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-   -   AOC confronts ICE agent shipping kids into corona-infested NYC (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342788)

ChristianProgressive 24th March 2020 06:50 AM

AOC confronts ICE agent shipping kids into corona-infested NYC
 
Is there no end to the depravity of the Immigration Gestapo? They stopped doing this (so they claim) after AOC caught them, filmed them, and this video started making the rounds.

https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPoli...1417133174111/

rockysmith76 24th March 2020 08:38 AM

Facebook is not reliable news, they're not the gestapo and following crappy orders isn't depravity. It doesn't justify them doing it if they did, again, the news source being given to fearmongering conspiracy nonsense, and AOC is a professional gadfly for the far left.

pgwenthold 24th March 2020 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13030740)
Facebook is not reliable news

She posted the video on Twitter herself.

But yeah, it's easier to dismiss it as fake news than address it.

rockysmith76 24th March 2020 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13030743)
She posted the video on Twitter herself.

But yeah, it's easier to dismiss it as fake news than address it.

I did address it, they are following crappy orders and generally deserve a crappy reputation given some of their tactics, as do the CBP, but she is gadfly and little better than Michael Moore some days. Given the source of the post its another day in the land of Outrage Fatigue. Meh...

plague311 24th March 2020 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13030750)
I did address it, they are following crappy orders and generally deserve a crappy reputation given some of their tactics, as do the CBP, but she is gadfly and little better than Michael Moore some days. Given the source of the post its another day in the land of Outrage Fatigue. Meh...

Thank you for giving us a textbook definition of handwaving via ad hom.

Literally. Textbook. Two, two, two fallacies in one!

JoeMorgue 24th March 2020 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13030750)
I did address it, they are following crappy orders and generally deserve a crappy reputation given some of their tactics, as do the CBP, but she is gadfly and little better than Michael Moore some days. Given the source of the post its another day in the land of Outrage Fatigue. Meh...

Yep. ICE is funnelling children into disease incubators but one of the Demmiecrats is being all dramatic about it so they are really to blame.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


I'm so sick of the how much evil people are comfortable with because "The Democrats are being dramatic about it."

I hope if your house catches on fire the fire fighters refuse to put it all until you calm down and stop making such a big deal about it, what with all your goings on about "My children are in there!" and you running around your clothes on fire I mean seriously just calm down if you want to be taken seriously...

rdwight 24th March 2020 09:25 AM

Not big on using the phrase 'trafficking' but to each their own. Can't say that ignorance/indifference is necessarily better than willful intent in this one, but this is a case of the former to me. Good for her to point it out and hopefully have the policy looked at and revised for the current situation.

rockinkt 24th March 2020 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwight (Post 13030810)
Not big on using the phrase 'trafficking' but to each their own. Can't say that ignorance/indifference is necessarily better than willful intent in this one, but this is a case of the former to me. Good for her to point it out and hopefully have the policy looked at and revised for the current situation.

^This^

Cabbage 24th March 2020 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13030740)
Facebook is not reliable news, they're not the gestapo and following crappy orders isn't depravity. It doesn't justify them doing it if they did, again, the news source being given to fearmongering conspiracy nonsense, and AOC is a professional gadfly for the far left.


Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

rockysmith76 24th March 2020 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbage (Post 13030837)
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

not gullible, just seeing it beyond a partisan lense. Who held up the stimulus package? Pelosi and crew. That just draws out the time relief can offset some of the economic damage.

theprestige 24th March 2020 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13030743)
She posted the video on Twitter herself.

But yeah, it's easier to dismiss it as fake news than address it.

Sauce for the Daily Mail is sauce for Facebook.

plague311 24th March 2020 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13030975)
not gullible, just seeing it beyond a partisan lense. Who held up the stimulus package? Pelosi and crew. That just draws out the time relief can offset some of the economic damage.

They held it up because a 500bn slush fund for corporations is ******* stupid, and that money is better served to the people that prop up those organizations.

For instance, **** the cruise industry. The whole thing can burn for all I care. You don't want to pay US taxes? Great, don't get any money. I live here and pay taxes, give me my money back so I can take care of me and mine.

