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-   -   No one can grasp 'time'; Not even a scientist (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354560)

Vixen 3rd October 2021 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13617504)
If there was an infinite amount of time in the past, then it would have taken infinite time for time to reach to our present moment. We would never meet the present moment. So, we can't postulate that there was an infinite amount of time before our present moment. But it's also hard to grasp that there was a fixed amount of time in our past and 'nothing before that'. How can we have an idea of what that means? We can't. Conclusion: not even a scientist can grasp 'time' and 'infinity'. Our minds can't grasp it. No math or science can discover this part of reality.
That's one of the mysteries of reality we can only meet with 'awe'.

That is because we are just animals. Our whole being responds to circadian rhythms, moon cycles, seasonal migration. So we count time by these cycles.

That is all time is. We can't see beyond the walls of the cave.

MaartenVergu 3rd October 2021 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vixen (Post 13618146)
That is because we are just animals. Our whole being responds to circadian rhythms, moon cycles, seasonal migration. So we count time by these cycles.

That is all time is. We can't see beyond the walls of the cave.

Yes, that's right. I completely agree. A scientist is just an animal, thinking he can grasp what the mathematics is pointing to, but he can't. Because he can't see beyond the walls of his cave.

Planigale 3rd October 2021 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suren (Post 13617918)
Time and space in relativity theory are tightly connected. That's why it's often called space-time. So "before Bing Bang" is probably a wrong question regardless of how counter intuitive this sounds. By "Big Bang happened" I meant time started with Big Bang.

At least we know what comes after ....

BONG!

Dave Rogers 3rd October 2021 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618143)
It's the complete opposite of arrogance. It's recognizing that we all are small in relation to 'the universe' and its mysteries. And no. No God is mentioned here.

Nor by me. But, no, it's arrogance; you are, in effect, saying "I don't understand infinity on any level, therefore neither does anyone else." Perhaps you might consider the possibility that some people have better understanding than you.

Dave

MaartenVergu 3rd October 2021 03:45 AM

Maybe a happy few can grasp the mysteries of the universe no one understands. But how would we, the people, know? You can't blame us 'arrogance' for not being able to know that someone else know something that we all can't grasp.

Captain_Swoop 3rd October 2021 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618130)
So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius.

Don't judge others by your standard.

What is 'mind-blowing' for you might not be 'mind-blowing' for someone else.

erlando 3rd October 2021 03:55 AM

I suggest this thread be moved to "Religion and Philosophy". It has nothing to do with science and everything to do with the ability of "we, the people" to grasp the concept of infinity.

MaartenVergu 3rd October 2021 03:59 AM

Do you agree that some things we will never know because our ape brain can't possible graps it?

Mojo 3rd October 2021 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618227)
Do you agree that some things we will never know because our ape brain can't possible graps it?


Can you give some examples of these things?

Mojo 3rd October 2021 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618130)
Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13617615)
I can't =/= no one can

There's a lot of things I can't grasp but I don't assume my lack of understanding is universal.

So, you claim you understand all these things? You claim you grasp 'infinity' while it's mind-blowing for most of us? WOW. You must be a real genius.


I think we can safely say that the meaning of P.J. Denyer’s post is something that you failed to grasp.

MaartenVergu 3rd October 2021 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo (Post 13618228)
Can you give some examples of these things?

Infinity, time=0, etc.

Mojo 3rd October 2021 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618235)
Infinity, time=0, etc.


These are concepts that have been produced by our “ape brain”.

MaartenVergu 3rd October 2021 04:33 AM

It's easy to write it on paper in a book you call 'mathematics'.
It's more difficult to really grasp the weight of these concepts.

theprestige 3rd October 2021 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618227)
Do you agree that some things we will never know because our ape brain can't possible graps it?

A lot of people start thinking about this at some point in their lives. Some become philosophers. Some become paranormal believers. Some decide that it's ultimately inconclusive and not worth further serious effort.

All I care about is where you're going with this. Are you just starting to inquire about these things, and are looking for help in how to think through them? Or have you already done your thinking and reached your conclusions? If the latter, could you please just get to whatever your point is?

erlando 3rd October 2021 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618235)
Infinity, time=0, etc.

Mathematicians routinely work with several different types of infinities. They can even order them by size.

Time=0 is mainly a theoretical concept in the big bang theory and is defined as the moment that spacetime came into existance. I'm quite sure that theoretical cosmologists have no problem working with it.

It's quite possible that there exists things that are unknowable. But it's not our "ape brain" that can't know it. It will be physical laws that stand in the way.

MaartenVergu 3rd October 2021 04:45 AM

“I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.” It is one of the most repeated quotes of Richard Feynman (11 May 1918 – 15 February 1988).

That summarises it all.

theprestige 3rd October 2021 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618278)
“I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.” It is one of the most repeated quotes of Richard Feynman (11 May 1918 – 15 February 1988).

That summarises it all.

An appeal to popularity is a terrible summary. Tell us the context of Feynman's statement, and what he meant by it in that context, in your own words.

MaartenVergu 3rd October 2021 05:31 AM

That's something not so difficult to understand: nobody understands quantum physics, says a physicist!
An the whole universe is made of QM;
Ergo; no one understands the universe
QED

erlando 3rd October 2021 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618327)
That's something not so difficult to understand: nobody understands quantum physics, says a physicist!
An the whole universe is made of QM;
Ergo; no one understands the universe
QED

Get to your point already. Or is this it?

erlando 3rd October 2021 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618278)
“I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.” It is one of the most repeated quotes of Richard Feynman (11 May 1918 – 15 February 1988).

That summarises it all.

