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-   -   Biden for President? (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342508)

Bob001 5th March 2020 10:56 AM

Biden for President?
 
Now that Joe Biden is being called the front-runner and "presumptive" Democratic nominee, it's time to ask what kind of candidate he will be against Trump. I want him (or pretty much any other Democrat) to win, and I can't imagine a lot of Democrats choosing Trump over him, but a couple big Biden gaffes could cause some voters to stay home. I don't think this election is a sure thing.

Crossbow 5th March 2020 11:02 AM

Lots of potential presidents make gaffes, and yet they still become the President.

For example, does anyone else recall Volume 1 of "Bushisms" that was published even before he became the President?

Distracted1 5th March 2020 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13011033)
Now that Joe Biden is being called the front-runner and "presumptive" Democratic nominee, it's time to ask what kind of candidate he will be against Trump. I want him (or pretty much any other Democrat) to win, and I can't imagine a lot of Democrats choosing Trump over him, but a couple big Biden gaffes could cause some voters to stay home. I don't think this election is a sure thing.

There can be very little campaigning for Biden. He is fading, and needs to bee seen- not heard.
He needs a very dynamic V.P. (obviously a woman) to do the campaigning.

The campaign needs to consist almost entirely of Trump. Trump is going to have to beat Trump this time, as he would in any sane world.

And, finally, we need to have someone in place to instantly transition to when Biden drops, or becomes incapable of moving on.
Seriously, he seems like he is about five minutes from having out-loud conversations with his dead grandfather. I hope I am wrong, but I really do not trust his health.

Trebuchet 5th March 2020 11:19 AM

I've just filled out my primary ballot for Biden, but reluctantly. He's too old and gaffe-prone. I'd have preferred Warren. Or maybe even Steyer.

mumblethrax 5th March 2020 11:28 AM

The primary process has once again helped us winnow down a broad field to the candidate that absolutely nobody is excited about.

Stacyhs 5th March 2020 11:35 AM

I find Biden's gaffes of far less concern than the things Trump said during his first campaign. Or what he's said since.

Would Biden have been my first choice? No. But I prefer him to Sanders.

Distracted1 5th March 2020 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13011057)
I've just filled out my primary ballot for Biden, but reluctantly. He's too old and gaffe-prone. I'd have preferred Warren. Or maybe even Steyer.

Funny, just about everyone would have preferred Warren to Biden. Yet here we are with %60 of the delegates left to collect and we are calling it a done deal already.

Not happy at all with the selection process this year. (or last time, for that matter)

Cavemonster 5th March 2020 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs (Post 13011078)
I find Biden's gaffes of far less concern than the things Trump said during his first campaign. Or what he's said since.

Would Biden have been my first choice? No. But I prefer him to Sanders.

Republicans are pretty good at falling in line. And any who were put off by Trump's statements during the campaign were offset by the ones super thrilled that he "owned the libs".

Liberals, unfortunately are more prone to a few states of mind that make people stay home from the polls. "But he's not who I wanted!" and "Both sides are really the same corporate BS".

I know Joe says and believes some stupid crap, it won't keep me from voting for him because he would have to rape a puppet on the debate stage to even begin to look worse than Trump.

But I am very worried that we've got young voters, Bernie fans, far left progressives all very ready to stay home and say they can't stomach Biden and happy to use a particular gaffe, revelation, or policy difference as an excuse.

dudalb 5th March 2020 11:55 AM

I am reading a number of Bernie Bros who are saying if Bernie does not get the nomination, they will vote for the Green Party or write in Bernie in November, and they make a great show of doing this on "principal".
IMHO that is an incredibly stupid, moronic "principal"
Unless you want Trump relected, which I suspect a number of the more militant Progs really want;because they think that will "radicalize the masses" and we will finally have our glorous people's revolution...

Stacyhs 5th March 2020 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavemonster (Post 13011090)
Republicans are pretty good at falling in line. And any who were put off by Trump's statements during the campaign were offset by the ones super thrilled that he "owned the libs".

