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-   -   tea party / nazi party (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188825)

Magyar 17th October 2010 11:33 AM

tea party / nazi party
 
NO, I am not making racist anti-Semite comparisons here.


This new exhibit opening in Berlin and it got me thinking.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/16/wo...l?pagewanted=1
Especially beginning with this quote-

“As a person, Hitler was a very ordinary man. He was nothing without the people.”

In this as well as his/Nazi parties populist appeal has many similarities with the Tea Party and it's debutantes like Palin.

The kind of people -( no I am not talking about the racism part here) the "disenfranchised, mostly uneducated in the sense that the vast majority of them like the Tea Party forks today, have neither the temperament or the intellect to try to understand the complex issues;
economy, immigration, unemployment, science and religion
So when a "messiah" comes along who has the ambition, and sadly nothing else, these people are willing to surrender reason and let themselves be led by the nose to anywhere.

Several books have been written and all kinds of statistics bear out that the vast majority of right wing voters vote against their self interest. While one can argue that they are doing this for magnanimous reasons from listening to them it's far more likely that they are bamboozled by the likes of Limbaugh and company.

Just like in the 30's there is a segment of today's powerful who are bending over backwards and against all logic to get Palin elected http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews
or at least to be in a position of power and make every excuse conceivable to explain here stupidity and incompetence.

“Our teachers in the past, were integrated in that system, and I can remember they wanted to tell us that the German people became the first victim of Hitler, that they were practically mugged,” said Klaus Peter Triebel from Seefeld, near Munich.

I think that this quote is spot on for the vast majority of Germans in the 30's as well as the vast majority of the tea partiers today.

Again I don't want to Godwin this or turn it into the racist similarities.

However, I see a lot of similarities - the mostly unintelligent people who make up the tea party whose understanding of issues does not go deeper than the bumper stickers they put on their cars coupled with the disastrous decision of Citizens United I think the climate and the possibility of that road is possible.


Discuss

Grizzly Adams 17th October 2010 11:39 AM

Oh gee, what a surprise. Another "right-wingers/conservatives/tea-partiers are racist/stupid/Nazis" thread.

Remember, folks: ad hominems are only logical fallacies when they're used against you.

Alt+F4 17th October 2010 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magyar (Post 6451433)
In this as well as his/Nazi parties populist appeal has many similarities with the Tea Party and it's debutantes like Palin.

I don't think so.

Quote:

The kind of people -( no I am not talking about the racism part here) the "disenfranchised, mostly uneducated in the sense that the vast majority of them like the Tea Party forks today, have neither the temperament or the intellect to try to understand the complex issues;
"A new Gallup Poll out this morning of 1,033 finds nothing fringe about self-proclaimed Tea Party adherents; they are slightly more likely to be employed, male and definitely more conservative. But otherwise Gallup's Lydia Saad writes, "their age, educational background, employment status, and race -- Tea Partiers are quite representative of the public at large."

and

"According to a New York Times/CBS poll, the 18% of Americans who support the movement are wealthier, more educated, and a lot more pessimistic than average."

rwguinn 17th October 2010 11:52 AM

This thread took longer to make it here than I expected

Sword_Of_Truth 17th October 2010 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magyar (Post 6451433)
NO, I am not making racist anti-Semite comparisons here.

Racism and anti-semitism are not necessary to make smug, self-righteous, stupid and asinine comparisons.

NWO Sentryman 17th October 2010 12:03 PM

Might i also add that when was the last time that they advocated total power in the hands of the state? When has their leadership been centralised to the same extent as the early nazi party? When have they got a militant thug arm that has been beating up left wingers with virtual impunity?

The Charnel Expanse 17th October 2010 12:57 PM

The NSDAP was able to rise quickly because the government of Germany at the time was non-functioning. No such situation exists in the U.S. today

Pardalis 17th October 2010 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams (Post 6451450)
Oh gee, what a surprise. Another "right-wingers/conservatives/tea-partiers are racist/stupid/Nazis" thread.

Remember, folks: ad hominems are only logical fallacies when they're used against you.

Yeah, instead of implying it now they're flat out calling them Nazis. :rolleyes:

0/10 for subtlety.

johnny karate 17th October 2010 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams (Post 6451450)
Oh gee, what a surprise. Another "right-wingers/conservatives/tea-partiers are racist/stupid/Nazis" thread.

