Ed Finnish WWII history, Karelian Independence and the Russian Monarchy.

Vixen

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Messages
41,148
Location
Varsinais-Suomi
Should the monarchy be reinstated in Russia now that the USSR has fallen?

Other questions:

Was the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II Romanov and subsequent annihilation of his family by the Bolsheviks justified?

Or did the Romanovs only have themselves to blame?

If the monarchy comes back, who should be the leading contender?


A study conducted by the All-Russian Center for Public Opinion showed that almost one third of the Russian population favor a restoration as of 2013.



In 2017, a survey conducted by Izvestia found that 22 percent of all Russians were "not against the monarchy, but . . . did not see a candidate for such a post." The survey also found that of young Russians 37 percent supported the restoration of the monarchy.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_of_the_Russian_monarchy

Could such an occurrence help provide stability to the volatile Russian state and rein in politicians? For example, Putin?

ETA Could it be Prince Harry, as put forward by one pundit, according to Moscow Times:

In 2012, the late exiled tycoon Boris Berezovsky campaigned to reinstate a constitutional monarchy led by Prince Harry in Russia.
https://themoscowtimes.com/news/rem...oated-prince-harry-as-russias-next-tsar-61504
 
Last edited:
Should the monarchy be reinstated in Russia now that the USSR has fallen?

Given that the Former Soviets have had little experience with responsible government, that really isn't going to solve any governmental issues. All it would do is put a dictator in power for life, or install a useful puppet.

Other questions:

Was the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II Romanov and subsequent annihilation of his family by the Bolsheviks justified?

Yes, his mismanagement of the war and subsequent social disruption and refusal to recognize changing social conditions justified his removal from power.

The later killing? Not so much.

Or did the Romanovs only have themselves to blame?

Given that they were absolute monarchs, yes.

If the monarchy comes back, who should be the leading contender?

Putin, no one else would have the power to remove him from his position as head of state and assume control.


Could such an occurrence help provide stability to the volatile Russian state and rein in politicians? For example, Putin?

Again, with a history of only absolute rulers or rule by a corrupt oligarchy, I'm going with no.

A constitutional monarchy like that of Canada or Great Britain isn't going to spring fully formed into being. That took a couple of hundred years of development to get to.
 
No. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be, and is no substitute for rational thought.

Case in point: Brexit
 
Presumably, because a hypothetical restored Russian monarchy could be considered a continuation of the former Russian monarchy, thus providing someone to compensate the Baltic Germans.

Dave
The impression I get away with when reading the OP's posts in the "Baltic Germans" thread is that not only she wants them compensated, she wants them to get back their estates, she wants them to get back their political privileges as a ruling class, and she wants reinstatement of serfdom.
 
Should the monarchy be reinstated in Russia now that the USSR has fallen?
Tsar Vladimir IV.

Was the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II Romanov and subsequent annihilation of his family by the Bolsheviks justified?
Yes and no. They could have been exiled rather than killed.

Or did the Romanovs only have themselves to blame?
Not entirely. But largely.

If the monarchy comes back, who should be the leading contender?
Do you seriously think Putin would allow anyone else to take the throne?

Could such an occurrence help provide stability to the volatile Russian state and rein in politicians? For example, Putin?
No.

ETA Could it be Prince Harry, as put forward by one pundit, according to Moscow Times:
Not in the real world.
 
The impression I get away with when reading the OP's posts in the "Baltic Germans" thread is that not only she wants them compensated, she wants them to get back their estates, she wants them to get back their political privileges as a ruling class, and she wants reinstatement of serfdom.

I have never said anything of the sort.

Think about it. It was the early crusaders who brought civilisation to the heathen Nordic and Slavic masses, who might still be worshipping Odin, Perkele and Baba wotsit, and living like beasts in the field, were it not for the early pioneers.
 
Why do you even ask?

I thought I might be in the running. After looking up Russian serfdom wrt to another thread, I discovered this:

Nicholas II, Tsar of Russia is your 12th cousin twice removed. (geni.com)

The link is, my 12th great grandmother Margaretha von Dönhoff, whose brother, Gerhard "der Alte" von Dönhoff, III (my thirteenth great uncle) is his thirteenth great grandfather.

