International Skeptics Forum

International Skeptics Forum (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumindex.php)
-   Social Issues & Current Events (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82)
-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

Belz... 28th February 2019 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle (Post 12617468)
And yet when the child assertion matches the societal mold we don't question their competence to make such a statement.

Yeah, figure that. When a child's assertion matches our objective perceptions, we don't question it. Great revelation there, Turtle.

cullennz 28th February 2019 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617366)

Just because someone is a child does not mean that their evaluations of themselves are without merit and can be casually dismissed. There is a difference between 'tomboys' or 'sissies' and children who are transgendered.

Putting aside the fact I haven't seen anyone on here claiming they should just be dismissed, I am curious to know what age you feel IS too young to be making irreversible changes to children's bodies, going on what the child says the feel.

quadraginta 28th February 2019 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12617435)
Still too young for children to understand their sexuality and gender fully. Hell, before 25 it's often hard enough for them.


Maybe not "fully". There are people in middle age who don't understand their sexuality and gender fully.

How about enough?

Enough to choose whether or not they want to postpone puberty?

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12617447)
Depends how you look at it. As a point in a particular developmental process, it's pretty young. The major development into maturity is still ahead.


There are lots of things we give children of that age sufficient agency to be involved in choices which affect them.

What is so special about this one?

Quote:


As a percentage of an average human lifespan it's... I dunno? Entirely subjective?
So what?


I note that you still don't address whether or not delaying puberty, a reversible process. is "child abuse".

theprestige 28th February 2019 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617641)
I note that you still don't address whether or not delaying puberty, a reversible process. is "child abuse".

Probably because I'm not Belz... Not my circus, not my monkey.

Belz... 28th February 2019 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617641)
Maybe not "fully". There are people in middle age who don't understand their sexuality and gender fully.

How about enough?

Ok that's a fair point. I'd say at 25 they understand it enough. I don't know before that, but I'm willing to go down to the age when we consider them adults (18 where I live).

You?

Quote:

There are lots of things we give children of that age sufficient agency to be involved in choices which affect them.

What is so special about this one?
What's so special about driving? Or drinking? Or having sex?

Belz... 28th February 2019 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12617651)
Probably because I'm not Belz... Not my circus, not my monkey.

You're definitely not Belz.... He's much more handsome than you.

As for Quadra's question, I'm not particularily knowledgeable about the procedure, so I don't know exactly how reversible it is. I'd think that our biological systems don't take well to this sort of thing.

quadraginta 28th February 2019 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12617477)
Prepubescent children do not know what the changes caused by puberty are like, and cannot know until they experience it. Their opinions about not wanting to go through those changes are uninformed.


What utter hogwash. There are plenty of sources of information aside from experiencing puberty.


Quote:

Delaying the choice through androgen blockers doesn't solve the problem, because while they may be older at a later date, they still won't be informed because the only way to truly get informed is to go through the process.



The problem it is intended to solve is to pause the process until the individual has reached an age where they are deemed by society to be sufficiently mature to decide for themselves.

Waiting is the only way for them to do that.

Yor assertion that the only way to be adequately informed about the effects of puberty is to experience it remains hogwash.

Quote:




You say that like there's no psychological cost to the treatment. I don't think that's even remotely safe to assume.

I don't know what gives you that idea.

Like almost all medical interventions (even to the decision to take an aspirin or not) there are risks and benefits to be weighed. The proper question is if the costs and risks are outweighed by the benefits.

There is a substantial body of peer-reviewed research and evidence which strongly suggests that they are.

How much have you found which suggests that they are not?

theprestige 28th February 2019 12:19 PM

If you delay puberty until the person turns 18, is it no longer child abuse, because they're no longer a child?

Related issue: Doesn't brain development continue into the mid-twenties? Does delaying puberty delay that process as well? Does a delayed-puberty 20 year old have a 20 year old's brain maturity? Or are they still stuck with the intellectual capacity of a 12 year old?

Belz... 28th February 2019 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617669)
What utter hogwash. There are plenty of sources of information aside from experiencing puberty.

Yeah you can read about it in a book but the point is that nothing beats going through the process, especially since everybody does at some point anyway.

Quote:

The problem it is intended to solve is to pause the process until the individual has reached an age where they are deemed by society to be sufficiently mature to decide for themselves.
Zig's point is that the process itself is part of the maturing. Remove the process, and you stilt that maturation. It doesn't sounds like a great idea.

