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-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

theprestige 18th March 2019 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JihadJane (Post 12637125)
Biology trumps feelz.

: v :

Except that biology is feelz*.

---
*Among other things.

Ron_Tomkins 18th March 2019 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12636974)
Sounds fine to me - means there will be no arguments next time you, me, and those three are at a party.

Fair enough.... but where are all these trans parties that you're going to? I guess I'd still like to drop by and check the place out :D

The Atheist 18th March 2019 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins (Post 12637210)
Fair enough.... but where are all these trans parties that you're going to? I guess I'd still like to drop by and check the place out :D

Haha! Let me know when you're headed down under - so to speak - and I'll set one up.

You do have to be a bit careful in NZ especially, because while there are transwomen and fa'afafine who look like the three we were admiring, we have quite a few fa'afafine (traditional Samoan trans) who look like rugby forwards, and in some cases are.

I knew a fa'afafine (not biblically) a few years back who became a golf partner for a year or so. During the day he was a 6' 4" monster who played loose forward for North Harbour. (Like one of your defensive ends, I think)

At night, she was Sheila, trans extraordinaire. I'm pretty sure I was the only person who knew both personae.

I was going to say more, then realised this is not Community!

A classic example of trans in sports, too. If he'd have gone to a full transition she would have been the best woman rugby player in the world and utterly dominated the game.

William Parcher 25th March 2019 03:40 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Plans to class female athletes such as Caster Semenya by their testosterone levels 'contravene human rights' and are 'humiliating', UN warns

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daily Mail
'Unnecessary, humiliating and harmful' plans to classify female athletes by their testosterone levels 'contravene international human rights' says the United Nations Human Rights Council. The plans are a bid by the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) to restrict levels of testosterone in female runners and could even see them competing alongside men.

The debate has been stoked by champion runner, Caster Semenya, whose case is at the forefront of the on-running saga. The two-time Olympic champion and three-time world champion, who has taken testosterone-regulating tablets in the past, said in June that the rule is 'unfair', adding: 'I just want to run naturally, the way I was born.'

Under the IAAF rules, female athletes like Semenya - because of naturally higher testosterone levels - would be forced to compete with men or change their event. The IAAF president, Lord Sebastian Coe, has said the new rules are a bid to 'level the playing field' for all female athletes.

The rules apply to female athletes competing between 400m and a mile, and their levels need to be kept at a certain amount 'for at least six months prior to competing,' report the BBC...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hts-warns.html

The Atheist 25th March 2019 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12645111)
Plans to class female athletes such as Caster Semenya by their testosterone levels 'contravene human rights' and are 'humiliating', UN warns

Not being a sports thread, I'll be slightly more subtle, so I don't leave a long row of asterisks.

That's what would happen if I yet again had to face the prospect of the "rights" of an infinitesimal few overruling the majority.

Roger Ramjets 25th March 2019 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12645111)
Plans to class female athletes such as Caster Semenya by their testosterone levels 'contravene human rights' and are 'humiliating', UN warns

The IAAF president, Lord Sebastian Coe, has said the new rules are a bid to 'level the playing field' for all female athletes.

If 'leveling the playing field' means the contestants must all have equal innate abilities, why stop at testosterone? Longer legs, more muscle, less fat? You're out! More focused, better judgement, greater willpower? disqualified! (personality is >50% genetic). Accepting athletes who just happen to have good genes is totally unfair to all the other women who don't.

Or is there some other reason for singling out testosterone levels from all the other biological differences between contestants? Could it be 'because they're not really women'? No wonder the UN calls it 'humiliating'.

theprestige 25th March 2019 05:24 PM

Caster Semenya seems like an edge case that has no relevance to this discussion.

Roger Ramjets 25th March 2019 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12645145)
Not being a sports thread, I'll be slightly more subtle, so I don't leave a long row of asterisks.

That's what would happen if I yet again had to face the prospect of the "rights" of an infinitesimal few overruling the majority.

I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.

The Atheist 25th March 2019 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12645217)
Caster Semenya seems like an edge case that has no relevance to this discussion.

I disagree.

The LGBTQIA++FWZ36 group includes them in the non-binary category, and they have more in common with transgender than with biological males & females.

And take a look at Semenya - that's a dude masquerading as a woman. She has male testosterone levels, which clearly means she has male genitalia, most likely internally. I'd be betting that while she has a vagina-like mechanism, she doesn't have ovaries or a uterus, so that would make her a bloke.