Remember, folks: ad hominems are only logical fallacies when they're used against you.

While I disagree with the OP, to be fair, a lot of the "right-wingers/conservatives/tea-partiers are racist/stupid/Nazis" threads are based on right-winger/conservative/tea partiers actually being racist (Carl Paladino), stupid (Christine O'Donnell), and dressing like Nazis (Rich Iott).

Sword_Of_Truth 17th October 2010 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 6451692)
While I disagree with the OP, to be fair, a lot of the "right-wingers/conservatives/tea-partiers are racist/stupid/Nazis" threads are based on right-winger/conservative/tea partiers actually being racist (Carl Paladino), stupid (Christine O'Donnell), and dressing like Nazis (Rich Iott).


By "a lot" you apparently mean three.

NWO Sentryman 17th October 2010 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 6451692)
While I disagree with the OP, to be fair, a lot of the "right-wingers/conservatives/tea-partiers are racist/stupid/Nazis" threads are based on right-winger/conservative/tea partiers actually being racist (Carl Paladino), stupid (Christine O'Donnell), and dressing like Nazis (Rich Iott).

I'll give you the first two, Iott probably wasnt in range of an xbox360 to play Halo Reach, which would have meant that he'd have lived up to being a reall teabagger :cool:;):p

fuelair 17th October 2010 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams (Post 6451450)
Oh gee, what a surprise. Another "right-wingers/conservatives/tea-partiers are racist/stupid/Nazis" thread.

Remember, folks: ad hominems are only logical fallacies when they're used against you.

Well, According to many jokes during the preWWII/WWII pd. Nazis were spoken of as if they were teabaggers (though admittedly that term is of more recent vintage) by conservatives and liberals alike.

While I agree the Nazis had a funny march and wore sillier outfits, they were much better at unison dancing and cheering - our teabaggers look like a fogey collection hunting for their lawn chairs and prune juice so they can sit out and yell at the neighbor kids.

YMMD - but it would be wrong if it does!!:D

Pardalis 17th October 2010 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth (Post 6451721)
By "a lot" you apparently mean three.

How do we call people who make hasty generalizations against an entire group of people again? Bigots right?

johnny karate 17th October 2010 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth (Post 6451721)
By "a lot" you apparently mean three.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardalis (Post 6451760)
How do we call people who make hasty generalizations against an entire group of people again? Bigots right?

In reading my original statement, it seems pretty obvious to me that "a lot" was referring to threads, and not the individuals the threads are about.

But hey, don't let a little something like basic reading comprehension get in the way of your clever zingers.

Dorian Gray 17th October 2010 01:55 PM

Yes, there are 3 or 4 threads about COD alone.

Sword_Of_Truth 17th October 2010 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 6451806)
In reading my original statement, it seems pretty obvious to me that "a lot" was referring to threads, and not the individuals the threads are about.

In reading your original statement, you used individuals names and not thread titles.



EDIT: Bah, Johnny's right. I glossed over the part where he specified "threads" in his OP. These "tea party = terrorist/nazi/racist" threads are so old and tired I kinda tune out while reading them. They're like a bad calculus lecture. This one is arguably the worst and most desperate.

Sword_Of_Truth 17th October 2010 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray (Post 6451819)
Yes, there are 3 or 4 threads about COD alone.

Creating 3 or 4 threads about her doesn't make her 3 or 4 people.

NWO Sentryman 17th October 2010 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray (Post 6451819)
Yes, there are 3 or 4 threads about COD alone.

i thought you were talking about Teabaggers on Call Of Duty there.

Pardalis 17th October 2010 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 6451806)
In reading my original statement, it seems pretty obvious to me that "a lot" was referring to threads, and not the individuals the threads are about.

But hey, don't let a little something like basic reading comprehension get in the way of your clever zingers.

You know, calling the Tea party "Nazis" is far more offensive and disrespectful to History than any one man who plays German soldiers on weekends.

But I guess you're too blinded by your rabid politics to see that.

Ziggurat 17th October 2010 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magyar (Post 6451433)
“As a person, Hitler was a very ordinary man. He was nothing without the people.”

What a bloody stupid quote. Hitler was (thankfully) rather far from ordinary. He was a charismatic sociopath.