Belz... 28th February 2019 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12617670)
If you delay puberty until the person turns 18, is it no longer child abuse, because they're no longer a child?

Related issue: Doesn't brain development continue into the mid-twenties? Does delaying puberty delay that process as well? Does a delayed-puberty 20 year old have a 20 year old's brain maturity? Or are they still stuck with the intellectual capacity of a 12 year old?

Also: how does one ethically make a clinical test of this?

theprestige 28th February 2019 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617669)
What utter hogwash. There are plenty of sources of information aside from experiencing puberty.

Information sure. But no other sources of experience other than experience itself. And a common refrain from people who have experienced things is "studying this experience via other sources of information didn't prepare me for the experience itself!"

Nor do pre-pubescent children have the decades of diverse and focused experiences, nor even the mental maturity, to effectively estimate the value or risk of something they haven't experienced.

Then there's the issue that responses to experience change over time. As a child, I couldn't stand cheddar cheese. Somewhere during puberty, cheddar cheese became my favorite kind of cheese. Same with avocados.

So yeah, I don't buy at all the notion that a twelve year old is competent to determine whether puberty is a good idea or not.

Crawtator 28th February 2019 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12617670)
If you delay puberty until the person turns 18, is it no longer child abuse, because they're no longer a child?

Related issue: Doesn't brain development continue into the mid-twenties? Does delaying puberty delay that process as well? Does a delayed-puberty 20 year old have a 20 year old's brain maturity? Or are they still stuck with the intellectual capacity of a 12 year old?

I don't think that would be the case at all. Kallmann syndrome can result in a complete lack of onset of puberty, but none of the listed symptoms of this syndrome seem to relate to brain maturity, at least in cognition. I could be wrong because I haven't looked that closely at this condition, but remembered hearing about it and thought someone could be interested in it.

quadraginta 28th February 2019 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12617661)
Ok that's a fair point. I'd say at 25 they understand it enough. I don't know before that, but I'm willing to go down to the age when we consider them adults (18 where I live).

You?


Yes. I think 18 is old enough for someone to decide for themselves (with appropriate counseling) to begin HRT.

I think that delaying puberty until they reach that point is a prudent precaution. Otherwise the choice is being taken from them. HRT is far more effective when the effects of puberty do not have to be dealt with as well.

Gender transition in general is far less invasive if the effects of puberty do not need to be contended with.

Quote:


What's so special about driving? Or drinking? Or having sex?

Good question. I haven't suggested that there is.

What is the cost of having someone wait a few years before they are granted those privileges by society?

Are the children harmed? No.

Because transgender children who are forced to suffer an irreversible puberty which they don't want when there are sufficiently benign ways to avoid that are be harmed.

Child abuse.

Belz... 28th February 2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617696)
Yes. I think 18 is old enough for someone to decide for themselves (with appropriate counseling) to begin HRT.

I think that delaying puberty until they reach that point is a prudent precaution.

Wait a second. You are proposing to delay puberty until they are old enough to make the decision, but by then the puberty not only should be underway, it should be mostly over. You don't think that could cause serious issues?

Quote:

Good question. I haven't suggested that there is.
Well, yes you have. You've suggested that having to wait for a decision on this one was because it is special. Wouldn't that be true of all things for which we wait for the child to be older to allow them to make decisions?

Quote:

Because transgender children who are forced to suffer an irreversible puberty which they don't want when there are sufficiently benign ways to avoid that are be harmed.

Child abuse.
Come on, man. They're not forced into anything. Puberty happens. (which, I'm told, means it doesn't exist)

quadraginta 28th February 2019 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12617670)
If you delay puberty until the person turns 18, is it no longer child abuse, because they're no longer a child?


Haw, haw.

I expect better of you.


Quote:

Related issue: Doesn't brain development continue into the mid-twenties? Does delaying puberty delay that process as well? Does a delayed-puberty 20 year old have a 20 year old's brain maturity? Or are they still stuck with the intellectual capacity of a 12 year old?

I have not seen anything which suggests that delaying the onset of puberty for a few years has any effect on cognition.

I'll be interested in looking at whatever evidence you have that it does.

