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-   -   Do we create time? (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301137)

Alexander1304 2nd December 2015 01:06 PM

Do we create time?
 
Hi folks,
I decided to put it here,in 'Science' section,and not under 'Paranormal'.
It is about Robert Lanza'z another article.He argues that we create time,not other way around.Here is the article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert..._b_774814.html

What bothers me with Lanza's articles that he always uses scientific experiments to support his ideas.For examples,in this article he uses references to some experiments to point out that we create time.

Quote:

Numerous experiments confirm that such uncertainty is built into the fabric of reality. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is a fundamental concept of quantum physics. However, it only makes sense from a biocentric perspective
What do you guys think?You see,it makes sense only under 'bioncentrism'. Or is it one more woo?
Well,perhaps it shouldn't be put on 'Science',but on some other section...
Thank you

Lukraak_Sisser 2nd December 2015 01:40 PM

The whole 'theory' lacks any actual explanatory power.

Alexander1304 2nd December 2015 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser (Post 11008692)
The whole 'theory' lacks any actual explanatory power.

Did You read the article? I am puzzled that he uses experiments,but it seems to me that he interprets these experiments for his own theory use

Wow,here:
http://www.near-death.com/science/research/science.html
I found this about Lanza:

Quote:

His mentors described him as a "genius" and the "Bill Gates of Science."

tuco 2nd December 2015 02:19 PM

I got upto here:

Quote:

According to biocentrism, time is the inner sense that animates the still frames of the spatial world.
Robert Lanza, M.D. Become a fan
Scientist, theoretician and author, 'Biocentrism'


Alright M.D. Lanza, I do not think I will become fan.

Dancing David 2nd December 2015 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander1304 (Post 11008604)
Hi folks,
I decided to put it here,in 'Science' section,and not under 'Paranormal'.
It is about Robert Lanza'z another article.He argues that we create time,not other way around.Here is the article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert..._b_774814.html

What bothers me with Lanza's articles that he always uses scientific experiments to support his ideas.For examples,in this article he uses references to some experiments to point out that we create time.



What do you guys think?You see,it makes sense only under 'bioncentrism'. Or is it one more woo?
Well,perhaps it shouldn't be put on 'Science',but on some other section...
Thank you


that article is very silly it basically takes some QM and then spins a fairy tale out of it. No real reason to say that 'time' doesn't exist.

The passage of events occurs, that is the essence of time, the human usage of that idea does not exclude it from reality.

Alexander1304 2nd December 2015 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing David (Post 11008810)
that article is very silly it basically takes some QM and then spins a fairy tale out of it. No real reason to say that 'time' doesn't exist.

The passage of events occurs, that is the essence of time, the human usage of that idea does not exclude it from reality.

Hi David,
You see,Lanza even says that uncertainty principle makes sense only under biocentrism.Initially I was baffled but then thought: "Biocenstrism is Lanza's theory,of course he will say everything make sense in his to support his theory.Shouldn't be big surprise

Darwin123 2nd December 2015 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander1304 (Post 11008604)
Hi folks,

What do you guys think?You see,it makes sense only under 'bioncentrism'. Or is it one more woo?
Well,perhaps it shouldn't be put on 'Science',but on some other section...


This is woo through and through.

I focus on one paragraph that is just plain wrong.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert..._b_774814.html
‘An experiment published in 1990 suggests that Zeno was right. In this experiment, scientists demonstrated the quantum equivalent of the adage that "a watched pot doesn't boil." This behavior, the "quantum Zeno effect," turns out to be a function of observation. "It seems,"said physicist Peter Coveney, "that the act of looking at an atom prevents it from changing". Theoretically, if a nuclear bomb were watched intently enough -- that is, if you could check its atoms every million trillionth of a second -- it wouldn't explode. Bizarre? The problem lies not in the experiments but in our way of thinking about time. Biocentrism is the only comprehensible way to explain these results, which are only "weird" in the context of the existing paradigm.’

