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-   -   Covid-19 and Politics (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342577)

P.J. Denyer 22nd April 2020 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat (Post 13064107)
Why would you sell it to the US though? We don't have enough PPE or beds either. Seems like it would be a bad deal.

I don't think you should interpret Darat's post literally. Defund to the point of collapse, criticise, privatise is a known strategy.

Susheel 22nd April 2020 02:35 AM

Similar situation in India as public health centers and government hospitals are inundated with Covid cases, the poor and destitute are denied access to what little medical services they had earlier. Many are being turned away from hospitals even for serious non-Covid ailments. Over the past few decades the government has slowly dismantled the public medical machinery in preference for a market based economy that favored expensive private hospitals.

Captain_Swoop 22nd April 2020 02:38 AM

Care minister has no idea how many people have died in care homes but she did a simply splendid job of captaining the sixth form hockey team so jolly well give her a chance.

Captain_Swoop 22nd April 2020 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13064596)
The point is that the article you posted cited the Nightingale hospital being empty as evidence that ICUs are coping. The article I posted suggests that the Nightingale hospital is turning patients away because it is understaffed.

There was a piece on this exact thing I read yesterday but can't find it now. There are major staff shortages at the Nightingale.

Squeegee Beckenheim 22nd April 2020 04:27 AM

Another article about the British government ignoring UK companies who can provide certified PPE

Squeegee Beckenheim 22nd April 2020 04:29 AM

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252710832703705090

Quote:

FT tomorrow: the government has been dramatically playing down the #COVID19 figures.
Quote embedded in tweet. The Financial Times' allegation is that the actual figure of covid-19 deaths is more than twice what the official figures are.

P.J. Denyer 22nd April 2020 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13064668)

Interesting 'Live' headline on that page may be relevant to one of the ongoing discussions in this thread

Quote:

UK coronavirus live: Hancock says contact tracing system in place 'in weeks' as death toll rises by 759
No further details at this time.

The Don 22nd April 2020 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13064669)
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252710832703705090

Quote:

FT tomorrow: the government has been dramatically playing down the #COVID19 figures.
Quote embedded in tweet. The Financial Times' allegation is that the actual figure of covid-19 deaths is more than twice what the official figures are.

The figure referenced in the tweet is "up to 41,000" which apparently been determined by analysing Office of National Statistics (ONS) data.

It seems to me entirely reasonable that the official figure is a significant underestimation. The government themselves are quite clear that it only includes those for whom a definitive Covid-19 diagnosis has been obtained (which would exclude those untested and those with a false negative) and in England and Northern Ireland only includes those who have died in hospital.

In other words the government is clear that the official figure is a subset of Coronavirus deaths. Whether the true figure is currently as high as 41,000 is another matter entirely.

What is clear to me is that the UK has mismanaged Coronavirus, especially in the early days and weeks when testing and tracking might have been a way to contain the outbreak.

The Don 22nd April 2020 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13064784)
Interesting 'Live' headline on that page may be relevant to one of the ongoing discussions in this thread

Quote:

UK coronavirus live: Hancock says contact tracing system in place 'in weeks' as death toll rises by 759
No further details at this time.

Maybe it uses the same technology the government are proposing to use to avoid hard borders in Ireland :rolleyes:

If so, those weeks may not be in this year ;)

Squeegee Beckenheim 22nd April 2020 07:45 AM

After Prime Minister's Questions, this paper is praising Keir Starmer and criticising the government

Why is that significant? It's the Daily Mail. Praising the leader of Labour.

Planigale 22nd April 2020 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13064669)
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1252710832703705090



Quote embedded in tweet. The Financial Times' allegation is that the actual figure of covid-19 deaths is more than twice what the official figures are.