Crawtator 28th February 2019 12:40 PM

Interesting, but long, article on this issue...

https://pediatrics.aappublications.o...39/6/e20163177

cullennz 28th February 2019 12:47 PM

So let's get this straight

To avoid hassles later from stigma, we think it is a good idea to have weird looking man kid 18 year olds having to walk around whose bodies have been artificially stopped going through puberty?

theprestige 28th February 2019 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617696)
Yes. I think 18 is old enough for someone to decide for themselves (with appropriate counseling) to begin HRT.

18 years old is just a social convention, though. It's a "common sense" estimate of when a person has reached an adequate level of maturity. We generally hope that they're that mature a few years earlier, but we build in some slack.

This doesn't mean that 18 is a magical rubicon of maturity. You turn 18 and suddenly you know what's what and can decide things for yourself. It's just our estimate of how long it typically takes for that maturation process to get far enough along.

Retard the maturation process, and that estimate probably has to go out the window.

The Atheist 28th February 2019 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12617719)
So let's get this straight

To avoid hassles later from stigma, we think it is a good idea to have weird looking man kid 18 year olds having to walk around whose bodies have been artificially stopped going through puberty?

Yeah, sound plan.

It's not like kids would see it as a form of punishment for being different, and it's a certainty none of those weedy, voice-not-yet-broken 17 year olds would be bullied.

Some people need to buy a calendar.

theprestige 28th February 2019 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617707)
Haw, haw.

I expect better of you.

I wish you were expecting a serious question, because that's what I asked. I feel like you haven't really given much thought to what the maturation process actually is, and what actually distinguishes a child from an adult. I feel like you're treating my question as a joke, because it's easier than actually stopping to think about what 18 years of age actually means in terms of this discussion.

Quote:

I have not seen anything which suggests that delaying the onset of puberty for a few years has any effect on cognition.

I'll be interested in looking at whatever evidence you have that it does.
I'll let you know if I find any.

But the way I see it, you're the one who's arguing that delaying maturation is safe and ethical. So it's on you to investigate related questions of maturity. If you can't answer the question of brain maturity, then I'm probably not ready to agree to your proposal.

quadraginta 28th February 2019 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12617676)
Yeah you can read about it in a book but the point is that nothing beats going through the process, especially since everybody does at some point anyway.


That's right. And so will the "children" who have elected (with the advice and counsel of medical professionals) to wait until they are allowed to decide for themselves whether or not to proceed with HRT.

Until that time they have the advice and experience of others to help guide them in a choice which has few if any significant costs compared to the inability to make that choice.

There are a lot more resources available to them than simply what they "read in a book". But then, I expect you know that.

I have been involved in more than a few support groups for the transgendered. The ages encountered run the full gamut from early teens to senior citizens. There is no disagreement at all about the detrimental effects of being needlessly forced to undergo a puberty which is not wanted.

Quote:


Zig's point is that the process itself is part of the maturing. Remove the process, and you stilt that maturation. It doesn't sounds like a great idea.

Puberty isn't being "removed". It's being postponed. And not for all that long.

The idea that this somehow interferes in some significant fashion with "maturing" is one which could use some foundation, because I have yet to see any.

Maturity is a rather ill-defined concept to begin with. I have known a lot of children who at a very young age were far more mature than many adults will ever be able to hope to be.

There doesn't seem to be a hard and fast schedule. Our society has chosen some numbers (like 18 years old) which serve to encompass the larger proportion of its members as far as legally engaging in certain activities. The numbers are chosen out of convenience and necessity. As I have often heard said, "We have to draw the line somewhere."

If you think there has been a great deal of consensus as to where that line need be drawn then I suggest you review recent as well as older history.

But no one sane is going to suggest that all people become equally mature on the day they turn 18, or were equally immature the day before.

You and zig seem to be placing a lot of value on the experience of puberty.

Much of maturity is related to experience. I certainly find that to be true. Transgender (and LGB) youths and young adults that I have met seem to in general be far more 'mature' than others of their age cohorts. I expect that is because they have had a lot of experiences which those others have not.

Is this a maturity which can inform a decision like electing to postpone puberty?

With the adjunct of counseling and medical supervision ... yes. I believe it is.

Belz... 28th February 2019 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617777)
That's right. And so will the "children" who have elected (with the advice and counsel of medical professionals) to wait until they are allowed to decide for themselves whether or not to proceed with HRT.

An up to ten year delay doesn't sound like it won't have negative consequences.

Quote:

Until that time they have the advice and experience of others to help guide them in a choice which has few if any significant costs compared to the inability to make that choice.
But they can't know because their hormones haven't fully kicked in yet.

