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-   -   (Ed) General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3 (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306886)

Ziggurat 9th August 2021 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13564871)
Think about it.

What would be the point of (still) using violence if the Palestinians got all they are entitled to?

They don't agree with you about what they are "entitled" to. This is obvious. How can you be so blind?

Michel H 9th August 2021 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13564899)
Some Palestinians think they are entitled to everything that is current called Israel. So there's no reason to expect the violence to end before they get all that. Indeed, giving them *any* of that - sends the clear message that they should keep using more and more violence to get more and more of the total of what they want.

I believe one should never assume that people are complete idiots, unless one has very good reasons to believe that they actually are.

Assume Israel has left the occupied territories. This would create a more balanced situation that people from both sides can appreciate (most people understand that the others, those who speak the other language for example, have rights too, and matter too). In addition, there is the idea of international legality, respect for the decisions of a neutral international institution (the Security Council) that people can value too.

Michel H 9th August 2021 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13564924)
They don't agree with you about what they are "entitled" to. This is obvious. How can you be so blind?

Who are the "they" you are talking about?

Have you never heard Saeb Erekat when he was talking on CNN?
Quote:

Erekat was one of the more prominent Palestinian spokespeople in the Western media.[17] He wrote extensively in the media about Palestinian statehood,[18] and was a vocal critic of the Trump administration's peace plan.[19]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeb_Erekat#Career).

Michel H 9th August 2021 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13564887)
The Palestinians are 'entitled' to nothing.

"Nothing" is definitely not much. Do you really think it is possible to build peace with such ideas?

Ziggurat 9th August 2021 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13564935)
Who are the "they" you are talking about?

Have you never heard Saeb Erekat when he was talking on CNN?

Hamas, for one. And no amount of pleasing Erekat is going to change Hamas's mind. They are the ones committing terrorism today, they will be the ones doing it tomorrow. And Erekat cannot stop them.

trustbutverify 9th August 2021 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13564921)
What happened in Gaza during the recent Gaza war (in May 2021) was actually closely related to events in East Jerusalem:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_I...lestine_crisis).

This means that, if Israel had given back East Jerusalem to Palestine (which they should have done a long time ago) to comply with international law, there is reasonable ground to think that this conflict simply wouldn't have occurred.

I'm all for Israel leaving E Jerusalem... right after all parties involved waive any and all claims on Israel proper, and sign a binding, nonaggression pact to that effect.

webfusion 9th August 2021 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13564899)
Some Palestinians think they are entitled to everything that is current called Israel. So there's no reason to expect the violence to end before they get all that. Indeed, giving them *any* of that - sends the clear message that they should keep using more and more violence to get more and more of the total of what they want.

Bingo.

They even have official documents ("CHARTERS" or "COVENANTS") that specify exactly that.
I've linked to them previously in this thread, probably more than once.

webfusion 9th August 2021 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13564951)
Hamas, for one. And no amount of pleasing Erekat is going to change Hamas's mind. They are the ones committing terrorism today, they will be the ones doing it tomorrow. And Erekat cannot stop them.

He cannot, because he is dead.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54604782

webfusion 9th August 2021 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13564938)
"Nothing" is definitely not much. Do you really think it is possible to build peace with such ideas?

I used quotes around the word "entitled" -- why did you switch over to the word nothing (as if I said they should get nothing)? Moving the goalposts much?

You are asking, however, if 'building peace' can be achieved? Honestly, not with ideas that Palestinians are deserving of something. Here we are, seeing how they have built up a literal industry of tugging at the heartstrings of TheWorld™ by pointing out their persecution, their pain of being dispossessed, of having millions of refugees, of suffering apartheid, of being genocided, of them owning the entire land, from the sea to the river.
How about showing TheWorld™ an attitude of "can do" --- and start by taking the lead from the Emiratis. It would go a long way towards getting the past century behind them, and joining the 21st Century with some realistic and reasonable goals, and letting Israel assist. We want to, you know.

