International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   USA Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   The Jan. 6 Investigation (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353105)

Crazy Chainsaw 20th August 2021 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 13576383)
Yeah, it's really weird that a coup planned by Rudy Giuliani, Mo Brooks, Ali Alexander and the lady from Publix would be so poorly coordinated.

You have absolutely no Idea How dumb the Insurrection actually was.

Stacyhs 20th August 2021 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13576359)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
An attempted coup doesn't have to be coordinated or well organized.
In principle, it's logically possible for such an attempt to be purely spur of the moment. But that wasn't what was under discussion. Going back one more post in the exchange, this is what theprestige asked about, which Parsman's post was in response to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Tell me more. Tell me about the coup plot. Tell me about the conspiracy to assassinate government officials. Who were the ringleaders of this plot? Who were the operatives? Where are the informers who blew the conspiracy wide open?
"FBI investigators did find that cells of protesters, including followers of the far-right Oath Keepers and Proud Boys groups, had aimed to break into the Capitol. But they found no evidence that the groups had serious plans about what to do if they made it inside, the sources said."

I wasn't discussing Parsman's statement about assassinating gov't officials. That's why I didn't quote it or reply to it. My reply was to your post regarding the FBI report and whether it was an attempted coup or not.

The FBI only says they were disorganized and had no clear plans about what they were going to do after they stopped the verification. But that's the Proud Boys' et al. own incompetency and short-sightedness. No one has ever accused them of being smart. That does not mean they weren't trying to overturn the election. What else do you think "Stop the Steal" means? That they were against shoplifting? Identification theft?

Stacyhs 20th August 2021 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw (Post 13576396)
You have absolutely no Idea How dumb the Insurrection actually was.

Yes. AS I said, no one has ever accused those people of being smart.

Ziggurat 20th August 2021 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13576398)
I wasn't discussing Parsman's statement about assassinating gov't officials.

I was. That was the whole point of my post.

Stacyhs 20th August 2021 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13576401)
I was. That was the whole point of my post.

You were responding to what he said in his second post, not his first, which did not include the bit about assassinating gov't officials. That's why you quoted his second post in your reply to him. That is what I was responding to. This really isn't that difficult.

kevbo 20th August 2021 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 13576383)
Yeah, it's really weird that a coup planned by Rudy Giuliani, Mo Brooks, Ali Alexander and the lady from Publix would be so poorly coordinated.

In my opinion, Trump and his followers would have trouble planning how to pack a school lunchbox. (Hey, anybody, does the sandwich go on the top or the bottom?) :rolleyes: The operative word being plan, which implies some level of competence. Although, sometimes by chance alone they might get it right. Hence the scary nature of January 6.

acbytesla 20th August 2021 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw (Post 13576396)
You have absolutely no Idea How dumb the Insurrection actually was.

And yet it almost worked.

There are a lot of individual pieces to this puzzle that show the plan was much more then many people realize.

Crazy Chainsaw 21st August 2021 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbytesla (Post 13576415)
And yet it almost worked.

There are a lot of individual pieces to this puzzle that show the plan was much more then many people realize.

Actually it was doomed to failure by the very people who tried to pull it off.

smartcooky 21st August 2021 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 13576383)
Yeah, it's really weird that a coup planned by Rudy Giuliani, Mo Brooks, Ali Alexander and the lady from Publix would be so poorly coordinated.

Yeah... the Brains Trust :rolleyes:

smartcooky 21st August 2021 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13576359)
In principle, it's logically possible for such an attempt to be purely spur of the moment. But that wasn't what was under discussion. Going back one more post in the exchange, this is what theprestige asked about, which Parsman's post was in response to:



A plot does need to be organized, even if not well organized. But even the conspiracies which were organized (though not well) were apparently not conspiracies to commit a coup or assassinate government officials. Quoting from my link:
"FBI investigators did find that cells of protesters, including followers of the far-right Oath Keepers and Proud Boys groups, had aimed to break into the Capitol. But they found no evidence that the groups had serious plans about what to do if they made it inside, the sources said."

If that is the case, then it makes Brooks, Giuliani and Trump even more culpable for what happened. They can no longer hide behind a claim that the insurrectionists had already plotted ahead of time and they that had nothing to do with those plans.