Liberals, unfortunately are more prone to a few states of mind that make people stay home from the polls. "But he's not who I wanted!" and "Both sides are really the same corporate BS".

I know Joe says and believes some stupid crap, it won't keep me from voting for him because he would have to rape a puppet on the debate stage to even begin to look worse than Trump.

But I am very worried that we've got young voters, Bernie fans, far left progressives all very ready to stay home and say they can't stomach Biden and happy to use a particular gaffe, revelation, or policy difference as an excuse.

I completely agree. Those who oppose Trump need to vote for whomever the Dem nominee is. I dislike Sanders a lot but I'd rather have him than Trump.

sir drinks-a-lot 5th March 2020 12:04 PM

Biden is a gaffe machine, that is for sure - and they seem to be coming much more frequently. I suspect most Democrats will overlook them (as they did with his remarks about Obama being the first mainstream black person who was clean, good looking and articulate). I usually find the gaffes amusing, but the current frequency is concerning.


Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13011108)
I am reading a number of Bernie Bros who are saying if Bernie does not get the nomination, they will vote for the Green Party or write in Bernie in November, and they make a great show of doing this on "principal".
IMHO that is an incredibly stupid, moronic "principal"

They probably feel (rightfully) that the 'system' is against their candidate. Big media and the Democrats sure look like they didn't want any part of Sanders.

Oh, and the word you were looking for is "principle" not "principal".

Elagabalus 5th March 2020 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 13011108)
I am reading a number of Bernie Bros who are saying if Bernie does not get the nomination, they will vote for the Green Party or write in Bernie in November, and they make a great show of doing this on "principal".
IMHO that is an incredibly stupid, moronic "principal"
Unless you want Trump relected, which I suspect a number of the more militant Progs really want;because they think that will "radicalize the masses" and we will finally have our glorous people's revolution...

Not to worry. I'll be voting for whomever wins the nomination come November. Trump is still going to win.

Distracted1 5th March 2020 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot (Post 13011122)
Biden is a gaffe machine, that is for sure - and they seem to be coming much more frequently. I suspect most Democrats will overlook them (as they did with his remarks about Obama being the first mainstream black person who was clean, good looking and articulate). I usually find the gaffes amusing, but the current frequency is concerning.




They probably feel (rightfully) that the 'system' is against their candidate. Big media and the Democrats sure look like they didn't want any part of Sanders.

Oh, and the word you were looking for is "principle" not "principal".

I have heard this.
Don't follow though. Seems like "the Democrats" not wanting Sanders- and expressing that pretty clearly with their votes when it became likely that he could get the nomination- is not equal to the "system" being against him. (unless we decide that the Dems who have voted in primaries thus far are actually "the system")

And Journalists reporting on those facts become, I guess, the "big media" that is against him?

Bunch of nonsense.

Stacyhs 5th March 2020 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot (Post 13011122)
Biden is a gaffe machine, that is for sure - and they seem to be coming much more frequently. I suspect most Democrats will overlook them (as they did with his remarks about Obama being the first mainstream black person who was clean, good looking and articulate). I usually find the gaffes amusing, but the current frequency is concerning.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...14fba68159.png

Upchurch 6th March 2020 09:26 AM

I'm disappointed about Warren dropping out, but here we are.

I guess I'm going to be voting for Biden in Missouri's primary on Tuesday. The one thing he's got going for him that Sanders does not, I think, is that it's much more likely that Obama would stump for Biden. I think, or maybe just hope, that will help bring people out to vote and get the Orange Menace out of the White House.

JoeMorgue 6th March 2020 09:29 AM

"Gaffes" is a dumb term, an attempt to equate honest mistakes and slips of the tongue without outright vile maliciousness and intentional factual wrongness.