Quote:

There are a lot more resources available to them than simply what they "read in a book". But then, I expect you know that.
Yes, that was hyperbole.

Quote:

You and zig seem to be placing a lot of value on the experience of puberty.
I just think that, if I don't let children drive or drink, that's because we don't consider them mature enough for that. Seems like having experience and good self-awareness, including your full development, is key to making such complex and far-reaching decisions.

Ziggurat 28th February 2019 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617777)
You and zig seem to be placing a lot of value on the experience of puberty.

Because it's pretty god damn consequential, particularly in regards to sex and sexuality. Hormones change both your body and your brain. The fact that you don't feel like you fit in your prepubescent body doesn't mean you will feel like you don't fit in your postpubescent body.

quadraginta 28th February 2019 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12617754)
Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617707)
Haw, haw.

I expect better of you.

I wish you were expecting a serious question, because that's what I asked. I feel like you haven't really given much thought to what the maturation process actually is, and what actually distinguishes a child from an adult. I feel like you're treating my question as a joke, because it's easier than actually stopping to think about what 18 years of age actually means in terms of this discussion.


I've given it a great deal of thought. And have read about it, and discussed it with professionals in the field.

You're the one who seems to think it is some sort of magical transition point.

Quote:

Quote:

I have not seen anything which suggests that delaying the onset of puberty for a few years has any effect on cognition.

I'll be interested in looking at whatever evidence you have that it does.
I'll let you know if I find any.

But the way I see it, you're the one who's arguing that delaying maturation is safe and ethical. So it's on you to investigate related questions of maturity. If you can't answer the question of brain maturity, then I'm probably not ready to agree to your proposal.

I wasn't the one who brought it up. I have been talking about delaying the physiological process of puberty.

Zig proposed this conceit that there is somehow some significant and meaningful connection between that and "maturity"... and/or "maturation", whatever the difference may be. Then you jumped on that bandwagon with him.

It isn't my job to refute some conjecture which you have constructed out of thin air. Start by showing me that such a problem even exists. That's on you, not me.

quadraginta 28th February 2019 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12617803)
Because it's pretty god damn consequential, particularly in regards to sex and sexuality. Hormones change both your body and your brain. The fact that you don't feel like you fit in your prepubescent body doesn't mean you will feel like you don't fit in your postpubescent body.


And by the time you find out you don't ...

... well, darn! It's too late. Oh, well. Too bad.

If only there were someway to anticipate that such a likelihood might exist. You know. Something like years of counseling and therapy.

Ziggurat 28th February 2019 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617809)
I wasn't the one who brought it up. I have been talking about delaying the physiological process of puberty.

Zig proposed this conceit that there is somehow some significant and meaningful connection between that and "maturity"... and/or "maturation", whatever the difference may be. Then you jumped on that bandwagon with him.

I presume you are referring to post #360. I suggest you read it again. It does not contain the word "maturity" or "maturation". I argued that you can't fully understand what puberty does to you unless you experience it, but that wasn't a claim about generalized maturation, it was only about one's understanding of puberty specifically.

Ziggurat 28th February 2019 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12617813)
And by the time you find out you don't ...

... well, darn! It's too late. Oh, well. Too bad.

If only there were someway to anticipate that such a likelihood might exist. You know. Something like years of counseling and therapy.

There is no risk-free course of action. And there are people who transition that later regret it.

deadrose 28th February 2019 02:17 PM

I suppose we should tell women they can't use birth control until they've already been pregnant then, how do they know they don't want a baby if they haven't experienced one?

Puberty brings on a number of irreversible changes to the body - to the bones, to hair growth, to the vocal cords, not just to the genitals. Some of them can be repaired to a degree by expensive plastic surgery, but most can't.

Puberty-blocking drugs do only that. They don't transition a person, they just keep them from undergoing irreversible changes. This also means they don't have to spend their adolescence fighting to think clearly through a tsunami of hormones, so in many ways they should be more mentally mature than the average sex-addled adolescent.

cullennz 28th February 2019 02:38 PM

Quite and interesting read on Puberty blocking

https://thenationalpulse.com/politic...nder-children/

Ziggurat 28th February 2019 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadrose (Post 12617899)
I suppose we should tell women they can't use birth control until they've already been pregnant then, how do they know they don't want a baby if they haven't experienced one?

