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-   -   Visiting Morocco while being daft, naïve European girls (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334924)

Belz... 22nd February 2019 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610312)
A Scandinavian man believing (or pretending to believe) millions of Muslims are appalled by extremists murdering two Scandinavian girls is religious euphoria.

So your claim is that Muslims in the world are rejoicing at this event?

Thermal 22nd February 2019 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610231)
That beheaded Norwegian girl sure thought it was. And if she had been racist, she'd still be alive.

And here I was thinking this thread might be about being aware of dangers when exploring or something. But no...it is only this...

Gilbert Syndrome 22nd February 2019 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610227)
Nearly every comment on the YouTube video and article have stated that these girls were brainwashed by Western propaganda.

Most people in the comments section of Youtube videos and news articles can barely string a coherent sentence together. I'd put as much stock into their opinions as I would with a random alcoholic who shouts at passing cars.

Belz... 22nd February 2019 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610227)
Nearly every comment on the YouTube video and article have stated that these girls were brainwashed by Western propaganda.

I suddenly understood quite a bit about how you form opinions.

dann 22nd February 2019 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12610309)
Don't Make the Muslims Angry.


Why wouldn't you make the Muslims angry? I thought that was the whole point in your case?

Quote:

Do you reckon these girls understood that a person drawing a cartoon of a long dead guy could result in millions of Muslims across the world regarding them as a valid target for beheading?

No, but you seem to think that there are "millions of Muslims across the world regarding them as a valid target for beheading." I think that the girls probably knew that the Muhammad drawings in Jyllands-Posten served no other purpose than to piss on the religion of a minority group in Denmark. The point wasn't to criticize religion. The point wasn't even to criticize Islam. The point was to profile the newspaper as valiant freedom fighters even when they weren't. It's a little like when some people try to rile up Christians by doing something that they know will offend them, like drawings of the pope being buggered by some of the apparently many pederast priests: It serves no purpose other than upsetting Christians (in this case of the Catholic persuasion). It doesn't really criticize religion or even the Catholic version of Christianity.
I'm not averse to upsetting people who get upset by an argument, but that is not what happened with the Danish Cartoon Controversy. Not at all.

Quote:

If not, why not?

Not even Jyllands-Posten themselves understood what their cartoons would result in! They expected it to be a domestic matter: They would humiliate the Danish Muslims (the number of Muslim readers of Jyllands-Posten was insignificant anyway), and Jyllands-Posten would have demonstrated how valiant it was. They hadn't calculated with the drawings being circulated among Muslims in the rest of the world. And you can bet that they wouldn't dare publish drawings of Jesus driving a tank og flying a bomber. They know who their subscribers are (or were) and they wouldn't dream of offending them.

dann 22nd February 2019 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610305)
Cognitive dissonance is when one's attitude is incongruent with one's behavior.


I knew you wouldn't get it right!

Quote:

I'll give you an example pertinent to this thread.

Imagine someone has negative attitudes about Muslims. (understandable). How would you change her negative attitude to a positive one? You change her behavior. You get her--usually through positive reinforcement--to praise Islam and say how it is "the religion of peace." You reward her for that behavior, use negative reinforcement or punishment if her attitude is not conducive with positive appraisal of Muslims. Because her behavior is incongruent with her attitude, she will experience cognitive dissonance. Her attitudes will then shift with her behavior. She will then have positive attitudes about Muslims and share poorly directed pro-Muslim videos on facebook.

So this is what it looks like when a racist pretends to understand behaviorism and gets it wrong again.

Quote:

To change someone's attitude, you have to change her behavior--not the other way around. And that's where the term "brainwashing" comes from.

Two incongruent thoughts is not the proper definition of "cognitive dissonance." Thinking two incompatible thoughts is normal human cognition.
Now as someone familiar with the term and a native English speaker, please stop.

So Wikipedia gets it wrong, but Baylor sets us straight, ESL as well as native speakers of English! RIiiiiiiight!

