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-   -   The behaviour of US police officers (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323251)

Dave Rogers 11th December 2017 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 12109907)
The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if this wasn't some sort of elaborate set up to conduct a clean hit.

I'm not entirely kidding!

I was wondering something similar. It seems that, from the moment the police think someone is in possession of a firearm and constitutes a threat, there is very little that person can do to avoid being shot dead; in this instance, Shaver seems to have been shot for exhibiting an involuntary muscular response while doing his utmost both to comply with police instructions and to demonstrate that he offered no threat, in the case of Philando Castile he was shot dead because a police officer misinterpreted his attempt to comply with that officer's instructions as threatening, and there will no doubt be other instances before long. Since suicide by cop is so well understood a concept, what about murder by cop? Tell the police that someone is behaving dangerously with a firearm, and you've got a good chance he'll come out of the encounter horizontally.

Dave

Ranb 11th December 2017 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12109689)
Which has what to do with the killing under discussion at the moment?

I was responding to this claim;
Quote:

If this incident had happened in the UK, the reaction would have been universal horror and no one would try and justify it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12109689)
Was that USA police officer acting as a member of a UK police force? Should he be liable to prosecution under UK law?

No. Where are you going with this?

ponderingturtle 11th December 2017 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 12109947)
I was wondering something similar. It seems that, from the moment the police think someone is in possession of a firearm and constitutes a threat, there is very little that person can do to avoid being shot dead; in this instance, Shaver seems to have been shot for exhibiting an involuntary muscular response while doing his utmost both to comply with police instructions and to demonstrate that he offered no threat, in the case of Philando Castile he was shot dead because a police officer misinterpreted his attempt to comply with that officer's instructions as threatening, and there will no doubt be other instances before long. Since suicide by cop is so well understood a concept, what about murder by cop? Tell the police that someone is behaving dangerously with a firearm, and you've got a good chance he'll come out of the encounter horizontally.

Dave

How about Dillon Taylor who was rightly shot for following police instructions to remove hands from his pockets. Keep them in there they shoot you for not obeying them, take them out they shoot you for suspicion of drawing a weapon. Basically the police can do what ever they want and you hope what they want isn't to shoot you.

ponderingturtle 11th December 2017 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranb (Post 12109966)
I was responding to this claim;




No. Where are you going with this?

Can we move this off topic whataboutism discussion UK police to a different thread? It seems to be entirely about one or two shootings, instead of in the US when we have trouble finding every shooting where someone was shot while obey police instructions. To say nothing of all the shootings where the police don't even give them time to react.

lobosrul5 11th December 2017 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 12109947)
I was wondering something similar. It seems that, from the moment the police think someone is in possession of a firearm and constitutes a threat, there is very little that person can do to avoid being shot dead; in this instance, Shaver seems to have been shot for exhibiting an involuntary muscular response while doing his utmost both to comply with police instructions and to demonstrate that he offered no threat, in the case of Philando Castile he was shot dead because a police officer misinterpreted his attempt to comply with that officer's instructions as threatening, and there will no doubt be other instances before long. Since suicide by cop is so well understood a concept, what about murder by cop? Tell the police that someone is behaving dangerously with a firearm, and you've got a good chance he'll come out of the encounter horizontally.

Dave

Thats called "swatting". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting

Commonly done when someone "pwns" you at an online game.

Rolfe 11th December 2017 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 12109947)
I was wondering something similar. It seems that, from the moment the police think someone is in possession of a firearm and constitutes a threat, there is very little that person can do to avoid being shot dead; in this instance, Shaver seems to have been shot for exhibiting an involuntary muscular response while doing his utmost both to comply with police instructions and to demonstrate that he offered no threat, in the case of Philando Castile he was shot dead because a police officer misinterpreted his attempt to comply with that officer's instructions as threatening, and there will no doubt be other instances before long. Since suicide by cop is so well understood a concept, what about murder by cop? Tell the police that someone is behaving dangerously with a firearm, and you've got a good chance he'll come out of the encounter horizontally.