Sherkeu 24th March 2020 11:17 AM

I read that these kids came in from Texas.
What is the main reason ICE would fly six children all the way to NYC at such a bad time? Is the country out of space everywhere else?

I know there are these charities that get money to house them but... NYC?!

I don't understand this at all and I feel so bad for those kids being shuttled around.

theprestige 24th March 2020 11:18 AM

Also, I don't see the problem.

Does someone want to come forward with an unbiased source that explains what the ICE is doing, why this is the policy, and what is actually wrong with the policy?

"They're sending people to New York state, but there's C19 in New York, incompetent gestapo!" doesn't really impress me.

theprestige 24th March 2020 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherkeu (Post 13030994)
I read that these kids came in from Texas.
What is the main reason ICE would fly six children all the way to NYC at such a bad time? Is the country out of space everywhere else?

I know there are these charities that get money to house them but... NYC?!

I don't understand this at all and I feel so bad for those kids being shuttled around.

If only there were a discussion forum dedicated to skeptical inquiry, where we could ask these questions and get answers for them, before deciding how we feel about the situation.

ChristianProgressive 24th March 2020 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13030740)
Facebook is not reliable news, they're not the gestapo and following crappy orders isn't depravity. It doesn't justify them doing it if they did, again, the news source being given to fearmongering conspiracy nonsense, and AOC is a professional gadfly for the far left.

The video in the post was filmed BY AOC and her staff of the encounter.

And yes they are acting just like the Gestapo (my comparison) and following those orders IS depravity. Medical experts are warning over and over about the spread of the virus and prison facilitiies, esp the ICE concentration camps are extremely vulnerable.

And your counter argument consists entirely of ad hom attacks. I note you offer no positive defense of a government agency deliberately shipping kids they have ripped from their families' arms into an infected zone under lockdown.

theprestige 24th March 2020 11:23 AM

It should also be noted that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is -
- a politician
- an outspoken opponent of the President and his policies
- committed to abolishing ICE

For these three reasons, I think it's appropriate to take any claim she makes, and any video she authors and publishes, with a grain of salt. The same way you'd do with any political claim coming from politicians and activists on the right.

If she's posting stuff to make ICE look bad, I want a second opinion from a source that doesn't share her biases.

ChristianProgressive 24th March 2020 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13030975)
not gullible, just seeing it beyond a partisan lense. Who held up the stimulus package? Pelosi and crew. That just draws out the time relief can offset some of the economic damage.

Why was it held up? Because it didn't contain enough direct support for medical professionals and economicly displaced persons but DID contain a half TRILLION dollars in slush funds that Trump could do whatever he wanted to with and ZERO oversight.

The version of the bill being considered now includes more support for doctors, more relief for UE persons, and oversight of the discretionary funds.

I call that a win for the people.

ChristianProgressive 24th March 2020 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherkeu (Post 13030994)
I read that these kids came in from Texas.
What is the main reason ICE would fly six children all the way to NYC at such a bad time? Is the country out of space everywhere else?

I know there are these charities that get money to house them but... NYC?!

I don't understand this at all and I feel so bad for those kids being shuttled around.

A number of those kids have already been "lost in the system". Which leads many to suspect that someone is arranging for that to happen for various nefarious purposes.

Sherkeu 24th March 2020 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13031000)
If only there were a discussion forum dedicated to skeptical inquiry, where we could ask these questions and get answers for them, before deciding how we feel about the situation.

The only reason I could think of is that there is some legal deadline for holding them and there are caretakers in NYC.
Then ICE might not have a choice. Do they? It seems reasonable that there should be some exception for a pandemic! They couldn't do it in a hurricane or flood.

But I really don't know all the rules about it other than finding articles that complain that ICE keep unaccompanied kids longer than legally allowed which is said to be 72hrs.

smartcooky 24th March 2020 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13030989)
Sauce for the Daily Mail is sauce for Facebook.

You're shooting the messenger and handwaving like a conspiracy theorist.

Facebook might be the outlet, but this a first-person, personal record by a member of Congress that she uploaded to her official twitter account. That at least makes the source unimpeachable for its reliability.

