International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   Social Issues & Current Events (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82)
-   -   The behaviour of US police officers (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323251)

Distracted1 20th July 2020 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatius (Post 13162793)
This appears to be the perfect storm of bad American police culture colliding with bad American civilian culture.

Far too many Americans seem to think the immediately confrontational, "Who the **** are YOU?!?" response is the right and proper way to deal with any unexpected interaction with anyone, under any circumstances. And if they've got a gun to wave about while being confrontational, all the better. If this guy hadn't wanted to get a piece of the people knocking on his door in the middle of the night ("trespassing" seems to be considered a capital crime by far too many Americans), he wouldn't have barged out into the middle of a couple of cops and ended up dead.

How many of the recent examples of such confrontations, between police and civilians, or between two civilians, could have be avoided if both sides didn't have that "Who the **** are you?" attitude turned up to 11?

Perhaps in general.
Did you witness anything in the brief video of this interaction that suggested the police were approaching the call with "an attitude"?

erlando 20th July 2020 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reactor drone (Post 13162281)
A police officer "feared for his life" after a noise complaint so he shot a kneeling man in the back, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryozrUEms5c

Presumably he thought he was going to fire bullets through his own body at him.

Damn, the officers don't even complete the sentence "Put the gun down!" before they murder him. He clearly realized his mistake as soon as he opened the door and tried to put the gun down. Sadly the trigger happy cops were faster.

The cop already did his "I feared for my life" routine. Now we're just waiting for the inevitable "But he was a bad guy" / "He had a DUI" / "He was on drugs".

erlando 20th July 2020 09:55 AM

Also I hope that 911 caller realizes that his "I guess I'll say it's physical if that gets anyone here faster *chuckle*" got a man killed. **** that dude.

Horatius 20th July 2020 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13162832)
Perhaps in general.
Did you witness anything in the brief video of this interaction that suggested the police were approaching the call with "an attitude"?



Immediately pointing a stupidly bright flashlight right at his face as soon as the door opens certainly doesn't fall under the "Hi-didily-ho, Neighborino!" class of greetings.

pgwenthold 20th July 2020 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlando (Post 13162896)
Damn, the officers don't even complete the sentence "Put the gun down!" before they murder him. He clearly realized his mistake as soon as he opened the door and tried to put the gun down. Sadly the trigger happy cops were faster.

I don't agree with you in one way: in what respect was it a "mistake"?

Yes, he opened the door with a gun in his hand. What about that is a mistake? Just because they cops did not make it a mistake.

1) Could he see they were cops? Above it says no, he couldn't see them through the peephole.
2) They announced they were cops. But that means nothing, because anyone can just "Open up, it's the police" (Cheech and Chong did a whole skit on that).

So, given the culture where it is acceptable to have a gun in hand when opening the door for strangers in the middle of the night, what did he do wrong?

erlando 21st July 2020 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13162954)
I don't agree with you in one way: in what respect was it a "mistake"?

Yes, he opened the door with a gun in his hand. What about that is a mistake? Just because they cops did not make it a mistake.

It's more of a figure of speech. Let's call it an "oh ****" moment instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13162954)
1) Could he see they were cops? Above it says no, he couldn't see them through the peephole.
2) They announced they were cops. But that means nothing, because anyone can just "Open up, it's the police" (Cheech and Chong did a whole skit on that).

So, given the culture where it is acceptable to have a gun in hand when opening the door for strangers in the middle of the night, what did he do wrong?

In my eyes? Nothing, given the laws and culture in the United States of holy-****-everyone's-armed..

The way the door was yanked opened and him yelling "WHAT?!" may have contributed to the scaredy-cat cops being even more scared. But one should think that cops were trained to handle that kind of thing.

bluesjnr 21st July 2020 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlando (Post 13163604)
It's more of a figure of speech. Let's call it an "oh ****" moment instead.



In my eyes? Nothing, given the laws and culture in the United States of holy-****-everyone's-armed..

The way the door was yanked opened and him yelling "WHAT?!" may have contributed to the scaredy-cat cops being even more scared. But one should think that cops were trained to handle that kind of thing.