Surely to goodness the incidents we've been discussing, while agreed to be far too frequent, are still only a small percentage of the times cops are called out to an incident of that general description? I'm kind of hoping that ending up dead because someone called the cops and said they saw you handling a gun is not a common outcome of that scenario overall.

quadraginta 11th December 2017 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 12109969)
How about Dillon Taylor who was rightly shot for following police instructions to remove hands from his pockets. Keep them in there they shoot you for not obeying them, take them out they shoot you for suspicion of drawing a weapon. Basically the police can do what ever they want and you hope what they want isn't to shoot you.


Follow a guy in a van into a quickie-mart parking lot and bust him because he starts to take off his seat belt before he's all the way off of the public road.

Man gets out of of his van.

Tell him to show his license and registration.

When he reaches toward his van for his license and registration ... shoot him because he might be 'going for a weapon'.

Noztradamus 22nd December 2017 06:37 PM

OK what Nimrod thought this was a plan?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...istmas-n832166

Quote:

News Dec 22 2017, 7:37 pm ET
Texas boy, 6, killed in deputy-involved shooting days before Christmas
by Corky Siemaszko and Phil McCausland

6-year-old Texas boy was killed just days before Christmas when sheriff’s deputies opened fire on a woman they had been chasing — and one of the bullets pierced the wall of a mobile home and struck the child in the abdomen.
....
The boy, Kameron Prescott, was fatally shot as deputies chased the approximately 30-year-old suspect in a "prolonged pursuit" that was reported as a call of a stolen vehicle which involved a known suspect who had outstanding felony warrants, Salazar said.
During the first encounter a deputy “identified what he believed was a weapon in the hands of that suspect” and the woman at that time and later threatened deputies with a weapon “and verbalized to him that she intended to shoot him with that weapon” — although no gun has yet been found, Salazar said.

Degeneve 23rd December 2017 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noztradamus (Post 12123200)
OK what Nimrod thought this was a plan?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...istmas-n832166

Is this really how they understand the words "to protect and to serve"?

Degeneve 29th December 2017 03:35 PM

As the same unjustified murders of US citizens by police are still going on without punishments one can expect nothing will change next year: https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/29/...olice-shooting

Babbylonian 29th December 2017 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Degeneve (Post 12128717)
As the same unjustified murders of US citizens by police are still going on without punishments one can expect nothing will change next year: https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/29/...olice-shooting

It's claimed that the poor guy (who was completely innocent of even involvement in the online game resulting in the call) reached for his waistband...which of course is exactly the same excuse that stupid scaredy-cops always use after they've shot an unarmed citizen who is complying with directions. "This is too easy, it must be a trick!" <BANG>

I'm sure they'll track down and punish those responsible for the fake call while simultaneously officially absolving the cop of any wrongdoing.

ETA: Source for waistband excuse.

Nessie 31st December 2017 03:01 AM

"Swatting" is not even being reported as a problem, it is being reported as something that just happens.

It does give heavily armed swat police something to do and the old waist band excuse is a guarantee of being able to kill with impunity.

It takes about 1 to 2 seconds to pull a gun from a waist band behind the back, lift and shoot and that is without doing any aiming. A cop who has already drawn a gun which is aimed at the person is already at a massive advantage.

But I do understand that the general American attitude is of zero risk for cops and 100% of the risk on the public.

deadrose 3rd January 2018 02:31 PM

Here's an example of the sort of thing that happens daily. Luckily, we're not reading this in the obituary column. https://twitter.com/TheHipsterRebbe/...29792290729985

bluesjnr 4th January 2018 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadrose (Post 12133503)
Here's an example of the sort of thing that happens daily. Luckily, we're not reading this in the obituary column. https://twitter.com/TheHipsterRebbe/...29792290729985

I'm not buying that particular story.

William Parcher 5th January 2018 09:24 AM

Nationwide, police shot and killed nearly 1,000 people in 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washington Post
For the third year in a row, police nationwide shot and killed nearly 1,000 people, a grim annual tally that has persisted despite widespread public scrutiny of officers’ use of fatal force.