The lack of a defined goal that the insurrectionists wanted to achieve means it can be argued even more strongly that Giuliani's "trial by combat" comment, Brooks' act of imploring people to "Kick some ass and take some names" and Trump's direction to the crowd to march on the capitol, "fight like hell" and "take back our country" shows it was they who incited the insurrection.

The Great Zaganza 21st August 2021 04:14 AM

most activist conspiracists, but especially the TrumpRightFOP, are Underpant Gomes at heart: they assume that their profit/prophet will come if they just do x,y and z.
In that sense, the Jan 6th insurrection was planned as well as was possible.

quadraginta 21st August 2021 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13576359)
<snip>
"FBI investigators did find that cells of protesters, including followers of the far-right Oath Keepers and Proud Boys groups, had aimed to break into the Capitol. But they found no evidence that the groups had serious plans about what to do if they made it inside, the sources said."


Not unlike a dog chasing a passing car.

Crazy Chainsaw 21st August 2021 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza (Post 13576714)
most activist conspiracists, but especially the TrumpRightFOP, are Underpant Gomes at heart: they assume that their profit/prophet will come if they just do x,y and z.
In that sense, the Jan 6th insurrection was planned as well as was possible.

For Years Jerome Corsi, has been saying Trump had a Secret deal with the Military, before Jan 6th he stated Trump wanted to trigger the Insurrection act, The Oath Keepers, Leader voted for Corsi when he was the Candidate for the Constitution party for president.
I wonder where the message came from that Trump wanted an Insurrection, and they would have Military backing?

Crazy Chainsaw 21st August 2021 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 13576729)
Not unlike a dog chasing a passing car.

This dog actually caught the car and that's not a good thing for the dog.

jimbob 21st August 2021 05:09 AM

https://twitter.com/ZTPetrizzo/statu...078968834?s=20

Quote:

Zachary Petrizzo
@ZTPetrizzo
This morning, GOP operative Roger Stone announced that he will be filing a $25 million defamation suit against ABC News over their reporting about his role in January 6th riot.
8:57 PM · Aug 20, 2021·Twitter Web App
This could be fun.

As an aside did Trump's pardon mean that he's not considered a felon?

Ziggurat 21st August 2021 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13576704)
If that is the case, then it makes Brooks, Giuliani and Trump even more culpable for what happened. They can no longer hide behind a claim that the insurrectionists had already plotted ahead of time and they that had nothing to do with those plans.

Yes, they can, because as that quote stated, some of them did have plans to break in. They just didn't have any plans for step 2. It was basically an underpants gnome plan.

Quote:

The lack of a defined goal that the insurrectionists wanted to achieve means it can be argued even more strongly that Giuliani's "trial by combat" comment, Brooks' act of imploring people to "Kick some ass and take some names" and Trump's direction to the crowd to march on the capitol, "fight like hell" and "take back our country" shows it was they who incited the insurrection.
Incitement has a narrow legal definition, for a very good reason. You won't clear that bar.

Crazy Chainsaw 21st August 2021 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13576763)
Yes, they can, because as that quote stated, some of them did have plans to break in. They just didn't have any plans for step 2. It was basically an underpants gnome plan.



Incitement has a narrow legal definition, for a very good reason. You won't clear that bar.

How about Jerome Corsi literally saying that Trump,wanted a Riot confrontation so he could declare the Insurrection act?
On his now pulled YouTube video?
BASICLY HE CLAIMED,

1 GOP IN CONGRESS WOULD REJECT THE ELECTORS FROM DISPUTED STATES.

2. Pence would Send the VOTES BACK TO THE STATES,

3 BLM and Antifa Would Fight with Trump supporters.

4 Trump declairs Insurrection act,

5 Military Puts Trump back in white house per Secret deal from 2008.

6 Trump then President for life.

Ziggurat 21st August 2021 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw (Post 13576767)
How about Jerome Corsi literally saying that Trump,wanted a Riot confrontation so he could declare the Insurrection act?

Is it your position that Jerome Corsi is a credible witness whose testimony in court will lead to Trump's conviction?