However, as I am not of Russian Greek Orthodox faith, I wouldn't qualify. But I am better qualified than Vladimir Putin.
 
I have never said anything of the sort.

Think about it. It was the early crusaders who brought civilisation to the heathen Nordic and Slavic masses, who might still be worshipping Odin, Perkele and Baba wotsit, and living like beasts in the field, were it not for the early pioneers.

It's rare to see a complete disregard for historical fact coupled with a tinge of racism and religious zealotry uttered with an almost Victorian era sensibility - Bravo.

Lets start with a few misconceptions - the 12th and 13th century crusaders coloured their wars of aggressive territorial expansion for the Polish, Swedish and Danish Kingdoms by claiming it as a series of wars to spread the Catholic faith. We know that is just a smoke screen because the Lithuanians were targeted by these "crusaders" despite being Catholic. These crusaders also tried to annex lands from the Orthodox Slavic kingdoms, so the spread of Christianity was NOT the prime reason for these wars - control of territory was.

Second - like most people living in Europe at that time, the Balts were farmers or fishermen. there were few cities of the sort found in Germany, but there were some. The Old Prussians, Wends, Latvians, etc. were not savages living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle - they were farmers and fishermen.

Third - why is your set of superstitions preferable to the Baltic peoples set of superstitions? Christianity has been the tool of the ruling classes to ensure that the lower orders don't argue too much against their station in life or poor treatment by their superiors on the grounds that their rewards for obedience will come in the next world and to ensure that women are restricted to being second class citizens (if that). While I haven't looked at Finnish or Prussian pagan beliefs to any great extent, the old norse faiths didn't restrict the legal rights of women to the same extent as their contemporaneous Christian counterparts did.

What you've argued for in your statement is a slightly milder version of "white man's burden", a mode of thinking that denigrates any social order, thought pattern or ethnic origin other than one's own. It very clearly demonstrates a racist mode of thinking.
 
But he is a commoner, is he not?

There is nothing magical about "noble" or "royal" bloodlines.

Kings of old were nothing but successful warlords who were able to seize power, pass it on to their descendants and convince others that this was a sound system of government.
 
There is nothing magical about "noble" or "royal" bloodlines.

Kings of old were nothing but successful warlords who were able to seize power, pass it on to their descendants and convince others that this was a sound system of government.
In the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth they were elected as lifetime heads of State by the nobility, a numerically significant element of the male population. The status of kingship was not hereditary.

Voltaire claimed that this was a survival of ancient Sarmatian custom, but I'm not sure that he was right. More probably it was the powerful nobility maximising their share of social influence at the expense of the Crown.
 
Last edited:
The only thing a monarchy really has going for it is that it frees the chief executive from having to do all the ceremonial BS like going to state funerals and reading books to grade schoolers. Assuming a democratic constitutional monarchy of course. It really gets on my nerves that we expect the US president to show up to every disaster site as a show of...sympathy or what ever. It can only hinder recover efforts for the POTUS and his retinue to show up.
 
Should the monarchy be reinstated in Russia now that the USSR has fallen?

If the monarchy comes back, who should be the leading contender?


/QUOTE]

In his novel, Icon, Frederick Forsyth suggests that an un-named member of the British Royal Family has the necessary credentials to be eligible for becoming the Russian Tsar. Unfortunately, Prince Michael of Kent, this character's real-life equivalent, at 75, is a bit old for such a tough job.
 
Well, the Ming dynasty in China, generally regarded as pretty much as close as you can get to a golden age (if you don't mind the secret police and repression and such), was started by a rebelling peasant. The Hongwu Emperor was born as Zhu Yuanzhang, and not only wasn't of noble birth, but was a starving tenant farmer.
 
It really gets on my nerves that we expect the US president to show up to every disaster site as a show of...sympathy or what ever. It can only hinder recover efforts for the POTUS and his retinue to show up.

That still happens with a PM.
 