Not equivalent. They know what it's like to be not pregnant. But you cannot remain prepubescent for your whole life. That isn't a viable solution.

Quote:

Puberty-blocking drugs do only that. They don't transition a person, they just keep them from undergoing irreversible changes.
But they do have side effects, some of which can be quite serious (such as hepatitis).

deadrose 28th February 2019 03:16 PM

Going through puberty has serious side effects too, especially if your body and gender don't match.

Bad jokes aside, would you feel comfortable if you started sprouting breasts, wider hips, and subcutaneous fat tomorrow? How about getting your period? For the females in the room, how about a beard and deep voice or a receding hairline? Random erections?

Can you see how this could be misery-inducing to a trans teenager? Combined with the mood swings caused by those surges of hormones, it can cause a lot of severe depression and suicidal behavior. The risks of puberty blockers are a lot lower.

This is The End 28th February 2019 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12617477)
Prepubescent children do not know what the changes caused by puberty are like, and cannot know until they experience it. Their opinions about not wanting to go through those changes are uninformed.


Oh give me a break. "cannot know what the changes caused by puberty are like until they experience it"... cannot huh? Get the **** out of here with that ****.

That would be like saying I have no idea what Africa is like because I have never been there.

A human being can absorb a sufficient amount of information about pretty much anything to where they reach a point where they know just as much about it as someone who has experienced it directly. Or definitely enough to make a knowledgeable decision. Through text, video, simulation, and many other methods of learning.

Now whether or not they are intelligent enough to make that decision is an entirely different thing... That age will vary widely per person. But that has **** all to do with the waste you are trying to sell.

Lambchops 28th February 2019 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadrose (Post 12617976)
Going through puberty has serious side effects too, especially if your body and gender don't match.

Bad jokes aside, would you feel comfortable if you started sprouting breasts, wider hips, and subcutaneous fat tomorrow? How about getting your period? For the females in the room, how about a beard and deep voice or a receding hairline? Random erections?

Can you see how this could be misery-inducing to a trans teenager? Combined with the mood swings caused by those surges of hormones, it can cause a lot of severe depression and suicidal behavior. The risks of puberty blockers are a lot lower.


Thank you.

Ziggurat 28th February 2019 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by This is The End (Post 12617990)
Oh give me a break. "cannot know what the changes caused by puberty are like until they experience it"... cannot huh? Get the **** out of here with that ****.

That would be like saying I have no idea what Africa is like because I have never been there.

These are not equivalent problems. Puberty doesn't just change your body, it changes your brain. You aren't just responding to some external change, there's an internal change as well. You aren't the same you after the process.

Roboramma 28th February 2019 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12617803)
Because it's pretty god damn consequential, particularly in regards to sex and sexuality. Hormones change both your body and your brain. The fact that you don't feel like you fit in your prepubescent body doesn't mean you will feel like you don't fit in your postpubescent body.

I should really try to find the figures, but as I understand most people who consider themselves transgender at a young age turn out not to be by the time they are 25.

deadrose 28th February 2019 07:29 PM

Ditto pregnancy. It leaves permanent changes on brain and body, including having a population of your child's cells in your body. It also has a higher maternal fatality rate than birth control or elective abortion.

Lambchops 28th February 2019 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12617926)
Quite and interesting read on Puberty blocking

https://thenationalpulse.com/politic...nder-children/

Lol, obviously no agenda here.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-national-pulse/

Roboramma 28th February 2019 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadrose (Post 12618219)
Ditto pregnancy. It leaves permanent changes on brain and body, including having a population of your child's cells in your body. It also has a higher maternal fatality rate than birth control or elective abortion.

Sure. So, what do you think that says about pregnancy? That one can't know before going through it how one will feel about it after? I think that makes sense.

What insight do you think this offers to the subject under discussion?

cullennz 28th February 2019 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lambchops (Post 12618238)

Obviously

But then you think the other side aren't?

It quotes actual studies

Feel free to critique them

cullennz 28th February 2019 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadrose (Post 12618219)
Ditto pregnancy. It leaves permanent changes on brain and body, including having a population of your child's cells in your body. It also has a higher maternal fatality rate than birth control or elective abortion.

The difference being we have about 6 million years of billions of examples of what happens after a woman gets pregnant and has a baby and sweet FA on what happens if someone with delayed puberty for years decides they have changed their mind.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:53 PM.

Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2015-19, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.