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-   -   Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And Thereís Nothing Funny (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324808)

logger 16th November 2017 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12079695)
I wonder how long we'll have to wait for Moore to ask for an independent ethics investigation of the accusations being made against him.

Maybe when a picture pops up? A Polaroid perhaps?

PhantomWolf 16th November 2017 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12079689)
A claimant? That is not proof at all.

No, but their testimony is evidence. Proof is rather high standard for anything, so high that it's not even the standard in a court of law.

Quote:

A witness to the kiss
I haven't heard that she has this, so it would seem to stand in the "if any of Moore's alleged victims have a witness" box.

Quote:

along with this photo is all she needs.
No, the photo doesn't prove her claims, in fact it at best could disprove one of them. (again I'm going to point out, that IMO even pretending to grope someone without their consent is very, very wrong, but it's not actually illegal.)

Quote:

Not to mention his alleged harassment of her the whole time.
Which is the exact same as those that claim Moore harassed and assaulted them.

Quote:

The other perv had allegations of over 40 years ago with no proof except allegation. ;)
The seem the same to me, but the allegations against Moore are far more serious in nature.

Personally, I think both should stand down, Trump and any others in the Government that have done it too.

d4m10n 16th November 2017 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12079691)
We havenít gotten as far as did he actually grab them. There was also a witness to that. Besides, it looks to me like heís touching. Itís clearly assault.

Assault (at least at common law and in most statutes) requires apprehension and awareness on the part of the victim.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_%28tort%29

Brainster 16th November 2017 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12079670)
I do not know, it appears that because she worked at hooters and took sexy pictures and was probably groped worse that... uh.... she should not be complaining about Senator Al Franken groping her or something?

**** if I know.

Anyway, there is a link to her bikini pictures in this thread for some damn reason, but not for slut shaming.

And I, for one, appreciate it. She definitely fills those bikinis to the rim. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that being attractive does not constitute an invitation to grab.

Brainster 16th November 2017 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12079702)
Assault (at least at common law and in most statutes) requires apprehension and awareness. on the part of the victim.

So it's free feelies on any woman asleep or passed out? Fascinating!

PhantomWolf 16th November 2017 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12079691)
it looks to me like heís touching.

We'll have to disagree on that.

Quote:

Itís clearly assault.
Only if he actually grabbed her flack jacket, and even then, good luck with the police, if they won't prosecute guys for grabbing women's breasts in nightclubs, no chance of them being anything for touching one over a flack jacket.

Regnad Kcin 16th November 2017 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12079301)
When you're a star, they'll let you do anything--shove your tongue in their mouth, photograph them in sexually humiliating situations...

Is that your takeaway from what I wrote? If so, please reread my observation and consider it as a perspective.

logger 16th November 2017 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 12079713)


Only if he actually grabbed her flack jacket, and even then, good luck with the police, if they won't prosecute guys for grabbing women's breasts in nightclubs, no chance of them being anything for touching one over a flack jacket.

I would guess youíre wrong on that one.

varwoche 16th November 2017 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12079552)
We are not talking about criminal punishment, but about whether the actions render somebody unfit to serve in an office as high as senator.
IMHO both have done so.
Now criminal charges are a different story (thought I know that the statute of limitations has ran out on what Moore is accused of)

When a person does something bad/immoral/unethical, and they acknowledge what they did, and express remorse for what they did, I don't think they need to lose their job, depending on the particulars. I believe in redemption (non religious).

Quite unlike Moore, Franken owned his behavior, and I hope he isn't run out of office.

logger 16th November 2017 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 12079722)
Is that your takeaway from what I wrote? If so, please reread my observation and consider it as a perspective.

It would be a perspective that doesnít realize where society is with respect to these issues, obviously!

logger 16th November 2017 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12079726)
When a person does something bad/immoral/unethical, and they acknowledge what they did, and express remorse for what they did, I don't think they need to lose their job, depending on the particulars. I believe in redemption (non religious).