E. Jerusalem (however you wish to define that area) is not the real problem here.
Rather, it's AlAqsa Mosque and the rest of this 37-acre public park at the center of their demands. Everything they do and say revolves around that point.

The last 11-day military conflict revolved around that.

Michel H 9th August 2021 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13565001)
I used quotes around the word "entitled" -- why did you switch over to the word nothing (as if I said they should get nothing)? Moving the goalposts much?

I don't think I distorted what you said in any way, you wrote:
Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13564887)
The Palestinians are 'entitled' to nothing.

And what about a state, to live side by side with the state of Israel?

Quote:

You are asking, however, if 'building peace' can be achieved? Honestly, not with ideas that Palestinians are deserving of something. Here we are, seeing how they have built up a literal industry of tugging at the heartstrings of TheWorld™ by pointing out their persecution, their pain of being dispossessed, of having millions of refugees, of suffering apartheid, of being genocided, of them owning the entire land, from the sea to the river.
Owning the entire land? That's not the official position of the Palestinian Authority:
Quote:

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said, "The voting in favour of the resolution has not resolved the Palestinian cause, but defined it." He added, "The world said its word that settlement in the Palestinian territories occupied in 1967, including East Jerusalem, is illegal".[42]

He asked Israel "to sit together on the negotiation table to discuss all the outstanding issues between us and resolve it with good intentions", adding: "We are neighbors on this holy land and we want peace."

Including a reference to the Arab Peace Initiative, he stated: "You (Israel) have your state, and we can have our state, and then we can live side-by-side in peace and security." He added, "If you accept, then there are 57 Arab and Islamic countries will be ready to recognize you."[43]

Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said: "this is a day of victory for international law, a victory for civilised language and negotiation and a total rejection of extremist forces in Israel. The international community has told the people of Israel that the way to security and peace is not going to be done through occupation, but rather through peace, ending the occupation and establishing a Palestinian state to live side by side with the state of Israel on the 1967 line."[11]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...4#By_Palestine).

I don't see anything unreasonable about this.

Now, it is true that Hamas is more extremist, but why do you think are there quite a few Palestinians who support Hamas? Perhaps because (from their point of view) legal and polite methods don't seem to give much results, and so they believe only some degree of armed struggle can perhaps produce a few results, in East Jerusalem for example. This seems to point to the responsability of Israel and the U.S..

theprestige 9th August 2021 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13564932)
I believe one should never assume that people are complete idiots, unless one has very good reasons to believe that they actually are.

Complete idiot is kind of extreme, but I do in fact have very good reasons. Thank you for your concern, though.

webfusion 9th August 2021 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13565148)
I don't think I distorted what you said in any way.

The key here is to understand the English language better. At least you are trying.

The Palestinians have no 'entitlement' in any of this. None whatsoever.
They may be eligible, under certain circumstances amid negotiations and concessions by both sides, to form a PalestineState. But it's absolutely 100% not their right or entitlement.
In other words (since you're having some apparent difficulty getting what I said) --- a PalestineState is not destined by some magical 'entitlement' to come into being.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13565148)
And what about a state, to live side by side with the state of Israel?

First of all, the lands of “old” Historical Palestine are not limited to areas that Israel currently occupies. There are several non-contiguous areas which were considered Palestine for the previous centuries, under the Ottomans.

Jordan across the river is today 75% Palestinian.
Syria (Golan Heights) is part of the traditional Palestine lands also. We've been through this. Why are you ignoring it?
S. Lebanon (which was designated as the French Mandate for Palestine, under Sykes-Picot), also was considered "old Palestine" for centuries prior to WW1.
And, of course, Gaza and part of N.Sinai encompass historically Palestine land.

There are 12-million Palestinians worldwide (at last spurious count) and unless there's a State for them to call HOME, this conflict will not end.

