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-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

theprestige 5th March 2019 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12622540)
Let everyone compete. Women are practically gone from all level competition. Sports are sexist.

Split into male and female categories based on physical sex. Sports are transphobic.

Split into male and female categories based on identified gender. Trans athletes dominate female competition, practically non-existent from male competition. Sports are now both sexist and transphobic.

Everybody: "We totally understand that you can't please everybody."
Also everybody: "OMG I can't believe I'm not the one you decided to not please."

Can't win, can't lose, can't quit the game.

Quit the game is probably the actual solution.

NewtonTrino 5th March 2019 11:42 AM

Maybe you give up your right to play in mens or womens leagues when you massively mess with your body? I mean that's already the case if you do it with drugs that enhance performance. If there was some kind of "robot muscle" you could have implanted would they allow that in weight lifting?

Ultimately the categories of sport competition are already arbitrary and meant to try and make it fair. Letting people who were born men play as women doesn't seem fair, at least in a lot of cases.

Ziggurat 5th March 2019 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino (Post 12622624)
If there was some kind of "robot muscle" you could have implanted would they allow that in weight lifting?

It doesn't require implants, but certain powerlifting federations allow the use of specialized elastic clothing which provides mechanical assistance to the lifter. Permissible equipment is often specified exactly (as in a list of specific brand and models is approved, nothing else is) in order to keep things fair between competitors.

https://barbend.com/raw-vs-equipped-powerlifting/

cullennz 5th March 2019 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino (Post 12622624)
Maybe you give up your right to play in mens or womens leagues when you massively mess with your body? I mean that's already the case if you do it with drugs that enhance performance. If there was some kind of "robot muscle" you could have implanted would they allow that in weight lifting?

Ultimately the categories of sport competition are already arbitrary and meant to try and make it fair. Letting people who were born men play as women doesn't seem fair, at least in a lot of cases.

^^

This

There are sacrifices all the time, everyone has to make when they make decisions, and while I am perfectly aware that there is already pressures on people who chose to transgender that are large, frankly tough tits (pardon the pun), just add if you do it, you can't play elite womens sport.

Belz... 5th March 2019 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12622661)
^^

This

There are sacrifices all the time, everyone has to make when they make decisions, and while I am perfectly aware that there is already pressures on people who chose to transgender that are large, frankly tough tits (pardon the pun), just add if you do it, you can't play elite womens sport.

Problem is, by some definitions, they are women, so excluding them created some issues.

Course, the issue could be those definitions.

JoeMorgue 5th March 2019 12:22 PM

That's the paradox that no one is addressing.

"You don't count / you belong to a third category" isn't going to work when literally trying to gain... errr access (not the exact word, but close) to an established group is THE ENTIRE POINT.

If trans-women were happy being women some of the time or happy being a new third category or sub-category we WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION.

There's women/men doing it, we want to be involved in that in the way we define ourselves isn't a side issue, it's the issue.

cullennz 5th March 2019 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12622664)
Problem is, by some definitions, they are women, so excluding them created some issues.

Course, the issue could be those definitions.

And to those who think they are women, they just need to comprehend they are performanced enhanced women, just like any other hormone influenced female athlete

luchog 5th March 2019 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12622664)
Problem is, by some definitions, they are women, so excluding them created some issues.

Course, the issue could be those definitions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12622672)
That's the paradox that no one is addressing.

"You don't count / you belong to a third category" isn't going to work when literally trying to gain... errr access (not the exact word, but close) to an established group is THE ENTIRE POINT.

If trans-women were happy being women some of the time or happy being a new third category or sub-category we WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION.


That is not, actually, universal. In point of fact, quite a number of us are perfectly happy to be a "third gender". Of course, most of us also have no interest whatsoever in competitive sports, particularly on a professional level.

Belz... 5th March 2019 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622703)
That is not, actually, universal. In point of fact, quite a number of us are perfectly happy to be a "third gender".

Not sure it'd have the numbers for healthy competitions, mind you.

luchog 5th March 2019 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12622706)
Not sure it'd have the numbers for healthy competitions, mind you.


Which is something I really don't give a rat's about, personally. But I don't see why skill classes can't be used, the way that they already are for some sports.

Belz... 5th March 2019 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622709)
Which is something I really don't give a rat's about, personally.