Quote:

In this as well as his/Nazi parties populist appeal has many similarities with the Tea Party and it's debutantes like Palin.
Not so much. Hitler was a believer in authoritarian government. The tea party... is opposed to authoritarian government.

Quote:

The kind of people -( no I am not talking about the racism part here) the "disenfranchised, mostly uneducated in the sense that the vast majority of them like the Tea Party forks today, have neither the temperament or the intellect to try to understand the complex issues;
\

Sounds like you're talking about the Democratic base.

Kidding aside, all you're doing here is engaging in an ad hominem attack against the tea party. Sure, you're not saying they're genocidal antisemites, but the actual intellectual validity of your accusation isn't any better, it's just not so offensive.

Quote:

So when a "messiah" comes along who has the ambition, and sadly nothing else, these people are willing to surrender reason and let themselves be led by the nose to anywhere.
Except that's not what's happening. The tea party isn't centralized. You can't lead any large group "by the nose" if it's not centralized.

Quote:

Several books have been written and all kinds of statistics bear out that the vast majority of right wing voters vote against their self interest.
The quality of such "scholarship" is... dubious. Furthermore, given the standard liberal cant about doing things for the good of society, the idea that someone voting against self-interest is inherently a bad thing is more than a touch ironic.

Quote:

While one can argue that they are doing this for magnanimous reasons from listening to them it's far more likely that they are bamboozled by the likes of Limbaugh and company.
If you don't understand someone else's motives, it's not because you fail to grasp something, it's because they're stoopid.

Keep telling yourself that, Magyar. I'm sure it's a comforting fiction.

Quote:

Again I don't want to Godwin this
And yet...

Quote:

However, I see a lot of similarities - the mostly unintelligent people who make up the tea party whose understanding of issues does not go deeper than the bumper stickers they put on their cars coupled with the disastrous decision of Citizens United I think the climate and the possibility of that road is possible.
I suspect you don't have a clue about what Citizens United actually will do. Your own understanding is probably just bumper-sticker deep.

Bob Blaylock 17th October 2010 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magyar (Post 6451433)
Again I don't want to Godwin this…


Except that you had already done so by the time you got to writing this statement. You lose.

elbe 17th October 2010 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock (Post 6452022)
Except that you had already done so by the time you got to writing this statement. You lose.

I'm not really sure that starting a topic with a nazi comparison is really a demonstration of the law.

Ziggurat 17th October 2010 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elbe (Post 6452235)
I'm not really sure that starting a topic with a nazi comparison is really a demonstration of the law.

Sure it is. It's a trivial example, the way that the function f(x) = 0 is a trivial solution to lots of very complex differential equations, but it fits the law perfectly.

johnny karate 17th October 2010 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pardalis (Post 6451995)
You know, calling the Tea party "Nazis" is far more offensive and disrespectful to History than any one man who plays German soldiers on weekends.

But I guess you're too blinded by your rabid politics to see that.

Yeah, except for the part where I expressed a sentiment the exact opposite of what you've accused me, you're spot on:

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny karate (Post 6451692)
While I disagree with the OP, to be fair, a lot of the "right-wingers/conservatives/tea-partiers are racist/stupid/Nazis" threads are based on right-winger/conservative/tea partiers actually being racist (Carl Paladino), stupid (Christine O'Donnell), and dressing like Nazis (Rich Iott).


Sword_Of_Truth 17th October 2010 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 6452012)
Sure, you're not saying they're genocidal antisemites,

No, actually, I believe the OP is indeed calling the Tea Party genocidal anti-semites.

The "racist" and "crazy" labels have failed to stick, and some people, when faced with an unsuccessful strategy, seem to think that the solution is to turn the failed strategy up to 11.

Skeptic 17th October 2010 09:41 PM

Quote:

So when a "messiah" comes along who has the ambition, and sadly nothing else, these people are willing to surrender reason and let themselves be led by the nose to anywhere.
Yup.

No, no. I am not comparing Obama to Hitler. But certainly the messianic fervor by adulating crowds over a anointed leader who will rescue the country, despite having little political experience and no achievements qualifying him to the job, describes the pro-Obama euphoria far better than it describes the tea party's anger.

tyr_13 17th October 2010 10:40 PM

Yes, there are many striking similarities between the Tea Party and the Nazi Party. Of course there are many striking similarities between the American Revolutionists and the Nazi party. What was the point again?