Under no conceivable circumstances will either Jordan or Israel want to see yet another Islamic Jihadist radical State arise in the neighborhood.
(It's enough we have ISIL and Hezbollah to deal with still across our borders)

1. AlAqsa is a sticking point. By putting it into the hands of the Jordanian King Abdullah, the Arabs can be satisfied that Jews no longer are seeking its destruction !! (which has never been true, but whatever...)--- and tourism of ALL faiths can continue there, just as it does now, under the status quo.

Jewish prayer area will remain below at the WesternWall.

2. Those Arabs who wish to reject living in their coastal State of Palestine and prefer to remain in the hills and valleys inland, will become Israelis, joining their Arab brethren of Haifa, Jaffa, Be'er Sheva, Lod, etc. as loyal citizens of Israel.

Let's say a half-million or so reject moving, but two million others can appreciate the chance to improve their lives by relocating and developing their own NewNation on the Mediterranean. The Emiratis & Saudis and other nations worldwide will subsidize their efforts. Just as Jews worldwide subsidized the early Zionists. (See: KKL)

3. Perhaps a million Israeli Arabs (already citizens) will also jump at a chance to participate in the building-up of their GoldRush State, and their contribution is vital, since they already have roots and contacts in Israel and can continue to be liaisons and facilitators for Egyptian/Israeli/Jordanian/GazaState coordination of trade and tourism. (Plus, many of them speak Hebrew, which is an asset in this endeavor of forming peaceful relations)

4. Palestinian Bedouins are also part of this, and guess what? Sinai has a population of Bedouins already and they should welcome the opportunity to have a large contingent of their brethren join them, bringing the GCC/EU/USA money along.
(If you don't think they'll know how to spend that cash, you ain't seen Sharm elSheikh!!!!)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13565148)
Owning the entire land? That's not the official position of the Palestinian Authority

It is the official position of the PLO and HAMAS.
Their statements about the Saudi Peace Initiative include the demand for 'return' of those 12-million Arabs into Israel proper. As does BDS, and everyone else who makes the requirement of "return" to "regain their Rights" or whatever phrase is used.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13565148)
Now, it is true that Hamas is more extremist, but why do you think are there quite a few Palestinians who support Hamas? Perhaps because (from their point of view) legal and polite methods don't seem to give much results, and so they believe only some degree of armed struggle can perhaps produce a few results, in East Jerusalem for example. This seems to point to the responsibility of Israel and the U.S.

Again, before the 1967 Six Day War, while Israel occupied NONE (zero) of the lands now being demanded, we were under attack by that armed struggle.

Enough.

This is my suggestion to the Palestinian leadership in Gaza ---- Lay down your weapons, declare yourselves surrendered, raise the white flag, and let the chips fall where they may.

Ziggurat 10th August 2021 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel H (Post 13565148)
Owning the entire land? That's not the official position of the Palestinian Authority:

It's the position of Hamas. And the PA has shown itself incapable of stopping Hamas from launching terrorist attacks. So if the question is whether or not terrorist attacks would stop, then the obvious answer is no, they would not. Whether or not the PA would be satisfied (and no, they still wouldn't be) is actually irrelevant.

Quote:

Now, it is true that Hamas is more extremist, but why do you think are there quite a few Palestinians who support Hamas?
Because they've been indoctrinated since birth to hate Jews. Seriously, do you not know what Palestinians are teaching their children?

Quote:

Perhaps because (from their point of view) legal and polite methods don't seem to give much results, and so they believe only some degree of armed struggle can perhaps produce a few results, in East Jerusalem for example. This seems to point to the responsability of Israel and the U.S..
You still don't even understand what they want. Even the PA, which publicly states that they are OK with the existence of Israel, isn't actually OK with the existence of Israel. They still insist on the "right of return", which would de facto destroy the state of Israel. They know this. They want this. Their public posturing is just for useful idiots who don't understand the situation.

webfusion 10th August 2021 08:55 AM

Switching gears here a bit, this story just in from France:
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/jewis...-france-675906

Coming soon to the USA? I can envision it.
With a bit of anti-Israel bashing thrown in for good measure.
The perfect storm, all leading to blood libels and violence against Jews in North America, using the pandemic as an excuse.