Police fatally shot 987 people last year, or two dozen more than they killed in 2016, according to an ongoing Washington Post database project that tracks the fatal shootings. Since 2015, The Post has logged the details of 2,945 shooting deaths, culled from local news coverage, public records and social-media reports.

While many of the year-to-year patterns remain consistent, the number of unarmed black males killed in 2017 declined from two years ago. Last year, police killed 19, a figure tracking closely with the 17 killed in 2016. In 2015, police shot and killed 36 unarmed black males.

Experts said they are uncertain why the annual total shows little fluctuation — the number for 2017 is almost identical to the 995 killed by police in 2015.

Some believe the tally may correspond to the number of times police encounter people, an outcome of statistical probability. Other experts are exploring whether the number tracks with overall violence in American society...


https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...340_story.html

3point14 5th January 2018 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12135700)
Nationwide, police shot and killed nearly 1,000 people in 2017




https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...340_story.html



Given advances in medical technology, if the number of fatal shootings is the same, does that suggest that the actual number of shootings is going up?

Beerina 5th January 2018 09:43 AM

Yesterday there were 100,000 encounters with police where nothing bad happened.

The Don 5th January 2018 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beerina (Post 12135735)
Yesterday there were 100,000 encounters with police where nothing bad happened.

Evidence ?

I mean sure no-one was fatally shot but there's a huge excluded middle between "nothing bad" and "fatally shot".

jimbob 5th January 2018 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beerina (Post 12135735)
Yesterday there were 100,000 encounters with police where nothing bad happened.

Yes, and the Germans fired millions of rounds in the first day of the battle of the Somme, whilst the British only suffered 20,000 casualties.

3point14 5th January 2018 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 12135755)
Evidence ?

I mean sure no-one was fatally shot but there's a huge excluded middle between "nothing bad" and "fatally shot".

I think, in this instance "nothing bad happened" means no-one was shot and killed. I don't think that's an appropriate minimum standard to aim for.

332nd 5th January 2018 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beerina (Post 12135735)
Yesterday there were 100,000 encounters with police where nothing bad happened.

Yesterday there were 10s of millions of interactions with black people where nothing bad happened, but if my son had been shot by a cop, a major point of the discussion would be why didn't my wife & I train said 5yo to interact with the police in a way that didn't spook them.

quadraginta 5th January 2018 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 332nd (Post 12135770)
Yesterday there were 10s of millions of interactions with black people where nothing bad happened, but if my son had been shot by a cop, a major point of the discussion would be why didn't my wife & I train said 5yo to interact with the police in a way that didn't spook them.


You would be able to answer those questioners with total accuracy that such training would be impossible, since the evidence is clear that anything or even nothing at all is sufficient to spook the cops.

The standard the cops are allowed to apply is how they feel about an encounter, not what anyone else actually does or doesn't do.

332nd 5th January 2018 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12135897)
You would be able to answer those questioners with total accuracy that such training would be impossible, since the evidence is clear that anything or even nothing at all is sufficient to spook the cops.

The standard the cops are allowed to apply is how they feel about an encounter, not what anyone else actually does or doesn't do.

Exactly! I'm an adult with a Master's Degree & military training including Ranger School, & I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. I don't see how I can train the boy for it when he gets confused by red or yellow bell peppers.

It snowed here last night. If the cops were shining a light in my face, told me to show my hands, then ordered me to come to them, I know I can't reach for the rail beside the steps due to it being roughly the height of my waist, but if I slipped & fell down the 5 steps there's a good chance they would see my sudden acceleration as "charging them".

quadraginta 5th January 2018 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 332nd (Post 12135964)
Exactly! I'm an adult with a Master's Degree & military training including Ranger School, & I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.

<snip>


That's because there is no such thing.

The cop groupies like to pretend there is in their pitiful attempts at apologia, painstakingly dissecting each separate motion the victim makes, searching for some tiny flinch or stumble that they can point to and then crow, "Well, any fool should know not to do that!".

But the facts are the facts. that's what these encounters have demonstrated. It doesn't matter what the victim does. Real or imagined, what counts is what the cop thinks they have perceived.