Because everyone stopped trying 30 years ago... :rolleyes:

MaartenVergu 3rd October 2021 05:48 AM

Ok, I don't understand QM. Maybe scientists do understand it, but I doubt it that they understand it fundamentally.

F.e. Scientists talk about a singularity. But do they really grasp it? It's called 'undefined' in the mathematics of general relativity. The beginning of time and at the center of every black hole is a singularity. But do scientists really understand what the mathematics of a singularity is pointing to?

Captain_Swoop 3rd October 2021 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618227)
Do you agree that some things we will never know because our ape brain can't possible graps it?

What kind of things?

There were lots of things we didn't know but we now know.

How do you decide on which things we will never know?

Captain_Swoop 3rd October 2021 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618265)
It's easy to write it on paper in a book you call 'mathematics'.
It's more difficult to really grasp the weight of these concepts.

For you maybe.

Captain_Swoop 3rd October 2021 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618278)
“I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.” It is one of the most repeated quotes of Richard Feynman (11 May 1918 – 15 February 1988).

That summarises it all.


that was then. How do you know that there aren't people that understand it or it will never be understood?

Captain_Swoop 3rd October 2021 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618338)
Ok, I don't understand QM. Maybe scientists do understand it, but I doubt it that they understand it fundamentally.

have you asked them?
Why would you doubt that those that understand QM don't understand it 'fundamentally'?

Quote:

F.e. Scientists talk about a singularity. But do they really grasp it? It's called 'undefined' in the mathematics of general relativity. The beginning of time and at the center of every black hole is a singularity. But do scientists really understand what the mathematics of a singularity is pointing to?
If they don't why does it mean they never will?

It is an area of active and ongoing research.

Putting your world view and philosophy in the gaps in knowledge will doom them to diminish.

theprestige 3rd October 2021 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618327)
That's something not so difficult to understand: nobody understands quantum physics, says a physicist!
An the whole universe is made of QM;
Ergo; no one understands the universe
QED

You have no idea of the context in which Feynman was speaking, do you? You have no idea who his audience was, what they understood him to be saying, or what actual argument he was developing when he said it. Hell, you don't even know if he was right.

turingtest 3rd October 2021 07:19 AM

All of this has a very familiar ring (ISF from a few years back)- and the repetition hasn't made the "nobody really knows!" wailing any better an argument, it's all still just the usual trying to find a god in the gaps. Seven (and more) years on, and all that's going to happen is the same round-and-round.

Gord_in_Toronto 3rd October 2021 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618278)
“I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.” It is one of the most repeated quotes of Richard Feynman (11 May 1918 – 15 February 1988).

That summarises it all.

What is there to "understand"? We have the equations. The equations work. They make predictions. We use them to engineer products that also work.

Just because QM is different from the macro level world we interact with does not mean it cannot be understood.

P.J. Denyer 3rd October 2021 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto (Post 13618407)
What is there to "understand"? We have the equations. The equations work. They make predictions. We use them to engineer products that also work.

Just because QM is different from the macro level world we interact with does not mean it cannot be understood.

I think what a lot of people fail to understand is that mathematics is a language that describes reality (with great precision) rather than something detached with arbitrary rules used for it's own sake.

shemp 3rd October 2021 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13618175)
At least we know what comes after ....

BONG!

No, it was a lot of complaints about the noise. "I moved to this universe for some peace and quiet!"

Norman Alexander 3rd October 2021 03:53 PM

Here's a MUCH better discussion on QM. Start here, perhaps, and then do more research.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/o...m-physics.html

Steve 3rd October 2021 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander (Post 13618705)
Here's a MUCH better discussion on QM. Start here, perhaps, and then do more research.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/o...m-physics.html

Research? :eek::jaw-dropp:wide-eyed

Hlafordlaes 3rd October 2021 11:16 PM

Yeah, yeah, science is ever evolving, and knowledge is incomplete. However, this does not then lend greater credence to any belief system claiming to "know it all" or deal in absolutes. Sadly, because the "all-knowing" and "eternal truth" memes predate science, the complaint has ever been that because science evolves, it is wrong. Even more tragically, those memes have no grounding of any kind whatsover, and have been a fake, idealized model confusing humanity ever since.

Fact of the matter is, you can't even boil an egg with faith, leading to "egg on your faith".

RolandRat 3rd October 2021 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes (Post 13618906)
Fact of the matter is, you can't even boil an egg with faith

Have you tried?

Susheel 4th October 2021 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRat (Post 13618915)
Have you tried?

Like asking have you tried to fly by tying a red cape around your neck and jumping off the terrace, isn't it?

catsmate 4th October 2021 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13618175)
At least we know what comes after ....

BONG!

The Big Bong......
There's something there.
:D

Kid Eager 4th October 2021 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 13618943)
Like asking have you tried to fly by tying a red cape around your neck and jumping off the terrace, isn't it?

To test this properly, we should attempt to boil an egg by tying a red cape around your neck and jumping off the terrace. If done properly, it will make time more understandable.

Craig4 4th October 2021 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618128)
What are you talking about? Again? I'm new here on the forum. What 'again'?

Uh...maybe there's some background reading you should have done.

Craig4 4th October 2021 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618227)
Do you agree that some things we will never know because our ape brain can't possible graps it?

Newton said something similar about orbital mechanics as I recall. That, it turns out, didn't age well.

Craig4 4th October 2021 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaartenVergu (Post 13618265)
It's easy to write it on paper in a book you call 'mathematics'.
It's more difficult to really grasp the weight of these concepts.

Wait. All this is about your math anxiety? I was never very good in math either but I didn't tell Stephan Hawking and Neil DeGrass Tyson to go home and stop messing about with it.


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