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-   -   (Ed) General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306886)

caveman1917 20th July 2016 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 11397192)
Exactly! We totally agree. qaivucgbnaceipc!



Communication is real. Language isn't.



No it's not. It's just a collective delusion. We all agree that these things called "words" exist, but they don't. It's all just pretend pink unicorns.



Well, duh.



But it isn't.



And we can assign religious significance to events as well. Doesn't mean god exists.



I'm totally into your logic now. It's brilliant!

ktjteyjgfl gikye gyksj miyij ktyr df,

Ziggurat 21st July 2016 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caveman1917 (Post 11397427)
ktjteyjgfl gikye gyksj miyij ktyr df,

xaepruegm. :thumbsup:

Ziggurat 21st July 2016 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11397315)
You don't need to believe in "the unicorn" to tell us why you won't try to build your anarchist society in Belgium.

He's in Belgium? I knew it was Europe, but I didn't know it was the heart of the bureaucratic super-state. The irony is rich.

Mycroft 23rd July 2016 09:43 AM

Wherever he is from, it appears he is unable or unwilling to address the many questions put to him.

Anarchists in general are really good at arguing against everything, but quickly lose interest when you ask them what they're for.

Mycroft 31st July 2016 01:06 PM

Anti-Zionism, Anti-Semitism
 
Last week there were a couple articles that found their way into my news feed that reminded me of recent discussions on this forum.

First:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...link-to-terror

Cynthia McKinney, a former elected member of the US House of Representatives and oft-times conspiratard tweets a conspiracy theory linking Israel to the attacks in Nice France and Munich Germany. Cynthia says;

"Same Israeli photographer captures Nice and Munich tragedies," McKinney, the Green Party's presidential nominee in 2008, tweeted, including a video about the issue.

"How likely is that? Remember the Dancing Israelis?"


Indeed, mustn't forget the dancing Israelis.

It turns out the photographer isn't Israeli but German, but he's married to an Israeli politician, so in McKinney's mind and the mind of the guy who posted the you-tube video she links to, makes the conspiracy theory plausible.

In another article a German University is criticized for holding lectures claiming Israel harvests Palestinian organs:

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German...-organs-462234

Our sons were robbed of their organs,” was the title of a part of the seminar’s course material, Rebecca Seidler, an academic who blew the whistle on the anti-Israel material, told the weekly German-Jewish newspaper Jüdische Allgemeine Zeitung in an article published Thursday.

It doesn't say so in the article, but I noticed that the title of that part of the course reflects an article written back in 2009 by a Swedish journalist named Donald Boström titled "Våra söner plundras på sina organ" ("Our sons are plundered of their organs"), which was so widely criticized that even Electronic Intifada said it was unfounded and unhelpful.

Also, I was able to locate the original publication, thought the translation to English is done by Google and is a bit clumsy;

http://www.juedische-allgemeine.de/a...view/id/26107/

What I notice is that since none of this mentions Jews but only Israel that it's very likely that many who self-identify as anti-Zionist wouldn't recognize this as anti-Semitism, believing incorrectly that the two are wholly different entities.

Childlike Empress 31st July 2016 01:24 PM

http://i.imgur.com/CK0W8T8.jpg?1

caveman1917 31st July 2016 01:30 PM

Rock the Casbah!
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=10877

Childlike Empress 31st July 2016 01:40 PM

QUIEN PODIA IMAGINAR ?
QUE DAVID FUESE GOLIATH

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

CapelDodger 31st July 2016 03:49 PM

Anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are two very different entities.

Jules Galen 31st July 2016 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11416659)
What I notice is that since none of this mentions Jews but only Israel that it's very likely that many who self-identify as anti-Zionist wouldn't recognize this as anti-Semitism, believing incorrectly that the two are wholly different entities.

So, according to you...if I disagree with Israel about its land stealing, this means I also hate Jews?

Meadmaker 31st July 2016 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapelDodger (Post 11416905)
Anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are two very different entities.