Quite unlike Moore, Franken owned his behavior, and I hope he isn't run out of office.

Lol
Yeah, he said he was sorry!

dudalb 16th November 2017 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBentley (Post 12079634)
Jesus.

Mods can we just rename this the "Whataboutism" section of the forum?

Or the "Your're Another" section.....

dudalb 16th November 2017 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12079726)
When a person does something bad/immoral/unethical, and they acknowledge what they did, and express remorse for what they did, I don't think they need to lose their job, depending on the particulars. I believe in redemption (non religious).

Quite unlike Moore, Franken owned his behavior, and I hope he isn't run out of office.

SO if someone says "I'M Sorry" he should not be punished for his behavior?
Nice.

The Big Dog 16th November 2017 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oystein (Post 12079580)
Although it is wrong, it is very likely that Tweeden has experienced a number of sexual harrassments and perhaps even assaults in her life - and very likely more than many other women her age because she is a sexy model and many men perceive her as a pin-up more than as a human being with dignity. And therefore, Ginger seems to question why Tweeden has come out to complain about Al Franken, but not about any other instances of having beem harrassed.

not kidding, literally the worst defense of slut shaming I have ever seen.

Post some NSFW pictures of the accuser to REALLY drive that point home....

Oystein 16th November 2017 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12079650)
Yeah, it is not a lie because her history and her photographs have nothing to do with and do not in any way justify his conduct. Bringing them up is blatant obvious slut shaming.

SG linked the accuser's bikini pictures in this thread and I am being accused of "vile" nonsense

You badly need to drop this vile lie, it reflects disgustingly on your character.

Ginger said nothing - NOTHING!!! - about "justifying" the harrassment. You strategically missed my earlier, full explanation of how you totally misconstrue her argument.

So please stop repeating this obnoxious, clearly malevolent lie.

PhantomWolf 16th November 2017 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainster (Post 12079708)
So it's free feelies on any woman asleep or passed out? Fascinating!

No, d4m10n is playing word games, logger said assault, though I am guessing meant sexual assault. d4m10n is pointing out that you can't actually assault an unaware person because assault is an attack that doesn't connect, but that the person that is being attack is made to believe is supposed to do harm to them. If they are unconscious, then they can't know, so it not assault.

Actually feeling up someone is different because there is real contact.

What you can take is that pretending to feel up a woman while she is asleep is not illegal. It's not right, but it's not illegal.

dudalb 16th November 2017 07:26 PM

This thread is herebye officially declared a Trainwreck.

Oystein 16th November 2017 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12079659)
careful, pointing out that this thread contains a NSFW link to the accuser's bikini pictures for absolutely no *********** purpose whatsoever is a "vile" "lie" or something.

You even manage to misconstrue your own lie. Know no shame?

Regnad Kcin 16th November 2017 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12079406)
There are a number of people on this thread I will rank as hypocrites because they have blasted...quite rightly...Moore for his actions, but are making excuses for Al Franken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12079414)
Sorry, but this "Franken is a Liberal so I will give him a Pass" B.S. won't wash......

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12079431)
I am pretty damn disappointed at the number of people who are basically saying "If he is on our side, let's give him a pass" in this thread.
No better then the people they condemn on the other side for doing the same thing.

Let me stop you after your third try and ask that, if you have an issue with a specific person's contribution, please...be specific. Vague, blanket denunciations (not to mention the faux quote in the second of your posts above) don't help address what you appear to claim is problematic.

PhantomWolf 16th November 2017 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12079724)
I would guess youíre wrong on that one.

I wouldn't

Oystein 16th November 2017 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainster (Post 12079662)
That is the most amazing job of bending over backwards that I have ever seen. I mean, seriously? Her claim is only credible if she mentions the hundred other times some schnook nobody has ever heard of behaved like a jackass to her? What is the point?

