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-   -   MAGA brats mock Native American with "build the wall" chants (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334324)

applecorped 22nd January 2019 06:30 AM

Kino Jimenez has no comment

ginjawarrior 22nd January 2019 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572277)
I just did. I can't see any justification for the racist way that the MAGA kids acted. Hooting and hollering like apes at the black people? Really?! Making fun of the Native Americans?

Yes, the Black Isrealites were saying toxic things, but the racist response to them isn't right.

i believe the dance they were doing is called the "sumo"....
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

46 seconds into the video

now there is the choice of colour theme....

but also included in the video is all the other themes they've done
braveheart
grade school
jersey
white out
beach
christmas
toga
buisness man
nerd
hunting
blackout
and blueout

you might beable to say they're just hollaring like apes but i dont think its racist

BobTheCoward 22nd January 2019 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572573)
Yeah, who'd want to discuss stuff on a discussion forum.

Oh, right. That's not why you're here.

My reason is actually different this time. Reread bogative's post. Bogative's was making an argument that the tomahawk chop was not racist because it is context sensitive. The strategy to prove it was context sensitive was by surveying or asking rhetorically if it was racist in a separate context.

I said yes.

Bogative tried to change the subject by saying I made a claim. It is an attempt to escape the fact that bogative's point was invalidated.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572596)
No, they are threatening. Teenage Nazis are still Nazis.

Ken, again, come on. They're not Nazis.

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572610)
Ken, again, come on. They're not Nazis.

Yes, they are. The MAGA hats prove it.

Mike! 22nd January 2019 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572591)
I don't think its a "boys will be boys" situation. The BI have no political power, no economical power, and no power to oppress.

The MAGA teens, however, are part of a large cult of people who have control of the White House and Republican party. They are the greater threat to society.

I see you've dropped the broad brush and moved up to a paint sprayer. :rolleyes:

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 12572612)
I see you've given up the broad brush and moved up to a paint sprayer. :rolleyes:

Broad generalization isn't a fallacy if it is true.

JoeMorgue 22nd January 2019 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12572598)
My phone is acting up so I can't quote it, but someone above said the MAGA kid is 'by no definition a public figure'. I disagree: once someone voluntarily engages in political confrontations in public they become public figures, at least so far as being newsworthy. It's not as if he were quietly at home having political opinions. He engaged strangers, in public, over politics.

Naturally (although this sentence will be ignored) that doesn't mean he deserves whatever results from this ridiculous contretemps; I'm just pointing out that the expectation of privacy doesn't extend when one gets into political confrontations in public.

I agree with the point you're trying to make, but I do want to offer... not a counter point but a... counter clarification if that makes any sense.

Earlier in this thread (I think it was Angrysoba but I'm not 100% sure, mea culpa if I am wrong) brought up the point that at least the people... got outside and talked to people in the real world something a lot of people would do good to try every once and while.

I'm not going to address who was in the right or in the wrong or who belong to what tribe so the points can be accurately tallied up and added to the scoreboard. That's all "Arguing the narrative" nonsense. There is no such thing as "the narrative." Reality is the story, it doesn't have a separate and distinct story being told on top of it.

While you are accurate that... the expectation of privacy does change when you choose to speak in the public space in the more abstract... we should be encouraging face to face encounters like this to a degree.

Other option is we all stay in our bubbles getting drip feed a constant stream out personalized outrage by the algorithm to the point where you get to be Travis where your answer to the Trolley Problem is "Mercy kill everyone on both tracks so they don't have to suffer living in a world where people who wear red hats exist" and I don't see that a preferable to a couple of real world screaming matches.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572611)
Yes, they are. The MAGA hats prove it.

You must be joking.

Are you doing an impression of an extremist left-winger, here?

Mike! 22nd January 2019 06:48 AM

I'll say one thing for this thread, it's certainly separated the reactionaries from the critical thinkers in short order.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572614)
Broad generalization isn't a fallacy if it is true.

If.

I'll echo whas Joe said: Take care not to become Travis.

rdwight 22nd January 2019 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 12572590)
Here's a video of those innocent maga kids allegedly harassing a girl and her friends.

https://www.indy100.com/article/maga...-video-8739981

Those innocent little rascals.