Nor I, but obviously a number of people care. Smaller categories make it harder to get some really good crop.

Quote:

But I don't see why skill classes can't be used, the way that they already are for some sports.
As stated numerous times before, because women would consistently rank lower than men. The entire reason why they have their own categories is to avoid that.

JoeMorgue 5th March 2019 01:08 PM

At a certain point this is gonna turn into me being the Universal Champion of the 1st Annual Male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Chihuahua named Martini Games.

Ziggurat 5th March 2019 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12622727)
At a certain point this is gonna turn into me being the Universal Champion of the 1st Annual Male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Chihuahua named Martini Games.

Would you let the Male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Chihuahua named Gimlet compete? Could he rename his dog, or would the dog's prior name still give him an unfair competitive advantage?

cullennz 5th March 2019 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12622749)
Would you let the Male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Chihuahua named Gimlet compete? Could he rename his dog, or would the dog's prior name still give him an unfair competitive advantage?

A better comparison would be would you let a male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Mastiff/Rottweiler cross that now self identifies as a Chihuahua named Martini compete.

The Atheist 5th March 2019 03:38 PM

Sounds great. I'll make sure I bring my emotional support flamethrower when I go along to watch.

luchog 5th March 2019 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12622724)
As stated numerous times before, because women would consistently rank lower than men. The entire reason why they have their own categories is to avoid that.


That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings. That's why boxing has a welterweight champion alongside a heavyweight champion. Does that mean a welterweight champion is ranked lower than a heavyweight champion, and the category should therefore be avoided?

cullennz 5th March 2019 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622942)
That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings. That's why boxing has a welterweight champion alongside a heavyweight champion. Does that mean a welterweight champion is ranked lower than a heavyweight champion, and the category should therefore be avoided?

Rank lower in performance, I would imagine

Boxing is not a very good comparison as the weight classes are just as much about safety

luchog 5th March 2019 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cullennz (Post 12622944)
Rank lower in performance, I would imagine

Boxing is not a very good comparison as the weight classes are just as much about safety


So are many other weight and skill classes. Although I have a very hard time believing that given the prevalence of traumatic brain injury in the sport.

But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.

theprestige 5th March 2019 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622942)
That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings. That's why boxing has a welterweight champion alongside a heavyweight champion. Does that mean a welterweight champion is ranked lower than a heavyweight champion, and the category should therefore be avoided?

Pound for pound, men outperform women in feats of strength. Co-ed weight classes in boxing would see men dominate boxing in every single weight class, followed by transwomen. Women would be effectively shut out out of the upper and middle levels of professional boxing.

Not that there's much interest in women's professional boxing, I think. But at least there women are testing themselves against other people with the same average strength to weight ratio.

theprestige 5th March 2019 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622956)
But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

Given a male pitcher and a female pitcher of equal skill, the male will on average dominate, because of his greater strength. His fastball will be faster than hers. He'll have greater stamina, which means he'll be able to pitch more innings, which a huge part of the strategic economy of baseball. And as the game goes on, his greater stamina means that as fatigue starts to set in, his pitches will still have more control than hers.

A female pitcher would need to develop above-average skills, just to compete with average male pitchers. And this is true across the board, in any contest where strength or stamina plays a part.

cullennz 5th March 2019 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622956)
So are many other weight and skill classes. Although I have a very hard time believing that given the prevalence of traumatic brain injury in the sport.

But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.

You seem to be under the impression it was just men who decided that they should be separate

angrysoba 5th March 2019 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622942)
That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings. That's why boxing has a welterweight champion alongside a heavyweight champion. Does that mean a welterweight champion is ranked lower than a heavyweight champion, and the category should therefore be avoided?

Thatís really not the same thing. Very skillful lightweight boxers donít box with sluggers in the heavyweight category because they would regularly end up dead. Similarly there could be plenty of skillful women who are separated from boxing men because of the anatomical advantage that men have. If a woman wants to box men, or a 60 kg man wanted to get in the ring with Tyson Fury then my take would be ďhey, itís your funeral!Ē But I think at the very least we need to be skeptical if Tyson Fury decides he is in the early stages of transitioning to female and now wants to box as a woman.