She identifies as female? Fine - be within testosterone limits for women.

sadhatter 25th March 2019 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige (Post 12645217)
Caster Semenya seems like an edge case that has no relevance to this discussion.

That is rich.

If we are discounting edge cases, then the issue is rectified by not letting trans people play.

Try again.

sadhatter 25th March 2019 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 12645235)
I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.

How much of the population do monarchies make up? Nothing wrong with them running the world then.

The minority needs protection but that does not mean the entire ready of the world has to do whatever they say.

That is "tiny guy at the bar" logic. "I'm so fragile you can't fight back without looking like an *******" , problem being there is a difference between looking like an ******* and being one. And in this case appearances can be deceiving.

Ziggurat 25th March 2019 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 12645235)
I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.

Really? Godwinning the thread is the best argument you can make? That's just... sad.

There really is no equivalence here. Participating in any specific sporting league is not a fundamental right. It is not comparable in any way to the right to life. If you think no discrimination is permissible in sports, then be honest and advocate for the abolishment of separate women's sports. If you think some discrimination is permissible, then you have to form a coherent argument for why this specific discrimination is not permissible when others are. And such an argument won't have anything to do with Nazis, because (and I know this might come as a shock to you) this situation doesn't resemble that one in any meaningful way.

mgidm86 25th March 2019 10:23 PM

Ask actual women athletes how they feel about it and let them decide. The end.

Baylor 25th March 2019 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 12645235)
I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.

A Holocaust analogy. Very original and totally appropriate. Never seen that before.

William Parcher 1st May 2019 05:42 AM

Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) rejected the South African's challenge against the IAAF's new rules.

But Cas said it had "serious concerns as to the future practical application" of the regulations.

Olympic 800m champion Semenya, 28, said in response to the ruling that the IAAF "have always targeted me specifically".

"For a decade the IAAF has tried to slow me down, but this has actually made me stronger. The decision of Cas will not hold me back," the statement continued.

"I will once again rise above and continue to inspire young women and athletes in South Africa and around the world."

Previously, she had said that she wanted to "run naturally, the way I was born".

Now she - and other athletes with differences of sexual development (DSD) - must either take medication in order to compete in track events from 400m to the mile, or change to another distance.

Cas found that the rules for athletes with DSD were discriminatory - but that the discrimination was "necessary, reasonable and proportionate" to protect "the integrity of female athletics"...

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/48102479

sadhatter 1st May 2019 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets (Post 12645235)
I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.

The situation is more akin to royals.

At spoke point someone decided a certain group should have more rights than others. Now people are getting angry.

Historically a minority flexing power over the majority ends one way, and it isn't pretty.

But I'm sure this time will be different, so we should continue to tell people 99 per cent of them have to obey the feelings of a fraction of a percent.

Ron_Tomkins 1st May 2019 07:43 AM

Have you seen Joe Rogan interviewing Adam Conover on the subject? It's amazing how Adam shot himself in the foot on this one. Everyone's calling this interview "Adam Ruins his Credibility"

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Darat 1st May 2019 10:59 AM

I really disagree with this decision, they are saying that she must take very powerful drugs to compete. Are they happy to pay for her medical bills from any side effects of these powerful drugs? By the way with her this decision is not about trans women, it is about women who have higher than average for women testosterone levels in their blood. I do hope they will enforce this consistently, so we shall see taller than average men and shorter than average men not being allowed to compete in races unless their height is adjusted to be the average for men. Can't have people using their natural biological gifts to unfair advantage.

The Atheist 1st May 2019 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Parcher (Post 12681632)
Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.

Finally, the sport court makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12681941)
Can't have people using their natural biological gifts to unfair advantage.

Nope, it isn't that at all.

The LGBTQIAFWZP3+*^Z group has been crying for years about genders & non-binary genders, demanding that the intersex group not be classed as either male or female, but a group on their own.

Now, that's the legal position, which should suit Semenya fine, "they" is not a woman and has never been one.

They can either compete against other intersex people - which includes all 3 medallists at the last Olympic Women's 800m - or they can take drugs to fit the profile allowed for women.

Finally the insanity of making rules for the one rather than the many, has prevailed.

Semenya is, of course, quite welcome to compete against blokes without needing to take drugs.

The alternative to the decision would be allowing women to take testosterone to get up to Semeya's level.

Crawtator 1st May 2019 12:44 PM

Quick question: has there been any studies done which explore the consequences of other biological "advantages" (i.e., height, weight, limb length, etc.) in comparison with testosterone levels? And more specifically, is this the reason that this governing body made this decision for these races only (specifically between 400m and the mile)?

