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-   -   Trans Women are not Women (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325369)

Ziggurat 17th May 2019 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698499)
If hospitals can't cope with trans people and it causes trans people real harm then, and work with me on this one because I know you are capable of reasoned thought.... THAT'S NOT THE TRANSPEOPLE WHO ARE TO BLAME, THAT'S THE HOSPITAL'S FAULT!!!

If the reason for failure is because of policies created by trans people, then no, trans people do share some blame. The fiction that a female can become a male is a dangerous one in a medical setting, but that is exactly what trans activists have pushed people into accepting.

Puppycow 17th May 2019 05:19 AM

Some in the trans community are upset by Snapchat's new gender swap filter.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mashabl...wap-filter.amp

You can see what it looks like here if you don't want to download the app yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3Zn5xhNwuA

Joe Random 17th May 2019 05:39 AM

A question I've asked before, here and in meatspace : if you can have a man who is pregnant or a woman with a fully functional penis, what information is carried by the words 'man' and 'woman'? What utility do they have?

Last time this came up was about a year ago in the 'man gives birth' thread. The person in the article birthed a child, said they were a man. What information is carried by the term 'man' in that case, and (a question for the person in the article not the posters here) what precisely would have to be/feel different for them to say they were a woman?

Setting aside for the moment all considerations of bathrooms or athletic teams or the like : in those extreme cases where someone is pretty much fully biologically one sex, what are the precise differences which make them say they're the opposite gender? "Yes, I'm biologically a male, but I identify as a woman. Now, if <x> were different, then I'd be a man.".

None of this is meant as a judgement, a dig a motivations, or anything to do with morality. In these edge cases I'm honestly failing to see what information is being conveyed by 'man' or 'woman'.

JoeMorgue 17th May 2019 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Random (Post 12698637)
A question I've asked before, here and in meatspace : if you can have a man who is pregnant or a woman with a fully functional penis, what information is carried by the words 'man' and 'woman'? What utility do they have?

I've been screaming that question into the void ever since the trans movement really came into the broad public discourse. I've gotten nothing even close to something that could be mistaken for something that could even be pretending to be an attempt at an answer.

Joe Random 17th May 2019 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12698638)
I've been screaming that question into the void ever since the trans movement really came into the broad public discourse. I've gotten nothing even close to something that could be mistaken for something that could even be pretending to be an attempt at an answer.


The most detailed answer I was ever given actually came from a woman (cis-) who I think was pretty much just guessing and trying to make sense of it herself. What it boiled down to were essentially preferences and interests. When I was growing up we'd have used the word 'tomboy' (with no insult intended) not 'transman'. You're not a boy, you're a girl who hates frilly dresses, wants to play on the football team, and traded in that Ez-Bake oven she got for her birthday for a Creepy Crawler Thingmaker. And that's wonderful and cool, we support you. Just use the right word to describe it.

So I can't imagine that trans* is actually like the seeming guesses my friend above was making, because it's not like we needed new terms to describe some new (or even newly accepted) phenomena.

I mean, I'm heterosexual. I say this because I'm sexually attracted to women and the idea of being with another man in a sexual setting is very off-putting to me. Now, if I were to wake up tomorrow and suddenly be turned on by men as well, I'd say I was bi, or if I was grossed out at the idea of being in bed with a woman but men really did it for me I'd call myself homosexual. The terms used convey information beyond something circular. I honestly struggle to see what non-circular information "I identify as ..." conveys.

d4m10n 17th May 2019 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JihadJane (Post 12698526)
What has gender got to do with genitals?

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22b...ith+one+sex%22

Archie Gemmill Goal 17th May 2019 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 12698560)
I decided to give up some of the pseudointellectual crap.

Ah, so the reasoned debate wasn't working for you and you decided insults are the way to go?

Quote:

That person in the article is a woman.
Funny that the medical profession struggled with any of this. Its a pity they didn't have your expertise to help them.

Quote:

Her baby is dead.
His baby is dead indeed. You glad?

Archie Gemmill Goal 17th May 2019 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat (Post 12698575)
If the reason for failure is ...

And, it seems appropriate to use the old Scots proverb here.... "if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle".

Archie Gemmill Goal 17th May 2019 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 12698638)
I've been screaming that question into the void ever since the trans movement really came into the broad public discourse. I've gotten nothing even close to something that could be mistaken for something that could even be pretending to be an attempt at an answer.