Similarly, in something like powerlifting, a very average man with a bit of training could bench press 100 kgs. In any commercial gym there will be several men capable of lifting that. For women, thatís only really possible for elite women, and some of those compete in non-tested competitions which suggests the use of steroids. There is no way that women can compete to win if those with the advantages of a male anatomy and a modicum of training compete with them.

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-s...bench-press/kg

cullennz 5th March 2019 05:13 PM

Let us have a look at the 400 meters to see if there is a chance of women being competitive with men

2016 Olympics final

Men - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlet...0_metres#Final

Women - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlet..._hurdles#Final

The winner of the womens race is nearly 9 seconds slower than the slowest man

Yeah. That would work

Edit: Mucked up. Wrong link (linked to hurdles)

5 seconds slower than the slowest man


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlet...0_metres#Final

luchog 5th March 2019 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12622982)
Thatís really not the same thing. Very skillful lightweight boxers donít box with sluggers in the heavyweight category because they would regularly end up dead. Similarly there could be plenty of skillful women who are separated from boxing men because of the anatomical advantage that men have. If a woman wants to box men, or a 60 kg man wanted to get in the ring with Tyson Fury then my take would be ďhey, itís your funeral!Ē But I think at the very least we need to be skeptical if Tyson Fury decides he is in the early stages of transitioning to female and now wants to box as a woman.

Similarly, in something like powerlifting, a very average man with a bit of training could bench press 100 kgs. In any commercial gym there will be several men capable of lifting that. For women, thatís only really possible for elite women, and some of those compete in non-tested competitions which suggests the use of steroids. There is no way that women can compete to win if those with the advantages of a male anatomy and a modicum of training compete with them.

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-s...bench-press/kg


I guess some people really are clueless on the concept of "skill and weight classes".

d4m10n 5th March 2019 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12103049)
Assuming you're right, they should just eliminate the segregation of men and women in sports and let the best person man win.

This isn't such as terrible idea, really.

Women's sport is undoubtedly a benefit, but the price is sex segregation and (thus) separate-but-unequal treatment.

I really do enjoy watching women's rugby, but I can probably get by with just the men's league.

angrysoba 5th March 2019 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622956)
But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.

This is so off-base it is unbelievable.

I am more than happy for the male category to be changes to an open class which allows women and transmen to compete. But frankly, the problem with that is that, as John Macenroe said (to howls of outrage), if Serena Williams were to compete in the menís category she would be 400th in the world.

Women are basically excluded from menís categories in order to preserve the value of the womenís category. And that value is what a lot of female athletes are upset about being under threat.

angrysoba 5th March 2019 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622996)
I guess some people really are clueless on the concept of "skill and weight classes".

Clue me in. You first said skill class and then confused it with weight classes. What is a ďskill and weightĒ class? Is this actually a thing?

theprestige 5th March 2019 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622996)
I guess some people really are clueless on the concept of "skill and weight classes".

So explain it. Baseball has skill classes. The highest skilled players make big bucks in the major leagues. The lower skilled players play in the minors. If you had co-ed baseball, men would dominate the majors, because of the strength advantage they have at every skill level.

Pro boxing also has skill classes, in the sense that only the most skilled boxers in each weight class rise to the top of the sport. Put women in the mix, and the sport would still be dominated by men, in every weight class.

What's not to get? If we're missing some important aspect of your proposal, please explain it.

How would skill classes enable competitive co ed boxing at any level of the sport?

ETA: I think part of the problem is that you don't have much clue about how closely strength and skill are related, in tests of physical prowess. Baseball pitchers are a good example of this.

applecorped 5th March 2019 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12623004)
Clue me in. You first said skill class and then confused it with weight classes. What is a ďskill and weightĒ class? Is this actually a thing?

No. No it's not.

theprestige 5th March 2019 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by applecorped (Post 12623019)
No. No it's not.

I don't really see how it would work, or how what it would solve. Maybe luchog will clue us in on whatever key element we're missing.

angrysoba 5th March 2019 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by applecorped (Post 12623019)
No. No it's not.

Nonetheless I would like to hear luchogís explanation. Iím genuinely interested in learning how this conundrum can be solved. I actually teach some women who have a reasonable chance of competing in the Olympics and I genuinely want to know what the future holds for female sports.