Quote:

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort (psychological stress) experienced by a person who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. This discomfort is triggered by a situation in which a person’s belief clashes with new evidence perceived by the person. When confronted with facts that contradict beliefs, ideals, and values, people will find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.Cognitive dissonance
.

baron 22nd February 2019 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12610388)
Why wouldn't you make the Muslims angry? I thought that was the whole point in your case?

You missed the reference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12610388)
No, but you seem to think that there are "millions of Muslims across the world regarding them as a valid target for beheading." I think that the girls probably knew that the Muhammad drawings in Jyllands-Posten served no other purpose than to piss on the religion of a minority group in Denmark. The point wasn't to criticize religion. The point wasn't even to criticize Islam. The point was to profile the newspaper as valiant freedom fighters even when they weren't. It's a little like when some people try to rile up Christians by doing something that they know will offend them, like drawings of the pope being buggered by some of the apparently many pederast priests: It serves no purpose other than upsetting Christians (in this case of the Catholic persuasion). It doesn't really criticize religion or even the Catholic version of Christianity.
I'm not averse to upsetting people who get upset by an argument, but that is not what happened with the Danish Cartoon Controversy. Not at all.

It is. It's your deference to Islam that prevents you from accepting it. If I insult you, will you slice off my head? If I insult something you hold dear would you throw me off a building? No, you likely wouldn't even bust my chops. Yet you apologise for those who are willing to commit mass murder in response to a perceived slight against their religion.

It's good that you yourself make the argument about trying to rile Christians, trying being the key word. What kind of criticism does it take to get Christians to murder a room full of office workers, or to behead a film maker on the streets? You don't know because it can't be done, as evidenced by the huge amount of mockery Christians get on a daily basis without retaliating in any significantly violent way. And I say that as someone who is not a Christian, has no personal association with Christians and who is not religious.

The fact you don't understand why anybody would stoop to drawing a cartoon of Mohammed says a lot. You list numerous reasons why they might do so only to dismiss them, and rightly so because they are absurd. The sole point of doing it is to protect the freedom of expression that is the foundation of all other human rights. This can only be done by speaking out on contentious matters - "Oh it's a lovely day so let's be nice to each other," doesn't really cut it. It staggers me that anybody who considers themselves liberal doesn't comprehend this, so much so I can't see how they are deserving of the title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12610388)
Not even Jyllands-Posten themselves understood what their cartoons would result in!

You're correct. Even they underestimated the savagery inherent in most conservative interpretations of Islam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12610388)
They expected it to be a domestic matter: They would humiliate the Danish Muslims (the number of Muslim readers of Jyllands-Posten was insignificant anyway), and Jyllands-Posten would have demonstrated how valiant it was. They hadn't calculated with the drawings being circulated among Muslims in the rest of the world. And you can bet that they wouldn't dare publish drawings of Jesus driving a tank og flying a bomber. They know who their subscribers are (or were) and they wouldn't dream of offending them.

I'm sure that played a part, but it's irrelevant. Ridicule of Jesus and the Christian God are part of Western culture. Never heard of 'The Life of Brian'? Sure you have, shown in cinemas and on TV across the world with not a single death to its name. But then we have a nobody who posts a silly video mocking Mohammed on YouTube and there are riots in all Muslim majority countries and protests across the West - dozens, hundreds? of people are killed, including the US Ambassador - and what does the West do? Apologise. Oh please forgive us, we're so sorry we made you do this, we must strive to be better people and respect the beliefs of others! Pathetic.

Don't Make the Muslims Angry.

carlitos 22nd February 2019 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610227)
Considering just about every person commenting on the topic thinks the same thing I do about the ignorance of Western women, yes. Nearly every comment on the YouTube video and article have stated that these girls were brainwashed by Western propaganda. You haven't even put forth an argument stating otherwise.