They are... and you just seen how.

ponderingturtle 21st July 2020 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlando (Post 13163604)
The way the door was yanked opened and him yelling "WHAT?!" may have contributed to the scaredy-cat cops being even more scared. But one should think that cops were trained to handle that kind of thing.

As the cops say "better judged by 12 than carried by 6".

ponderingturtle 30th July 2020 06:56 AM

Cops celebrating killing people.

https://openvallejo.org/2020/07/28/v...tal-shootings/

"They call it, “The Badge of Honor.” For a generation, a secretive clique within the Vallejo Police Department has commemorated fatal shootings with beers, backyard barbecues, and by bending the points of their badges each time they kill in the line of duty, an investigation by Open Vallejo has found. The custom was so exclusive, some officers involved in fatal shootings were never told of its existence.

...

They call it, “The Badge of Honor.” For a generation, a secretive clique within the Vallejo Police Department has commemorated fatal shootings with beers, backyard barbecues, and by bending the points of their badges each time they kill in the line of duty, an investigation by Open Vallejo has found. The custom was so exclusive, some officers involved in fatal shootings were never told of its existence.

"

Hevneren 30th July 2020 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 13173746)
Cops celebrating killing people.

https://openvallejo.org/2020/07/28/v...tal-shootings/

"They call it, “The Badge of Honor.” For a generation, a secretive clique within the Vallejo Police Department has commemorated fatal shootings with beers, backyard barbecues, and by bending the points of their badges each time they kill in the line of duty, an investigation by Open Vallejo has found. The custom was so exclusive, some officers involved in fatal shootings were never told of its existence.

...

They call it, “The Badge of Honor.” For a generation, a secretive clique within the Vallejo Police Department has commemorated fatal shootings with beers, backyard barbecues, and by bending the points of their badges each time they kill in the line of duty, an investigation by Open Vallejo has found. The custom was so exclusive, some officers involved in fatal shootings were never told of its existence.

"

They call it, “The Badge of Honor.” For a generation, a secretive clique within the Vallejo Police Department has commemorated fatal shootings with beers, backyard barbecues, and by bending the points of their badges each time they kill in the line of duty, an investigation by Open Vallejo has found. The custom was so exclusive, some officers involved in fatal shootings were never told of its existence.

jimbob 30th July 2020 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 13173746)
Cops celebrating killing people.

https://openvallejo.org/2020/07/28/v...tal-shootings/

"They call it, “The Badge of Honor.” For a generation, a secretive clique within the Vallejo Police Department has commemorated fatal shootings with beers, backyard barbecues, and by bending the points of their badges each time they kill in the line of duty, an investigation by Open Vallejo has found. The custom was so exclusive, some officers involved in fatal shootings were never told of its existence.

...

They call it, “The Badge of Honor.” For a generation, a secretive clique within the Vallejo Police Department has commemorated fatal shootings with beers, backyard barbecues, and by bending the points of their badges each time they kill in the line of duty, an investigation by Open Vallejo has found. The custom was so exclusive, some officers involved in fatal shootings were never told of its existence.

"

Nice


Quote:

The captain who pushed for an investigation, John Whitney, would soon be out of a job. A former SWAT team commander with two master’s degrees, Whitney says he was forced out of the department after raising concerns about the badge-bending tradition and other misconduct. He filed a retaliation claim against the city in March.
See, a true "bad apple" to be removed from the barrel

jimbob 30th July 2020 09:20 AM

40 out of 100 officers have been involved in shootings.

Not a good culture

erlando 14th August 2020 04:23 AM

Police in Santa Clarita repond to reports of a homeless man attacking three black teens with a knife by holding the three black teens at gunpoint with assault rifles and arresting them.

The teenagers were unarmed.

https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/s...86275167154181

chrispy 25th August 2020 01:46 PM

Just figured I'd bump this thread in light of the ongoing Jacob Blake case.

so... *bumped*

chrispy 25th August 2020 01:57 PM

Since I bumped the thread, I should probably express some thoughts. I don't care what this young Black man has done in the past, no one deserves to be shot 7 times in the back. I always feel the need to say that as the usual suspects will be out to use whatever exists in his past as reason enough for why "he had it coming". Now, as for the shooting,

1) What were these officers doing? There are multiple officers on the scene and they couldn't control him without resorting to lethal force?