I am not interested in trading snark. If I am clueless then I have a chance of learning something and I welcome that.

sadhatter 5th March 2019 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622956)
So are many other weight and skill classes. Although I have a very hard time believing that given the prevalence of traumatic brain injury in the sport.

But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.

If you think the guys have anything to worry about, you don't really understand sport.

Women on the other hand would become second class competitors.

I feel you are trying to paint it as a toxic masculinity issue because it is a debate that you are more comfortable with.

sadhatter 5th March 2019 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba (Post 12623027)
Nonetheless I would like to hear luchogís explanation. Iím genuinely interested in learning how this conundrum can be solved. I actually teach some women who have a reasonable chance of competing in the Olympics and I genuinely want to know what the future holds for female sports.

I am not interested in trading snark. If I am clueless then I have a chance of learning something and I welcome that.

I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.

angrysoba 5th March 2019 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadhatter (Post 12623092)
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.

Is this a thing that actually exists? The only comparable examples I know of are of no help to women at all. They tend to be split between amateur and pro - but they would still be dominated by cis-males. Obviously there are leagues in which teams can get promoted or relegated but again, in say the FA in the UK all the teams are male and probably will remain that way. I can see women getting into sports where there are specializations - coxes in rowing etc... baseball relief pitchers who have some special throw, etc... darts, snooker (oddly enough men seem to dominate these sports too!) Also I know of things like rugby sevens where the best teams play for the cup, the less good ones play for the plate and the worst ones play for spoon - or try to avoid it. Still, even the worst teams would probably be all-male affairs. I know of veterans leagues which use only over-40s but again all male.

I literally canít see a way of women being competitive without their own leagues. So yeah, I agree with luchog about being clueless regarding luchogís fix, despite luchog not giving a ratís arse about sport. I await enlightenment.

Ziggurat 5th March 2019 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622956)
But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.

Minor league baseball survives in no small part because teams act as recruiting pools for the majors. And even in the minors few women could compete. If women have to compete against men, then in almost every sport the best women will be competing against lower tier men, and womenís participation in professional sports becomes just a rare curiosity.

If you think gender equality is important enough to justify that, well, thatís what you value, and thereís no point in arguing about it. But thatís what is at stake.

Archie Gemmill Goal 6th March 2019 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadhatter (Post 12623092)
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.

But if biological women are not as good as biological men then 'women's' and 'men's' designations are effectively the same thing.It seems to be just a quirk of our social conditioning that we ended up here where womens and mens elite sports are seen as equivalent despite the gulf in class but you cannot deny that this binary system is excluding trans people and as ideas of gender change there are going to be issues like this that need to be rethought.

I am not clear what the answer is but maybe it is about having classes that better reflect what would actually be going on. Of course, you could just redefine Women's sports as Cis-women's sports. But I imagine a lot of women would object to that too.

And that is what bothers me about a lot of this. Women who want to close off their world to transwomen, deny that they are women and assume bad faith on the part of transwomen - you just want to muscle in on our space so you can beat us up/rape us/molest kids/stop us playing sport/etc etc

cullennz 6th March 2019 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadhatter (Post 12623092)
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.


I am wondering why you seem fixated on boxing which involves elements of actual physical danger.

Straight question

Do you think Trans men should be able to get into the ring and fist fight women within the same weight ratio in boxing?

And

Do you think men should be able to get into the ring and fist fight women within the same weight ratio in boxing?

Not difficult questions. Direct. Rather than your pretend ignorance

Edit: apologies re-read.

Those questions are to Luchog

Belz... 6th March 2019 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luchog (Post 12622942)
That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings.

Yes, so women would mostly compete in the lower professional rankings. The top tiers would be dominated, perhaps entirely populated, by men.

Archie Gemmill Goal 6th March 2019 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12623333)
Yes, so women would mostly compete in the lower professional rankings. The top tiers would be dominated, perhaps entirely populated, by men.

this is already the case. We just pretend it isn't by calling them women's and men's sports rather than 'Elite sport' and 'not as good/strong' sports.

Archie Gemmill Goal 6th March 2019 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12623174)
womenís participation in professional sports becomes just a rare curiosity.

I follow you up to here but don't see that this follows. There are plenty of non-elite professional sportspeople at various levels. In fact that is what women's sport currently is and it does quite well in many areas.


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