Ziggurat 10th August 2021 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13565664)
Switching gears here a bit, this story just in from France:
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/jewis...-france-675906

Coming soon to the USA? I can envision it.
With a bit of anti-Israel bashing thrown in for good measure.
The perfect storm, all leading to blood libels and violence against Jews in North America, using the pandemic as an excuse.

We shouldn't be surprised. Antisemitism is the canary in the coal mine of global stupidity. And the anti-vaxers are stupid.

webfusion 10th August 2021 01:04 PM

For those who say that Palestinians can't do anything with >N.Sinai<(Expanded Gaza) and they shouldn't be "pushed into the desert" ---
https://www.jpost.com/must/long-awai...n-negev-676236

Israeli resort opens in the desert.

Take a look at what 'desert tourism' can achieve! If I were a Palestinian, offered this chance to do something similar, why would I say 'no thanks" ???

Michel H 10th August 2021 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13565197)
The Palestinians have no 'entitlement' in any of this. None whatsoever.
They may be eligible, under certain circumstances amid negotiations and concessions by both sides, to form a PalestineState. But it's absolutely 100% not their right or entitlement.
In other words (since you're having some apparent difficulty getting what I said) --- a PalestineState is not destined by some magical 'entitlement' to come into being.

Wikipedia explains:
Quote:

Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين‎, romanized: Filasṭīn), officially recognized as the State of Palestine[i] (Arabic: دولة فلسطين‎, romanized: Dawlat Filasṭīn) by the United Nations and other entities, is a de jure sovereign state[20][21] in Western Asia officially governed by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and claiming the West Bank and Gaza Strip[2] with Jerusalem as the designated capital; in practice, however, only partial administrative control is held over the 167 "islands" in the West Bank, and Gaza is ruled by a rival government (Hamas).[iii] The entirety of territory claimed by the State of Palestine has been occupied since 1948, first by Egypt (Gaza Strip) and Jordan (West Bank) and then by Israel after the Six-Day War in 1967.[7][22] Palestine has a population of 5,051,953 as of February 2020, ranked 121st in the world.[23]
...
The State of Palestine has been recognized by 138 of the 193 UN members and since 2012 has had a status of a non-member observer state in the United Nations.[31][32][33] Palestine is a member of the Arab League, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, the G77, the International Olympic Committee, and other international bodies.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine).

So, in other words, the (de jure) State of Palestine does already exist, it is not a mere remote possibility.
I know that you have already attempted to edit wikipedia about this, because you don't like what they say, but fortunately it's not (and shouldn't be) that easy.

Quote:

It is the official position of the PLO and HAMAS.
Their statements about the Saudi Peace Initiative include the demand for 'return' of those 12-million Arabs into Israel proper. As does BDS, and everyone else who makes the requirement of "return" to "regain their Rights" or whatever phrase is used.
You would need to justify this statement about PLO (about them "claiming to own the entire land"):
Quote:

In 1993, the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in peace, accepted UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, and rejected "violence and terrorism". In response, Israel officially recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people.[17]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...n_Organization).
And please do not attempt to edit wikipedia just because you don't like what this online encyclopedia explains.

Quote:

Again, before the 1967 Six Day War, while Israel occupied NONE (zero) of the lands now being demanded, we were under attack by that armed struggle.
This is correct, you're right about this. But I think the situation has much changed and improved for Israel since 1967. Israel is much more accepted now, after it has signed peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan and, more recently, with the United Arab Emirates.

In 1967 (as the links you have posted helped show), Israel faced a real existential threat (not a joke). Now, the so-called "existential threats" to Israel seem to be more propaganda arguments used by the Israeli government (and yourself) than a very real threat. Even Iran has a fairly peaceful government ("theocracy") and is unlikely to try to move in with a large army to try to destroy the State of Israel.