Rather than screaming into the void maybe take a moment to reflect that the good news is that you probably don't have gender dysphoria then?

There are a whole host of things that I don't understand fully and don't really 'get' but I am willing to accept that they are real things, and that other people indeed may have knowledge, experiences and emotions that I do not share.

JoeMorgue 17th May 2019 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698682)
Rather than screaming into the void maybe take a moment to reflect that the good news is that you probably don't have gender dysphoria then?

There are a whole host of things that I don't understand fully and don't really 'get' but I am willing to accept that they are real things, and that other people indeed may have knowledge, experiences and emotions that I do not share.

If by "get" you mean treat with the same basic level of human respect and dignity as everyone else, yes.

If by "get" you mean "literally perceive reality the way I do or pretend to do so, up to and including acknowledging a distinction without difference while not being allowed to discuss the difference" then no.

d4m10n 17th May 2019 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Random (Post 12698637)
...if you can have a man who is pregnant or a woman with a fully functional penis, what information is carried by the words 'man' and 'woman'? What utility do they have?

For one thing, it tells people where to shop for gender-appropriate attire.

https://twitter.com/BlueBallSkeptic/...87889960841217

I can probably think of other gender-specific situations that don't directly involve genitals and such.

IsThisTheLife 17th May 2019 07:17 AM

Quote:

...if you can have a man who is pregnant or a woman with a fully functional penis, what information is carried by the words 'man' and 'woman'? What utility do they have?
Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 12698688)
For one thing, it tells people where to shop for gender-appropriate attire.

https://twitter.com/BlueBallSkeptic/...87889960841217

I can probably think of other gender-specific situations that don't directly involve genitals and such.

"Gender-appropriate"??? Perhaps you mean gender-specific? Having specific utility to one sex or other? Trousers have flys to accomodate the penis, allow men to to urinate, a skirt does the same for women. Y-fronts vs knickers. Bras?

You're just confirming that to you "gender stereotypes" and even simple definitions exist or don't, whenever it suits you to try and win a point (in your mind).

Stout 17th May 2019 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Random (Post 12698637)
A question I've asked before, here and in meatspace : if you can have a man who is pregnant or a woman with a fully functional penis, what information is carried by the words 'man' and 'woman'? What utility do they have?

I see the problem, you're overthinking the whole issue.

Best not to do that lest you find yourself asking questions like....If gender is a social construct, then why be trans ?

Why not just be a girly guy or a mannish chick ?

d4m10n 17th May 2019 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12698713)
"Gender-appropriate"??? Perhaps you mean gender-specific? Having specific utility to one sex or other? Trousers have flys to accomodate the penis, allow men to to urinate, a skirt does the same for women. Y-fronts vs knickers. Bras?

Never been to Scotland, eh?

...but seriously why does it matter to you if a bloke wants to wear a skirt? Or a bra?

IsThisTheLife 17th May 2019 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 12698721)
I see the problem, you're overthinking the whole issue.

Best not to do that lest you find yourself asking questions like....If gender is a social construct, then why be trans ?

Why not just be a girly guy or a mannish chick ?

The funny thing is that many activist "trans women" are anything but 'girly' - they act exactly like male bullies;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgQy70_LPS4

JoeMorgue 17th May 2019 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 12698721)
I see the problem, you're overthinking the whole issue.

Best not to do that lest you find yourself asking questions like....If gender is a social construct, then why be trans ?

Why not just be a girly guy or a mannish chick ?

That's exactly the questions I've been asking and I haven't gotten answer beyond "You're being a transphobe!" or progressivism's standard excuse at pointing at some "Official Victim Ranking Chart" only they can see and grunting.

Joe Random 17th May 2019 07:55 AM

Well clothing might be an issue still, but I've found a handy flow chart to determine the gender-appropriateness of toys :


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ecb566d0cc.jpg

Meadmaker 17th May 2019 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698671)
Ah, so the reasoned debate wasn't working for you and you decided insults are the way to go?

It is impossible to have a reasoned debate about pregnant men. Any 12 year old can explain why, but since you went to college you might not understand the explanation. If that is the case, then the Joes have done a good job of explaining.

Lithrael 17th May 2019 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stout (Post 12698721)
If gender is a social construct, then why be trans ?

Why not just be a girly guy or a mannish chick ?

I donít know why you say this like itís an apocryphal question. Thereís nothing wrong with it. You only get any pushback from people who answered it already while you werenít looking and are tired of trying to answer it again.