"LOL sure Trump said all Mexicans were rapists and killers and had to be physically restrained from staring into the sun during an eclipse but silly ole' grandpa Joe said 'Squatternut Bosh' when he meant to say 'Butternut Squash' it's all the same!"

eeyore1954 6th March 2020 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13011052)
There can be very little campaigning for Biden. He is fading, and needs to bee seen- not heard.
He needs a very dynamic V.P. (obviously a woman) to do the campaigning.

The campaign needs to consist almost entirely of Trump. Trump is going to have to beat Trump this time, as he would in any sane world.

And, finally, we need to have someone in place to instantly transition to when Biden drops, or becomes incapable of moving on.
Seriously, he seems like he is about five minutes from having out-loud conversations with his dead grandfather. I hope I am wrong, but I really do not trust his health.

Hillaryís best chance to become president.

Distracted1 6th March 2020 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeyore1954 (Post 13012024)
Hillaryís best chance to become president.

Who was her V.P. candidate again?

Do you think Biden has the same negatives in the States that matter that she had?

eeyore1954 6th March 2020 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13012021)
"Gaffes" is a dumb term, an attempt to equate honest mistakes and slips of the tongue without outright vile maliciousness and intentional factual wrongness.

"LOL sure Trump said all Mexicans were rapists and killers and had to be physically restrained from staring into the sun during an eclipse but silly ole' grandpa Joe said 'Squatternut Bosh' when he meant to say 'Butternut Squash' it's all the same!"

I guess you are like President Trump in that you say things that arenít true. Trump did not say all Mexicans are rapists and killers.

Just for the record I didnít like what he did say at all.

theprestige 6th March 2020 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavemonster (Post 13011090)
Republicans are pretty good at falling in line.

If Republican voters were good at falling in line, we wouldn't have -

- the Tea Party movement

- Donald Trump as the Republican nominee in 2016

- Never-Trumpers defecting to the Democratic party

As far as I can tell, everybody likes to say the other party is more authoritarian or submissive or whatever, but in reality both parties have about the same mix of outlooks and attitudes about party loyalty, among their voters.

eeyore1954 6th March 2020 09:47 AM

In my opinion Biden does more than gaffes. Not malicious things but what could charitably called senior moments. Uncharitably called early signs of dementia.

d4m10n 6th March 2020 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13011033)
Now that Joe Biden is being called the front-runner and "presumptive" Democratic nominee, it's time to ask what kind of candidate he will be against Trump.

I think it's at least two weeks too early to make any presumptions about how the primary process will play out, but bascially Biden just needs to stay on message (preferably on teleprompter) pretty much of the time and constantly remind those of us who volunteered/voted for Obama that he's getting the band back together, in terms of both players and setlists.

Squeegee Beckenheim 6th March 2020 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13012021)
"Gaffes" is a dumb term, an attempt to equate honest mistakes and slips of the tongue without outright vile maliciousness and intentional factual wrongness.

"LOL sure Trump said all Mexicans were rapists and killers and had to be physically restrained from staring into the sun during an eclipse but silly ole' grandpa Joe said 'Squatternut Bosh' when he meant to say 'Butternut Squash' it's all the same!"

Surely the term "gaffe" implies that something is a mistake, and therefore is doing the opposite of what you claim and not equating them with Trump's lies and inflammatory rhetoric?

JoeMorgue 6th March 2020 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim (Post 13012048)
Surely the term "gaffe" implies that something is a mistake, and therefore is doing the opposite of what you claim and not equating them with Trump's lies and inflammatory rhetoric?

On a technical dictionary definition level, yes.

As it is being used political, often not.

ahhell 6th March 2020 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeyore1954 (Post 13012041)
In my opinion Biden does more than gaffes. Not malicious things but what could charitably called senior moments. Uncharitably called early signs of dementia.

Fortunately, Trump shows some of those signs too. It may matter in the primary but it won't matter in the general. This election is going to be all about turn out and who can get the rust belt working stiffs and soccer mom's to vote for them.