Allen773 10th August 2021 04:46 PM

When Palestinians kill Israelis, it’s terrorism.
When Israelis kill Palestinians, it’s self-defense or whatever.

Let’s just call a spade a spade and admit that this is about hating the scary brown MoOSlems of Palestine.

Do Palestinians have a right to self-defense, or self-determination?

Allen773 10th August 2021 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustbutverify (Post 13564965)
I'm all for Israel leaving E Jerusalem... right after all parties involved waive any and all claims on Israel proper, and sign a binding, nonaggression pact to that effect.

One pluralistic democratic state that privileges no religion over another.

Allen773 10th August 2021 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustbutverify (Post 13564965)
I'm all for Israel leaving E Jerusalem... right after all parties involved waive any and all claims on Israel proper, and sign a binding, nonaggression pact to that effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13564951)
Hamas, for one. And no amount of pleasing Erekat is going to change Hamas's mind. They are the ones committing terrorism today, they will be the ones doing it tomorrow. And Erekat cannot stop them.

In its entire history, Hamas has committed a fraction of the Islamist violence that Israel’s new friends in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and the UAE fund or facilitate in any given year. And the IDF commits war crimes but that’s just their routine, I don’t expect much better from them at this point.

trustbutverify 10th August 2021 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen773 (Post 13566228)
When Palestinians kill Israelis, it’s terrorism.
When Israelis kill Palestinians, it’s self-defense or whatever.

When Israel intentionally targets civilians as a tactic to undermine her enemy's will to battle, it's terrorism. When Palestine intentionally targets civilians to undermine her enemy's will to fight, it's terrorism.

Quote:

Let’s just call a spade a spade and admit that this is about hating the scary brown MoOSlems of Palestine.
Not for me it isn't.

Quote:

Do Palestinians have a right to self-defense, or self-determination?
They have a right to both. Just as the Jewish state does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen773 (Post 13566233)
One pluralistic democratic state that privileges no religion over another.

Once an authentic peace plan is completed, Palestinians can organize their new state of Palestine as they see fit.... pluralistic democracy or not. How Israel chooses to proceed is her business, but I predict Zionism will continue to be essential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen773 (Post 13566238)
In its entire history, Hamas has committed a fraction of the Islamist violence that Israel’s new friends in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and the UAE fund or facilitate in any given year.

Hamas and it's splinter groups have far less resources available for their operations. However, when combined with their collective allies throughout the ME, I'd say they more than hold their own.

Quote:

And the IDF commits war crimes but that’s just their routine, I don’t expect much better from them at this point.
Yes, the IDF commits war crimes, as do their counterparts. I wonder if you expect any better from them at this point.

theprestige 10th August 2021 07:09 PM

I think if we accounted for Hamas disregarding the principle of military distinction, and we accounted for all the civilian casualties arising from Israeli attacks that are both proportional and of military value, we'd discover that Hamas commits a *lot* more warm crimes than the IDF ever does.

Ziggurat 11th August 2021 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen773 (Post 13566228)
When Palestinians kill Israelis, it’s terrorism.
When Israelis kill Palestinians, it’s self-defense or whatever.

Well, yes. The two sides aren't the same. They don't do the same things.

Quote:

Let’s just call a spade a spade and admit that this is about hating the scary brown MoOSlems of Palestine.
Let's just call a spade a spade and admit that this is about antisemitism.

Quote:

Do Palestinians have a right to self-defense, or self-determination?
Hamas's attacks have nothing to do with self-defense. And they don't give a **** about self-determination for Palestinians. They actively oppose it, as all Islamists do.

webfusion 11th August 2021 08:23 AM

Yes, the IDF commits war crimes...

https://apnews.com/article/middle-ea...b131a745318c3e

IDF has announced that the matter (deadly artillery shelling of Gaza on May 13, 2021, killing 6 Palestinians) was now in the hands of a high-level investigative body known as the "General Staff Fact-Finding Assessment Mechanism."

webfusion 12th August 2021 06:01 AM

Addendum to above post:

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-c...mes-hrw-676518

In an amazing announcement, the HRW organization has decided to condemn Palestinians for their atrocities. They even used the words 'war crimes' to describe their actions for the first time, AFAIK.