I donít think itís a question with a singular answer either. Gender and presentation seem to mean different things to different people. Plenty of people are indeed happy being mannish chicks, and some trans men still enjoy a lot of typically feminine things. I canít tell you what the point is, but I also canít tell you the point of a thousand other things humans do. It doesnít bother me. Human beings are not actually particularly good at living their lives based on good logical consistent sense. The more I think about it the more I liken gender identity to religion; itís personal, it doesnít actually make any sense but people feel very deeply about it, and hopefully one day weíll all outgrow it.

Stout 17th May 2019 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithrael (Post 12698826)
I donít know why you say this like itís an apocryphal question. Thereís nothing wrong with it. You only get any pushback from people who answered it already while you werenít looking and are tired of trying to answer it again.

I donít think itís a question with a singular answer either. Gender and presentation seem to mean different things to different people. Plenty of people are indeed happy being mannish chicks, and some trans men still enjoy a lot of typically feminine things. I canít tell you what the point is, but I also canít tell you the point of a thousand other things humans do. It doesnít bother me. Human beings are not actually particularly good at living their lives based on good logical consistent sense. The more I think about it the more I liken gender identity to religion; itís personal, it doesnít actually make any sense but people feel very deeply about it, and hopefully one day weíll all outgrow it.

I totally agree with you on the being like religion thing. Personally I don't give a rip who uses what bathroom but there are certainly those who do and for reasons that could be described as illogical.

The question could be reworded to ask...Why is is so important that I, John Q Public accept you for something that you're not ? Why do I need to go whole hog and believe that you're the exact same as someone who was born into their apparent gender ?

I also have to accept that a a cis dude any opinion I have on trans women in sport of accessing bathrooms/changerppms is going to get me labelled as either a transphobe or a misogynist, maybe even a transmisogynist to which I can only say....So what ?

Crawtator 17th May 2019 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698671)
Ah, so the reasoned debate wasn't working for you and you decided insults are the way to go?



Funny that the medical profession struggled with any of this. Its a pity they didn't have your expertise to help them.



His baby is dead indeed. You glad?

It's not funny that the medical profession struggled with this situation. Its ******* tragic. And it's also insulting that you insinuate that he would be glad that the child is dead.

The whole point is that, in certain situations (and in my opinion, especially dealing with the medical profession where life or death may hinge on decisions such as biological sex), correctly identifying yourself by your birth-biological sex is vitally important and should be required. Damned your feelings when so much is at stake: not only your life, but the possibility of protracted lawsuits, misdiagnosis, and simple insurance settlements. There is firm, scientific reasoning for requiring medical documents to show biological sex. Hell, I'd be ok if the forms had some sort of blank after the two checkboxes for sex that would allow for further explanation. But let's not pretend that the sex of the individual is unimportant, as the example shows.

Meadmaker 17th May 2019 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawtator (Post 12698967)
not only your life, but the possibility of protracted lawsuits, misdiagnosis, and simple insurance settlements.

and , let's not forget, someone else's life.

8enotto 17th May 2019 11:36 AM

In any medical situation you must answer honestly to help them help you.

Do you have any allergies to any meds?

I got lucky and do not. They always ask and I appreciate it. My 'stache probably gives away my gender and other small details confirm it for them. I bet they appreciate that after this gal's mess.

She should have mentioned something if none of the folks on staff noted (s)he looked a bit off kilter for a typical male. Never assume anything when a life is on the line. Even if it might offend her feelings.

This is an extreme case and my hope is it stays a rare one. Like never again.

xjx388 17th May 2019 12:53 PM

Itís a weird world when good medical practice becomes: when a patient presents to the ER for abdominal pain, run a pregnancy test even if the patient has all outward appearances of being male. In an office setting, the insurance company wouldnít pay for it because the gender would be set to make on the claim. No big deal because itís pretty cheap...

Now consider the case of a biologically female patient who identifies as male who presents for an annual exam...I cannot put male on their demographic form, obviously, but this might hurt their feelings. I would imagine that transmen still have the same genetic predispositions to certain diseases as females, especially if they havenít fully transitioned. So propensity to Osteoporosis, breast/cervical/ovarian cancer...

Iím just imagining a scenario where a patient really wants to pass as a man, is offended by being called a woman and therefore doesnít get the necessary tests done. I would hope that such a patient would be forthcoming about his true situation so proper medical care can be provided but seeing so much rhetoric, itís hard to be certain.

p0lka 17th May 2019 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawtator (Post 12698967)
It's not funny that the medical profession struggled with this situation. Its ******* tragic. And it's also insulting that you insinuate that he would be glad that the child is dead.