I think based on not much that Sanders has a shot at the rust belt. I think also not based on much that Bernie turns off the soccer moms nearly as much as Trump. I am much less certain of that.

I think Biden will be the nominee and I hope the Bernie Bros* don't stay home on account of it. Based on turnout in the primaries, they may not have turned out regardless.

*The enthusiastic youth voters who like Bernie.

Regarding "gaffes" I don't think it generally used to conflate deliberate potentially offensive things like Trump does so often. I've generally heard it applied to the sorts of things Biden and Bush do all the time.

The defense of trump's questionable statements is usually not to call them gaffes but to point out(generally correctly) that what he actually said was fairly incoherent. So, he might have meant X or Y and which one you think it was is usually dependent on what you think of Trump.


The spoiler is a bunch of things that Trump is often claimed to have said that aren't quite what he said even though what he actually said was pretty bad, its not as bad as is often claimed. Read or not. Its not really important but I wrote it all done before I decided it didn't really matter. Point is, Trump sucks, he especially sucks at communicating and using all the best words.
He didn't actually say all Mexicans are criminals and rapist or even that all of them coming to the US weren't, but its not unreasonable to think that's what he meant.
He didn't actually say NAZI's were fine people after Charlottesville. In context, he was talking about 3 groups of people, Nazi's/klansmen, other folks who like confederate statues, and folks protesting the first two groups. No, in context, it was still stupid to say what he did but he pretty clearly didn't mean to say racists were fine people.
He didn't actually say he had grabbed women by the pussy either. He claimed he had kissed them without asking and he could get away with it along with grabbing them by the pussy because he was a celebrity. Boorish and stupid but not an admission of grabbing women by the pussy. He also said he couldn't help himself around beautiful women, then the women he was referring to walked into the room and he clearly restrained himself. So, it was pretty much all empty gross bravado.

Dr. Keith 6th March 2020 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13012056)
On a technical dictionary definition level, yes.

As it is being used political, often not.

The problem there is not in calling Joe's mistakes gaffes, but in calling Trump's racist comments and kissing Putin's ass gaffes. They are not, they are simply a direct reflection of what he is thinking.

The Great Zaganza 6th March 2020 10:17 AM

Joe Biden should emulate Trump's approach to government to make it easier for Undecided to come to his side.

Step 1: pick his son Hunter as VP.

sir drinks-a-lot 6th March 2020 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13012056)
On a technical dictionary definition level, yes.

As it is being used political, often not.

I think it is most often used the same way in political contexts. "Gaffe" has the connotation of an innocent mistake, or at most a revealing slip of the tongue.

Of course, for political purposes simple gaffes are often treated as serious statements by the opposing side. And there can often be legitimate agreement about whether or not a particular statement is a gaffe.

Examples:

Obama's "You can keep your insurance" - Not a gaffe
Obama's "Iíve now been in fifty Ö. seven states" - gaffe

sir drinks-a-lot 6th March 2020 10:20 AM

Biden made some obvious gaffes recently and some comments that may or may not have been gaffes.

What's most relevant I think is the increase in the rate of gaffes and such. He seems to be on a worrying trajectory, especially for someone who may be just about to go through a Presidential election cycle.

ahhell 6th March 2020 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot (Post 13012073)
Biden made some obvious gaffes recently and some comments that may or may not have been gaffes.

What's most relevant I think is the increase in the rate of gaffes and such. He seems to be on a worrying trajectory, especially for someone who may be just about to go through a Presidential election cycle.

Does it really matter though? Is anyone out there, who is considering voting for trump going to care* if Biden maybe a little demented? Is anyone out there who won't vote for Trump going to care if Biden is a little demented?

*I imagine they will pretend to care.

d4m10n 6th March 2020 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot (Post 13012069)
"Gaffe" has the connotation of an innocent mistake, or at most a revealing slip of the tongue.