The ‘observation’ in Lanza’s paragraph, quoted above, does not intrinsically require living organisms. Hence, biocentrism is not a very comprehensible way of explaining the results. To see this, examine an actual experiment closer.


Here is an article describing an experiment which demonstrated the quantum Zeno effect. The articles has a description of the apparatus, the atomic system and the data analysis. In particular, please look at Figure 2.


Please show us any biological intervention in the experiment taking place after the apparatus is built and turned on.



http://www.kristian.molhave.dk/publi...%20effect).pdf
Demonstration of the continuous quantum Zeno effect in optical pumping
22 24q
K. Mølhave, M. Drewsen
A continuous quantum Zeno effect is observed in optical pumping on the 3s S1r2–3p P1r2 transition of the Mg ion.


Also note that the quantum zeno effect is used in inorganic devices as well as organisms. The use of the Zeno effect in inorganic devices shows that biology is not central to its operation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect
‘The Quantum Zeno Effect is used in commercial atomic magnetometers and naturally by birds' magnetic compass sensory mechanism (magnetoreception).


So if the organism is central, how does the atomic magnetometer work?

Darwin123 2nd December 2015 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander1304 (Post 11008604)

What do you guys think?You see,it makes sense only under 'bioncentrism'. Or is it one more woo?


Every atomic clock is included with a pair of trained cockroaches and a ten year supply of bull ****.

Dancing David 2nd December 2015 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander1304 (Post 11008820)
Hi David,
You see,Lanza even says that uncertainty principle makes sense only under biocentrism.Initially I was baffled but then thought: "Biocenstrism is Lanza's theory,of course he will say everything make sense in his to support his theory.Shouldn't be big surprise

Hi,
yeah it sounds like they have a hammer, so everything is a nail.

QM and the UP do not say that time doesn't exist. It has different meanings at very small scales, but us humans interact with the macrosopic world.

JoeBentley 2nd December 2015 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander1304 (Post 11008604)
What do you guys think?

That the word salad needs some dressing.

steve s 2nd December 2015 08:16 PM

Quote:

He argues that we create time
Wouldn't that mean that time didn't exist before humans existed? That would mean the entire universe is here just for us.

Steve S

tuco 2nd December 2015 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve s (Post 11009522)
Wouldn't that mean that time didn't exist before humans existed? That would mean the entire universe is here just for us.

Steve S

That is, if I understand it correctly, what "biocentrism" is. Its lets say world view or a cool story depends whom we ask.

catsmate 3rd December 2015 07:26 AM

Quote:

Do we create time?
No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuco (Post 11008785)
I got upto here:

Robert Lanza, M.D. Become a fan
Scientist, theoretician and author, 'Biocentrism'

Alright M.D. Lanza, I do not think I will become fan.

Good choice, Lanza is a well-known woo-peddler. He's a physician with a nonsensical take on quantum mechanics that he's been peddling for years.

Darwin123 3rd December 2015 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuco (Post 11009530)
That is, if I understand it correctly, what "biocentrism" is. Its lets say world view or a cool story depends whom we ask.

So 'biocentrism' is the same as 'post modernism'?

Or:

'Is Biocentrism' the same as 'sophistry', a classical Greek variation of post modernism?

bruto 3rd December 2015 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander1304 (Post 11008604)
Hi folks,
I decided to put it here,in 'Science' section,and not under 'Paranormal'.
It is about Robert Lanza'z another article.He argues that we create time,not other way around.Here is the article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert..._b_774814.html

What bothers me with Lanza's articles that he always uses scientific experiments to support his ideas.For examples,in this article he uses references to some experiments to point out that we create time.



What do you guys think?You see,it makes sense only under 'bioncentrism'. Or is it one more woo?
Well,perhaps it shouldn't be put on 'Science',but on some other section...
Thank you

What I suspect from the start is that the two highlighted statements are not identical.