I'm not seeing it.

Stacyhs 21st August 2021 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13577017)
Is it your position that Jerome Corsi is a credible witness whose testimony in court will lead to Trump's conviction?

I'm not seeing it.

Corsi doesn't have to appear in court as a witness if there is documented proof as in videos, tweets, emails, etc. And he would be declared a hostile witness anyway.

mgidm86 21st August 2021 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13576359)
"FBI investigators did find that cells of protesters, including followers of the far-right Oath Keepers and Proud Boys groups, had aimed to break into the Capitol. But they found no evidence that the groups had serious plans about what to do if they made it inside, the sources said."


"Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!"

Stacyhs 21st August 2021 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 13577040)
"Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!"

In addition to Mike Pence:

Quote:

House impeachment manager Stacey Plaskett says Pelosi was rushed to a secure offsite location because some of the rioters publicly declared their intent to harm or kill Pelosi.
https://www.firstpost.com/world/us-c...i-9292031.html
Quote:

"The first of us who got upstairs kicked in Nancy Pelosi's office door and pushed down the halls toward her inner sanctum, the mob howling with rage. 'Crazy Nancy' probably would have been torn into little pieces, but she was nowhere to be seen," said Plaskett, reading from William Calhoun's Facebook account.

Calhoun, a lawyer from Georgia, has since been charged for his role in the Jan. 6th insurrection.

As Plaskett continued her presentation, she offered new video of the mob and its violent attempts to locate Speaker Pelosi.

"Where are you, Nancy? We're looking for you!" bellowed rioters seen in the video. "She's in here," shouted one man, followed by another:

"Nancy? Oh, Nancy? Nancy, where are you, Nancy?"
But I'm sure they were just joking....

Crazy Chainsaw 21st August 2021 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13577017)
Is it your position that Jerome Corsi is a credible witness whose testimony in court will lead to Trump's conviction?

I'm not seeing it.

No Corsi would definitely lie to Congress, but that Lie could easily be turned into a plea deaĺ,
Corsi also knows the Truth about Russian Collusion and might come clean on that to protect himself.

Ziggurat 21st August 2021 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13577027)
Corsi doesn't have to appear in court as a witness if there is documented proof as in videos, tweets, emails, etc. And he would be declared a hostile witness anyway.

Proof of what? His claims?

Why would what he said on a YouTube video be any more credible than what he might have to say under oath? That seems even less credible.

And if you're referring to Corsi claiming there's documented proof that can be relied upn... well, why on earth would you believe him about that?

Ziggurat 21st August 2021 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw (Post 13577066)
No Corsi would definitely lie to Congress, but that Lie could easily be turned into a plea deaĺ,
Corsi also knows the Truth about Russian Collusion and might come clean on that to protect himself.

Why would you believe Corsi actually knows anything?

Crazy Chainsaw 22nd August 2021 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13577099)
Why would you believe Corsi actually knows anything?

Read the Mueller Report Corsi's defense was he had a personal meeting with God.

Funny It was RTV Moscow that asked me to debunk Corsi's 9/11NO Planer theories in February 2008. I suspect Corsi of being a Russian useful idiot for decades with Friends at RTV, Just Like Alex Jones.

Craig4 22nd August 2021 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 13577040)
"Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!" "Kill Mike Pence!"

It seems like they were trying to tell us something but I can't put my finger on it.

Crazy Chainsaw 22nd August 2021 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig4 (Post 13577388)
It seems like they were trying to tell us something but I can't put my finger on it.

Trump had a Wonderful Healthcare plan for the Vice President!

Ziggurat 22nd August 2021 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13577048)
But I'm sure they were just joking....

That wasn't the question. The question was what was planned. Violent intent in the moment does not demonstrate a plan. That, in fact, is one of the reasons mobs are so dangerous. They can turn violent even when nobody wanted them to at the start.

Ziggurat 22nd August 2021 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw (Post 13577363)
Read the Mueller Report Corsi's defense was he had a personal meeting with God.

Funny It was RTV Moscow that asked me to debunk Corsi's 9/11NO Planer theories in February 2008. I suspect Corsi of being a Russian useful idiot for decades with Friends at RTV, Just Like Alex Jones.