Facts are facts, and the truth is the truth, no matter who speaks them.

ChristianProgressive 24th March 2020 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13031005)
It should also be noted that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is -
- a politician
- an outspoken opponent of the President and his policies
- committed to abolishing ICE

So what? Nothing but an extended ad hom attack.

For these three reasons, I think it's appropriate to take any claim she makes, and any video she authors and publishes, with a grain of salt. The same way you'd do with any political claim coming from politicians and activists on the right.

If she's posting stuff to make ICE look bad, I want a second opinion from a source that doesn't share her biases.[/quote]

Ok, how about the last living Nuremberg prosecutor, who has declared Trump's immigrant policy a Crime Against Humanity?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8485606.html

and here's the interview where he actually said it.

https://www.facebook.com/moveon/vide...57716715635968

rdwight 24th March 2020 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13031005)
It should also be noted that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is -
- a politician
- an outspoken opponent of the President and his policies
- committed to abolishing ICE

For these three reasons, I think it's appropriate to take any claim she makes, and any video she authors and publishes, with a grain of salt. The same way you'd do with any political claim coming from politicians and activists on the right.

If she's posting stuff to make ICE look bad, I want a second opinion from a source that doesn't share her biases.

I see no reason to doubt the situation as described, given it's plain to see and pretty straight forward. As for her agenda, I don't think that should get in the way of looking at bad policy for the current crisis. I'm sure there are a number of regular activities the government are doing that will need to be tweaked or changed that haven't already been considered.

I think we can agree there are a few hotspots in the country right now for the virus. Transport to and from them should be limited as much as possible in my opinion. If you don't agree I would like to know why though, because I don't see any human or cost basis where it would make sense to continue as if a pandemic isn't going on.

ChristianProgressive 24th March 2020 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwight (Post 13031038)
If you don't agree I would like to know why though, because I don't see any human or cost basis where it would make sense to continue as if a pandemic isn't going on.

I don't see any human or cost basis where it would make sense to ship 6 kids from TX all the way to NY period.

Sherkeu 24th March 2020 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 13031015)
A number of those kids have already been "lost in the system". Which leads many to suspect that someone is arranging for that to happen for various nefarious purposes.

I don't know what this means. How is a child detained at the border moved around for 'nefarious purposes'. What purpose?
Who benefits by them being 'lost in the system'? The charities?

And who is the 'someone' that is arranging it?

johnny karate 24th March 2020 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwight (Post 13031038)
I see no reason to doubt the situation as described, given it's plain to see and pretty straight forward. As for her agenda, I don't think that should get in the way of looking at bad policy for the current crisis. I'm sure there are a number of regular activities the government are doing that will need to be tweaked or changed that haven't already been considered.

I think we can agree there are a few hotspots in the country right now for the virus. Transport to and from them should be limited as much as possible in my opinion. If you don't agree I would like to know why though, because I don't see any human or cost basis where it would make sense to continue as if a pandemic isn't going on.

Your effort is a noble one, but sadly wasted.

The purpose here isn’t “skeptical inquiry”, it’s only being dressed up as such.

The purpose here is to muddy the waters and deflect attention away from the actual issue.

Babbylonian 24th March 2020 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherkeu (Post 13031048)
I don't know what this means. How is a child detained at the border moved around for 'nefarious purposes'. What purpose?
Who benefits by them being 'lost in the system'? The charities?

Excellent question. Two of the largest and most populous states in the union are on the border with Mexico. Why would it ever be necessary to move any ICE detainee out of that region?

ChristianProgressive 24th March 2020 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherkeu (Post 13031048)
I don't know what this means. How is a child detained at the border moved around for 'nefarious purposes'. What purpose?
Who benefits by them being 'lost in the system'? The charities?

And who is the 'someone' that is arranging it?

Depending on who you ask, the suspicion is that they are being sold into the adoption industry or into the pedophile sex trade.

And the people who are doing it are government officials friendly with the traffickers.

dann 24th March 2020 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13031005)
If she's posting stuff to make ICE look bad, I want a second opinion from a source that doesn't share her biases.