The only thing a monarchy really has going for it is that it frees the chief executive from having to do all the ceremonial BS like going to state funerals and reading books to grade schoolers.
I don't think that the Queen is in the habit of reading books to school students, so perhaps the President could omit it from the list of his ceremonial obligations without imperilling the US constitution
 
The USSR turned toes up a generation ago.

I once knew a man named Romanov, a Russian professor of engineering. He was a rather timid fellow, and seemed to mistake me, a low to middling administrator, for a commissar, and literally clicked his heels and bowed when leaving my office. He had, of course, grown up under commie rule, and I doubt that it was easy to be Comrade Romanov.

But he'd make a better czar than Nicky 2 ever was.
 
I don't think that the Queen is in the habit of reading books to school students, so perhaps the President could omit it from the list of his ceremonial obligations without imperilling the US constitution
Its only one of many pointless things presidents do that would be best either not done or done by someone else.
That still happens with a PM.
But I guess that's just a pipe dream.
 
Last edited:
But I am better qualified than Vladimir Putin.

That... seems implausible.

Indeed, by virtue of his life experience and will to power, I think Putin may be uniquely qualified to wrangle the Russian oligarchs, placate the Russian masses, and stand up to Russia's enemies on the global stage.

Whatever personal qualities you think make you superior to Vladimir Putin, I doubt any of them even remotely qualify you for the work he has set out for himself, that he has accomplished and continues to accomplish. At the level he's playing at, I doubt there are very many people in the world who are qualified to even make the mistakes he's made. The mistakes you or I would make would disqualify us before we even moved from the KGB to the government of St. Petersburg.

You think you'd do a better job, but I bet it would boil down to trying to get a better outcome but only making things worse instead.

Now, if you had said you were better qualified than Donald Trump, that would be a different story altogether.
 
Last edited:
I have never said anything of the sort.
Oh, you've made quite the apologetics for both.

Think about it. It was the early crusaders who brought civilisation to the heathen Nordic and Slavic masses, who might still be worshipping Odin, Perkele and Baba wotsit, and living like beasts in the field, were it not for the early pioneers.
Oh, they were Untermenschen? :rolleyes:
For the rest, I have nothing to add to Border Reiver's dissection of your post.
 
It's rare to see a complete disregard for historical fact coupled with a tinge of racism and religious zealotry uttered with an almost Victorian era sensibility - Bravo.

Lets start with a few misconceptions - the 12th and 13th century crusaders coloured their wars of aggressive territorial expansion for the Polish, Swedish and Danish Kingdoms by claiming it as a series of wars to spread the Catholic faith. We know that is just a smoke screen because the Lithuanians were targeted by these "crusaders" despite being Catholic. These crusaders also tried to annex lands from the Orthodox Slavic kingdoms, so the spread of Christianity was NOT the prime reason for these wars - control of territory was.

Second - like most people living in Europe at that time, the Balts were farmers or fishermen. there were few cities of the sort found in Germany, but there were some. The Old Prussians, Wends, Latvians, etc. were not savages living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle - they were farmers and fishermen.

Third - why is your set of superstitions preferable to the Baltic peoples set of superstitions? Christianity has been the tool of the ruling classes to ensure that the lower orders don't argue too much against their station in life or poor treatment by their superiors on the grounds that their rewards for obedience will come in the next world and to ensure that women are restricted to being second class citizens (if that). While I haven't looked at Finnish or Prussian pagan beliefs to any great extent, the old norse faiths didn't restrict the legal rights of women to the same extent as their contemporaneous Christian counterparts did.

What you've argued for in your statement is a slightly milder version of "white man's burden", a mode of thinking that denigrates any social order, thought pattern or ethnic origin other than one's own. It very clearly demonstrates a racist mode of thinking.


I was being tongue-in-cheek. Sometimes it is a useful exercise to take a contrarian stance, in an attempt to get the objective view, rather than falling back on attitudes we were taught in schools or through one's family, friends, social media, the press, tv, radio, etc., etc,.

Yes, we all know 'the ruling classes are bad', 'the serfs are the victims' or that 'inequality is the only thing stopping people reaching their potential'.

But do people ever examine their fondly held beliefs, or do they simply fall back on trendy slogans and sound bites?