Argumentum ad youtubum-commentariat. I applaud this as a demonstration in faulty logic.

carlitos 22nd February 2019 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12610284)
No, she didn't, and no, she wouldn't. However, they might still have been alive if Jyllands-Posten hadn't posted its stupid Muhammad drawing, which made Danes a target for Muslim extremists.

Shame on you. This is reprehensible, you giving cover to Muslim extremists by blaming the free press. I can't even believe I'm reading this here.



Just to be clear - were you making a joke or being sarcastic here?

baron 22nd February 2019 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 12610444)
Shame on you. This is reprehensible, you giving cover to Muslim extremists by blaming the free press. I can't even believe I'm reading this here.



Just to be clear - were you making a joke or being sarcastic here?

Oh he's completely serious.

Belz... 22nd February 2019 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12610433)
Ridicule of Jesus and the Christian God are part of Western culture.

Recently.

Baylor 22nd February 2019 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12610399)
I knew you wouldn't get it right!

I knew you thought Wikipedia substituted a formal education!

Dude, I know you come from a gullible society, but don't trust Wikipedia for an argument, especially claims hidden behind a paywall.

carlitos 22nd February 2019 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baron (Post 12610448)
Oh he's completely serious.

Yeah, I read the follow-up after I posted that. Bummer.

Baylor 22nd February 2019 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 12610440)
Argumentum ad youtubum-commentariat. I applaud this as a demonstration in faulty logic.

Argumentum ad R.Mackeyum

Come on dude, you know this is a blatant rip off of Ryan. At least cite your source.

Baylor 22nd February 2019 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome (Post 12610351)
Most people in the comments section of Youtube videos and news articles can barely string a coherent sentence together. I'd put as much stock into their opinions as I would with a random alcoholic who shouts at passing cars.

I put less stock in that horrendous video. Even the "not racist" Danish person hasn't tried to defend whatever the hell that thing was. I'm still trying to make sense out of it. It's wonderful when a white man commits a drug crime because everyone expected a Muslim to get busted. What? That seems offensive to both Muslims and white people. The American equivalent would be a commercial where a white man gets busted for robbing a liquor store and it's wonderful that a woman watched it because she thought only black people rob liquor stores. Jaws would be on the floor if a commercial like that aired in America. My only explanation is this is the new religious craze in Scandinavia. If you want to make sense out of that train wreck, I'm all ears.

Baylor 22nd February 2019 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 12610444)
Shame on you. This is reprehensible, you giving cover to Muslim extremists by blaming the free press. I can't even believe I'm reading this here.



Just to be clear - were you making a joke or being sarcastic here?

Yes, he is serious. Seriously, haven't you noticed the jubilation Europeans feel when they exonerate Muslims for their crimes and pin the blame on other whites?

eta: just saw your more recent post.

carlitos 22nd February 2019 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610475)
Argumentum ad R.Mackeyum

Come on dude, you know this is a blatant rip off of Ryan. At least cite your source.

Well, if Ryan Mackey said something like that, sure, he's welcome to credit. I'm sure that would be important to him, getting credit for such an obvious joke.


But here you are, changing the subject for your fallacious non-argument by referencing the 9/11 sub-forum, back when logical fallacies were challenged by really smart posters on the JREF Forum. This would be a good time for you to reflect on that.

Belz... 22nd February 2019 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610501)
Yes, he is serious. Seriously, haven't you noticed the jubilation Europeans feel when they exonerate Muslims for their crimes and pin the blame on other whites?

All of them?

Baylor 22nd February 2019 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 12610520)
Well, if Ryan Mackey said something like that, sure, he's welcome to credit. I'm sure that would be important to him, getting credit for such an obvious joke.


But here you are, changing the subject for your fallacious non-argument by referencing the 9/11 sub-forum, back when logical fallacies were challenged by really smart posters on the JREF Forum. This would be a good time for you to reflect on that.

High quality smart posters like R.Mackey left long ago. This would be a good time for you to reflect on that.