And that is all the justification they need to start blasting away. There is no requirement for assessing or verifying anything. Just bull your way in and if something spooks you then shoot it.

And as long as their fellow cops stand around and watch it happen and then cover for the uniformed perp they are, in my mind at least, equally guilty. As long as juries let these threats to society walk away scot-free, it is going to continue.

It is going to get worse. Cops kill with impunity. Why should they stop? What have they got to lose?

bluesjnr 5th January 2018 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 332nd (Post 12135964)
...snip... if I slipped & fell down the 5 steps there's a good chance they would see my sudden acceleration as "charging them".

Actual sight is not required, they need only rely on feelings. Foresight is abused to meet their ends and hindsight is ignored, lest they learn anything from it.

The Norseman 5th January 2018 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesjnr (Post 12136018)
Actual sight is not required, they need only rely on feelings. Foresight is abused to meet their ends and hindsight is ignored, lest they learn anything from it.

Very well said.

Rolfe 25th April 2018 12:06 PM

Bumping this thread to see if anyone has any comment on this twitter thread.

https://twitter.com/kelseybew_/statu...32611854524417

It's an account by a black woman of what happened when her boyfriend was pulled over by the cops.

jimbob 25th April 2018 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12270930)
Bumping this thread to see if anyone has any comment on this twitter thread.

https://twitter.com/kelseybew_/statu...32611854524417

It's an account by a black woman of what happened when her boyfriend was pulled over by the cops.

All too easy to believe.

LTC8K6 25th April 2018 12:56 PM

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/home-de...-live-updates/

Killed removing a shoplifter from Home Depot.

Dr. Keith 25th April 2018 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12271056)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/home-de...-live-updates/

Killed removing a shoplifter from Home Depot.

That sucks. DPD has had a tough time lately.

jimbob 25th April 2018 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbob (Post 12270946)
All too easy to believe.

I can also believe that many police officers are suffering from PTSD and shouldn't be on the beat any more.

It's the system that is the problem - providing insufficient oversight and training or support.

Rolfe 25th April 2018 02:10 PM

The really crazy thing about this one is that the cops who were threatening the man they pulled over knew they'd pulled him over because he'd been seen to give some money to a beggar who was said to have been causing a nuisance. In what possible universe is that cause to pull a gun on him and pull his car apart?

Stacko 25th April 2018 02:33 PM

Good gravy!
BREAKING: After #StephonClark was murdered by Sacramento Police, it was discovered that DA Anne Marie Schubert took $13,000 from police.

After our investigation, we found that she has actually taken an astounding $420,000 from law enforcement.

quadraginta 25th April 2018 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 (Post 12271056)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/home-de...-live-updates/

Killed removing a shoplifter from Home Depot.


Maybe the shoplifter was in fear for his safety

Stacko 3rd May 2018 01:47 PM

VIDEO: @MiamiPD cop takes running start, kicks defenseless, handcuffed man directly in the head

autumn1971 3rd May 2018 02:03 PM

Handcuffs are made of sturdy steel that can be used to really hurt someone; a handcuffed person is more dangerous than ever.

Those hearty souls who dog-piled the man in the deadly "prone and immobilized" attack stance were truly risking their lives.

mgidm86 3rd May 2018 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolfe (Post 12270930)
Bumping this thread to see if anyone has any comment on this twitter thread.

https://twitter.com/kelseybew_/statu...32611854524417

It's an account by a black woman of what happened when her boyfriend was pulled over by the cops.

Link seems to be dead.

I'm not seeing any video on the Twitter page or the linked story. Maybe it's my browser. How about we not link to Twitter and just go to the main story anyways from now on? Just a request - there is no reason for anyone to go to Twitter to look at evidence for anything.

Police behavior:
About a month ago I was driving through my small town. I was the only vehicle at a red light. I saw a motorcycle cop with someone pulled over and noticed his bike was an old classic of some kind - it was too dark too see what it was exactly.

The cop was getting something from the bike and saw me looking and said, "How are you doing tonight?"

I said, "Just checking out your bike, looks cool!" My light turned green.

He said, "Have a great evening" waved and gave a big smile as I drove away.