I didn't say it's a good point, I said it misses the mark.

But it ain't slut-shaming either.

johnny karate 16th November 2017 07:31 PM

Tweeden's interview with Jake Tapper is very good, and removes any lingering doubts I might have had about her motivations. She comes across as credible and sincere. I have immense respect for her.

And for what its worth, Franken's second apology (not sure if it's been posted or linked in this thread yet) is more articulate and heartfelt than his lame first attempt. He's admitted to what he did and is willing to face the consequences. I find that respectable too.

The Big Dog 16th November 2017 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oystein (Post 12079753)
You badly need to drop this vile lie, it reflects disgustingly on your character.

Ginger said nothing - NOTHING!!! - about "justifying" the harrassment. You strategically missed my earlier, full explanation of how you totally misconstrue her argument.

So please stop repeating this obnoxious, clearly malevolent lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oystein (Post 12079758)
You even manage to misconstrue your own lie. Know no shame?

Uh huh. She just posted nsfw pictures of the accuser to uh... show that she would have been groped before and... therefore... walk us through it again?

Really, love to hear how her history at hooters and her nsfw pictures, you know, fit in here.

Because it seems like blunt slut shaming of the worst type.

dudalb 16th November 2017 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 12079759)
Let me stop you after your third try and ask that, if you have an issue with a specific person's contribution, please...be specific. Vague, blanket denunciations (not to mention the faux quote in the second of your posts above) don't help address what you appear to claim is problematic.

OK:SKeptic Ginger is doing her best to let Franken off the hook.

varwoche 16th November 2017 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12079747)
SO if someone says "I'M Sorry" he should not be punished for his behavior?
Nice.

That's a rather shallow take on things.

Tweeden thinks that Franken's apology was "heartfelt".

Oystein 16th November 2017 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 12079666)
The trouble is that I don't believe Travis is talking about either of these. Rather that what he did was illegal, and so he should be in prison because that's what happens to people who do illegal things. He's not worrying about the legalities of the issue, just that the action was illegal.

However let's break it down. The first question is, should there even be a statue of limitations on Sexual abuse and assault, especially given that we know that it can take years, if not decades, for victims to come forward, be it due to fear of reprisals,of not being believed, or what it could do to their families. Should abuses be able to get away with things just because they managed to intimidate their victims well enough that they don't get accused in time?

If you were to support the view that there should be no time limit to sexual misconduct allegations, then the statement that "Moore should be in Jail" is not at all nonsense, but rather a statement of position against Statue of Limitations on Sex Crimes.

This seems to me to be quite a legitimate comment to make.

Then he should have made it. But even then, the present tensr would almost certainly not apply - either future, as in "this came out now, so prosecute now and send him to jail soon", or past as in "this should have been dealt with long ago and he should have served time already".
Unless you also envision many years of jail time. Which, frankly, would be nonsense.

dudalb 16th November 2017 07:34 PM

So American Politics is coming to this:All that Matters is whether there is a R or a D after you name......

logger 16th November 2017 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 12079760)

USA politics might need to have US law referenced?

dudalb 16th November 2017 07:36 PM

Liberals and Conservatives have one thing in common:Hypocrisy.

johnny karate 16th November 2017 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varwoche (Post 12079776)
That's a rather shallow take on things.

Tweeden thinks that Franken's apology was "heartfelt".

And Franken is willing to go before the Senate Ethics Committee and face the consequences. It doesn't excuse what he did, but at least it's an acknowledgment that he knows he did something wrong.

Oystein 16th November 2017 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12079670)
I do not know, it appears that because she worked at hooters and took sexy pictures and was probably groped worse that... uh.... she should not be complaining about Senator Al Franken groping her or something?

**** if I know.

Anyway, there is a link to her bikini pictures in this thread for some damn reason, but not for slut shaming.