2) I predict they will say that when he started to enter the vehicle that they feared for their safety and thought he was reaching for something. I am darn near certain that is the path the PD will go with this.
3) Barring further details I will wait to issue a full opinion, but my initial reaction is one of utter horror. What is wrong with police in my your country? I give up and think I am never coming back. I feel much safer as a mixed male where I am these days, and I live in one of the so-called most dangerous countries in the world.

Meadmaker 25th August 2020 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispy (Post 13201830)
2) I predict they will say that when he started to enter the vehicle that they feared for their safety and thought he was reaching for something. I am darn near certain that is the path the PD will go with this.

It's a safe bet that's what they will say, because it's a safe bet that's what happened.

He does appear to be reaching for something.

Of course, a cop these days figures that if he's reaching for something, it's probably a gun, or, even if it's not, it's best to shoot just in case.

Will it turn out to be his wallet, where his ID was? That happened in New York some years ago. I don't remember the guy's name, but they told him to stop, or maybe to put his hands up, (It's been a while) He reached for his back pocket to show them his ID, and someone got spooked and started firing. I think they said over 40 shots were fired by lots of cops before the shooting stopped.

There will have to be more to come out to fully explain things, but in most cases I've seen recently, if the additional information would tend to exonerate the cops, that information gets released lickety split. If not, it tends to take a while to be released. They don't seem in any rush on this case.

I do think we should be open minded and hear more evidence, but as a preliminary conclusion, it sure looks like the cop was really mad at the guy for not doing what he was told to do, and decided to shoot him.

chrispy 25th August 2020 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13201857)
It's a safe bet that's what they will say, because it's a safe bet that's what happened.

He does appear to be reaching for something.

Of course, a cop these days figures that if he's reaching for something, it's probably a gun, or, even if it's not, it's best to shoot just in case.

Will it turn out to be his wallet, where his ID was? That happened in New York some years ago. I don't remember the guy's name, but they told him to stop, or maybe to put his hands up, (It's been a while) He reached for his back pocket to show them his ID, and someone got spooked and started firing. I think they said over 40 shots were fired by lots of cops before the shooting stopped.

There will have to be more to come out to fully explain things, but in most cases I've seen recently, if the additional information would tend to exonerate the cops, that information gets released lickety split. If not, it tends to take a while to be released. They don't seem in any rush on this case.

I do think we should be open minded and hear more evidence, but as a preliminary conclusion, it sure looks like the cop was really mad at the guy for not doing what he was told to do, and decided to shoot him.

Amadou Diallo is the gent you are thinking of. I lived in NYC at the time and that was a horrible crime. All officers were aquitted, IIRC.

They were all plain clothes, too. He thought he was being robbed.

Meadmaker 25th August 2020 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispy (Post 13201876)
Amadou Diallo is the gent you are thinking of. I lived in NYC at the time and that was a horrible crime. All officers were aquitted, IIRC.

They were all plain clothes, too. He thought he was being robbed.

Ah, that's the one. Looks like I got some details wrong, but the core of the story is pretty clear. Man does something police don't expect. Police shoot. A lot.

chrispy 25th August 2020 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13201885)
Ah, that's the one. Looks like I got some details wrong, but the core of the story is pretty clear. Man does something police don't expect. Police shoot. A lot.

Or they make you play "Simon Says" at the risk of death.

Or they pile on you and then beat you up because you can't put your hands behind your back.

Or they shoot your attack chihuahua.

Or they,... (Insert whatever here)

quadraginta 25th August 2020 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 13201857)
It's a safe bet that's what they will say, because it's a safe bet that's what happened.

He does appear to be reaching for something.

<snip>


Or ... he appears to be getting into his car. I don't think the video shows enough to be able to tell the difference.

If that was the case then obviously he was 'resisting arrest'. Which means, of course, that the cop was fully justified in shooting him seven times in the back.

bruto 26th August 2020 06:54 AM

I suppose we should be thankful that the cops didn't find it necessary to shoot Blake's children as well. Medals for heroic restraint. :boggled:

bluesjnr 26th August 2020 06:58 AM

The sad fact is that US cops are incredibly trigger happy and in constant fear for their lives. A sadder fact is that this trigger happiness and fear ramps up when they are faced with a person of colour under any circumstances.