But you must admit, they do have quite a bit of overlap. So much so that it's very easy to see the difference in the definitions, but it's much harder to find significant differences in practice. (Except among the aforementioned Orthodox community who don't think a Jewish State should have been established until the Messiah comes.)

Mycroft 31st July 2016 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jules Galen (Post 11416915)
So, according to you...if I disagree with Israel about its land stealing, this means I also hate Jews?

No. I did not say that nor can it be derived from anything that I've said, but if I ever make up bingo cards like the one CE has provided, I'll be sure to include that often repeated straw-man.

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Mycroft 31st July 2016 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapelDodger (Post 11416905)
Anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are two very different entities.

I had absolutely no doubt that would be your opinion. But to get a little deeper, which one do you think Cynthia Mckinney's conspiracy theory falls under?

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Andúril 31st July 2016 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jules Galen (Post 11416915)
So, according to you...if I disagree with Israel about its land stealing, this means I also hate Jews?

I keep constantly hearing that disliking Islam or its teachings -- or daring to suggest that terrorism and other crimes inspired by said Islamic values and teachings just might have something to do with Islam after all -- is equal to Nazi-grade racism towards all people of Muslim background.

Jules Galen 31st July 2016 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11416932)
No. I did not say that nor can it be derived from anything that I've said, but if I ever make up bingo cards like the one CE has provided, I'll be sure to include that often repeated straw-man.

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Then what exactly did you mean to say?

Mycroft 31st July 2016 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jules Galen (Post 11416948)
Then what exactly did you mean to say?

What do you make of the examples I offered in the OP?

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Jules Galen 31st July 2016 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11416954)
What do you make of the examples I offered in the OP?

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I think you are trying to paint yourself as some type of Victim. And really, the pathology is disgusting to behold.

Loss Leader 31st July 2016 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11416659)
Cynthia McKinney, a former elected member of the US House of Representatives and oft-times conspiratard tweets a conspiracy theory linking Israel to the attacks in Nice France and Munich Germany.


For the record, I had the honor of voting for McKinney. I cannot tell you how proud our part of Georgia was to be sending a black woman to Congress.

And then she lost her mind.

Mycroft 31st July 2016 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jules Galen (Post 11416962)
I think you are trying to paint yourself as some type of Victim. And really, the pathology is disgusting to behold.

A victim of what?

Try to avoid the ad hominems. What do you think of the examples from the OP?

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Mycroft 31st July 2016 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loss Leader (Post 11416966)
And then she lost her mind.

You definitely have my sympathy on that. I probably would have voted for her too. :)


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Mycroft 31st July 2016 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress (Post 11416695)

I wasn't able to read all that on my phone, but now that I'm on my PC I can see you've found a way to deliver 25 different straw-man arguments with only one image.

Nice feat, I guess. :confused:

Darth Rotor 31st July 2016 07:11 PM

This is gonna go well.

Not.

Is there a reason that this is not in the General Israeli/Palestinian thread?

Jules Galen 31st July 2016 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor (Post 11417132)
This is gonna go well.

Not.

Is there a reason that this is not in the General Israeli/Palestinian thread?

All I can figure is that the dude wanted his own "Pity Party" thread.

theprestige 31st July 2016 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loss Leader (Post 11416966)
For the record, I had the honor of voting for McKinney. I cannot tell you how proud our part of Georgia was to be sending a black woman to Congress.

And then she lost her mind.

Diversity hires, huh? What are ya gonna do, though?

Hlafordlaes 1st August 2016 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11416659)
Last week there were a couple articles that found their way into my news feed that reminded me of recent discussions on this forum.

The purpose of claims that Jews harvest organs, or the slanders in the Elders of Zion, are all designed to provoke a response of moral outrage and disgust, resulting in the dehumanization of Jews, making them legitimate targets for extreme measures.

Nothing new. Also not new that Europeans can be responsible for centuries of pogroms and injustice, culminating in the Holocaust, and somehow can beat their chests about that with mea culpas while not admitting they made a new homeland/return to Israel a requirement. (This is not a blanket endorsement, however, of all Israeli policies.)

lionking 1st August 2016 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor (Post 11417132)
This is gonna go well.