Slightly over egged in that there are two sets of official government figures (actually 3 because the NHS also produces a set) https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistic...-daily-deaths/
the hospital deaths and the ONS deaths from death certificates that includes community deaths.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ing10april2020
There are many statements out emphasising the difference between the two in terms of lag and population they are concerned with. It just reads like the journalist only just discovered this. I think that trying to extrapolate data based on hospital death data is not a good idea. The Euromortality data I also posted shows a rapid drop in mortality so assuming that community deaths will continue to rise may not be correct (although I appreciate makes better news).

A detailed discussion of the issues I previously posted was published on 08/04
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/reconc...ata-in-the-uk/
at which site the daily stats including the weekly ONS stats are linked to.

They also allude to how only about half of the rise in deaths are registered as due to covid-19, and get tangled up in whether the other deaths are due to people not coming into hospital with other illnesses and dying (interestingly if you look at doctor strikes when admissions fall, deaths fall), or misregistration, but as I have said the excess attributable mortality, the excess deaths not directly due to covid-19 will be likely due to MI and stroke which we know rise after respiratory infections. This is a testable prediction and I expect we will shortly see some stats published about how strokes and MI rates have gone up. If I am wrong then I am sure people here will remind me my prediction was faulty.

Planigale 22nd April 2020 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13064813)
After Prime Minister's Questions, this paper is praising Keir Starmer and criticising the government

Why is that significant? It's the Daily Mail. Praising the leader of Labour.

If they had been reading here they wouldn't have made the mistake I have been told off for being over pedantic about. Their colourful graph confuses date of reporting of deaths with date of deaths. Perhaps the daily fail needs to come here rather than us being posted over there!

There is a simple answer to why the number of tests being done is falling in the UK although capacity is rising, we are over the peak so the number of new cases requiring testing is falling.

Planigale 22nd April 2020 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13064790)
The figure referenced in the tweet is "up to 41,000" which apparently been determined by analysing Office of National Statistics (ONS) data.

It seems to me entirely reasonable that the official figure is a significant underestimation. The government themselves are quite clear that it only includes those for whom a definitive Covid-19 diagnosis has been obtained (which would exclude those untested and those with a false negative) and in England and Northern Ireland only includes those who have died in hospital.

In other words the government is clear that the official figure is a subset of Coronavirus deaths. Whether the true figure is currently as high as 41,000 is another matter entirely.

What is clear to me is that the UK has mismanaged Coronavirus, especially in the early days and weeks when testing and tracking might have been a way to contain the outbreak.

As you know I think you are wrong. I think that there may be several differences to be considered in early management, but testing and tracking (contact tracing) was not a failure. You have been unable to identify a failure in the process. Probably more important was a delay in social distancing. Failure to (which might have been very difficult) to close the border effectively with compulsory quarantine of those arriving from Europe was probably essential. Modelling suggests that contact tracing alone could not contain covid-19, but control would only have been possible in combination with social distancing to drop R0. So earlier introduction of social distancing was probably the most important thing that could have been done, this would have enabled contact tracing to be more effective. Closing schools was probably unnecessary, but restrictions on free movement, clubs, pubs, restaurants concerts etc would have been helpful.

The Don 22nd April 2020 08:56 AM

The government are now inviting the military to the daily briefings:

Quote:

We will also hear from Chris Whitty, the chief medical officer and General Sir Nick Carter, the chief of the defence staff. This will be the first time the UK’s most senior military officer has appeared.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Maybe they think this will give them a veneer of competence. :rolleyes:

The Don 22nd April 2020 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13064884)
As you know I think you are wrong. I think that there may be several differences to be considered in early management, but testing and tracking (contact tracing) was not a failure. You have been unable to identify a failure in the process. Probably more important was a delay in social distancing. Failure to (which might have been very difficult) to close the border effectively with compulsory quarantine of those arriving from Europe was probably essential. Modelling suggests that contact tracing alone could not contain covid-19, but control would only have been possible in combination with social distancing to drop R0. So earlier introduction of social distancing was probably the most important thing that could have been done, this would have enabled contact tracing to be more effective. Closing schools was probably unnecessary, but restrictions on free movement, clubs, pubs, restaurants concerts etc would have been helpful.