There is literally 2 hours of video of the actual interaction. But an 8 second video of kids that might be from that school yelling out incoherently while girls pass definitely proves they must have initiated the issue with the black and Native American men. That's just math.

TragicMonkey 22nd January 2019 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12572615)
I agree with the point you're trying to make, but I do want to offer... not a counter point but a... counter clarification if that makes any sense.

Earlier in this thread (I think it was Angrysoba but I'm not 100% sure, mea culpa if I am wrong) brought up the point that at least the people... got outside and talked to people in the real world something a lot of people would do good to try every once and while.

I'm not going to address who was in the right or in the wrong or who belong to what tribe so the points can be accurately tallied up and added to the scoreboard. That's all "Arguing the narrative" nonsense. There is no such thing as "the narrative." Reality is the story, it doesn't have a separate and distinct story being told on top of it.

While you are accurate that... the expectation of privacy does change when you choose to speak in the public space in the more abstract... we should be encouraging face to face encounters like this to a degree.

Other option is we all stay in our bubbles getting drip feed a constant stream out personalized outrage by the algorithm to the point where you get to be Travis where your answer to the Trolley Problem is "Mercy kill everyone on both tracks so they don't have to suffer living in a world where people who wear red hats exist" and I don't see that a preferable to a couple of real world screaming matches.

I would say talking to people of different views can be beneficial, but I wouldn't classify anything involving chanting, drumbeating, or rhythmic gestures as a genuine attempt to engage in dialogue. Those are displays of held opinions, not invitations to dialogue or a signal of openness to hearing other ideas.

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572617)
You must be joking.

Are you doing an impression of an extremist left-winger, here?

No. They only reason they aren't full Nazi is because they don't quite have the political power. It's not stopping them from trying, with the concentration camps at the border, imprisonment of a journalist, marginalization of non-white people and demonization of anyone that isn't them.

TragicMonkey 22nd January 2019 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572626)
I'll echo whas Joe said: Take care not to become Travis.

Sometimes the extremiest are handy reminders for the rest of us to keep things in perspective.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572630)
No. They only reason they aren't full Nazi is because they don't quite have the political power. It's not stopping them from trying, with the concentration camps at the border, imprisonment of a journalist, marginalization of non-white people and demonization of anyone that isn't them.

I think you have these kids confused with someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12572631)
Sometimes the extremiest are handy reminders for the rest of us to keep things in perspective.

Agreed.

JoeMorgue 22nd January 2019 06:53 AM

Here's the thing.

Nobody is really acting like they believe "Any level of Trump supports is logically and morally equivalent to being a literal Nazi." They say it because in the "Lookit how outraged (and therefore better) then you I am" game, that's like a Royal Flush, but the don't actually believe. It's just a thing the say to show cause purity.

Right before the Mid-terms David Wong said it really well:

Quote:

I spent every Sunday growing up hearing that the Apocalypse was imminent -- within the year, maybe within the month or the hour. I would call the congregation "doomsday preppers," but here's the thing: They weren't prepping at all. They talked like the apocalypse was coming, describing in chilling detail how soon, the godless government would start beheading Christians. But they weren't spending their spare time stocking water, canned goods, or fuel. They walked out of those sermons about the impending starvation and pestilence and then went home to watch the Chicago Bears.

I don't think they were lying about their beliefs; it's just that those beliefs didn't exist anywhere outside of their skulls. They certainly didn't extend to their feet, which could have carried them to the hardware store to get water purification pills and a [crap]ton of batteries. They never propelled them to the library to study insurgency and guerrilla tactics. They believed the climactic battle with Satan was at hand, but they didn't believe it.

I'm bringing this up now because today I can open up my Twitter feed and see a meme about how only guns and guillotines will end the Trumpocalypse, followed minutes later by that exact same user lavishing praise on Red Dead Redemption 2. ("I'm 70 hours in and barely scratched the surface!")