Tiktaalik 4th December 2015 06:44 AM

I always thought time was due to the Celery Gap. Arlo Guthrie told me so.

W.D.Clinger 4th December 2015 07:08 AM

Do we create time?
 
We waste time, mostly.

Mike! 4th December 2015 10:46 AM

I must posses some kind of superhuman powers as I have watched more than several pots of water, on a hot stove, start to boil right before my very eyes!
The question is, how can I harvest this awesome power for my own gain?

hecd2 4th December 2015 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 11012514)
I must posses some kind of superhuman powers as I have watched more than several pots of water, on a hot stove, start to boil right before my very eyes!

What's it like?

bruto 4th December 2015 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 11012514)
I must posses some kind of superhuman powers as I have watched more than several pots of water, on a hot stove, start to boil right before my very eyes!
The question is, how can I harvest this awesome power for my own gain?

Keep on practicing until you reach zero point and then solicit money through the web. For only $X, I'll send you my trade secret to boiling water with your brain.

Daylightstar 4th December 2015 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 11012514)
I must posses some kind of superhuman powers as I have watched more than several pots of water, on a hot stove, start to boil right before my very eyes!
The question is, how can I harvest this awesome power for my own gain?

For what purpose (if any) did you boil those pots of water?

Darwin123 4th December 2015 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daylightstar (Post 11012673)
For what purpose (if any) did you boil those pots of water?

Shrewd! :) No one else asked about the baby in the pot! ;)

Kid Eager 4th December 2015 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 11012514)
I must posses some kind of superhuman powers as I have watched more than several pots of water, on a hot stove, start to boil right before my very eyes!
The question is, how can I harvest this awesome power for my own gain?

This only serves to demonstrate the proverb "a watched pot is never alone"

stevea 4th December 2015 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing David (Post 11008810)
that article is very silly it basically takes some QM and then spins a fairy tale out of it.

But only a very silly fairy tale - that ignores all the conventional means of defining time. There is nothing 'biocentric" about the Heisenberg principal, it's simply a tautology about physical information.

There is no question that there is more to learn about the quantum nature of time, as well as the limitation of an anthropomorphic viewpoint of physics - but Lanza seems heavily invested in promoting a 'voo-doo' position with zero backing evidence.

If his theories are 'scientific'(testable), then as a scientist he should propose a means to test them. Otherwise they are religion & mysticism.

Mike! 4th December 2015 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hecd2 (Post 11012612)
What's it like?

It was sort of impressive, the very first time I saw it, but over time I've gotten so used to it, I'd rarely, if ever, gave it any thought.
That was, until I'd read the OP, then it was like... Woah, mind = blown. I must have time altering superpowers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruto (Post 11012613)
Keep on practicing until you reach zero point and then solicit money through the web. For only $X, I'll send you my trade secret to boiling water with your brain.

Now we're talking! What good are time altering superpowers if you can't profit from them?
If I'm not mistaken, 'Zero Point' is the same as 'Pointless', right? If so, I'm pretty close to that now. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daylightstar (Post 11012673)
For what purpose (if any) did you boil those pots of water?

Mainly to generate the unholy substance known as 'Mac'n'Cheese', which, despite my utter revulsion to the substance, my kids love to no end. Go figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darwin123 (Post 11012820)
Shrewd! :) No one else asked about the baby in the pot! ;)

No, no, no. What's in the pot is FOR the babies. (See above)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kid Eager (Post 11013043)
This only serves to demonstrate the proverb "a watched pot is never alone"

Isn't it, "A watched clock never tics.", or is it, 'A stitch in time has blown my mind.' ? ;)

Kid Eager 4th December 2015 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 11013384)
It was sort of impressive, the very first time I saw it, but over time I've gotten so used to it, I'd rarely, if ever, gave it any thought.
That was, until I'd read the OP, then it was like... Woah, mind = blown. I must have time altering superpowers.