I know this a cold fact. Many of you will know this likewise and, that said, I have to question the validity of letting ones ego get in the way of these crazed cops when they have you under the cosh. There is still a good chance that you're gonna get shot but it increases dramatically if you willfully ignore whatever ridiculous demands they may make of you. Why did you walk away Jacob?

They have everything they need to make a case of "he was reaching" and they will.

That gun pointing cop had oodles of opportunity to tackle Jacob from behind and end this without shots being fired. He chose to run Jacob down and looked for the slightest opportunity to do so. Jacob handed him it on a plate.

You find yourself in front of a gun wielding US cop? You better start eating **** and asking for more or you'll get shot.

What a ****** up system y'all have over there.

Captain_Swoop 28th August 2020 09:44 AM

Jacob Blake, the black man shot seven times in the back by police in the US state of Wisconsin, has been handcuffed to his hospital bed, his family says.

Mr Blake was paralysed by the shooting and it is not clear if he will recover.

Police in Kenosha told the BBC that Mr Blake was in custody for previous warrants and the handcuffs were policy.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53950621

erlando 28th August 2020 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13205170)
Jacob Blake, the black man shot seven times in the back by police in the US state of Wisconsin, has been handcuffed to his hospital bed, his family says.

Mr Blake was paralysed by the shooting and it is not clear if he will recover.

Police in Kenosha told the BBC that Mr Blake was in custody for previous warrants and the handcuffs were policy.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53950621

When "policy" trumps common sense and decency.

JoeMorgue 28th August 2020 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlando (Post 13205193)
When "policy" trumps common sense and decency.

"I was only following orders" was taking too long to say.

Captain_Swoop 28th August 2020 10:31 AM

The FBI warned for years that police are cozy with the far right. Is no one listening?

Quote:

Mike German
I was an FBI agent who infiltrated white supremacists. Too many local police don’t take the far right seriously – or actively sympathize
Quote:

For decades, the Federal Bureau of Investigation has routinely warned its agents that the white supremacist and far-right militant groups it investigates often have links to law enforcement.
Yet the justice department has no national strategy designed to protect the communities policed by these dangerously compromised law enforcers.
As our nation grapples with how to reimagine public safety in the wake of the protests following the police killing of George Floyd, it is time to confront and resolve the persistent problem of explicit racism in law enforcement.
Quote:

the FBI’s 2015 counter-terrorism policy indicates not just that members of law enforcement might hold white supremacist views, but that FBI domestic terrorism investigations have often identified “active links” between the subjects of these investigations and law enforcement officials.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...macists-police

pgwenthold 28th August 2020 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13205225)
The FBI warned for years that police are cozy with the far right. Is no one listening?





https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...macists-police

That report came out in 2008

Captain_Swoop 28th August 2020 10:34 AM

edited to add another quote concerning the 2015 policy report

Emily's Cat 28th August 2020 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlando (Post 13205193)
When "policy" trumps common sense and decency.

That happens a lot. :(

bruto 28th August 2020 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13205196)
"I was only following orders" was taking too long to say.

Cops get all upset and clutch their pearls when people compare them to storm troopers, and argue that they need discretion and latitude to do their job properly. It would be amusing if it weren't so awful, that this cannot apply to a preposterous rule of their own.

Since Blake is so dangerous and likely to bolt out of his bed and cause an uncontrollable ruckus, I'm surprised they don't feel it necessary to shackle his legs too just in case he decides to flee.

Mumbles 28th August 2020 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13205225)
The FBI warned for years that police are cozy with the far right. Is no one listening?

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...macists-police

That's basically why Antifa is around. When the DoJ released a report on far-right groups back in 2009, conservatives in general rushed to the defense of white supremacists, so-called sovereign citizens, and other violent nutcases, claiming that it was an Obama hit job on conservatives in general (the report was actually ordered during then Bush admin, and a report on left-wing terrorist groups had been released during that admin - lefties felt no need to go to bat for eco-terrorists and the like). Unfortunately, Obama caved, as he often did during his early years on such matters (see ACORN or Shirley Sherrod as other examples of this), but work against white nationalist groups continued in other parts of the FBI and the DoJ.