So now, on the eve of a vote that can reverse the tide of history, I'm curious to see. All that talk for the last two years about how we're living under the new Hitler, do people really believe it? Or is it just, like, a thing we say?
"Red Hat = Nazi" or similar are just... peacock feathers and serve the same purpose.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12572634)
Here's the thing.

Nobody is really acting like they believe "Any level of Trump supports is logically and morally equivalent to being a literal Nazi." They say it because in the "Lookit how outraged (and therefore better) then you I am" game, that's like a Royal Flush, but the don't actually believe. It's just a thing the say to show cause purity.

A sort of virtue signaling, then. I know a lot of people on both sides of the aisle do that quite a bit here.

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 06:54 AM

I'm hardly extreme. I'm just calling it as it is. MAGA people need to be called out for their Nazi-like behavior, whether they are teenagers or not.

The doxxing of these kids is disturbing. I think they simply should be called out and denounced as the hateful idiots that they are.

JoeMorgue 22nd January 2019 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572630)
No. They only reason they aren't full Nazi is because they don't quite have the political power. It's not stopping them from trying, with the concentration camps at the border, imprisonment of a journalist, marginalization of non-white people and demonization of anyone that isn't them.

So when do you suggest the mercy killings should start?

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12572637)
So when do you suggest the mercy killings should start?

I'd like the MAGA people not to get enough power to start their final solution to the immigration problem.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572636)
I'm hardly extreme.

Few extremists call themselves that, like few pessimists call themselves that. They all say they're realists. Fortunately we have other people to judge them instead.

Quote:

I'm just calling it as it is. MAGA people need to be called out for their Nazi-like behavior, whether they are teenagers or not.
Ok I have to ask: what Nazi-like behaviour?

Quote:

The doxxing of these kids is disturbing. I think they simply should be called out and denounced as the hateful idiots that they are.
And what makes them hateful? The MAGA hats? Sounds a bit circular to me.

JoeMorgue 22nd January 2019 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572636)
I'm hardly extreme. I'm just calling it as it is. MAGA people need to be called out for their Nazi-like behavior, whether they are teenagers or not.

The doxxing of these kids is disturbing. I think they simply should be called out and denounced as the hateful idiots that they are.

So why are you not out right now taking these kids out? What kind of coward are you?

I know if I honestly thought that the second/first largest political party (I don't remember if the Dems or Reps are 'bigger' in pure membership, think it was the Reps last time I checked but I'm not sure) in my country were literal Nazis I'd be doing something about it, not cause-gasming online about it.

You say they are Nazi but you're not treating them like Nazis.

That's the problem. Everybody is talking like it's the end of the world but acting like fanboys mad at the new film in the series.

rdwight 22nd January 2019 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572630)
No. They only reason they aren't full Nazi is because they don't quite have the political power. It's not stopping them from trying, with the concentration camps at the border, imprisonment of a journalist, marginalization of non-white people and demonization of anyone that isn't them.

It's a good thing none of that stuff was happening before those Nazi Trump supporters voted.

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572640)
And what makes them hateful? The MAGA hats? Sounds a bit circular to me.

One only need to observe what they support. The rounding up of children into prison camps, the marginalization of non-white people, the hatred of homosexuals, and the support of a would-be authoritarian president.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572639)
I'd like the MAGA people not to get enough power to start their final solution to the immigration problem.

I can assure you that your wet doomsday fantasy won't happen: the MAGA people, as you call them, have just lost power last November. Hell, even when they had, to quote logger, "all the power" they couldn't get anything of substance done except a tax cut. Sounds like they were paralysed even as they held everything in their hands.

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdwight (Post 12572642)
It's a good thing none of that stuff was happening before those Nazi Trump supporters voted.

That's some fallacious logic there, good job, maybe you should take over Huckabee Sanders job.

JoeMorgue 22nd January 2019 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572645)
One only need to observe what they support. The rounding up of children into prison camps, the marginalization of non-white people, the hatred of homosexuals, and the support of a would-be authoritarian president.

Got it. So when should we start the overthrow? When does the revolution commence? We do we pick up arms and take them out?

Or is your answer "Sure I 100% believe we are in the midst of basically a Nazi takeover of the government... but let's not do anything rash like... act like we actually think that."

