more available than I'm thinking. They aren't exactly a third world hell-hole, although they're working on it.)

You can buy prepaid phones at Walmart. Last time I looked (well over a year ago, tbh), they were available in the $30 range.

JoeMorgue 8th November 2022 02:09 PM

It's been a minute so grain of salt and I could be wrong but I think there's a law now that you have to put in SOME kind of identifying info to get a phone line in the US.

smartcooky 8th November 2022 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain (Post 13940099)
True. I wonder how available these things are to poor people in the USA's South? (Probably more available than I'm thinking. They aren't exactly a third world hell-hole, although they're working on it.)


An Alcatel OneTouch PIXI Avion 4G LTE Prepaid Smartphone sell for around US$25 to US$45 depending on where you buy it. Can be bought for cash with no ID as long as you don't buy one from a major retailer such as Walmart or 7-11.

You can even buy a working smartphone cheap from a second hand store. Remember, you don't even have to have a sim card if all you want to do is surf the web. Just connect via the wifi to a free public wifi in a shopping mall

Even better, don't even use the Internet at all. Instead use a cheap flip-type burner phone and call their nationwide free number - 1-800-230-PLAN

cosmicaug 10th November 2022 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13939612)
Good reason to avoid information meant to panic you.

Don't give out advice about information security because someone receiving that advice might panic & forget to apply the information about information security that they wouldn't have applied in the first place had they not received that advice? Yes, that makes total sense.

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicaug (Post 13941347)
Don't give out advice about information security because someone receiving that advice might panic & forget to apply the information about information security that they wouldn't have applied in the first place had they not received that advice? Yes, that makes total sense.

Note that I have cited the experts and recommend people count on them. Do you think they are doing it wrong?

BTW how many days do you think a person should delay getting professional help in the interest of security? The pamphlet recommends obtaining burner phones, setting up VPNs, even getting out of the state by car or bus before talking to a doctor. If the person snail mailing the pamphlet told you to wait for it and claimed it was vital to have it before proceeding you have that delay too. All for a legal process of travelling out of state to obtain a legal abortion. The experts don't recommend that. I think they know what they are talking about and have their priorities straight. You need the professional advice first. The processes they outline will get you in touch with local people who know what you need. Get to them first before wasting days that cut down your options. They know you don't need to waste all that time for this legal procedure. They will talk to you, know what your local risks are, and the risks for your situation.

Why are people so keen to accept the advice of a guy from New Zealand who confused Virginia and West Virginia? Follow the advice, priorities, and non-panic tone of the actual experts.

Mongrel 10th November 2022 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941359)
Note that I have cited the experts and recommend people count on them.

And yet, from the post you keep quoting and managing to miss reading so hard it must be deliberate by now...

Quote:

The pamphlet has a list of clinics in nearby states (with phone numbers and other contact details) who perform abortions, as well as doctors in those states who will supply abortion pills and explain how to use them, but I have left those out.

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mongrel (Post 13941361)
And yet, from the post you keep quoting and managing to miss reading so hard it must be deliberate by now...

Well, in the first place we don't know if those are actual clinics or anti-abortion crisis pregnancy centers. And what do you think that helps? You need more than a phone call to an out of state clinic. And you certainly don't need to wait for snail mail to get that information. You can get those phone numbers straight off the internet immediately. And most people are going to need at least doctor just to help them chose an appropriate state to choose to travel to. You can and should talk to your local doctor. I've cited that advice from the experts multiple times now.

wareyin 10th November 2022 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941367)
Well, in the first place we don't know if those are actual clinics or anti-abortion crisis pregnancy centers.

Wait, you think this pro-abortion woman might be surreptitiously directing people to anti-abortion centers? Why?

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13941387)
Wait, you think this pro-abortion woman might be surreptitiously directing people to anti-abortion centers? Why?

How in the world do you know this person even exists and which side they are on?

And it would be the same reason that she is distributing information meant to panic, misinform, and delay.

wareyin 10th November 2022 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941394)
How in the world do you know this person even exists and which side they are on?

