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-   -   The behaviour of US police officers (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323251)

jimbob 9th October 2017 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12026586)
I only said that a degree gives a good grounding in what is involved "the basics". I never meant to even suggest someone with a degree is now a qualified investigator.

My idea person to investigate the police is someone with a degree who has gone to to work investigations that require interviewing suspects and compiling reports to a set legal standard, but was not in the police.

I want those doing the investigating to be brighter than the police officers they are investigating.

That might be easier in some US police forces (with maximum IQ limits) than in other forces.

Upchurch 12th October 2017 07:29 AM

'Riot King' Brian Rossomanno Has Become the Police Department's Protest Hammer

eta: remembering that protesting it is constitutionally protected.

eeyore1954 12th October 2017 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nessie (Post 12005583)
It has been made abundantly clear by many that in the USA, the police have no duty to protect the public (I believe that may even be backed by law). They are not expected to take risks. It is fine for them to shoot to kill and not arrest. The will inflame situations, make them much worse and think there is no place for patient talking down of violent incidents. They make good people feel scared. They make bad people react with extreme violence back at them because they do not realise the tough guy act causes others to act tough back. The makes many US police no different from vigilante thugs dishing out summary justice.

Why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?

Do you really believe this way? Of course there are on rare occasions bad police who do bad things or police who are basically good but in a stressful situation make the wrong decision.

Upchurch 12th October 2017 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeyore1954 (Post 12030784)
Do you really believe this way? Of course there are on rare occasions bad police who do bad things or police who are basically good but in a stressful situation make the wrong decision.

I can't speak for Nessie, but personally, I would like to see more accountability following those occasions. There is a fundamental flaw in the way some local justice systems work that does not allow for self-correction and that is causing problems.

Stacko 16th October 2017 05:55 PM

There's no problem here.

quadraginta 16th October 2017 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacko (Post 12036932)


As we learn from this CNN article;
Quote:

"Kevin Sumner is one of the best and most highly trained school resource officers in Kentucky,"
Which should set everyone's mind to rest.

He's the gold standard all his fellow officers aspire to.

Upchurch 17th October 2017 04:03 AM

But, at least, this issue was addressed and corrected. In theory, it shouldn't happen again.

Noztradamus 17th October 2017 07:05 PM

US police are amazing, it's just the civilians who don't have the training to properly interact with them.

http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/c...ing/759465001/

http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/c...deo/763499001/

quadraginta 17th October 2017 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noztradamus (Post 12038243)
US police are amazing, it's just the civilians who don't have the training to properly interact with them.

http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/c...ing/759465001/

http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/c...deo/763499001/


Assault by panic attack.

That's a new one.

Hubert Cumberdale 18th October 2017 01:59 AM

Quote:

Mullinax, records show, did not say he had a gun or threaten to harm Johnson. He had a cell phone and yelled at Johnson that he was filming the deputy’s handling of girlfriend Cody.
Gosh, I wander what could have caused the officer to decide to start shooting?

MikeG 18th October 2017 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale (Post 12038470)
Gosh, I wander what could have caused the officer to decide to start shooting?

Seriously? It's OK to shoot at someone just because they're filming you? Or did I miss something?

Dave Rogers 18th October 2017 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeG (Post 12038475)
Seriously? It's OK to shoot at someone just because they're filming you? Or did I miss something?

Apparently it's also OK to charge someone with resisting arrest and remand them in custody even if there aren't any actual charges to warrant arresting them.

Dave

Hubert Cumberdale 18th October 2017 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeG (Post 12038475)
Seriously? It's OK to shoot at someone just because they're filming you? Or did I miss something?

Of course. Filming a police officer could cause them to feel threatened, which logically entitles them to conduct a summary execution of the offender.

William Parcher 18th October 2017 04:43 PM

This 9-year veteran Georgia cop accidentally grabs his gun instead of his Taser and shoots a teen in the arm. Bodycamera footage included...

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Telegraph
A deputy yelled “Taser! Taser!”, then a teenager was shot with a gun


“Taser! Taser!”

That’s what was hollered out as two Baldwin County sheriff’s deputies struggled to cuff an 18-year-old man wearing a yellow Pikachu hat inside a Milledgeville apartment. Deputy Charles Gillis patted his side and pulled out a gun. A pop was followed by screams.

“God dang it!” Gillis yelled. The shot had gone clean through Jamel Jackson’s arm.

The dramatic scene that unfolded Oct. 9 was captured on a deputy’s body camera. The video footage was obtained Monday by The Telegraph.

Deputies went to the apartment after Jackson’s mother called 911 reporting her son had hit her in the face.