You want to stay on topic? How about discussing that god awful video. If you experience religious euphoria after watching whatever the hell that is, then tell us. I, and seemingly the rest of the world, are disgusted by it and think it's low quality, cheaply produced propaganda and I feel sorry those weak-minded enough to be taken in by it.

kookbreaker 22nd February 2019 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 12610440)
Argumentum ad youtubum-commentariat. I applaud this as a demonstration in faulty logic.

“The commenters on YouTube support me” is the new “The lurkers support me in email”.

carlitos 22nd February 2019 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610529)
High quality smart posters like R.Mackey left long ago. This would be a good time for you to reflect on that.

You want to stay on topic? How about discussing that god awful video. If you experience religious euphoria after watching whatever the hell that is, then tell us. I, and seemingly the rest of the world, are disgusted by it and think it's low quality, cheaply produced propaganda and I feel sorry those weak-minded enough to be taken in by it.

I'm so not weak-minded that I'm not going to watch it at all. So you may enter the weekend by not feeling sorry for me. :thumbsup:

Belz... 22nd February 2019 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kookbreaker (Post 12610554)
“The commenters on YouTube support me” is the new “The lurkers support me in email”.

It's only slightly better than hypothetical neutral audiences.

kookbreaker 22nd February 2019 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12610582)
It's only slightly better than hypothetical neutral audiences.

I’d say it is a step down rather than a step up.

Belz... 22nd February 2019 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kookbreaker (Post 12610607)
I’d say it is a step down rather than a step up.

Well at least some real people write most of those comments.

Hypothetical audiences don't even exist.

applecorped 22nd February 2019 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12610388)
Why wouldn't you make the Muslims angry? I thought that was the whole point in your case?




No, but you seem to think that there are "millions of Muslims across the world regarding them as a valid target for beheading." I think that the girls probably knew that the Muhammad drawings in Jyllands-Posten served no other purpose than to piss on the religion of a minority group in Denmark. The point wasn't to criticize religion. The point wasn't even to criticize Islam. The point was to profile the newspaper as valiant freedom fighters even when they weren't. It's a little like when some people try to rile up Christians by doing something that they know will offend them, like drawings of the pope being buggered by some of the apparently many pederast priests: It serves no purpose other than upsetting Christians (in this case of the Catholic persuasion). It doesn't really criticize religion or even the Catholic version of Christianity.
I'm not averse to upsetting people who get upset by an argument, but that is not what happened with the Danish Cartoon Controversy. Not at all.




Not even Jyllands-Posten themselves understood what their cartoons would result in! They expected it to be a domestic matter: They would humiliate the Danish Muslims (the number of Muslim readers of Jyllands-Posten was insignificant anyway), and Jyllands-Posten would have demonstrated how valiant it was. They hadn't calculated with the drawings being circulated among Muslims in the rest of the world. And you can bet that they wouldn't dare publish drawings of Jesus driving a tank og flying a bomber. They know who their subscribers are (or were) and they wouldn't dream of offending them.

Your Surrender is accepted

dann 22nd February 2019 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 12610471)
Yeah, I read the follow-up after I posted that. Bummer.


Back in the day, i.e. 2005, I explained to the participants of the JREF forum what the Muhammed Cartoon Controversy was actually about. You weren't here so you can be forgiven for not knowing.
Jyllands-Posten, a very reactionary newspaper, ordered and published the cartoons, pretending that it was to defend the 'freedom of the press,' which was never actually threatened by anyone; the point being that Muslims don't want illustrations of Muhammad. Some of the contributions were dutiful illustrations of the idea that Islam was a violent religion: Muhammad with a bomb in his turban. Others, however, were actually on to the newspaper's scheme and criticized it - in a way so that the newspaper wouldn't be aware of the fact till post-publication: One drawing had a schoolboy, 'of other ethnic origin' (anden etnisk herkomst), as we say in Denmark, write on the blackboard in Farsi: "Jyllands-Postens redaktion er en flok reaktionære provokatører." (Wikipedia) i.e. The editorial staff of Jyllands-Posten are a bunch of reactionary provocateurs. Another drawing is of a Danish writer in a turban, and in from of the turban there's an orange with the words: "PR stunt!"