My favorite sort of political gaffe is when the candidate accidentally reveals how they really see the world. Obama thought many of the people lined up to vote against him were fearfully clinging to guns and religion; Clinton believed many of the people lined up to vote against her were downright deplorable in terms of sexism, racism, etc.

Trebuchet 6th March 2020 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13012080)
My favorite sort of political gaffe is when the candidate accidentally reveals how they really see the world. Obama thought many of the people lined up to vote against him were fearfully clinging to guns and religion; Clinton believed many of the people lined up to vote against her were downright deplorable in terms of sexism, racism, etc.

Were they wrong about that?

Distracted1 6th March 2020 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13012080)
My favorite sort of political gaffe is when the candidate accidentally reveals how they really see the world. Obama thought many of the people lined up to vote against him were fearfully clinging to guns and religion; Clinton believed many of the people lined up to vote against her were downright deplorable in terms of sexism, racism, etc.

Poor kids are as smart as white kids...

d4m10n 6th March 2020 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trebuchet (Post 13012099)
Were they wrong about that?

Nope, those claims were essentially true. Impolitic, perhaps, but not wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distracted1 (Post 13012105)
Poor kids are as smart as white kids...

Also true.

Despite the fact that non-white kids in the U.S. will (on average) grow up with significantly fewer resources and more everyday insecurity than their European American peers, they have just as much raw potential.

Distracted1 6th March 2020 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4m10n (Post 13012119)
Nope, those claims were essentially true. Impolitic, perhaps, but not wrong.



Also true.

Despite the fact that non-white kids in the U.S. will (on average) grow up with significantly fewer resources and more everyday insecurity than their European American peers, they have just as much raw potential.

How well do you think a candidate will do with the lower-income white voter when his gaffe has revealed that he does not believe a white person can be poor?

Suddenly 6th March 2020 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 13012077)
Does it really matter though? Is anyone out there, who is considering voting for trump going to care* if Biden maybe a little demented? Is anyone out there who won't vote for Trump going to care if Biden is a little demented?

*I imagine they will pretend to care.

Close to pretend. There are a group of voters that in the dark recesses of the soul want to vote for Trump but are honestly ashamed of it.

The narrative of Biden being corrupt or demented will be enough for them to create a false equivalence that lets them feel better about voting for Trump.

They will say and could probably pass a lie detector test that this will be what pushed them to Trump, but it was likely going to be something.

(This is what makes the current conventional wisdom about how to beat Trump maddening. The vast majority of these moderate Republicans that "really don't want to vote for Trump" are going to for some reason. Hoping to flip them is eating soup with a fork)

Elagabalus 6th March 2020 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob001 (Post 13011033)
Now that Joe Biden is being called the front-runner and "presumptive" Democratic nominee, it's time to ask what kind of candidate he will be against Trump...


Dull as dishwater.

Distracted1 6th March 2020 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahhell (Post 13012077)
Does it really matter though? Is anyone out there, who is considering voting for trump going to care* if Biden maybe a little demented? Is anyone out there who won't vote for Trump going to care if Biden is a little demented?

*I imagine they will pretend to care.

No, to both, honestly.

Long ago we saw the polls showing Trump losing to a generic Democrat. Eager to leverage that information we are running the closest thing we can find to a "generic Democrat".

OK, I think, by just about everyone.

Distracted1 6th March 2020 11:26 AM

Biden needs to select a V.P. quickly.
I don't think he should even wait until he has the nomination officially secured.
His V.P. is going to have to be where the excitement comes from.

If he does not nominate one specifically, he should at least make the pledge that whomever it is it will be a woman. That, at least, takes a little of the buzz Trump might get with a surprise switch to Nikki Haley (or Tulsi Gabbard) during the run-up.

Squeegee Beckenheim 6th March 2020 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue (Post 13012056)
On a technical dictionary definition level, yes.

As it is being used political, often not.

Can you provide an example?


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