Not.

Is there a reason that this is not in the General Israeli/Palestinian thread?

Is McKinney a Palestinian or Israeli?

Salerio 1st August 2016 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11416659)
What I notice is that since none of this mentions Jews but only Israel that it's very likely that many who self-identify as anti-Zionist wouldn't recognize this as anti-Semitism, believing incorrectly that the two are wholly different entities.

So if one were to question the antics of the US government and object to their bombing <insert some random middle east country here> then it's a slur on ALL US citizens. Makes perfect sense to me!

trustbutverify 1st August 2016 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11417073)
I wasn't able to read all that on my phone, but now that I'm on my PC I can see you've found a way to deliver 25 different straw-man arguments with only one image.

Nice feat, I guess. :confused:

(((anti-Zionism))) is a helluva drug.

Mycroft 1st August 2016 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salerio (Post 11417430)
So if one were to question the antics of the US government and object to their bombing <insert some random middle east country here> then it's a slur on ALL US citizens. Makes perfect sense to me!

Uhm, no. I did not say that, nor can it be derived from anything I said. Feel free to try again.

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Salerio 1st August 2016 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11417544)
Uhm, no. I did not say that, nor can it be derived from anything I said. Feel free to try again.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

All you're doing is trolling. It's like a parrot when you pull the string "*squark* I didn't say that" "*squark* try again"

It's down to YOU to EXPLICITLY state what it is you mean, because obviously everyone else is unable to comprehend anything you are waffling about. Simply refusing to state your meaning shows you're just trolling and I for one am not going to play anymore.

A'isha 1st August 2016 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salerio (Post 11417634)
All you're doing is trolling. It's like a parrot when you pull the string "*squark* I didn't say that" "*squark* try again"

It's down to YOU to EXPLICITLY state what it is you mean, because obviously everyone else is unable to comprehend anything you are waffling about. Simply refusing to state your meaning shows you're just trolling and I for one am not going to play anymore.

I certainly had no trouble understanding what Mycroft meant: that those news articles reflect anti-Semitism. Because despite their gloss of so-called "anti-Zionism", they are merely reskinned versions of old anti-Semitic canards, namely the conspiracy theory that Jews are the secret puppetmasters behind world events and the ancient "blood libel" slur.

NWO Sentryman 1st August 2016 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapelDodger (Post 11416905)
Anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are two very different entities.

Given how Neo-Nazis tend to flourish in pro-israel groups when they change "jew" for "Zionist", and BDS has serious problems with Holocaust deniers among their ranks, they are much much closer than you think. For instance, if an "anti-zionist" activist talked about the "Zionist Occupation Government", what would you think?

And to be honest, if Israel was the devil it is made to be, they'd have saturated WB/Gaza in VX gas and fed the survivors into woodchippers and livestreamed the whole damn thing.

Mycroft 1st August 2016 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salerio (Post 11417634)
All you're doing is trolling. It's like a parrot when you pull the string "*squark* I didn't say that" "*squark* try again"

It's down to YOU to EXPLICITLY state what it is you mean, because obviously everyone else is unable to comprehend anything you are waffling about. Simply refusing to state your meaning shows you're just trolling and I for one am not going to play anymore.

What A'isha said.

Is it your opinion that Cynthia Mckinney's conspiracy theories about "dancing Israelis" and supposed Israeli culpability in European terrorism are just "Anti-Zionist"?

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Jules Galen 1st August 2016 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha (Post 11417726)
I certainly had no trouble understanding what Mycroft meant: that those news articles reflect anti-Semitism. Because despite their gloss of so-called "anti-Zionism", they are merely reskinned versions of old anti-Semitic canards, namely the conspiracy theory that Jews are the secret puppetmasters behind world events and the ancient "blood libel" slur.

To me, it seems like Mycroft is seeing too many monsters where there are none. And this happens a lot. Some people see any criticism of Israel as some kind of irrational Jew hatred and, at worst, a conspiracy. And dealing with these people is worse than dealing with the 911 Truthers. I swear.

Salerio 1st August 2016 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11417843)
What A'isha said.