It looks like they screwed up on failure to implement testing (when epidemiologists and other experts were screaming for it) AND failing to implement social distancing soon enough. I'm happy to paint this government's abject failure with a very, very broad brush.

Presumably we can add failure to procure sufficient PPE and then having the temerity to blame those NHS personnel who are putting their lives at risk for misusing the PPE to the list of government failures.

There is the longer term failure of failing to maintain the level of preparedness. The Sunday Times article was particularly scathing about that.

On the positive side, the government did get the Nightingale Hospitals up and running - though didn't manage to staff them properly and IMO they were proactive in putting in place measures to protect most people and businesses financially - so it wasn't a complete bust.

The Don 22nd April 2020 09:07 AM

In other news:

Quote:

Coronavirus testing will increase more than five-fold over the next week, the government has promised.

Ministers insist they will meet their target of 100,000 tests a day by the end of April - an increase of 82,000 on Monday's levels.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52383073

I was listening to the radio and it seemed to me that the government will claim success if they have the capacity to conduct 100,000 tests a day by the end of the month rather than actually carrying them out.

This is important because the current capacity is 40,000 tests a day but less than half of that number of tests are being carried out. I can envisage the end of the month rolling around with 30-40,000 tests being carried out on the best day. This simply isn't good enough if 100,000 tests are required - and I presume that this is the minimum requirement.

Planigale 22nd April 2020 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13064907)
It looks like they screwed up on failure to implement testing (when epidemiologists and other experts were screaming for it) AND failing to implement social distancing soon enough. I'm happy to paint this government's abject failure with a very, very broad brush.

Presumably we can add failure to procure sufficient PPE and then having the temerity to blame those NHS personnel who are putting their lives at risk for misusing the PPE to the list of government failures.

There is the longer term failure of failing to maintain the level of preparedness. The Sunday Times article was particularly scathing about that.

On the positive side, the government did get the Nightingale Hospitals up and running - though didn't manage to staff them properly and IMO they were proactive in putting in place measures to protect most people and businesses financially - so it wasn't a complete bust.

Whilst having more tests would have been good, I am not sure that the lack of testing resource was an issue that could have been addressed this year once the pandemic appeared. It was a resilience issue that should have been previously addressed. So I am going to give PHE a pass on this for the moment and pass responsibility to the past.

On PPE issues I (and some of my colleagues) have fairly dim views on the behaviour of some people within the NHS early on who were using PPE inappropriately and wastefully, to some extent this is a family fight and I don't want to get in to it. I do think that the pandemic stockpile was inappropriately biased to flu when it was very clear from briefings over many years there were other high risk viruses, so failure to include sufficient FFP3 (N95) masks and gowns was a failure, but again this was a historic failure.

What I hear from the people involved with purchasing was there was a huge surge in middlemen promising delivery of all sorts of things from ventilators to gloves but often with little evidence that they actually could deliver, and no sales for assessment. I suspect the rather bureaucratic NHS purchasing system could not cope with sourcing in this world of middlemen and multiple vendors and perhaps someone from a more commercial background should have been engaged. Again important resilience issues, Germany and the Czech republic and China who had manufacturing capacity for PPE banned exports even with the EU, so plans on purchasing failed. Clearly resilience planning requires maintaining more UK capability.

There was always some doubt about how the Nightingale hospitals would be staffed, since it would always involve taking staff from the acute hospitals already under pressure. I have had an offer to go to the local Nightingale hospital, but it is dependant on my own hospital releasing me, which they won't do. (As a huge Mash fan I fantasise that it will be like working at the 4077th, the problem is I am probably more like Major Burns and less like Hawkeye than I'd like to admit. However being slightly OCD and pedantic has virtues in healthcare, in real life I'd probably report Hawkeye to the GMC!)