So even at the time, some of the people commissioned to make Muhammad drawings were well aware what was going on and turned their drawings into protests against Jyllands-Posten's PR stunt since that was what it was.
The Muslim minority in Denmark were an easy target since they didn't have any power as consumers, i.e. they couldn't threaten to stop reading the paper since they didn't read it anyway.
The cowards at Jyllands-Posten expected everything to be over at this point: They had raised their (false) profile as valiant freedom fighters and put the impotent minority in their place. However, since the Danish Muslims had contacts in the rest of the world, which seemed to take the idiots at Jyllands-Posten by surprise, the situation escalated when they were informed.
And in the months following the drawings, there were embassy burnings and violent demonstrations all over the world.
And in Denmark 'ethnic Danes' demonstrated against the Muslim demonstrations abroad. One rally organized by Danish Front has 20-30 participants, one of them Danish Nazi leader Jonni Hansen. There are other rallies organized by ordinary Danes demonstrating for peace and reconciliation with the Muslim world with thousands of participants.

When several newspapers decided to reprint the Muhammed drawings in 2008, 58,5% of all Danes thought that it was a stupid idea. I have already linked to my own comment that year in Dansk Skeptica. I assume that google translate will come up with an English version that's readable: https://www.skeptica.dk/?p=1338

Some of you seem to think that Jyllands-Posten's stunt was actually about freedom of the press and against religion. It never was.

dann 22nd February 2019 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by applecorped (Post 12610629)
Your Surrender is accepted


I never surrender to stupid arguments, as you can see in my previous post!

Belz... 22nd February 2019 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12610686)
Some of you seem to think that Jyllands-Posten's stunt was actually about freedom of the press and against religion. It never was.

Sure.

And?

dann 22nd February 2019 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610501)
Yes, he is serious. Seriously, haven't you noticed the jubilation Europeans feel when they exonerate Muslims for their crimes and pin the blame on other whites?

eta: just saw your more recent post.


Who has been exonerated? The trials against the IS terrorists who killed the two Scandinavian tourists in Morocco haven't even started yet.

dann 22nd February 2019 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12610692)
Sure.

And?


Why do you expect an "And"?

Belz... 22nd February 2019 11:35 AM

Sorry, I thought you had a point beyond "they knew what they were getting into", which may sound a bit victim-blamingy to some.

carlitos 22nd February 2019 11:45 AM

I can't quote because the stupid forum software is buggy again.


dann - I'll stipulate that every word you say is true. You wrote:
Quote:


...they might still have been alive if Jyllands-Posten hadn't posted its stupid Muhammad drawing, which made Danes a target for Muslim extremists.
Even with your explanation, that reads to me as if you are giving the extremists an excuse. I hope that my free press provokes, offends, mocks and challenges any and all groups, especially nonsense like religion. If that makes citizens of my nation into targets of muslim extremists, I sure as hell am not going to blame the mocking press for it.

dudalb 22nd February 2019 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 12610444)
Shame on you. This is reprehensible, you giving cover to Muslim extremists by blaming the free press. I can't even believe I'm reading this here.



Just to be clear - were you making a joke or being sarcastic here?

This thread is bringing out the wackjobs on both sides of the spectrum.
A guy who thinks all Muslims are evil and and a guy who seems to want to excuse these disgusting killings.
There are people who consider every Muslim a terrorist, and those who are so afraid of being labeled an "Islamophobe" they will defend the worst fanantic.
A plague on both their houses, as far as I am concerned.

dudalb 22nd February 2019 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 12610471)
Yeah, I read the follow-up after I posted that. Bummer.

Bitter fact is some on the militant left consider Isis and company to be just slightly misguided Anti Imperialist Freedom FIghters. Sort of a Bizarro version of Baylor and his ilk.