I don't know for a fact that this person exists, but based on the description we have we know which side they are on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941394)
And it would be the same reason that she is distributing information meant to panic, misinform, and delay.

Ah, so it's based off of your faulty interpretation of information given.

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13941416)
Ah, so it's based off of your faulty interpretation of information given.

Even if I have a faulty misunderstanding I'm still saying ignore my advice, go straight to the experts, and ignore some anonymous, potentially fictitious, person who has information that you obtained second hand from a person who doesn't live in this country and confused Virginia and West Virginia.

wareyin 10th November 2022 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941426)
Even if I have a faulty misunderstanding I'm still saying ignore my advice, go straight to the experts,

We all agree on this so far...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941394)
and ignore some anonymous, potentially fictitious, person who has information that you obtained second hand from a person who doesn't live in this country and confused Virginia and West Virginia.

...and here we hit our road block. While it's possible that this person is fictitious (though I consider that a very, very remote possibility), their advice is correct and largely agrees with the advice given by experts. Even the experts you have posted, despite your claims about what those experts actually are saying.

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 10:39 AM

So if she agrees with the experts then we don't her advice, correct? We should just refer people to the experts directly without the pamphlet stage. Agreed?

wareyin 10th November 2022 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941450)
So if she agrees with the experts then we don't her advice, correct? We should just refer people to the experts directly without the pamphlet stage. Agreed?

It appears that you have also misunderstood who her advice was being offered to, and why.

When a woman comes to you asking, in your medical opinion, what her options for abortions are, you are free to not offer that woman this pamphlet that you don't have.

smartcooky 10th November 2022 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941359)
Why are people so keen to accept the advice of a guy from New Zealand who confused Virginia and West Virginia? Follow the advice, priorities, and non-panic tone of the actual experts.

STOP ******* WELL LYING!!!

smartcooky 10th November 2022 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941367)
Well, in the first place we don't know if those are actual clinics or anti-abortion crisis pregnancy centers. And what do you think that helps? You need more than a phone call to an out of state clinic. And you certainly don't need to wait for snail mail to get that information. You can get those phone numbers straight off the internet immediately. And most people are going to need at least doctor just to help them chose an appropriate state to choose to travel to. You can and should talk to your local doctor. I've cited that advice from the experts multiple times now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941394)
How in the world do you know this person even exists and which side they are on?

And it would be the same reason that she is distributing information meant to panic, misinform, and delay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941426)
Even if I have a faulty misunderstanding I'm still saying ignore my advice, go straight to the experts, and ignore some anonymous, potentially fictitious, person who has information that you obtained second hand from a person who doesn't live in this country and confused Virginia and West Virginia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941450)
So if she agrees with the experts then we don't her advice, correct? We should just refer people to the experts directly without the pamphlet stage. Agreed?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ryb9ihx4o...ing2.gif?raw=1

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13941465)
It appears that you have also misunderstood who her advice was being offered to, and why.

??? The post says she offers it to anyone who asks her about abortion. And she is claimed to be a nurse in either Virginia or West Virginia. What do you think I've misunderstood?

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13941479)
STOP ******* WELL LYING!!!

It's post 2171.

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 11:29 AM

No matter how many stupid gifs you post we have no idea who your supposed friend is. It's that freaking simple.

smartcooky 10th November 2022 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941485)
It's post 2171.

Still lying!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2184

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13933484)
Yeah, that's my bad. She had "W Virginia" on her pamphlet, but I dropped the "W" during transcription.

You just cannot help yourself, can you? You have to lie, misrepresent, mischaracterize, keep digging your hole, and keep burying your head in the sand because you are making no headway.

I can only think that you are just pretending to be pro-choice, but are actually anti-abortion. After all, who else but an anti-abortionist would advise pregnant women seeking an abortion that it was not only 100% safe to openly contact abortion providers using their own online devices without taking ANY online security precautions, but indeed, actually advises them to NOT to take security precautions, and to ignore any advice to the contrary.

smartcooky 10th November 2022 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941486)
No matter how many stupid gifs you post we have no idea who your supposed friend is. It's that freaking simple.