It's probably just my bias talking, but I don't think that theprestige is busy searching for that second opinion from other sources even though he claims that he wants it.

Dr. Keith 24th March 2020 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 13031115)
It's probably just my bias talking, but I don't think that theprestige is busy searching for that second opinion from other sources even though he claims that he wants it.

I have no opinion on what theprestige is doing with his time, but I can guarantee you that the administration is not bothering to put out the facts. They can count on conservatives to dismiss any criticism of ICE by the left without having to say a thing.

smartcooky 24th March 2020 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwight (Post 13031038)
I see no reason to doubt the situation as described, given it's plain to see and pretty straight forward. As for her agenda, I don't think that should get in the way of looking at bad policy for the current crisis. I'm sure there are a number of regular activities the government are doing that will need to be tweaked or changed that haven't already been considered.

Not forgetting, of course, that its people with agendas who often bring these sorts of thing to our attention, usually because its something they care deeply about. Who else is going to do it? The head of ICE? The head of Homeland Security? Moscow Mitch? Leningrad Lindsay? Dump himself?

smartcooky 24th March 2020 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13030740)
AOC is a professional gadfly for the far left.


Being "professional gadfly for the left" means caring about the plight of the young, the elderly, the poor and disadvantaged, the homeless, and the average American working family. Since when has anyone on the right cared about these groups?.

Do you think Trump or any of the human filth currently propping up this administration care one jot about any of the above demographics?

Sherkeu 24th March 2020 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive (Post 13031060)
Depending on who you ask, the suspicion is that they are being sold into the adoption industry or into the pedophile sex trade.

And the people who are doing it are government officials friendly with the traffickers.

Adoption makes no sense unless they were babies. And traffickers wouldn't want the kids in the system at all. They would smuggle them just like the drugs. That is conspiracy land stuff, yes?

So for the sane people, what is the reasoning behind sending these kids all over the country, perhaps far from their parents. Is it the local school systems that can't deal with the influx for kids whose parents are held for serious crimes? Or kids that literally have no parents and no way to find them?

*bit off topic: I think one big problem with these 'centers' is that they build them for pure utility of processing. It makes them look like Guantanamo with those wire fences!
Kids need to be separated, at least initially (not very young kids from mom's though...just make sure it is the real mom!). They also should not be in big groups in case they aren't vaccinated. But those awful ugly prison fences to separate them really do make it look like they are caged. Any kind of temporary structure, with a roof and some calming colors would be much better.

theprestige 24th March 2020 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 13031115)
It's probably just my bias talking, but I don't think that theprestige is busy searching for that second opinion from other sources even though he claims that he wants it.

You misunderstand. I'm not trying to convince you. You're trying to convince me. I'm setting the bar. I can't clear it for you. If you can't be bothered, then your claim dies stillborn, as far as I'm concerned.

GodMark2 24th March 2020 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13031141)
Being "professional gadfly for the left" means caring about the plight of the young, the elderly, the poor and disadvantaged, the homeless, and the average American working family. Since when has anyone on the right cared about these groups?.

Do you think Trump or any of the human filth currently propping up this administration care one jot about any of the above demographics?

April 9, 1865 looks to be one of the most recent examples I can find.

johnny karate 24th March 2020 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13031167)
You misunderstand. I'm not trying to convince you. You're trying to convince me. I'm setting the bar. I can't clear it for you. If you can't be bothered, then your claim dies stillborn, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Cabbage 24th March 2020 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 (Post 13030975)
not gullible, just seeing it beyond a partisan lense. Who held up the stimulus package? Pelosi and crew. That just draws out the time relief can offset some of the economic damage.


The highlighted portion is merely additional evidence for my previous comment, which I will now repeat here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabbage (Post 13030837)
I've seen you claim to be an independent before, but reading this post along with your others, it's clear that your gullible side certainly leans far right.


Cabbage 24th March 2020 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13031184)
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


:thumbsup:

smartcooky 24th March 2020 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 13031184)
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

THIS!

applecorped 24th March 2020 03:12 PM

sanctuary!


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