In history, nothing is 100% good nor 100% bad.

Did Christianity introduce oppression of women?

Control of territory? I am sure this was an aim. However, bear in mind the population of Europe was much smaller than today, and the plague wiped out over 25 million people in the late C17 and early C18. So one needs to beware of juxtaposing the conditions we live in now with those in the Middle Ages.

The truth is, ports, harbours, roads, farms, fisheries, boats, the navy, the army, et al, had to built up from scratch. Who do you think did all that? The same people who got up and explored the world and took opportunities where they found them.
 
Should the monarchy be reinstated in Russia now that the USSR has fallen?

If the monarchy comes back, who should be the leading contender?


/QUOTE]

In his novel, Icon, Frederick Forsyth suggests that an un-named member of the British Royal Family has the necessary credentials to be eligible for becoming the Russian Tsar. Unfortunately, Prince Michael of Kent, this character's real-life equivalent, at 75, is a bit old for such a tough job.

His horrible wife would probably relish the role :/
 
There is nothing magical about "noble" or "royal" bloodlines.

Kings of old were nothing but successful warlords who were able to seize power, pass it on to their descendants and convince others that this was a sound system of government.

Do you agree with today's inheritance laws? If so you are agreeing with something that started in the Middle Ages.

In fact, the laws of England and Wales has its roots in old Anglo-Saxon lore. For example, you injure my foot, I demand six of your cattle.
 
Given that the Former Soviets have had little experience with responsible government, that really isn't going to solve any governmental issues. All it would do is put a dictator in power for life, or install a useful puppet.



Yes, his mismanagement of the war and subsequent social disruption and refusal to recognize changing social conditions justified his removal from power.

The later killing? Not so much.


Given that they were absolute monarchs, yes.



Putin, no one else would have the power to remove him from his position as head of state and assume control.




Again, with a history of only absolute rulers or rule by a corrupt oligarchy, I'm going with no.

A constitutional monarchy like that of Canada or Great Britain isn't going to spring fully formed into being. That took a couple of hundred years of development to get to.


But don't you see, that was the logical conclusion to the fevered idealistic Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries? They were not going to get rid of the hated oppressive, obscenely ostentatious, Tsar and family unless they made sure the lineage was halted once and for all. After all, the right to the throne is through birth so as a raving Bolshevik, of course the slaughter of the monarchy is an inevitable part of the plan.

In addition, it symbolised the object of their hatred: the bourgeoise, living off the labour of others.
 
Oh, you've made quite the apologetics for both.


Oh, they were Untermenschen? :rolleyes:
For the rest, I have nothing to add to Border Reiver's dissection of your post.

Untermenschen? You do know that Plato's Republic, wherein he outlines a stratified system of government, with an elite class of rulers out dates your favourite nazi references by about 2.5K years? Ot even Nietzche got there before Hitler.

You need to come out of your petit bourgeois bubble of comfortable numbness.

As John Lennon put it, "You think you're so clever and classless and free. But you're still *********** peasants as far as I can see".
 
The link is, my 12th great grandmother Margaretha von Dönhoff, whose brother, Gerhard "der Alte" von Dönhoff, III (my thirteenth great uncle) is his thirteenth great grandfather.
Your cousin X times removed (*), "the red countess" Marion Gráfin Donhöff, would turn in her grave if she'd read your posts.

(*) that is, if your claim is true, the probability of which is epsilon based on your posting history.
 
Untermenschen? You do know that Plato's Republic, wherein he outlines a stratified system of government, with an elite class of rulers out dates your favourite nazi references by about 2.5K years? Ot even Nietzche got there before Hitler.

You need to come out of your petit bourgeois bubble of comfortable numbness.

As John Lennon put it, "You think you're so clever and classless and free. But you're still *********** peasants as far as I can see".

You described them "living like beasts in the field". That's more than a tinge of racism, that is outright racist and describing them as subhuman. That description is worse than Border Reiver's charitable interpretation of those words that you'd meant hunter-and-gatherers. While hunter-and-gatherers applied complex reasoning behind their means of survival, you only ascribed them instinct.
 

Back
Top Bottom