Is it your opinion that Cynthia Mckinney's conspiracy theories about "dancing Israelis" and supposed Israeli culpability in European terrorism are just "Anti-Zionist"?

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

I have no opinion about that, I've never heard of her until today. I was commenting on where he posted

"What I notice is that since none of this mentions Jews but only Israel that it's very likely that many who self-identify as anti-Zionist wouldn't recognize this as anti-Semitism, believing incorrectly that the two are wholly different entities."

Which is total nonsense. One can be against the continued settlement policy of the Israeli state, the bulldozing of journalists, the shooting of kids by the army without feeling any ill-will towards Jewish people as a group. The state is NOT the group. As I said one can be against the bombing of middle-east countries by the US government (which has totally messed up the area) without holding every US American guilty. Or hate what The Vatican did to cover up child abuse without feeling any ill-will towards catholics as a whole.

ETA

Where do anti-zionist jews (eg. Jew Torah Jews) fit into the anti-semitic stance?

NWO Sentryman 1st August 2016 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salerio (Post 11418025)
I have no opinion about that, I've never heard of her until today. I was commenting on where he posted

"What I notice is that since none of this mentions Jews but only Israel that it's very likely that many who self-identify as anti-Zionist wouldn't recognize this as anti-Semitism, believing incorrectly that the two are wholly different entities."

Which is total nonsense. One can be against the continued settlement policy of the Israeli state, the bulldozing of journalists, the shooting of kids by the army without feeling any ill-will towards Jewish people as a group. The state is NOT the group. As I said one can be against the bombing of middle-east countries by the US government (which has totally messed up the area) without holding every US American guilty. Or hate what The Vatican did to cover up child abuse without feeling any ill-will towards catholics as a whole.

ETA

Where do anti-zionist jews (eg. Jew Torah Jews) fit into the anti-semitic stance?

There are serious problems with anti-zionists as I explained in post #392. What do when a neo-nazi takes an anti-zionist coat of paint and then rants about the "Zionist Occupied Government" and hides behind "I'm not anti-semitic i'm anti-zionist"?

Mycroft 1st August 2016 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salerio (Post 11418025)
I have no opinion about that, I've never heard of her until today. I was commenting on where he posted

Then you should review OP and form an opinion because that is what this topic is about. If you haven't reviewed the examples given, you couldn't possibly offer informed commentary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salerio (Post 11418025)
Which is total nonsense. One can be against the continued settlement...

Nobody has said otherwise.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Salerio (Post 11418025)
Where do anti-zionist jews (eg. Jew Torah Jews) fit into the anti-semitic stance?

I think it's truly fascinating that even after having been corrected several times, you still think I'm saying all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.

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CapelDodger 1st August 2016 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 11416920)
But you must admit, they do have quite a bit of overlap.

That makes no sense.

Quote:

So much so that it's very easy to see the difference in the definitions, but it's much harder to find significant differences in practice. (Except among the aforementioned Orthodox community who don't think a Jewish State should have been established until the Messiah comes.)
Still making no sense.

A claim that Jews are the sort of people who will harvest organs for profit is anti-semitic. A claim that this sort of thing happens in Israel is anti-Israeli. A claim that Zionism necessarily leads to the sort of state where such things will happen is anti-Zionist.

If you're going to follow the line that any criticism of Zionism or Israel is concealing anti-semitism then you'll see a lot of concealed anti-semitism.

CapelDodger 1st August 2016 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mycroft (Post 11416936)
I had absolutely no doubt that would be your opinion. But to get a little deeper, which one do you think Cynthia Mckinney's conspiracy theory falls under?

Who does she cast as the conspirators?

CapelDodger 1st August 2016 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman (Post 11418035)
There are serious problems with anti-zionists as I explained in post #392. What do when a neo-nazi takes an anti-zionist coat of paint and then rants about the "Zionist Occupied Government" and hides behind "I'm not anti-semitic i'm anti-zionist"?

I'm not an anti-semite, I'm an anti-Zionist.

You do what you gotta do about neo-nazis.


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