Just after the pop, Jackson’s mother can be seen standing with her hands above her head in the living room. Jackson remained still standing and inched a few feet to the kitchen.

Deputy Gillis, visibly distraught, knocked his forehead with both palms.

“Gillis discharged his firearm at the subject,” another deputy said on the radio. “Clean shot through his bicep. He’s fine. … He’s actually giving us a hard time, but it’s OK.”....


http://www.macon.com/news/local/crim...179200731.html

Bikewer 19th October 2017 06:27 AM

There have been several instances of this, most notorious the “BART” shooting of a resisting suspect. The officer involved was convicted of manslaughter, as I recall.

The deputy drew the gun from his pocket? Thinking he had a Taser in there?

This flies in the face of what has become standard procedure. Every department around here mandates that the Taser be carried on the opposite side of the firearm on the duty belt in a special cross-draw holster. Also, the current-model Tasers are bright yellow, and visibly “light up” when activated. You can’t just pull the trigger.

I’m familiar with an earlier incident (not local) where the department had it’s officers carry the firearm in the normal position and the Taser in a “leg drop” holster on the same side.
A female officer drew her firearm instead of the Taser and shot and wounded a suspect.
At that time, the Taser model being sold was black.

A factor here is that officers now carry so many “tools” that in the heat of a confrontation or actual fight, it requires deliberate thinking to get the right item from your belt.
I carry firearm, Taser, pepper-spray, ASP baton, cuffs, and cell phone.

ahhell 19th October 2017 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikewer (Post 12040269)

A factor here is that officers now carry so many “tools” that in the heat of a confrontation or actual fight, it requires deliberate thinking to get the right item from your belt.
I carry firearm, Taser, pepper-spray, ASP baton, cuffs, and cell phone.

This is partially why I advocate taking guns away from most cops. They have several other weapons at there disposal that are much more appropriate for most situations. What's the effective range of taser and what is the typical range at which cops shoot suspects? Or maybe make the cops keep guns in their car with a log kept of every time they take it out?

Darat 19th October 2017 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12039628)
This 9-year veteran Georgia cop accidentally grabs his gun instead of his Taser and shoots a teen in the arm. Bodycamera footage included...




http://www.macon.com/news/local/crim...179200731.html

Giving them a hard time?

William Parcher 19th October 2017 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12040629)
Giving them a hard time?

The kid ends up being something like a deadpan comedian...

"Could y'all maybe label those things so people don't get shot like that"

William Parcher 20th October 2017 11:26 AM

Police officers with body cameras are as likely to use force as those who don’t have them

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washington Post
D.C. police officers wearing body cameras reported using force about as often as colleagues who didn’t have them, and citizen complaints against the two groups were about even, according to a new study that bucks early expectations about the impact of the devices.

When the cameras started to appear in police departments in 2014, experts predicted behavior on both sides of the badge would improve under the watchful eye of the lens. But the look by the District’s in-house research branch suggests otherwise — a finding that could shift the debate on one argument used to put the cameras in virtually every big city police department nationwide.

D.C. Police Chief Peter Newsham said the results surprised department leaders and were “not what we anticipated.” He said that it appears in many police interactions, “cameras didn’t make a difference.”...


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...f98_story.html

Upchurch 20th October 2017 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12042205)
Police officers with body cameras are as likely to use force as those who don’t have them

Under my current hypothesis, I would predict that although body cameras may have increased recording uses of unnecessary force on video, they did not result in a rise in of local prosecutors pressing charges or obtaining convictions on LEOs. If there are no consequences for unnecessary violence, there is no impetus for LEOs to change or correct their own bad behavior. The situation either does not change or gets worse.

ahhell 20th October 2017 01:21 PM

I didn't realize anyone actually expected them to change behavior, at least right away. I've just thought of them as providing evidence for when cops are accused of misbehaving. Which if they have an effect on behavior would take a few highly publicized case of cops getting convicted of a crime or getting out of conviction with the video evidence.

It turns out a cop can't get convicted of littering let along murder/manslaughter in the US.

Edit to add, what upchurch said.

Trebuchet 20th October 2017 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikewer (Post 12040269)

I’m familiar with an earlier incident (not local) where the department had it’s officers carry the firearm in the normal position and the Taser in a “leg drop” holster on the same side.
A female officer drew her firearm instead of the Taser and shot and wounded a suspect.
At that time, the Taser model being sold was black.

That was local to my area, I think. If I recall correctly, the victim was having some sort of psychotic episode, was naked, and up a tree. The taser MAY have been appropriate.

quadraginta 20th October 2017 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 12042410)
That was local to my area, I think. If I recall correctly, the victim was having some sort of psychotic episode, was naked, and up a tree. The taser MAY have been appropriate.