...then she would be inconsistent if she blamed Al Franken ONLY and one could wonder why. (I am not saying this is a good argument, just telling you what the argument is)

And no, it's not slut shaming. You should have dropped that lie a long time ago.

varwoche 16th November 2017 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin (Post 12079759)
Let me stop you after your third try and ask that, if you have an issue with a specific person's contribution, please...be specific. Vague, blanket denunciations (not to mention the faux quote in the second of your posts above) don't help address what you appear to claim is problematic.

I couldn't agree more. Vague denunciations addressed to the air don't give readers (including the purported offenders) a chance to evaluate.

johnny karate 16th November 2017 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12079781)
Liberals and Conservatives have one thing in common:Hypocrisy.

As a Liberal who has been critical of Franken from the outset, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't use such a broad brush.

logger 16th November 2017 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12079784)
And Franken is willing to go before the Senate Ethics Committee and face the consequences. It doesn't excuse what he did, but at least it's an acknowledgment that he knows he did something wrong.

Something?

I think he knows exactly what he did wrong.

Oystein 16th November 2017 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog (Post 12079693)
I have been instructed that pointing that out is a "vile" "lie" because she probably got more groped while working at hooters or wearing a bikini and here are the bikini pictures and therefore ... step two missing...Reelect Al Franken!

Step two ignored. You misconstrue your own lie.

Stacko 16th November 2017 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 12079784)
And Franken is willing to go before the Senate Ethics Committee and face the consequences. It doesn't excuse what he did, but at least it's an acknowledgment that he knows he did something wrong.

The Church of Both Sides must receive it tithes in order to provide cover for the vast hypocrisy gap. It allows the violators to pretend all is equal.

Regnad Kcin 16th November 2017 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf (Post 12079433)
I just have a standard of zero tolerance towards sexual abuse and harassment.

I'll take you at your word. However, I wouldn't be surprised if, out in the real world rather than the clinical arena of an internet discussion forum, you are at least somewhat more understanding of situational nuance.

Quote:

I think that these is a lot of hypocrisy in this, and it's not the first time I have seen it on this board, and in general.
Perhaps; perhaps you exaggerate.

Quote:

Yes there are a number of people saying Franken should go, but what Trump did was fine (and even supporting Moore with a "but we don't know it's true) but there are also though defending Franken with "Boys will be boys" and "It's just backstage messing about" while they are extremely critical of the whole "It's locker room talk" thing. Being in a place of zero tolerance, both situations need to be called out and dealt with, you just don't ignore the actions of your side because they aren't as bad as the other side's actions.
As one who earlier offered a personal perspective regarding backstage behavior, I can assure you I am not "ignor[ing] the actions of [my] side because they aren't as bad as the other side's," I am judging each allegation on its own merits, including the apparent context as well as established patterns pre and post incident.

johnny karate 16th November 2017 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logger (Post 12079791)
Something?

I think he knows exactly what he did wrong.

Right... that's what I said. But thanks for your bizarro world grammatical parsing.

Oystein 16th November 2017 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brainster (Post 12079704)
And I, for one, appreciate it. She definitely fills those bikinis to the rim. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that being attractive does not constitute an invitation to grab.

Correct, and neither Ginger nor I said or implied it did.

The Big Dog 16th November 2017 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oystein (Post 12079785)
...then she would be inconsistent if she blamed Al Franken ONLY and one could wonder why. (I am not saying this is a good argument, just telling you what the argument is)

And no, it's not slut shaming. You should have dropped that lie a long time ago.

Uh huh, she needed to post nsfw pictures to show whe would have had been groped before and was inconsistent, or some contemptible ********.

And the fact you disagree with me makes me lying?

The fact that she has a terrible excuse to post slut shaming pictures and claiming her work history and looks makes her a target for groping does not mean she was not being slut shamed.

Blatant obvious slut shaming. Not sure how you are missing this.

Although I get a kick out of the fact That you disagree with me makes me “lying.” Oh brother.

Post some bikini pictures. They are “relevant.”


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