Three days ago you posted about watching the Orville. How can you watch a sci-fi comedy show when you claim to believe that there are literal Nazis in your government. What kind of monster are you?

angrysoba 22nd January 2019 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12572615)

Earlier in this thread (I think it was Angrysoba but I'm not 100% sure, mea culpa if I am wrong) brought up the point that at least the people... got outside and talked to people in the real world something a lot of people would do good to try every once and while.

Ah, yes, it was me. I think I referred to it as face-to-face banter, which is to say that the actual encounter was, for the most part, actually fairly harmless. There was even, I thought, an element of good-humouredness about it. Sure, there were some people saying some pretty bad things (in particular the Black Hebrew Israelites), but even then I didn't consider the BHI to be in any way violent or threatening.

This is in contrast to online reaction to the event which has been far more destructive, far more threatening and far more rancourous than anything that happened there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey (Post 12572629)
I would say talking to people of different views can be beneficial, but I wouldn't classify anything involving chanting, drumbeating, or rhythmic gestures as a genuine attempt to engage in dialogue. Those are displays of held opinions, not invitations to dialogue or a signal of openness to hearing other ideas.

No, perhaps not, but each in their own way was engaged in some kind of political demonstration. We don't have to agree with the motive for any of those political demonstrations, but again, these groups were not being violent or threatening. I think it is still a more beneficial form of political engagement than say doxing, making baseless, or at the very least flimsy, accusations of racism, and trying to get as outraged as possible online.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572645)
One only need to observe what they support. The rounding up of children into prison camps, the marginalization of non-white people, the hatred of homosexuals, and the support of a would-be authoritarian president.

But do they support it? You don't know. You've oversimplified the problem because it's convenient for you to do so, but you forgot to test that against reality.

I have to echo Joe again and ask: who are you trying to convince that they're Nazis? Certainly not me; you've known me long enough to know I won't bite. Yourself? What would be the point? Other left-wingers here, to prove that you're on their side now and perpetually? That would be sad.

And that's why the idea of having a side at all has always been alien to me. Somehow you always need to provide proof that you're still on that side, 100% and on every issue, topic and question, for fear of becoming a pariah. That makes it sound like the "side" is not really united at all. Besides, I've always been a bit of a loner, so people not hanging out with me because I disagree on some trivial nonsense doesn't sound so bad to me.

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12572649)
Got it. So when should we start the overthrow?

It's already happening, they are losing the political battles all over the nation.

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572651)
But do they support it?

Yes! The fact that they still support Trump is proof of it.

JoeMorgue 22nd January 2019 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572652)
It's already happening, they are losing the political battles all over the nation.

Political battles? Against Nazis? That's insane.

Kill them all. Round them up. No mercy.

Put... your... money... where... your... mouth... is.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572653)
Yes! The fact that they still support Trump is proof of it.

No it isn't. I feel like you didn't read the post you just responded to, because apparently telling you that you're oversimplifying the issue didn't register.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572652)
It's already happening, they are losing the political battles all over the nation.

Sounds like your narrative that they hold political power and are poised to enact their final solution was a bit premature.

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12572654)
Polical battles? Against Nazis? That's insane.

Kill them all. Round them up. No mercy.

Put... your... money... where... your... mouth... is.

That is one of the dumbest posts I've read on this forum. Why do you insist on building such ridiculous straw men?

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572655)
No it isn't. I feel like you didn't read the post you just responded to, because apparently telling you that you're oversimplifying the issue didn't register.



Sounds like your narrative that they hold political power and are poised to enact their final solution was a bit premature.

Go back and read the post. I said that they do NOT have the political power to enact their final solutions.

JoeMorgue 22nd January 2019 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572657)
That is one of the dumbest posts I've read on this forum. Why do you insist on building such ridiculous straw men?

You're the one calling "Wearing a red hat" being a Nazi.

I'll cope.

rdwight 22nd January 2019 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572648)
That's some fallacious logic there, good job, maybe you should take over Huckabee Sanders job.