Drop bare?

Nessie 21st October 2017 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upchurch (Post 12042377)
Under my current hypothesis, I would predict that although body cameras may have increased recording uses of unnecessary force on video, they did not result in a rise in of local prosecutors pressing charges or obtaining convictions on LEOs. If there are no consequences for unnecessary violence, there is no impetus for LEOs to change or correct their own bad behavior. The situation either does not change or gets worse.

Exactly. If anything as other cops see what others get away with, there is no reason to modify behaviour.

Bikewer 21st October 2017 06:05 AM

A news article that aired on NPR last night reports on a study done on the Washington DC Police department’s use of body cameras:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...zen-complaints

This was a rather extensive study, and conclusions were that there was little effect on things like citizen complaints, arrests, etc. etc.

quadraginta 21st October 2017 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikewer (Post 12043202)
A news article that aired on NPR last night reports on a study done on the Washington DC Police department’s use of body cameras:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...zen-complaints

This was a rather extensive study, and conclusions were that there was little effect on things like citizen complaints, arrests, etc. etc.


They noted that it does help with prosecutions.

Of civilians, that is. Cops don't have to worry much about trivial irritants like that. That's what they have unions and 'internal' investigations for.

Until they do have to worry about consequences for their misdeeds the cameras will have limited effect on their behavior.

Maybe it needs more time.

Beelzebuddy 23rd October 2017 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikewer (Post 12043202)
A news article that aired on NPR last night reports on a study done on the Washington DC Police department’s use of body cameras:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...zen-complaints

This was a rather extensive study, and conclusions were that there was little effect on things like citizen complaints, arrests, etc. etc.

... because everyone is already on their best behavior:
Quote:

It's to be expected that these cameras might have little impact on the behavior of police officers in Washington, D.C., he says, because this particular force went through about a decade of federal oversight to help improve the department.
Also, they studied cops with and without body cameras, not before and after body cameras were instituted.

Stacko 31st October 2017 08:46 AM

VA police violently arrest a man for swearing.

ponderingturtle 31st October 2017 09:07 AM

In new york the cops defense for raping a teen is that it was legal sex between cops and people in their custody. And that is legal.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/artic...one-in-custody

Upchurch 31st October 2017 09:39 AM

Anecdote:

We have a couple of long-neglected vacant houses next door. Occasionally, we see people hanging around them who clearly shouldn't be there. When this happens, we call the police. A night or two ago, when coming home late, we saw a small light coming from the basement stairwell. For the first time, we actually debated whether or not to call. It had just turned cold and it could reasonably have been just a homeless guy trying to get out of the wind. Or, it could have been yet another before-or-after moment of some nefarious act. We couldn't tell.

So, we asked ourselves: do we call and potentially risk an unnecessary shooting of someone who might just be cold? That's where we are. We rely on the police, but our trust in them has been eroded to the point that we'd almost be willing to let some things go unreported in order to prevent innocent folks from getting hurt.

In the end, we did call it in. We got a call back saying that it is an empty lot (it's not), even after confirming the address. We had no indication that anyone actually checked it out and whoever it was eventually disappeared when we weren't watching, which wouldn't be hard in the dark.

Dave Rogers 31st October 2017 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacko (Post 12056892)

That one seems to be a little different to the rest, and in some ways more sinister; it doesn't appear to be random brutality by individual police officers who are out of control, but rather politically motivated oppression by police officers who are very much under control.

Dave

Dr. Keith 31st October 2017 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upchurch (Post 12056960)
Anecdote:

We have a couple of long-neglected vacant houses next door. Occasionally, we see people hanging around them who clearly shouldn't be there. When this happens, we call the police. A night or two ago, when coming home late, we saw a small light coming from the basement stairwell. For the first time, we actually debated whether or not to call. It had just turned cold and it could reasonably have been just a homeless guy trying to get out of the wind. Or, it could have been yet another before-or-after moment of some nefarious act. We couldn't tell.

So, we asked ourselves: do we call and potentially risk an unnecessary shooting of someone who might just be cold? That's where we are. We rely on the police, but our trust in them has been eroded to the point that we'd almost be willing to let some things go unreported in order to prevent innocent folks from getting hurt.

In the end, we did call it in. We got a call back saying that it is an empty lot (it's not), even after confirming the address. We had no indication that anyone actually checked it out and whoever it was eventually disappeared when we weren't watching, which wouldn't be hard in the dark.