Planigale 22nd April 2020 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13064915)
In other news:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52383073

I was listening to the radio and it seemed to me that the government will claim success if they have the capacity to conduct 100,000 tests a day by the end of the month rather than actually carrying them out.

This is important because the current capacity is 40,000 tests a day but less than half of that number of tests are being carried out. I can envisage the end of the month rolling around with 30-40,000 tests being carried out on the best day. This simply isn't good enough if 100,000 tests are required - and I presume that this is the minimum requirement.

Bizarrely this is a good thing, if infections are falling then demand falls. Moving towards some sort of broader screening process requires the clinical need to have fallen.

Squeegee Beckenheim 22nd April 2020 10:59 AM

The American-owned firm responsible for the UK's PPE stockpile was sold 2 weeks ago

Skeptic Ginger 22nd April 2020 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13060014)
Alternatively perhaps you have no idea how the real world works. Just how rapidly do you think you can source the raw material and set up a factory producing water repellant material, then turn it into finished goods and CE test it? Bearing in mind countries such as the US and Germany will be preventing the export of material. Perhaps the fact the same issue is being reported across the world might suggest that this is slightly more difficult than you think?

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/...asks-and-gowns
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-...20-3?r=US&IR=T

If people had started in Jan it would be a different story.

Skeptic Ginger 22nd April 2020 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13060440)
...

One cause of the issues is that the pre-existing pandemic plan which the government was operating from was too biased towards flu, and had not assessed risks and needs for other high risk respiratory viruses. Person to person transmission of the novel coronavirus was only reported on 21 January. By Mid-March (< 8/52 after the first report of person to person transmission and at the same time as the government switched from a containment strategy (isolation and contact tracing all cases)), contracts had gone out for UK production of gowns and the specialist fluid resistant fabric needed. During this time the requirements for PPE for health staff were continually changing. It is not as if there was clarity about exactly what was needed at the beginning, the mechanism of transmission contact, droplet, aerosol, symptomatic or pre-symptomatic was very unclear early on.

I don't know about the UK but that's not what happened in the US. Here our incompetent POTUS dismantled a lot of the pandemic response team and resoources.

Yes we had pandemic response plans geared toward flu. I was involved in developing the regional pandemic plan here when it looked like the H5N1 HPAI might break out. Looking back on it, not a lot was directly useful.

But we also began planning for SARS and knew things full well like the fact not only were gowns important, but hanging them outside the room and reusing them was contributing to the spread of SARS.

Yes, that planning was dropped when SARS was controlled. And worse, vaccine funding and research dried up. But had the pandemic response team still been intact, they would have known things like gowns were a critical part of PPE. We also knew that from the ebola outbreak that reached here.

But when you have no pandemic expertise and only an ignorant narcissist as POTUS who simply imagines there is no problem, you don't have even the beginning of PPE stockpiles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13060440)
...One thing that I think probably delayed a response was the then government was criticised for over-reacting to H1N1 pandemic flu, SARS and MERS never emerged as pandemics, so there may have been a desire to not over-react. In retrospect it is easy to say 'act sooner' but if it had all fizzled out what would the reaction have been? Were the trigger points in the European pandemic plan set wrong? ECDC pandemic plans included guidance on when to start sourcing large amounts of PPE; which was of course screwed up when the sole European manufacturers in Germany were banned from exporting PPE out of Germany. So the government had to look to other suppliers rather than the planned supplier.

Clearly the pre-existing pandemic plan was too limited, it had not included a risk that EU countries would close borders to exports to other EU countries. The government probably stuck to the plan a bit too long, but it is unclear at what point it was clear that transmission of SARS-CoV-2 was significantly different from the assumptions made based on flu.

That may all be true for the UK and the EU but it is not the only factors involved in the US failure to respond.