This is not a loaded question. I really don't know how to feel about this. If I remember her case prior to this coming up, she took sex-testing which was never really disclosed but was hinted at showing intersex characteristics. I don't want women competing with men for many of the reasons stated previously, but this may be a fringe case that, when making decisions in the future, I hope we don't hang our hats on.

The privacy concerns for the athlete are important to consider, but I'm not sure where to go from here if we can't test and then reveal the outcome of the test. A suspension of the athlete after sex-testing would likely result in the assumption from the general public and it seems like it would be up to the athlete whether or not they wanted to release the information to refute the governing body and/or protect their public persona. In other words, would Semenya be better off releasing the full records showing she is in fact a female with just higher than average testosterone or continuing the path she has taken? How would members here feel about this?

The Atheist 1st May 2019 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawtator (Post 12682019)
And more specifically, is this the reason that this governing body made this decision for these races only (specifically between 400m and the mile)?

I can only presume that's correct, but I was surprised at the ruling. I would have thought sprinting was where the testosterone is most useful.

Worked for Ben Johnson.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawtator (Post 12682019)
I don't want women competing with men for many of the reasons stated previously, but this may be a fringe case that, when making decisions in the future, I hope we don't hang our hats on.

Given that both other medallists in the 800m at Rio were also intersex, I don't see it as that far on the fringe. That extra pair of nuts that other women don't have seems to give a special advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawtator (Post 12682019)
The privacy concerns for the athlete are important to consider, but I'm not sure where to go from here if we can't test and then reveal the outcome of the test.

That's why testosterone levels are the ideal base to work from. It stops drug cheats, it stops the Semenyas, and it makes bloody sure former blokes aren't carrying testosterone as well as the muscle mass.

To me, that's the only downside of the move - it will mean people who used to be blokes, notably Lauren Hubbard - will be able to participate in women's events because their levels are low enough, while not removing the advantages of having a larger, male, body to start with.

Darat 1st May 2019 04:35 PM

Nope. She is a woman, they even forced a test on her and guess what they didn't say she wasn't a woman. What they found is that she is a woman with a higher than average amount of testosterone, just like many other athletes have a biological advantage in say percentage of different types of muscles. And again this has nothing to do with trans people competing, this is about women with higher than average levels of testosterone having to use powerful and quite dangerous drugs if they want to compete against fellow women. At the top end of sport we are not talking about average people, we are talking about a miniscule sliver of people with often a "natural" biological advantage, what they have decided is that they are fine with all these other biological advantages a top athlete may have but not this particular one. It is also a perverse decision for an organisation that says it wants no drugs in the sport.

Meadmaker 1st May 2019 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12682202)
Nope. She is a woman, they even forced a test on her and guess what they didn't say she wasn't a woman. What they found is that she is a woman with a higher than average amount of testosterone, just like many other athletes have a biological advantage in say percentage of different types of muscles. And again this has nothing to do with trans people competing, this is about women with higher than average levels of testosterone having to use powerful and quite dangerous drugs if they want to compete against fellow women. At the top end of sport we are not talking about average people, we are talking about a miniscule sliver of people with often a "natural" biological advantage, what they have decided is that they are fine with all these other biological advantages a top athlete may have but not this particular one. It is also a perverse decision for an organisation that says it wants no drugs in the sport.


I must agree completely.

I'm most definitely against allowing males to compete as females just because they feel like females, or identify as females, or whatever, but as I understand things, Caster Semenya is a woman who has abnormally high testosterone levels. Well? So what?

I've also heard that she is "really" intersexed, as opposed to female, and my opinion on that is she's close enough. I mean, she has enough issues to deal with due to her sexual makeup, so, do we really want to say it is "unfair" to use her natural characteristics in an area where they actually work in her favor?

No one should be forced to take drugs in order to be eligible to compete.

d4m10n 1st May 2019 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 12682220)
I'm most definitely against allowing males to compete as females just because they feel like females, or identify as females, or whatever, but as I understand things, Castor Semenya is a woman who has abnormally high testosterone levels.

What definition are you using here?

ETA: Not being snarky, it's my understanding that intersex disorders tend to blur the seemingly clear lines between the two sexes.

Meadmaker 1st May 2019 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12682222)
What definition are you using here?

The definition I'm using is the one that a teenage boy would use. Can I **** it?

If the answer is yes, and not just because someone surgically altered her to make it sort of work, she's a woman.