Sounds like you agree with me, then, that he's not a credible witness or source.

catsmate 22nd August 2021 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13576314)

Sigh, you're not the first Trumpist to present that as some sort of 'gotcha'.
:rolleyes:

Stacyhs 22nd August 2021 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 13577407)
That wasn't the question. The question was what was planned. Violent intent in the moment does not demonstrate a plan. That, in fact, is one of the reasons mobs are so dangerous. They can turn violent even when nobody wanted them to at the start.

Oh, just stop it. Your insistence that Jan. 6 wasn't an attempted coup because it wasn't 'planned' is just a transparent attempt to downplay what happened. What happened on Jan 6 was an attempt to stop the process of a legitimate election and prevent Biden's inauguration.

Coup: "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."

Did the mob attempt to suddenly and illegally seize the power of the Congress by stopping the verification? YES.
Was the intent to put Trump back in office by declaring he really won the election: YES.

What do you think "Stop the Steal" means?

Stacyhs 22nd August 2021 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsmate (Post 13577411)
Sigh, you're not the first Trumpist to present that as some sort of 'gotcha'.
:rolleyes:

Yes...and it doesn't work any better now!

Skeptic Ginger 23rd August 2021 03:36 PM

From MSNBC on Friday discussing the planning in plain sight that wasn't found by the FBI (7 minutes 26 seconds):

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Stacyhs 23rd August 2021 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 13578526)
From MSNBC on Friday discussing the planning in plain sight that wasn't found by the FBI (7 minutes 26 seconds):

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

:thumbsup:

The Jan. 6 Commission is seeking the phone records of "several hundred people", including members of Congress. Anyone want to make a bet that's going to include McCarthy?

Crazy Chainsaw 24th August 2021 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13578533)
:thumbsup:

The Jan. 6 Commission is seeking the phone records of "several hundred people", including members of Congress. Anyone want to make a bet that's going to include McCarthy?

Want to bet it will Inclde Donald John Trump?

Stacyhs 24th August 2021 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw (Post 13578878)
Want to bet it will Inclde Donald John Trump?

I do hope so. Oh, I do hope so.

smartcooky 24th August 2021 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13578533)
:thumbsup:

The Jan. 6 Commission is seeking the phone records of "several hundred people", including members of Congress. Anyone want to make a bet that's going to include McCarthy?


The following GQP Congress Critters will now be coughing in their rompers.


Boebert
Hawley
Taylor-Greene
Jordan
Gosar
Gaetz
Brooks
Johnson
Cruz (maybe?)


Any others?

slyjoe 25th August 2021 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartcooky (Post 13579622)
The following GQP Congress Critters will now be coughing in their rompers.


Boebert
Hawley
Taylor-Greene
Jordan
Gosar
Gaetz
Brooks
Johnson
Cruz (maybe?)


Any others?

Biggs

shemp 26th August 2021 07:07 AM

Once again, Trump does not seem to understand that he is no longer President:

Trump Flips Out at House Committee After It Requests Secret Capitol Riot Documents

Quote:

Former president Donald Trump has threatened to use presidential powers, despite no longer being president. On Wednesday, he said he would invoke executive privilege to block the House Select Committee from investigating documents containing communications tied to the Capitol riots. “Executive privilege will be defended, not just on behalf of my Administration and the Patriots who worked beside me, but on behalf of the Office of the President of the United States and the future of our Nation,” the ex-president said in a statement. Trump’s successor Joe Biden will have the final say over whether the information can be shared, and the Biden administration has said it won’t stand in the way of the committee’s investigation. CNN reports that the documents Trump is trying to block include records from the Departments of Justice, Interior and Defense as well as the National Archives, which host Trump’s records while in office. In his angry statement, Trump also called the committee “a partisan sham and a waste of taxpayer dollars.”

Crazy Chainsaw 26th August 2021 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shemp (Post 13581137)
Once again, Trump does not seem to understand that he is no longer President:

Trump Flips Out at House Committee After It Requests Secret Capitol Riot Documents

Trump still thinks he is King!


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:22 AM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-22, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.