Skeptic Ginger 22nd April 2020 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13060493)
There are still quite a lot of garment and related producers in the UK that can cope with ad hoc orders that the government could have requisitioned which would simply have needed the patterns, which again the government could have requisitioned or arranged. Most machinists can turn their hand to anything, whether this week it is sewing rag dolls, next week cushion covers, or PP gowns. In regular times if you do a search on any UK job recruitment site you will find there are dozens of companies at any one time looking for machinists (that may not be the case at the moment of course!)

An ex colleague of mine has been using his hobby, 3D printing to produce face guards and he has recruited quite a few other people to do this. Granted that is only a few hundred a week but again this is an area the government could have adopted a “WW2” approach. All it would have taken was to release the 3D model file, and asked all the hobbyists to start turning them out, this could have started months ago.

Unfortunately at least in the UK we have politicians with very little understanding of how production, manufacturing and operations work. As their ineptitude has demonstrated. Hotlines and badges do not get things to happen.

3D face shield production popped up fast here among volunteers with access to the printers. The plans were shared and people started producing them everywhere.

Skeptic Ginger 22nd April 2020 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13060515)
You clearly have a thing about contact tracing; but what specifically are you saying the government didn't do at the right time (whatever that is) with regards to contact tracing. I can understand that people have strong feelings that something must have gone wrong, but just sometimes things still go wrong despite all the correct actions being taken. The one thing that is clear from dealing with crises, disasters, major incidents is that the response is better if people stick to a plan rather than everyone winging it in an uncoordinated fashion. You are strong on generalisations but weak on specifics. What is it that you think the government did not decide to do on which day that you would have done, or a non-Brexit supporting government would have done? (Preferably any decision is not dependant on retrospective knowledge.)

Again, only speaking for the outbreak here in the US, or more specifically WA State: Man flies in from Wuhan, develops symptoms the next day and ends up in isolation in a hospital with the diagnosis of COVID 19. There might have been some cautions to the family members but no one looked at anyone else this man came in contact with from the plane he arrived on to all the people he had contact with from the day he arrived until he was in isolation.

Next thing we know there is a deadly outbreak in a nursing home. The ED staff that treated the first patients from there and some of the EMS responders were exposed not knowing there was COVID in the area at first. They picked up on it quickly but not before some EMS workers were infected and not before one of the ED doctors got infected and came incredibly close to dying. (His survival story is in the news.) Public health took more than a week to even look at the problem growing in that nursing home and never did more than a cursory job of contact tracing. In their defense we have underfunded our public health in this state for years.

From the nursing home a visitor went home to Georgia and symptoms developed there. Not sure when she was warned but the visitors here were not given good advice on self quarantine. They had to hold a press conference of their own to get any attention to the problem. I won't review the rest of that story.

Next, by accident a COVID case is discovered in a person who thought he had the flu. It didn't take long for one of our local researchers to connect that genome to the first case in the hospital.

Now instead of any attempt to get control of the situation by contact tracing, public health being understaffed as they were simply moved on to the next stage, mitigation.

Then there were the announcements from our top public heath officials that only people with symptoms and exposure should be tested (covering up for the testing debacle) and no asymptomatic cases were spreading it. That went on long after the evidence of asymptomatic spread piled up.

And many healthcare workers in nursing homes were never given proper PPE. Again with the shortage of N95s they were simply told surgical masks (also called procedure masks) were sufficient. The excuses for that ******** were numerous.

So it's crap that contact tracing early on wouldn't have prevented a lot of spread. And given this disease has spread to other states and rural areas, it's clear no one bothered with contact tracing there when it was still early enough one could have accomplished prevention with contact tracing.

Skeptic Ginger 22nd April 2020 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 13060646)
Yes I know you confuse a stated plan and a policy for the doing.

I don’t.

That continues daily here with each POTUS press conference.

Skeptic Ginger 22nd April 2020 11:45 AM

Well that's my limit for now, I'm only 5 pages behind in the thread.