William Parcher 3rd May 2018 03:44 PM

Fatal police shootings of unarmed people have significantly declined, experts say

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Washington Post
The number of deadly police shootings of unarmed people has generally declined since 2015 even as the tally of fatal shootings by law enforcement is on pace to hit nearly 1,000 for the fourth year in a row, according to data gathered by The Washington Post.

Fatal shootings of unarmed black men — such as the high-profile case in March of Stephon Clark in Sacramento — are among the kinds of killings that have fallen. Criminologists said the downturn in the number of cases and their own analysis of the data indicate that evidence of racial bias by police who shoot and kill unarmed blacks has also declined but not disappeared.

“These trends mark significant changes,” said Geoff Alpert, a professor in the Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice at the University of South Carolina who has been reviewing and studying the data at The Post’s request. “What we don’t understand yet is what’s causing these numbers to move downward.”...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...4c7_story.html

jimbob 3rd May 2018 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 12280876)
Link seems to be dead.

I'm not seeing any video on the Twitter page or the linked story. Maybe it's my browser. How about we not link to Twitter and just go to the main story anyways from now on? Just a request - there is no reason for anyone to go to Twitter to look at evidence for anything.

Police behavior:
About a month ago I was driving through my small town. I was the only vehicle at a red light. I saw a motorcycle cop with someone pulled over and noticed his bike was an old classic of some kind - it was too dark too see what it was exactly.

The cop was getting something from the bike and saw me looking and said, "How are you doing tonight?"

I said, "Just checking out your bike, looks cool!" My light turned green.

He said, "Have a great evening" waved and gave a big smile as I drove away.

Edit, I was referring to Stacko's link

quadraginta 4th May 2018 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 (Post 12280876)
Link seems to be dead.

I'm not seeing any video on the Twitter page or the linked story. Maybe it's my browser.


Interesting. Just out of curiosity, what browser are you using.

I tried that link to Twitter with both Google Chrome and Firefox, and it worked fine in both.

Browser settings could be a problem as well, instead of the browser itself.

I suspect that it has little to do with something intrinsic toTwitter

Quote:

How about we not link to Twitter and just go to the main story anyways from now on? Just a request - there is no reason for anyone to go to Twitter to look at evidence for anything.

There's no reason for them not to. It's as good a place to start as any.

Sometimes the comments are of interest. That's basically what we are doing here, looking at people's comments.

Quote:


Police behavior:
About a month ago I was driving through my small town. I was the only vehicle at a red light. I saw a motorcycle cop with someone pulled over and noticed his bike was an old classic of some kind - it was too dark too see what it was exactly.

The cop was getting something from the bike and saw me looking and said, "How are you doing tonight?"

I said, "Just checking out your bike, looks cool!" My light turned green.

He said, "Have a great evening" waved and gave a big smile as I drove away.

Touching story.

Not all unleashed dogs will attack without provocation, either. We restrict the freedoms of the ones which do.

Unlike the way cops generally get treated for equally vicious behavior. The one in the incident above is suspended, sure ... with pay. So they gave him a vacation.

Apparently the police report by all the officers involved neglected to mention his little place kick exercise. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Quote:

MPD released a police report to the media late Thursday afternoon — police say they tried to apprehend Suazo after he was allegedly caught driving a blue Jeep Cherokee that had been stolen in Broward County. The cops say Suazo fled, crashed into a wall, and then fled on foot and tried to resist arrest before being tased,
Now we see that the actual facts were that the man was lying face down, docile and compliant, while an officer leisurely took out his handcuffs from a dozen feet away and calmly walked over and cuffed the man.

At which point another officer appears from off-screen moving at a dead run and kicks the handcuffed guy in the head, who is not moving at all (much less offering resistance).

None of the officers involved who filed false reports are being disciplined in any fashion. Apparently the general belief among them is that such egregious behavior by another officer isn't worth mentioning. And apparently their supervisors agree.

Want to know why these sorts of incidents continue? There's one reason.

If this video had not surfaced then there would have been no repercussions to the officers involved at all. What little will be done is being done grudgingly.


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