This new HRW report is a mixed-bag, but at least they are making some effort to be even-handed for a change.

webfusion 22nd August 2021 06:08 AM

Breaking News along the Gaza perimeter fences -- Israeli Border Police officer is shot by 'militant' during rioting.
youtube.com/watch?v=hfFuu71-0d0

Here's a question: Weren't these actions by the Gazan with the pistol totally legitimate?
The crowd was being fired upon from an IDF sniper position, and a few of those people attempted to stop that.

webfusion 24th September 2021 06:05 PM

BooHoo -- AOC literally in tears when the United States Congress goes ahead with supplemental funding for Israel's defensive TAMIR interceptor program -- a system designed to prevent massive losses of Palestinian lives that would otherwise likely occur if the IDF had to conduct Gaza ground operations to prevent incoming rocket fire on our towns & cities.

In other words, the TAMIR anti-rockets are designed to provide a stand-off level of security against terrorist attacks, and thus, enable the IDF troops to avoid entering Gaza and causing substantially more deaths due to engaging in close-quarters combat in order to stop the firing of these missiles at us.

But, to AOC, she's really upset that the United States is supporting this mission of the Israel Defense Forces.

"I wept at the complete lack of care for the human beings that are impacted by these decisions..." she said.

No mention of the complete 'lack of care' that Israel faces when under bombardment from terrorists' indiscriminate rockets.

AOC -- meh.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/alexan...rael-iron-dome

SuburbanTurkey 27th September 2021 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by webfusion (Post 13609713)
BooHoo -- AOC literally in tears when the United States Congress goes ahead with supplemental funding for Israel's defensive TAMIR interceptor program -- a system designed to prevent massive losses of Palestinian lives that would otherwise likely occur if the IDF had to conduct Gaza ground operations to prevent incoming rocket fire on our towns & cities.

In other words, the TAMIR anti-rockets are designed to provide a stand-off level of security against terrorist attacks, and thus, enable the IDF troops to avoid entering Gaza and causing substantially more deaths due to engaging in close-quarters combat in order to stop the firing of these missiles at us.

But, to AOC, she's really upset that the United States is supporting this mission of the Israel Defense Forces.

"I wept at the complete lack of care for the human beings that are impacted by these decisions..." she said.

No mention of the complete 'lack of care' that Israel faces when under bombardment from terrorists' indiscriminate rockets.

AOC -- meh.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/alexan...rael-iron-dome

Israel would be unable or unwilling to pay for their own "Iron Dome" defense system if Big Daddy USA stopped sending them money?

Ziggurat 27th September 2021 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13611377)
Israel would be unable or unwilling to pay for their own "Iron Dome" defense system if Big Daddy USA stopped sending them money?

I'm sure they would. But US funding probably gets us access to data from the program which is extremely useful to us.

And AOC isn't crying because she thinks it's fiscally irresponsible.

SuburbanTurkey 27th September 2021 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13611428)
I'm sure they would. But US funding probably gets us access to data from the program which is extremely useful to us.

And AOC isn't crying because she thinks it's fiscally irresponsible.

So you agree that it's bad faith to suggest that not funding Israel's anti-missile system would lead to an escalation of ground troops in Palestinian territory?

theprestige 27th September 2021 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13611434)
So you agree that it's bad faith to suggest that not funding Israel's anti-missile system would lead to an escalation of ground troops in Palestinian territory?

Rule of so. I do not agree. It's similar to charitable donations. Most charities get by without your money. But you still contribute to the causes you believe in. Preventing an escalation of ground troops is not a cause AOC believes in. The idea of contributing to this cause grieves her so much that she actually weeps to see it happen.