GlennB 22nd April 2020 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13064866)
If they had been reading here they wouldn't have made the mistake I have been told off for being over pedantic about. Their colourful graph confuses date of reporting of deaths with date of deaths.

:confused: The graph would look exactly the same by both methods of counting. It would be fractionally adrift all the way to the top, but the error in the 'daily' figure would be insignificant in the grand running total, and certainly not discernible in such a graph.

Emily's Cat 22nd April 2020 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer (Post 13064601)
I don't think you should interpret Darat's post literally. Defund to the point of collapse, criticise, privatise is a known strategy.

Ahh, I was assuming it was humor that I was missing, but I had no context.

The Atheist 22nd April 2020 12:37 PM

Jeez, you'd think this thread was entitled Covid and UK Politics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 13064330)
I a m not currently residing in the "smartest place", my parents are (and I am really thankful for that).

That's even better then - a young bloke like you will be fine!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 13064330)
Since the main source and spread of the disease is among the upper castes and affluent, and as casual casteism and untouchability is still a thing, slum dwellers have not been as affected.

Excuse me if I find that that entirely Karmic. I hope it stays out of the slums, but when I saw there had already been deaths I couldn't see how it wouldn't spread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 13064330)
Another group that is in grave danger are the frontline medical staff with lack of PPE. There have also been cases of them being evicted from their residences and or harrassed by neighbours. In one instance, a community in Tamil Nadu refused burial of a doctor who died of Covid. The police had to intervene and arrests had to be made to ensure the doctor received some dignity atleast in death.

Yeah, I saw the story about the dead doc.

It might turn out that counting the dead medics will be the only way of knowing the real cost to India. I've been concerned about the situation there from the start - seems like the perfect place for the virus to run unchecked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 13064603)
Similar situation in India as public health centers and government hospitals are inundated with Covid cases, the poor and destitute are denied access to what little medical services they had earlier.

Is Modi pals with Putin?

That seems like the apparent Russian approach - if they die in the ambulance waiting 16 hours to even get to the hospital, you're not sure what they died of, so don't count them.

The Atheist 22nd April 2020 12:40 PM

Meanwhile, in other political news (and touching on my reply to Susheel), do we count the millions who starve as a result of Covid-19 as victims of the disease, or just unlucky?

It looks a certainty that the famines accompanying the pandemic will probably kill a lot more people.

As of right now, there has been somewhere over $5 trillion handed out in stimulus packages worldwide. Less than 1% of that would ensure the worst doesn't happen.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52373888

The Atheist 22nd April 2020 12:42 PM

And this morning's final story on politics, is how the disease and lousy government is de-stabilising South and Central America to the point where criminal gangs have taken up the slack: https://www.thedailybeast.com/you-kn...a-covid-savior

I'm guessing the story of Al Capone lives strong in the minds of crooks everywhere.

angrysoba 22nd April 2020 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don (Post 13064903)
The government are now inviting the military to the daily briefings:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Maybe they think this will give them a veneer of competence. :rolleyes:

I bet the army will be happy with the plans to spread the blame about. They’ll have the Queen up there soon.

Planigale 22nd April 2020 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 13065094)
:confused: The graph would look exactly the same by both methods of counting. It would be fractionally adrift all the way to the top, but the error in the 'daily' figure would be insignificant in the grand running total, and certainly not discernible in such a graph.

Actually it would be very clear deaths had plateaued, and perhaps were falling.
https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uplo...21th-April.png

Dr.Sid 22nd April 2020 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13064668)

It's the same everywhere. Problem is not everyone can bribe these days. You think you can make an offer to the government and that's it ? Plz.

Susheel 22nd April 2020 01:38 PM

The Atheist...I am 53, but thanks anyway. :D

GlennB 22nd April 2020 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planigale (Post 13065169)
Actually it would be very clear deaths had plateaued, and perhaps were falling.

Please learn to scale any images you post. That one went way off my screen.