The hesitation you describe is widespread in poor communities and has been for some time. That it is growing and spreading from there instead of being reduced is not a good turn of events.

quadraginta 31st October 2017 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 12056911)
In new york the cops defense for raping a teen is that it was legal sex between cops and people in their custody. And that is legal.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/artic...one-in-custody


New York courts have also found that they have no responsibility to protect someone who is a victim of a violent crime while they are there watching the crimein progress.

Tough job, being a NYC cop.

Dr. Keith 31st October 2017 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 12057011)
That one seems to be a little different to the rest, and in some ways more sinister; it doesn't appear to be random brutality by individual police officers who are out of control, but rather politically motivated oppression by police officers who are very much under control.

Dave

That is indeed scary.

jimbob 31st October 2017 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 12056911)
In new york the cops defense for raping a teen is that it was legal sex between cops and people in their custody. And that is legal.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/artic...one-in-custody

Quote:

They've also reportedly attacked her credibility as a victim
There was a DNA match, and they were in a position of power over her. What more do they need? Whether she said yes or not, they couldn't pretend it was informed consent.

Elsewhere I have pointed out that the UK is far from perfect, but that there is an acceptance that improvements are possible and desirable, which is what seems to be missing in the US.

here is a recent UK story



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41804382

Quote:

The long-awaited review by Dame Elish Angiolini, commissioned two years ago by the then-Home Secretary Theresa May, makes 110 recommendations including:
  • The Independent Police Complaints Commission - due to be reformed in January - should have on-call teams to respond to deaths of custody 24 hours a day
  • Investigators attending the scene of a death should have "experience of all steps necessary to protect a potential crime scene and secure evidence"
  • Police chiefs should face misconduct charges if they fail to preserve the scene of a death that needs investigating
  • Ministers should consider "drying out centres", scrapped as too expensive in the 1980s, amid evidence that intoxication is a factor in many deaths
  • England and Wales should have a "National Coroner Service" to deal with "inconsistencies and fundamental shortcomings"


Nessie 31st October 2017 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers (Post 12057011)
That one seems to be a little different to the rest, and in some ways more sinister; it doesn't appear to be random brutality by individual police officers who are out of control, but rather politically motivated oppression by police officers who are very much under control.

Dave

He offered no resistive force at all. He was put at risk of positional asphyxia. Thick, bully, cops.

newyorkguy 31st October 2017 02:39 PM

1 Attachment(s)
In New York City two police detectives are facing as much as 25 years in prison after being arrested and arraigned on a variety of charges. The incident began when two Brooklyn plainclothes officers stopped a vehicle in the Coney Island section last month and found marijuana and prescription drugs. They then placed the 18-year-old female driver under arrest, handcuffed her and placed her in their police van. They then told her two male companions that the woman would be released in a few hours and warned them not to follow the van. This is what the New York Times has reported happened next:
Quote:

Detective Martins sat next to the woman [in the van] and said that he and his partner were “freaks,” asking her what she wanted to do to avoid being arrested, Mr. DeGaetano said. After tightening the handcuffs, Detective Martins pulled out his penis and forced the woman to perform oral sex on him, [a Brooklyn prosecutor, Frank] DeGaetano said. Then he turned her around, pulled her pants down and raped her, Mr DeGaetano added, as Detective Hall watched through the rearview mirror and the young woman cried and pleaded with Detective Martins to stop.

After the attack, Mr. DeGaetano said, the detectives returned to Coney Island and dropped the woman off about five blocks from their station house. Before she left, they made her take one of her Klonopin pills and told her to “keep her mouth shut,” Mr. DeGaetano said. Link

Instead the woman went to a local hospital where she reported being attacked. An examination was performed in which DNA samples were taken. The city medical examiner’s office determined that it contained samples of both detectives’ sperm. The two officers were arrested Friday, immediately suspended from duty and demoted. Local news media has noted that normally when police are arrested fellow officers turn out for the arraignment in a show of support. Yet when Detectives Martins and Hall were arraigned yesterday not one off-duty officer showed up. They were released after making bail (Martins at $250,000 and Hall at $150,000).

.

mgidm86 31st October 2017 06:40 PM

Nobody I know was hurt by police today, or yesterday, or ever.

You probably missed the story.

pgwenthold 31st October 2017 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 12056911)
In new york the cops defense for raping a teen is that it was legal sex between cops and people in their custody. And that is legal.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/artic...one-in-custody

So a woman offers a cop sex if he doesn't arrest her, he accepts, and it's not a problem, because, hey, she offered, right?

Nessie 1st November 2017 02:14 AM

Not that much power can corrupt weak people.


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