I think you should look up the definition of fallacious before using it in a sentence.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572658)
Go back and read the post. I said that they do NOT have the political power to enact their final solutions.

You also said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572591)
I don't think its a "boys will be boys" situation. The BI have no political power, no economical power, and no power to oppress.

The MAGA teens, however, are part of a large cult of people who have control of the White House and Republican party. They are the greater threat to society.

So which is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572657)
That is one of the dumbest posts I've read on this forum. Why do you insist on building such ridiculous straw men?

So then they are actual Nazis but there's nothing to worry about. Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Meadmaker 22nd January 2019 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 12572590)
Here's a video of those innocent maga kids allegedly harassing a girl and her friends.

https://www.indy100.com/article/maga...-video-8739981

Those innocent little rascals.

Also, Belz, get over yourself. I never made a big deal out of this before it was shown what happened. I waited for everything to come out.

If you want to try to call me out get your ******* facts straight. Thanks.

I don't get it. Pro Trump demonstrators yelling pro Trump slogans means,.... Oh. And they are rowdy and nearly incoherent teenagers, which means,,....

I just can't fill in the blanks here.

thaiboxerken 22nd January 2019 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572663)
You also said this:



So which is it?

Both. Political power is on a spectrum. They have the power to enact some pretty dangerous and awful things right now, and they are doing that.

JoeMorgue 22nd January 2019 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572663)
So then they are actual Nazis but there's nothing to worry about. Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

And this is what David Wong was getting at talking about the church he was in growing up, where everybody got together on Sunday and talked about how the end was nigh any day now... but then went home and lived perfectly normal lives, not putting any effort or actions into things in the way someone who actually believed what they were saying they believed would do.

Saying "The world is gonna end any day now" is easy. Stockpiling food and ammo and going to live in the woods away from civilization is hard.

Saying "My side are literal Nazis" is easy. Actually acting like they are is hard.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plague311 (Post 12572590)
Also, Belz, get over yourself.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? That doesn't make any sense in context.

I stand by what I said: just as a real threat to someone's life pops up, you declare the thread to have run its course.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572671)
Both. Political power is on a spectrum. They have the power to enact some pretty dangerous and awful things right now, and they are doing that.

They're not. They're kids, and you have no idea what they believe. You assume that you do because it's somehow convenient for you to pretend that.

BobTheCoward 22nd January 2019 07:25 AM

I don't want to talk about fake native American chanting is racist right now, and will settle for a discussion on it being messed up.

I think Seminole tribe chants have lyrics. They are going to appropriate a music tradition and just replace lyrics with meaningless sounds? Its like singing a Chinese song using the words ching chong Bing bong.

But I can't rule out that there are just millions of people out there that think a style of music they don't understand the words of doesn't have any words.

angrysoba 22nd January 2019 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken (Post 12572671)
Both. Political power is on a spectrum. They have the power to enact some pretty dangerous and awful things right now, and they are doing that.

But are they actually Nazis?

If, so should Hitler have been assassinated?

And if so the corollary should not be hard to figure out.

Belz... 22nd January 2019 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12572685)
But are they actually Nazis?

If, so should Hitler have been assassinated?

And if so the corollary should not be hard to figure out.

They're just enough Nazi to be outraged about and villify them, but not quite enough to do anything about them. That's too much work for something one doesn't really believe.

theprestige 22nd January 2019 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572626)
If.



I'll echo whas Joe said: Take care not to become Travis.

I think what Ken is saying is that even though Travis's idiom is... unique... Travis's outlook and mode of thought is actually widespread on the left.

Mike! 22nd January 2019 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12572693)
I think what Ken is saying is that even though Travis's idiom is... unique... Travis's outlook and mode of thought is actually widespread on the left.

And that is what's really freaking scary.

JoeMorgue 22nd January 2019 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12572689)
They're just enough Nazi to be outraged about and villify them, but not quite enough to do anything about them. That's too much work for something one doesn't really believe.

Yep that magic state of a perfectly balanced "I'm angry enough to be have achieved maximum outraged... but not angry enough to act in anyway" that the Causiest of the Cause thinks makes them better than the rest of us.


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