You might think the gifs are stupid, but they do describe your position and your arguments to a tee!

wareyin 10th November 2022 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941485)
??? The post says she offers it to anyone who asks her about abortion. And she is claimed to be a nurse in either Virginia or West Virginia. What do you think I've misunderstood?

You've misunderstood who this woman offered her advice to, and why, if you can respond with "We should just refer people to the experts directly". You are not part of that "we", you misunderstood exactly why the experts are advising to cover one's tracks if you think this woman can or should offer direct advice, and you have misunderstood how following your advice to ignore the digital tracks a woman leaves has already resulted in prosecutions.

JoeMorgue 10th November 2022 11:56 AM

This is like the Knox thread and I have never meant anything as a positive comparison less.

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13941497)
and you have misunderstood how following your advice to ignore the digital tracks a woman leaves has already resulted in prosecutions.

No. None of the prosecutions cited had any similarity to legally travelling for a legal abortion. Every one of them would have been helped by getting good advice early.

wareyin 10th November 2022 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941501)
No. None of the prosecutions cited had any similarity to legally travelling for a legal abortion. Every one of them would have been helped by getting good advice early.

Every one of them would have been helped by getting good advice, such as that offered in the pamphlet you misunderstand, and echoed by your own links about covering one's tracks. If people listen to your advice, more prosecutions will happen.

smartcooky 10th November 2022 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wareyin (Post 13941514)
Every one of them would have been helped by getting good advice, such as that offered in the pamphlet you misunderstand, and echoed by your own links about covering one's tracks. If people listen to your advice, more prosecutions will happen.

Emphatic truth, and quoted for such!

smartcooky 10th November 2022 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941501)
No. None of the prosecutions cited had any similarity to legally travelling for a legal abortion. Every one of them would have been helped by getting good advice early.

SO, you have personally checked all 1300+ abortion prosecutions, and none of them could have been avoided by taking security advice? Evidence please?

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13941527)
SO, you have personally checked all 1300+ abortion prosecutions, and none of them could have been avoided by taking security advice? Evidence please?

None of the ones you cited. BTW where did you get 1300? The only source you cited that I saw (the Guardian) said 1700 over 49 years. And none of them was a woman travelling for a legal normal abortion.

As I've said repeatedly there are cases that need security. That would obviously include the ones where you are doing something illegal. But it is far better to get good advice early and do something safe and legal.

The Nebraska case involved improper disposal of the fetus and a dangerously late ill advised self administered abortion. No comparison to simply travelling for a legal abortion. The California case was meth addict in the hospital after a miscarriage. Digital security wouldn't have helped her. No comparison to simply travelling for a legal

RecoveringYuppy 10th November 2022 01:03 PM

I'll just drop yet another link that has a sane view of the current situation and actual threats.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/07...a-health-care/

For example:
Quote:

“Period trackers are not the primary form of digital evidence likely to be used in abortion prosecutions today,” said Kendra Albert, a lawyer with the ​​Cyberlaw Clinic at Harvard Law School, in a Medium post. “If tracking your period is useful to you, you don’t need to stop tracking your period, although you may choose to switch to an app that collects less data and stores it locally.”
But don't stop at that quote. The article has a lot actual reality based information. And note that I'm not saying "reality is perfectly safe" for those you with reading difficulties. I'm explaining what a sane understanding of reality actually is.

BTW that link also repeats the 1,700 over 49 years number that I just cited.

ETA: That article goes on to cite yet another reputable abortion site: https://www.reprolegalhelpline.org/

Note that they don't go around screaming that you have to cover your tracks. You have drill down in to that sites FAQ before you get to something that even mentions the risk of erroneous prosecution. The actual experts do not agree with your priorities on this. Later in the FAQs they point out that the period tracker stuff in your pamphlet is simply wrong.

smartcooky 10th November 2022 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941531)
None of the ones you cited. BTW where did you get 1300? The only source you cited that I saw (the Guardian) said 1700 over 49 years.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...rovi-rcna35268

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941531)
And none of them was a woman travelling for a legal normal abortion.