The whole point is that, in certain situations (and in my opinion, especially dealing with the medical profession where life or death may hinge on decisions such as biological sex), correctly identifying yourself by your birth-biological sex is vitally important and should be required. Damned your feelings when so much is at stake: not only your life, but the possibility of protracted lawsuits, misdiagnosis, and simple insurance settlements. There is firm, scientific reasoning for requiring medical documents to show biological sex. Hell, I'd be ok if the forms had some sort of blank after the two checkboxes for sex that would allow for further explanation. But let's not pretend that the sex of the individual is unimportant, as the example shows.

re: the highlighted, they didn't insinuate that he would be glad that the child is dead.
They simply asked a question after the other person brought it up.

Stop being so insulted about imaginary things that your emotions told you to be insulted about, when the reality is that it never happened in the first place.
**** I get annoyed about this pretend insulting/offence stuff.
This is a prime example of that.

re: the stuff i didn't highlight, I have no opinion on that.

The Atheist 17th May 2019 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Random (Post 12698637)
In these edge cases I'm honestly failing to see what information is being conveyed by 'man' or 'woman'.

Well, if you'd ever heard of "edging" you might wish you'd phrased that differently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12698713)
Bras?

Ask a soccer player - it looks like all the professional players wear one.

Maybe they're at the forefront of blurring gender?

Crawtator 17th May 2019 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 12699076)
re: the highlighted, they didn't insinuate that he would be glad that the child is dead.
They simply asked a question after the other person brought it up.

Stop being so insulted about imaginary things that your emotions told you to be insulted about, when the reality is that it never happened in the first place.
**** I get annoyed about this pretend insulting/offence stuff.
This is a prime example of that.

re: the stuff i didn't highlight, I have no opinion on that.

I can't really take this seriously. Stating "His baby is dead indeed. You glad?" is not only off topic, but is so outside the scope of what was being discussed that it implies something despicable. And I would bet my bottom dollar that most of the posters here would agree with my assessment. If not, I would gladly retract.

xjx388 17th May 2019 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 12699076)
re: the highlighted, they didn't insinuate that he would be glad that the child is dead.
They simply asked a question after the other person brought it up.

Stop being so insulted about imaginary things that your emotions told you to be insulted about, when the reality is that it never happened in the first place.
**** I get annoyed about this pretend insulting/offence stuff.
This is a prime example of that.

re: the stuff i didn't highlight, I have no opinion on that.



The ďyou glad?Ē part is the one that indicates, to me anyway, that there was some sinister insinuation (next band name?). An insult disguised as JAQ.

p0lka 17th May 2019 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawtator (Post 12699094)
I can't really take this seriously. Stating "His baby is dead indeed. You glad?" is not only off topic, but is so outside the scope of what was being discussed that it implies something despicable. And I would bet my bottom dollar that most of the posters here would agree with my assessment. If not, I would gladly retract.

This is the actual thing that happened,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 12698560)
I decided to give up some of the pseudointellectual crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698671)
Ah, so the reasoned debate wasn't working for you and you decided insults are the way to go?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 12698560)
That person in the article is a woman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698671)
Funny that the medical profession struggled with any of this. Its a pity they didn't have your expertise to help them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker (Post 12698560)
Her baby is dead.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698671)
His baby is dead indeed. You glad?

Let us not lose ourselves in imaginary insulting things that never happened, lets's stick to the facts.

replying to something that someone else brought up can't be offtopic, unless that someone else bringing it up was being offtopic in the first place.

Joe Random 17th May 2019 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Atheist (Post 12699082)
Well, if you'd ever heard of "edging" you might wish you'd phrased that differently.

<...>


When I was young we used to call that 'tantra'. Today I tend to call it 'three shots of a single malt before "happy adult alone time"'.

Six of one, 45 minutes of another ...

Ziggurat 17th May 2019 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698673)
And, it seems appropriate to use the old Scots proverb here.... "if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle".

That's transphobic.

quadraginta 18th May 2019 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife (Post 12698730)
The funny thing is that many activist "trans women" are anything but 'girly'

<snip>


When you say "many", are you suggesting than some significant percentage of 'activist "trans women"' are bullies?