It's US policy to support this cause. I think it's a cause worth supporting and a good policy. I think it's absolutely bad faith to suggest it's a cause worth supporting but also be opposed to supporting it. AOC, at least, seems to honest in her antipathy towards Israel.

SuburbanTurkey 27th September 2021 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13611471)
Rule of so. I do not agree. It's similar to charitable donations. Most charities get by without your money. But you still contribute to the causes you believe in. Preventing an escalation of ground troops is not a cause AOC believes in. The idea of contributing to this cause grieves her so much that she actually weeps to see it happen.

It's US policy to support this cause. I think it's a cause worth supporting and a good policy. I think it's absolutely bad faith to suggest it's a cause worth supporting but also be opposed to supporting it. AOC, at least, seems to honest in her antipathy towards Israel.

It seems strange that the US would pay the defense tab for another wealthy nation.

theprestige 27th September 2021 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13611478)
It seems strange that the US would pay the defense tab for another wealthy nation.

Dunno why. Western nations often pool resources and make joint contributions to causes of mutual interest.

But again, here's the bad faith: Suggesting it's a cause worth supporting but also being opposed to supporting it. AOC, at least, seems to be honest in her antipathy towards Israel.

SuburbanTurkey 27th September 2021 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13611488)
Dunno why. Western nations often pool resources and make joint contributions to causes of mutual interest.

But again, here's the bad faith: Suggesting it's a cause worth supporting but also being opposed to supporting it. AOC, at least, seems to be honest in her antipathy towards Israel.

Yes, I suppose Israel routinely violating international law regarding the rights of Palestinians does leave plenty of room to be opposed to gifting them money. The United State's refusal to insist that Israel obey international law has played a large role in preventing any meaningful sanction from the international community that would incentivize a peace process, which is something that a US congress rep might find objectionable.

It's worth pointing out that Israel's need for robust war spending has a lot to do with their belligerent refusal to make good-faith efforts towards meaningful peace with the occupied Palestinian territories.

theprestige 27th September 2021 08:02 AM

And there it is.

SuburbanTurkey 27th September 2021 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13611504)
And there it is.

Is this some gotcha?

This criticism of Israel is hardly new nor secret.

Rep. Omar, for example, is quite direct:

Quote:

Omar declined an interview request on Friday, but in a series of tweets ahead of Thursday's vote, the Minnesota Democrat said that "given the human rights violations in Gaza, Sheikh Jarrah, and ever-growing settlement expansion, we should not be ramming through a last-minute $1 billion increase in military funding for Israel without any accountability." She added in a later tweet, "we continue to pay lip service to human rights, peace and a two state solution. Yet we also continue to provide Israel with funding without addressing the underlying issue of the occupation."
https://www.startribune.com/omar-one...ing/600100514/

cmikes 27th September 2021 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13611478)
It seems strange that the US would pay the defense tab for another wealthy nation.


Did you support President Trump's position that NATO countries should pay for at least some of their own defense instead of the US picking up the tab?

SuburbanTurkey 27th September 2021 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmikes (Post 13611577)
Did you support President Trump's position that NATO countries should pay for at least some of their own defense instead of the US picking up the tab?

Sure, either these countries should carry their own burden or NATO should start winding down. Of all the blunders Trump committed, this was one of the less objectionable.

theprestige 27th September 2021 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey (Post 13611578)
Sure, either these countries should carry their own burden or NATO should start winding down. Of all the blunders Trump committed, this was one of the less objectionable.

Do you agree that it's bad faith to suggest that this was a good policy proposal, and yet also suggest that it was an objectionable blunder?

SuburbanTurkey 27th September 2021 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 13611581)
Do you agree that it's bad faith to suggest that this was a good policy proposal, and yet also suggest that it was an objectionable blunder?

The broad strokes of such a demand seem fair enough to me, I'm assuming Trump would have executed in some idiotic way that would have been counterproductive, as he does most things.


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