You have checked all of them personally? I doubt that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941531)
As I've said repeatedly there are cases that need security.

For someone who claims to have repeatedly said this, you sure seem invested in urging abortion seekers to ignore online security advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941531)
That would obviously include the ones where you are doing something illegal. But it is far better to get good advice early and do something safe and legal.

As I have pointed out - again, and again, and again, and again, and again and again... its not just a matter of legality and the laws. In the redneck states that have been or are trying to ban abortion, the legal niceties has never prevented Law Enforcement from harassiing people for "reasons" to make their lives miserable. Blacks, Latinos, trans people, LGBTQ people are all targets for harassment by Law Enforcement, and women seeking abortions are right up there with those targets. There was a case recently where a person was kept in a jail cell for several weeks merely because they had the same name as a felon they had a warrant for, even though the person the were looking for was white and over 50, while the person they had in jail was black and about 30 (and their middle names were different as well). If this had been a pregnant woman looking for an abortion, those weeks could have made all the difference. I have ZERO doubt whatsoever that redneck cops WILL bypass and/or subvert the law to prevent a pregnant teenager getting an abortion . This is not overstated - corruption and cowboy policing is rife in redneck states.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy (Post 13941531)
The Nebraska case involved improper disposal of the fetus and a dangerously late ill advised self administered abortion. No comparison to simply travelling for a legal abortion. The California case was meth addict in the hospital after a miscarriage. Digital security wouldn't have helped her. No comparison to simply travelling for a legal

Had they taken some internet security and not used their own Facebook messaging apps on their own devices, then the evidence of their own messages could not have been used against them. This is an irrefutable, undeniable FACT!

Stacyhs 13th November 2022 07:23 PM

Wow. And I was criticized for a debate a couple pages long regarding the Pelosi attack and glass.

smartcooky 13th November 2022 08:24 PM

Looks like one of The Fat Orange Turd's ****-hole countries...
 
.... is more enlightened and better educated about abortion than most Republicans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/13/w...abortions.html

"Legislators (Benin) voted in October 2021 to decriminalize abortion under most circumstances, allowing it when a pregnancy is likely to cause a woman “material, educational, professional or moral distress.” Previously, abortion was allowed only in cases of rape, incest or fetal abnormalities, or if the mother’s life was at risk."

Of course, most Americans will have never heard of Benin, and even if they did, they wouldn't have the first clue where it is!

bruto 14th November 2022 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13943688)
.... is more enlightened and better educated about abortion than most Republicans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/13/w...abortions.html

"Legislators (Benin) voted in October 2021 to decriminalize abortion under most circumstances, allowing it when a pregnancy is likely to cause a woman “material, educational, professional or moral distress.” Previously, abortion was allowed only in cases of rape, incest or fetal abnormalities, or if the mother’s life was at risk."

Of course, most Americans will have never heard of Benin, and even if they did, they wouldn't have the first clue where it is!

Well, to be fair, Benin is hard to pin down, as there's a little piece of in it just about every museum in the world (except, perhaps, in Benin).

Stacyhs 14th November 2022 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13943688)
.... is more enlightened and better educated about abortion than most Republicans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/13/w...abortions.html

"Legislators (Benin) voted in October 2021 to decriminalize abortion under most circumstances, allowing it when a pregnancy is likely to cause a woman “material, educational, professional or moral distress.” Previously, abortion was allowed only in cases of rape, incest or fetal abnormalities, or if the mother’s life was at risk."

Of course, most Americans will have never heard of Benin, and even if they did, they wouldn't have the first clue where it is!

Most Americans have never Benin there

smartcooky 14th November 2022 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13944487)
Most Americans have never Benin there

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ghtdr2fke...imal.jpg?raw=1


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