(Dolt 45 would later do everything he could to stifle any work against white supremacist and white nationalist groups, preferring them to look into nonviolent civil rights groups and the virtually undefined "Black Identity Extremists" - one of many ways he proved to be the single most racist president since Woodrow Wilson)

Matthew Best 29th August 2020 11:35 PM

Arkansas sheriff resigns after a tape is leaked that records him using racial slurs

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...rding-n1238791

In the recording, Wright is heard yelling at a woman about an employee she had talked to in a Piggly Wiggly grocery store in Dewitt, Arkansas.

Wright tells the woman, “Shut up you ******* ****** lover! … Every ************ in this store and you gotta talk to the ******* (inaudible) ******. Right there in front of me, like y’all ******* best buddies. It is a big ******* deal. People ******* see me and see you talking to ******* *******.”

https://www.towleroad.com/2020/08/arkansas-sheriff/

Quote:

Wright apologized at the court meeting for any offense his recorded remarks may have caused and said that he made those comments in the heat of the moment when he was "upset over certain things."

He also insisted he was not racist.

"That's not me," he said.
He had been with the sheriff’s office for 26 years, the last four as the elected sheriff. But I'm sure he never allowed his racism to affect his work as a sheriff at all, so it's probably only reasonable that he was allowed to resign so they can continue to pay him for another month.

Manger Douse 29th August 2020 11:52 PM

Resignation allows him to be re-hired too no?

quadraginta 30th August 2020 12:47 AM

Definitely not racist.

After all, that's just the way anybody would talk if they happened to get momentarily upset.

:rolleyes:

Meadmaker 30th August 2020 01:39 AM

It's not me. That was my evil twin.

Darat 30th August 2020 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manger Douse (Post 13206568)
Resignation allows him to be re-hired too no?

Probably can stand for re-election.

SuburbanTurkey 1st September 2020 04:48 AM

In any other country, this would be a national scandal, but this is the USA, so it's par for course.

There are tattooed gangs of killer cops in the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. Those that kill members of the public are invited to get matching tattoos and join the clique.

A cop that informed on his peers stated that these cops will routinely fabricate testimony about fictitious guns on dead suspects in order to justify the killing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA Times
Gonzalez says the scheme is employed in Compton by tattooed deputies who call themselves the Executioners, the clandestine gang many say runs the station.

His allegations add to a growing body of information about the Compton clique, one of several tattooed deputy groups within the Sheriff’s Department with names such as the Grim Reapers, Banditos and Jump Out Boys.

The Sheriff’s Department has been aware of the groups for decades but has struggled to crack down, despite repeated internal and independent investigations and instances in which members are accused of misconduct.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...n-executioners

Deputies who want to join the powerful clique within the department are known as "chasing ink", which can only be achieved by killing members of the public while on the job.

One of the prospects that the whistleblower named shot and killed 18-year-old Andres Guardado in June. The LASD has been aware of this problem since at least 2018, if not earlier, when they were sued for excessive force by a gang-tattooed cop that brutalized someone.

ponderingturtle 1st September 2020 12:21 PM

Dropping a gun is now all reason the police need to kill someone.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...eputy-72741854

pgwenthold 1st September 2020 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 13208500)
Dropping a gun is now all reason the police need to kill someone.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...eputy-72741854

I know this is going back off this topic a little, but it reminds me of the Blake case. Oh, he had a knife!

Well, it was on the floor of his car.

But they yelled at him to drop it!

OK, so either
1) it was on the floor of his car, or
2) he dropped it when they told him to

ponderingturtle 1st September 2020 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgwenthold (Post 13208520)
I know this is going back off this topic a little, but it reminds me of the Blake case. Oh, he had a knife!

Well, it was on the floor of his car.

But they yelled at him to drop it!

OK, so either
1) it was on the floor of his car, or
2) he dropped it when they told him to

Here they only saw the gun after he dropped it and so of course shot him for having been armed. Good police work that.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2015-20, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.