Yes I think there is a danger in populist movements that pander to fear and anger, but that doesn't mean they will always be dangerous.

Sword_Of_Truth 17th October 2010 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyr_13 (Post 6453018)
Yes, there are many striking similarities between the Tea Party and the Nazi Party. Of course there are many striking similarities between the American Revolutionists and the Nazi party. What was the point again?

Don't forget the "Hello Kitty" Fan Club.

Gawdzilla Sama 18th October 2010 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alt+F4 (Post 6451460)
But otherwise Gallup's Lydia Saad writes, "their age, educational background, employment status, and race -- Tea Partiers are quite representative of the public at large."

When helps pin down exactly what type of moron they are.

DC 18th October 2010 05:59 AM

hey, when they can call everyone they dislike a Socialist, why cant we call them Nazis?

Ladewig 18th October 2010 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams (Post 6451450)
Oh gee, what a surprise. Another "right-wingers/conservatives/tea-partiers are racist/stupid/Nazis" thread.

Remember, folks: ad hominems are only logical fallacies when they're used against you.

No one has ever accused me of being a right-wing apologist, but I have to agree with GA here. This thread is an embarrassment to the forum.

Gawdzilla Sama 18th October 2010 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC (Post 6453719)
hey, when they can call everyone they dislike a Socialist, why cant we call them Nazis?

No reason at all that I can see. Except that "selfish, greedy, self-centered bastards" would be more precise.

NoZed Avenger 18th October 2010 07:54 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth (Post 6453036)
Don't forget the "Hello Kitty" Fan Club.


My. God. You're RIGHT.


It goes deeper than we ever imagined. It's KITTIES ALL THE WAY DOWN.

BenBurch 18th October 2010 08:09 AM

I see no similarity other than that both movements had a stink of thuggish ignorance about them.

Ziggurat 18th October 2010 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC (Post 6453719)
hey, when they can call everyone they dislike a Socialist, why cant we call them Nazis?

Well... the Nazis were National Socialists... so...

BenBurch 18th October 2010 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 6454136)
Well... the Nazis were National Socialists... so...

Except that was the name of the party they co-opted, and the name had nothing to do with their policies...

DC 18th October 2010 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 6454136)
Well... the Nazis were National Socialists... so...

and North Korea is Democratic, "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"

Beerina 18th October 2010 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenBurch (Post 6454054)
I see no similarity other than that both movements had a stink of thuggish ignorance about them.

November's-a-comin', buddy.

AlBell 18th October 2010 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenBurch (Post 6454054)
I see no similarity other than that both movements had a stink of thuggish ignorance about them.

Now, now. No reason to insult the current congress, and administration including its' appointees.

Obamacare is good for you! And we may actually read the bill, someday.

BenBurch 18th October 2010 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beerina (Post 6454397)
November's-a-comin', buddy.

Ignorance is always an easy sell to the American public; 40% of them think Evolution is a secular plot, after all. Reality is a very hard sell.

I guess what I am saying is that I hardly care who wins any more; the American people seem to want the country to fail, and I'm inclined to let them have that.

"Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle mérite." - Joseph de Maistre

Ziggurat 18th October 2010 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenBurch (Post 6454155)
Except that was the name of the party they co-opted, and the name had nothing to do with their policies...

Ignore the man behind the curtain!

mhaze 18th October 2010 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 6452012)
What a bloody stupid quote. Hitler was (thankfully) rather far from ordinary. He was a charismatic sociopath.

Not so much. Hitler was a believer in authoritarian government. The tea party... is opposed to authoritarian government...

Hitler was a believer in authoritarian Socialist government.

The crowd in and around the white house seem to believe in trying to be authoritarian, and socialist.....

Just saying...:)

Ladewig 18th October 2010 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhaze (Post 6456542)
Hitler was a believer in authoritarian Socialist government.

The crowd in and around the white house seem to believe in trying to be authoritarian, and socialist.....

Just saying...:)

For a moment, I thought about responding seriously to this post. Then I noticed what thread it is in. Carry on Mhaze, you still have a long way to go before you hit the level of crackpottery outlined in the OP.

Bob Blaylock 18th October 2010 09:10 PM

This may be the most “thunderous” thread yet, which is rather amazing when one considers that Thunder didn't start it, and doesn't yet appear to have participated in it.