The Mail graph is cumulative, not daily. The true date of occurrence of the death is insignificant in such a graph.

Plus: "These numbers will be revised upwards over next week"

Planigale 22nd April 2020 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlennB (Post 13065194)
Please learn to scale any images you post. That one went way off my screen.

The Mail graph is cumulative, not daily. The true date of occurrence of the death is insignificant in such a graph.

Plus: "These numbers will be revised upwards over next week"

Apologies fits perfectly for me, it is just a link to the original image.

I was referring to the bottom graph, deaths / day; which actually seems to use deaths reported that day not deaths occurring that day. I would post a link to the image but I'd probably upset you again!

Susheel 22nd April 2020 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 13065148)
Meanwhile, in other political news (and touching on my reply to Susheel), do we count the millions who starve as a result of Covid-19 as victims of the disease, or just unlucky?

It looks a certainty that the famines accompanying the pandemic will probably kill a lot more people.

As of right now, there has been somewhere over $5 trillion handed out in stimulus packages worldwide. Less than 1% of that would ensure the worst doesn't happen.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52373888

In India it's not just starvation. A twelve year old girl died on her long trek home because of the lockdown. Her family were daily wagers who lost the source of income and also were left guessing about what kind of aid they could receive. The meal packets distributed in many states are few and far between. They have also been evicted from their temporary residences and the summer heat has just begun to peak. There have been a number of suicides where parents have killed their children and killed themselves.
There are various volunteer organizations and even individuals doing their best, but it isn't enough. The number of deaths resulting from the gruelling trek many of these people were forced into is criminal.
Add to this the dirty tricks played by the BJP in non BJP states through the captive media. BJP funded news channels have indulged in rumour mongering in various non BJP states resulting in violence and even a lynching two days ago in Maharashtra.
And the supreme court came out with this:

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/pay...w/75274875.cms

They have managed to pack the courts with RSS acolytes and their current concern is in enabling the rounding up journalists and activists critical of the government.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...ng-delhi-riots

Captain_Swoop 22nd April 2020 02:20 PM

Quote:

Downing Street denies anyone put pressure on the Foreign Office permanent secretary to retract his testimony to MPs that a "political decision" was taken not to join EU schemes to source medical equipment
Looks like Cummings spent the afternoon putting electrodes on Simon McDonald’s knackers, now the retraction. It is beyond satire. How stupid does this government think we are?


EU are now corroborating what Sir Simon McDonald said in his video testimony to the select committee yesterday

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52377087

This makes the retraction letter a lie

The Don 22nd April 2020 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop (Post 13065227)
Looks like Cummings spent the afternoon putting electrodes on Simon McDonald’s knackers, now the retraction. It is beyond satire. How stupid does this government think we are?


EU are now corroborating what Sir Simon McDonald said in his video testimony to the select committee yesterday

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52377087

This makes the retraction letter a lie

They were elected with a thumping majority - so pretty ******* stupid.

The Atheist 22nd April 2020 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 13065192)
The Atheist...I am 53, but thanks anyway. :D

That's young enough to still be classed as young, and the stats in that group are pretty good. I hope your air isn't too polluted, though, because that is a bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 13065211)
In India it's not just starvation. A twelve year old girl died on her long trek home because of the lockdown. Her family were daily wagers who lost the source of income and also were left guessing about what kind of aid they could receive. The meal packets distributed in many states are few and far between. They have also been evicted from their temporary residences and the summer heat has just begun to peak. There have been a number of suicides where parents have killed their children and killed themselves.

That's not being reported very widely.

I'm a bit lost for words. Certainly puts things in a touch of perspective for places like NZ, which is doing it very easy so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susheel (Post 13065211)
They have managed to pack the courts with RSS acolytes and their current concern is in enabling the rounding up journalists and activists critical of the government.

Jesus, the corruption there makes US look like a kindergarten Mafia.

I can see why so many of your countrymen have already moved here and millions more want to.


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