Would you like to clarify how large a percentage you believe that to be?

Evidence by anecdote isn't really helpful. I'm pretty sure that for every example of a transwoman you can find who is acting like a bully I can find several where they are not.

And without too much difficulty find anti-trans "activists" who are.

Roboramma 18th May 2019 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 12699141)
This is the actual thing that happened,
















Let us not lose ourselves in imaginary insulting things that never happened, lets's stick to the facts.

replying to something that someone else brought up can't be offtopic, unless that someone else bringing it up was being offtopic in the first place.

It seems very clear from Meadmaker's post that he does indeed think the death of that baby is tragic. I'm not clear why you think Archie asked "You glad?" if not to insinuate that Meadmaker was, but maybe you think he was just generally uncertain and was asking out of concern for the answer?

Meadmaker is very clearly not glad that the baby died. No sane person is. That should be assumed by anyone.

He furthermore seems upset that trans ideology contributed to baby's death, in so much as if the mother had simply said "I'm a woman" then the death would have been avoided. Anyone who is more concerned with the baby's life than the feelings of the mother should be able to see this.

It's possible that the death could have been avoided in other ways. If the hospital had some option for "transman" instead of just male or female, and if it's staff were familiar enough with the term, perhaps that could work, but it does increase the complexity of the situation and that inevitably leads to mistakes with people who are overworked, sleep deprived, etc. If we can't even get doctors to wash their hands, anything that makes their job simpler seems like a good idea, including putting biological sex on forms rather than gender.

Stout 19th May 2019 08:02 AM

Meghan Murphy coming to Scotland.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...land-1-4930060

Seems she's a little irked about being silenced by "the left".

Quote:

Laws were being passed and nobody was being consulted about it and there was no argument in the media. You just had to accept it or, as I found out when I started asking questions, you were a right-wing bigot.Ē

The irony in being declared right-wing is not lost on Murphy, who grew up with a Marxist father. She describes herself as a ďsocialist feministĒ but says being labelled right-wing is used by her detractors an ďeasy outĒ from engaging with her arguments. However, her views have been embraced by the farthest reaches of American conservatism, something which she says is ďnot comfortableĒ but at least shows ďthey are willing to engageĒ Ė while those on the left just want to silence her.
Bolding mine.

So is she just coming to this realization now, or finally admitting to it ?

I'm no fan of Murphy, ever since she outed herself as a ageist douchbag

Quote:

Iíd like to walk down the street in a dress without feeling like some 60 year old dude is ******* me with his eyes. Itís gross, not flattering. I donít need the gaze of a 60 year old man to validate my existence. All that gaze does is make me hate 60 year old men.
But it is funny listening to her complain about "young people"

Quote:

When women were fighting for the rights we have now Ė which so many take for granted Ė those women were dismissed as crazy and radical. Young people think of all of that as insignificant. And that is upsetting.Ē
This is kind of like watching a pod of killer whales pigging out of a herd of seals. You don't know who to root for. The Orcas because they're just doing what Orcas do and everybody gotta eat, or the cute fluffy seals. Now exactly who is who in this analogy is up to you and your preferred political affiliations.

Or maybe a better analogy would be watching auto racing. Sure it's sort of interesting watching the cars go around the track but the real excitement, the stuff everybody wants, are the crashes.

sadhatter 19th May 2019 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal (Post 12698682)
Rather than screaming into the void maybe take a moment to reflect that the good news is that you probably don't have gender dysphoria then?

There are a whole host of things that I don't understand fully and don't really 'get' but I am willing to accept that they are real things, and that other people indeed may have knowledge, experiences and emotions that I do not share.

Ghosts
Aliens
Telekinesis
Psychics.

If hypocrisy was still a thing I'd accuse you of it.

sadhatter 19th May 2019 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadraginta (Post 12699657)
When you say "many", are you suggesting than some significant percentage of 'activist "trans women"' are bullies?

Would you like to clarify how large a percentage you believe that to be?

Evidence by anecdote isn't really helpful. I'm pretty sure that for every example of a transwoman you can find who is acting like a bully I can find several where they are not.

And without too much difficulty find anti-trans "activists" who are.

The poster would have been more accurate saying "the loudest trans activists are often bullies".

And the problem is we live in an age where being loud is more important than being right. So those are the people that get rallied behind.

The problem isn't trans folks or conservative folks. The problem is we let the loudest ,most extreme 3 per cent be our mouthpieces because we are more concerned with rustling jimmies than actually coming to a conclusion that is fair or logical.