Now we're talking! What good are time altering superpowers if you can't profit from them?
If I'm not mistaken, 'Zero Point' is the same as 'Pointless', right? If so, I'm pretty close to that now. :D



Mainly to generate the unholy substance known as 'Mac'n'Cheese', which, despite my utter revulsion to the substance, my kids love to no end. Go figure.



No, no, no. What's in the pot is FOR the babies. (See above)



Isn't it, "A watched clock never tics.", or is it, 'A stitch in time has blown my mind.' ? ;)

Nonononono! It's "a stitch in time causes puckering"

Manopolus 4th December 2015 08:13 PM

Nevermind.

Daylightstar 5th December 2015 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 11013384)
...
Mainly to generate the unholy substance known as 'Mac'n'Cheese', which, despite my utter revulsion to the substance, my kids love to no end. Go figure.
...

Okay, so that's for others' gain. The problem of harvesting that power for your own gain has just become more difficult

RussDill 5th December 2015 03:13 AM

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Mike! 5th December 2015 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussDill (Post 11013889)
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

That's very deep. You should send that to Readers Digest, they have a page for things like that.

Tiktaalik 5th December 2015 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kid Eager (Post 11013415)
Nonononono! It's "a stitch in time causes puckering"

I thought the relevant quote was, "A watched boil never pops."

fuelair 7th December 2015 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBentley (Post 11009000)
That the word salad needs some dressing down!!!!.

FTFY:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp

Reality Check 8th December 2015 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander1304 (Post 11008604)
It is about Robert Lanza'z another article.

Robert Lanza is lying, Alexander1304.
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is a fundamental concept of quantum physics that has made sense since 1928. Biocentrism has only existed since 2007.

Ziggurat 8th December 2015 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reality Check (Post 11020634)
Robert Lanza is lying, Alexander1304.
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is a fundamental concept of quantum physics that has made sense since 1928. Biocentrism has only existed since 2007.

I agree, but I think we can state the case even more strongly. The uncertainty principle in all its forms (the Heisenberg one being just one of many) is a direct mathematical consequence of a mathematical theory which makes no reference to biology. In fact, it doesn't even depend upon any measurements (where stuff like observers and consciousness are usually shoehorned in), it's a property of the wave function itself, at all times.

"To the layman, the philosopher, or the classical physicist, a statement of the form "this particle doesn't have a well-defined position" (or momentum, or x-component of spin angular momentum, or whatever) sounds vague, incompetent, or (worst of all) profound. It is none of these. But its precise meaning is, I think, almost impossible to convey to anyone who has not studied quantum mechanics in some depth."
- David Griffiths, "Introduction to Quantum Mechanics"

Skeptic Ginger 8th December 2015 09:13 PM

So before humans there was no time?

No, just no. It makes a tad too much out of the place for humans in the Universe., way to human-centric.

Mike! 9th December 2015 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger (Post 11020744)
So before humans there was no time?

No, just no. It makes a tad too much out of the place for humans in the Universe., way to human-centric.

Yes, but, without humans, there's no real need for 'time', is there?

bruto 9th December 2015 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 11021140)
Yes, but, without humans, there's no real need for 'time', is there?

Or space or anything else, for that matter. Though we can relent a little and give God a week or so to arrange the furniture.

Steve 9th December 2015 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike! (Post 11013384)
Mainly to generate the unholy substance known as 'Mac'n'Cheese', which, despite my utter revulsion to the substance, my kids love to no end. Go figure.

What a quaint name for it. In these parts we know it as Yellow Death.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RussDill (Post 11013889)
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Sounds like something a certain Mr. Adams might have written.

deaman 9th December 2015 09:55 AM

Do we create time?
 
Do you have the time, to create time?

Incidentally, do you have "the time".

bruto 9th December 2015 12:28 PM

Wasn't there some TV cop once who said that if you can't do the time don't create it or something?


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