GreNME 19th October 2010 12:05 AM

What's amazing about this thread is how wildly outraged some folks are getting at the mere mention of the Tea Party and Nazis in the same sentence, despite the attempts in the OP to remove the two ideologically as much as possible.

I'd disagree in the comparison between the two groups, but not because both grew in strength on the basis of populist ignorance-- in fact, I think that parallel is strikingly accurate-- but instead because of how the two grew and coalesced into a movement. The Nazis took longer and were built upon a different type of scapegoats, so essentially they're operationally and structurally different. The only real similarity is the populist anger, and that's awfully generalized and vague.

If anything, the operations and structure more resemble the Know Nothing movement. A better thread would be to contrast those two.

Trakar 19th October 2010 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alt+F4 (Post 6451460)

"A new Gallup Poll out this morning of 1,033 finds nothing fringe about self-proclaimed Tea Party adherents; they are slightly more likely to be employed, male and definitely more conservative. But otherwise Gallup's Lydia Saad writes, "their age, educational background, employment status, and race -- Tea Partiers are quite representative of the public at large."

and

"According to a New York Times/CBS poll, the 18% of Americans who support the movement are wealthier, more educated, and a lot more pessimistic than average."

First paying lipservice to some nebulous third-party whose only main claim to fame is that they are "none of the above," (ie., those who "support the movement"), is vastly different from agreeing with all of the various and often contradictory positions the sign-carrying advocates and candidates seem to feel represent the core of the party.

wiki's Joe-sixpack seems a good place to look for a typical American, I wonder how the tea party stacks up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_Joe

Most are married without children (28.7%), or single adults living alone (25.5%), with less than a quarter represented by traditional nuclear families.

Median age is 36.8

median income is $28,567

the median education 85.2% have graduated High School, and 53% have "some college" but no degree.

I'd be interested in seeing real tea party demographics, but best I can tell they are the "Angry White Men" of the 90s 20 years on down the road. Sounds like the same group that hijacked the Republican party about the time I quit registering as Republican.

Skeptic 19th October 2010 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic (Post 6452910)
Yup.

No, no. I am not comparing Obama to Hitler. But certainly the messianic fervor by adulating crowds over a anointed leader who will rescue the country, despite having little political experience and no achievements qualifying him to the job, describes the pro-Obama euphoria far better than it describes the tea party's anger.

Forgot to add another example that's too good to pass up:

"He [Obama] is the voice of reason incarnate" -- George Packer, New Yorker columnist.

"Hitler is simply pure reason incarnate" -- Rudolf Hess.

Skeptic 19th October 2010 01:36 AM

By the way, did you notice how Americans so drastically change? When Obama's poll numbers were in the 60s, the country was a great place of home 'n' change, a post-racial heaven of the new rational man. Now that they are in the 40s, the nation has become a hotbed of stupidity and racism.

That 300,000,000 million people drastically changed their worldview from the enlightenment to the dark ages is, after all, SO much more reasonable an explanation of what is going on than that one man not doing too well in a job he clearly didn't have the experience or skills to do.

Of course, all hope is not lost. If Obama's numbers pick up -- if the democrats do well in the midterm elections or the rest of his presidency is successful or both -- then, once again, it will turn out 300,000,000 Americans are sane and post-racial and loving and cool once more.

After all, that, too, would be so much simpler than the alternative explanation: a politician recovering from a slump when experience shows him how to do things better.

Trakar 19th October 2010 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic (Post 6457319)
...That 300,000,000 million people drastically changed their worldview from the enlightenment to the dark ages is, after all, SO much more reasonable an explanation of what is going on than that one man not doing too well in a job he clearly didn't have the experience or skills to do...

These, certainly are not the only two options. I've no great liking of the president, but this is as at least as much the result of a dedicated and well financed, program of political and personal attack, fear mongering and lies promoted by those seeking to personally gain from the diminishment of the administration, as it has been due to any actual presidential missteps or incompetencies.

NoScotsman 19th October 2010 12:42 PM

The "tea party" mentality is also a western-European phenomenon: Complaints about the economy, mixed with a nationalistic backlash to multiculturalism...

Actually, the American variety is pretty bland by comparison. I mean, we've yet to see any actual violence.

Unfortunately, irrational thinking will always accompany bad economic times.


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