If this was not the most extreme 3 power cent on both sides being icons we would have a hell of a lot more progress at this point in time. And as a personal opinion the pile of **** with a bad tupee wouldn't be president.

p0lka 19th May 2019 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12700009)
It seems very clear from Meadmaker's post that he does indeed think the death of that baby is tragic.

really? It just looked like a factual statement to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12700009)
I'm not clear why you think Archie asked "You glad?" if not to insinuate that Meadmaker was, but maybe you think he was just generally uncertain and was asking out of concern for the answer?

If Meadmaker brought it up then it is not offtopic to reply to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12700009)
Meadmaker is very clearly not glad that the baby died. No sane person is. That should be assumed by anyone.

I'm not keen on assumptions, I think there's an expression somewhere, that points the problem out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12700009)
He furthermore seems upset that trans ideology contributed to baby's death, in so much as if the mother had simply said "I'm a woman" then the death would have been avoided. Anyone who is more concerned with the baby's life than the feelings of the mother should be able to see this.

It's possible that the death could have been avoided in other ways. If the hospital had some option for "transman" instead of just male or female, and if it's staff were familiar enough with the term, perhaps that could work, but it does increase the complexity of the situation and that inevitably leads to mistakes with people who are overworked, sleep deprived, etc. If we can't even get doctors to wash their hands, anything that makes their job simpler seems like a good idea, including putting biological sex on forms rather than gender.

I'm addressing the accusation of being offtopic when you reply to meadmakers 'her baby is dead' statement.

It's not offtopic, there might be ways to project your own shizzle on to it to seem that way, but it would be incorrect to do so.

Roboramma 19th May 2019 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 12700522)
really? It just looked like a factual statement to me.


If Meadmaker brought it up then it is not offtopic to reply to it.


I'm not keen on assumptions, I think there's an expression somewhere, that points the problem out?



I'm addressing the accusation of being offtopic when you reply to meadmakers 'her baby is dead' statement.

It's not offtopic, there might be ways to project your own shizzle on to it to seem that way, but it would be incorrect to do so.

I didn't claim it was offtopic. Someone else said that "you glad?" was insulting, and you disagreed with that. I was disagreeing with you because the "you glad?" comment was in fact insulting.

Meadmaker 19th May 2019 04:45 PM

Ahh, my favorite ISF sport, arguing about whether or not someone said something. Well, we have a quote, and even a multiquote function. It shouldn't be too hard.

Well, at any rate, I think this was the post that started this sub-discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p0lka (Post 12699076)
re: the highlighted, they didn't insinuate that he would be glad that the child is dead.
They simply asked a question after the other person brought it up.

That post occurred prior to any mention of "off topic".

Now, POlka, if you didn't understand what I meant in my original post about a dead baby, or the subsequent question about whether or not I was glad it is dead, Roboramma got it right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roboramma (Post 12700009)
It seems very clear from Meadmaker's post that he does indeed think the death of that baby is tragic. I'm not clear why you think Archie asked "You glad?" if not to insinuate that Meadmaker was, but maybe you think he was just generally uncertain and was asking out of concern for the answer?

Meadmaker is very clearly not glad that the baby died. No sane person is. That should be assumed by anyone.

He furthermore seems upset that trans ideology contributed to baby's death, in so much as if the mother had simply said "I'm a woman" then the death would have been avoided. Anyone who is more concerned with the baby's life than the feelings of the mother should be able to see this.

It's possible that the death could have been avoided in other ways. If the hospital had some option for "transman" instead of just male or female, and if it's staff were familiar enough with the term, perhaps that could work, but it does increase the complexity of the situation and that inevitably leads to mistakes with people who are overworked, sleep deprived, etc. If we can't even get doctors to wash their hands, anything that makes their job simpler seems like a good idea, including putting biological sex on forms rather than gender.

As for what Archie meant when he asked me if I was glad, I think Archie would have to answer that one. I could speculate, but that often leads to poor results. I will say that I think he had something in mind, but the something he had in mind wasn't reflected very well in what he actually wrote. It happens.

quadraginta 20th May 2019 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadhatter (Post 12700334)
The poster would have been more accurate saying "the loudest trans activists are often bullies".

<snip>


And would have been even more accurate had they said, "some of the loudest trans activists can sometimes be bullies"

But I don't think accuracy was the goal.

Demonization was.


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