In very exceptional cases, if someone insists they are not the sex that they appear to be, based on conventional wisdom, I'm willing to listen to arguments to the contrary, but only if they are based in biology, not psychology.



(It always seems so awkward to actually write out the naughty word knowing the autocensor will take care of it, and that that's the preferred method of dealing with naughty words.)

ETA: (After seeing your ETA). Yes, I know that intersexed characteristics make for some interesting challenges. My general thought on the subject is that if the characteristics are so blurred that it's not realistically possible to decide based on a scientific test, then the person should be able to choose. They already have issues that most of us don't have to deal with. I'll let them pick this one.

d4m10n 1st May 2019 05:18 PM

I'm afraid that doesn't clear it up.

Are you going off genitals, genes, gametes?

The Atheist 1st May 2019 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12682202)
Nope. She is a woman, they even forced a test on her and guess what they didn't say she wasn't a woman

Guess what else? They didn't say Semenya was a woman, either.

Semenya is intersex. Neither one nor t'other.

d4m10n 1st May 2019 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12682228)
Semenya is intersex. Neither one nor t'other.

Quite a complication if you're tryna create a men's/women's sport dichotomy.

Meadmaker 1st May 2019 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12682227)
I'm afraid that doesn't clear it up.

Are you going off genitals, genes, gametes?

Sure it does. The answer is genitals. I can't have sex with genes or gametes.


And.....that doesn't answer every single case. That's why there was the rest of the post, about making other decisions based on biology, but if you have the genitals of one sex, you ought to be allowed to call yourself that sex, regardless of anything else. If you have genitals of one sex, and want to be called the other sex, now we have to debate, discuss, and make judgement calls.

d4m10n 1st May 2019 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 12682239)
Sure it does. The answer is genitals.

You're in favor of genital testing in high level sport?

Belz... 1st May 2019 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12682202)
Nope. She is a woman, they even forced a test on her and guess what they didn't say she wasn't a woman. What they found is that she is a woman with a higher than average amount of testosterone, just like many other athletes have a biological advantage in say percentage of different types of muscles. And again this has nothing to do with trans people competing, this is about women with higher than average levels of testosterone having to use powerful and quite dangerous drugs if they want to compete against fellow women. At the top end of sport we are not talking about average people, we are talking about a miniscule sliver of people with often a "natural" biological advantage, what they have decided is that they are fine with all these other biological advantages a top athlete may have but not this particular one. It is also a perverse decision for an organisation that says it wants no drugs in the sport.

The solution clearly is a single category. Let everyone compete for the same prize. Of course, we all know where that leads.

If you want categories, you have to find a way to make it fair.

Darat 1st May 2019 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12682228)
Guess what else? They didn't say Semenya was a woman, either.



Semenya is intersex. Neither one nor t'other.

You would need access to information that is not available to be able to say that.
And of course they allowed her to continue to compete in women only events. So the evidence we have is very much on the side that she is a woman.

Darat 1st May 2019 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12682270)
The solution clearly is a single category. Let everyone compete for the same prize. Of course, we all know where that leads.

If you want categories, you have to find a way to make it fair.

What's wrong with the current categories? Men compete against men and women against women that seems to be how sport is generally played.

Meadmaker 1st May 2019 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12682243)
You're in favor of genital testing in high level sport?

Sometimes, there are questions that are just straw men waiting to happen.

What I mean by that is that if I say yes, sure as shootin' some idiot will say that Meadmaker wants inspectors standing trackside to grope every competitor just to make sure they're in the right race. Or they'll say something equally stupid.

But in the end.....yes.

And someone else can draft the exact regulations that determine exactly who has to be verified, and when.


What I'm really saying is that if you have a woman's body, and by that I mean a woman's genitals, you should be able to compete as a woman. And of course you can't take drugs to make you more mannish, and …someone else can go into all the fine print to cover every single edge case. From what I understand, if you were in a room with Caster Semenya naked, you would say, "Wow. If she weren't naked, I would think she was a guy." And she didn't take any chemicals to make her the way she is. Let her compete with her natural body.

The Atheist 1st May 2019 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12682232)
Quite a complication if you're tryna create a men's/women's sport dichotomy.

Not at all. They can start their own league, or fit within the confines of women's events as they now stand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darat (Post 12682288)
You would need access to information that is not available to be able to say that.
And of course they allowed her to continue to compete in women only events. So the evidence we have is very much on the side that she is a woman.

Nonsense.

Laurel Hubbard is competing in women's events and she is not a woman.