Belz... 22nd February 2019 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12610791)
This thread is bringing out the wackjobs on both sides of the spectrum.
A guy who thinks all Muslims are evil and and a guy who seems to want to excuse these disgusting killings.
There are people who consider every Muslim a terrorist, and those who are so afraid of being labeled an "Islamophobe" they will defend the worst fanantic.
A plague on both their houses, as far as I am concerned.

Want to join my hindwing political party? :)

kookbreaker 22nd February 2019 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belz... (Post 12610617)
Well at least some real people write most of those comments.

Hypothetical audiences don't even exist.

Arguable, I guess. One wonders if the imaginary audience of scared geniuses in your head is a downstep from saying “well Hitlerwzrite88, Whtepryde, and KillallMzlims all agreed with me!”

dudalb 22nd February 2019 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baylor (Post 12610228)
I barely mentioned it. I was more focused on the brainwashing campaign these poor girls had to endure. I find it alarming young people in Europe (however few there are) are not being taught that different rules apply in different parts of the world. Whether it's Dutch girls in South America, Germans in Death Valley (not bringing water to death valley in July (LOL)). High trust social welfare nanny states don't exist outside your lily white countries. When you leave your white nanny states, different rules apply. And if you don't understand this, it could cost you your life. As was the case with these two girls.

I got news for you. Plenty of Americans get dehydratation and Heat Exhaustion problems through their own Stupidity in Death Valley. And they are of both sexes.
I know. I work for the Federal Agency which manages most of Death Valley.
And your post just reeks of sexism.

baron 22nd February 2019 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dann (Post 12610689)
I never surrender to stupid arguments...

Just to logical ones? Thank you very much, I accept your concession.

dann 22nd February 2019 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitos (Post 12610748)
I can't quote because the stupid forum software is buggy again.


dann - I'll stipulate that every word you say is true. You wrote:
Even with your explanation, that reads to me as if you are giving the extremists an excuse. I hope that my free press provokes, offends, mocks and challenges any and all groups, especially nonsense like religion. If that makes citizens of my nation into targets of muslim extremists, I sure as hell am not going to blame the mocking press for it.


It may read like that to you, but notice that that's not what I actually write. I don't say that it makes it legitimate for extremists to kill young Scandinavian women or anybody else, but it was their reason for beginning to target Danes. Until 2005 Danes could travel all around the world, and the Danish flag on a backpack more or less served as 'protection'. (Not that I ever did so myself: I'm not a nationalist!)
After Jyllands-Posten's drawings, however, that was no longer possible.
When you hope that 'your' "free press provokes, offends, mocks and challenges any (!) and all (!) groups, especially nonsense like religion," I can't really take you seriously. Why would you mock the disabled, for instance? Or the poor? Sexual minorities? I don't really see the point of that.
And I would like you to understand that Jyllands-Posten didn't mock religion. It mocked a minority religion Islam. (And it thought that it could do so with no adverse consequences for itself.)
Otherwise, do you think that the right-wingers in this thread would be as enthusiastic about Jyllands-Posten's drawings as they are?! If Jyllands-Posten had criticized Christianity instead? ETA: As you can see in Baron's post, # 152.

baron 22nd February 2019 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudalb (Post 12610791)
This thread is bringing out the wackjobs on both sides of the spectrum.
A guy who thinks all Muslims are evil and and a guy who seems to want to excuse these disgusting killings.
There are people who consider every Muslim a terrorist, and those who are so afraid of being labeled an "Islamophobe" they will defend the worst fanantic.
A plague on both their houses, as far as I am concerned.

A plague on the houses of the fringes of those groups, too. The popular idea that the only dangerous Muslims are a few thousand ISIS and a bunch of Boko Haram is no better than going full apologist. In the same way as the notion that all Muslims are savages aside from a couple of great boxers and the guy you went to school with. The fact is, great swatches of the Muslim world are, in Western terminology, barbaric, and there's no getting away from that.


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