That's the whole point of the thread. Trans women - and intersex people - are not women. They're trans women or intersex. There's nothing wrong or bad about that - just like us hetero cisgender male types, they're not women. It's what Germaine Greer keeps getting labeled TERF for - nobody's allowed to say that any more, and I believe calling a trans woman a man is actually classed as illegal hate speech in England.

I know that woman was arrested for more than just calling the other a man, but the judgement is telling:

Quote:

Judge Jason Coppel QC issued an interim injunction that bans her from posting any personal information about Hayden on social media, "referencing her as a man" or linking her to her "former male identity".
We can therefore be assured that if the arrested woman does it again, she will be arrested for contempt of court - and put in the cells immediately, for stating a biologically correct statement. The other woman still has 100% male genes and is a man from any factual perspective. Plenty of blokes had their nuts shot off or landmined away and it doesn't make them women.

However, I'm happy for them to assume any gender or pronoun they wish, but they are still not women. Just as you can't make a midget tall, you can't make a bloke a woman. She might look like one - hell, she might be better looking than a lot of women, she might have sex like a woman and be physically indistinguishable from a woman, but she doesn't have a uterus or female genes and is not a woman.

It grinds my gears that women, who as a species, are still fighting for equality in 2019, are supposed to roll over that now they're almost gaining parity, because a load of people who used to be blokes want in.

qayak 1st May 2019 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12682228)
Guess what else? They didn't say Semenya was a woman, either.

Semenya is intersex. Neither one nor t'other.

Notice how the choice is always to compete in the category where you have a huge advantage and are assured victory and not in the category where you actually have to work your ass off to be competitive?

I wonder when we will see a case where an intersex person is in court arguing to be allowed to play against men? After all, they have a mix of both sexes, it seems 50% of the cases should be them wanting to break into male sports.

Skeptic Tank 1st May 2019 11:30 PM

Wokest take of all: abolish all female sports, they should be having babies.

The Atheist 1st May 2019 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qayak (Post 12682371)
Notice how the choice is always to compete in the category where you have a huge advantage and are assured victory and not in the category where you actually have to work your ass off to be competitive?

Even better, there seems to be a solid trend of trans athletes being former male athletes who didn't quite make the grade in male competition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank (Post 12682379)
Wokest take of all: abolish all female sports, they should be having babies.

Much better plan!

In the immortal advice given to Jake the Muss' wife: "Keep your legs open and your mouth shut, girl."

Mumbles 2nd May 2019 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qayak (Post 12682371)
Notice how the choice is always to compete in the category where you have a huge advantage and are assured victory and not in the category where you actually have to work your ass off to be competitive?

I wonder when we will see a case where an intersex person is in court arguing to be allowed to play against men? After all, they have a mix of both sexes, it seems 50% of the cases should be them wanting to break into male sports.

Given the complete lack of evidence that she is anything other than a cisgendered woman with unusual testosterone levels, all of this seems to be just stuff you made up. She still likely busts her behind training, keeps a strict diet, etc. same as her competitors.

Are their people who just break the M/F dichotomy outright - such that different "tests" will give entirely different results that may or may not even fit into the dichotomy ("This person has male genitalia, but XX chrososomes. This person has XXY chromosomes, and this third person has two fully functioning sets of reproductive organs.")? Yep. These cases are rather rare, though, while as far as I could find, high testosterone levels were found in roughly 14% of elite women athletes tested (and *low* testosterone levels in roughly 17% of elite male athletes tested).

The Atheist 2nd May 2019 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbles (Post 12682410)
Given the complete lack of evidence that she is anything other than a cisgendered woman with unusual testosterone levels...

Yeah, right.

Do you have eyes, maybe?

I'm happy to consider the evidence of Semenya's appearance: 1, 2, 3.

That might well be circumstantial, but a much better guide is the gender test that was undertaken. If Semenya was a natural female, it would have been logical to say so, and it wasn't said. Why would you not remove speculation if you could?

I don't know how reliable the Telegraph is, but they claim she has no female organs but does have testes, presumably leaked from her tests. She is basically a bloke with a vagina-like mechanism, and no cervix or uterus.

Semenya is intersex.

No shame in that, and quite unlucky for her, but the rules have been changed and the enormous majority of sport fans and cisgender female athletes are delighted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumbles (Post 12682410)
Are their people who just break the M/F dichotomy outright ...

Which is why testosterone levels are ideal. No need to bother with asking questions about chromosomes or genitalia.

And let's be honest about Semenya's testosterone levels - they're not "high", they're triple the expected high level for women, putting her as a low outlier for men.


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