realpaladin
Master Poster
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2007
- Messages
- 2,585
@JSFisher I guess he means that you are not 'using Philosophy'...
as if that were some method to be used....
as if that were some method to be used....
How many repetitions are required? Cantor's Theorem: For any set, S, |S| < |P(S)|.
You want a link for that? Ok, links.
So, after all jsfisher can't support his argument by using detailed reply to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10034959&postcount=3854 (including its links).
{ a , b , c , ... }
↕ ↕ ↕
{{a},{b},{c}, ... }
Ok, let's summarize what we have
By using Philosophy (meta-view of Mathematics) and Mathematics, it is shown that the axioms of a formal theory like ZFC are expressions that combine at least two levels of existence
...<some pipe dream stuff snipped>...
Cantor's theorem uses relative measure between S and P(S) and proves...
...<more snippage>...
We can use an example Cantor's theorem...
...<latest failure snipped>...
Ok, let's summarize what we have:
By using Philosophy (meta-view of Mathematics) and Mathematics, it is shown that the axioms of a formal theory like ZFC are expressions that combine at least two levels of existence, which are:
<snip>
You mean what you made up, invented out of thin air without any basis other than a multi-year fool's errand hell-bent on proving Mathematics wrong.
You didn't show any such thing. You simple alleged it to be true without any proof or even basic definitions for your unique terminology usage.
No and no. The theorem does not prove anything. The theorem simply states that for any set, S, |S|<|P(S)|.
Please stop conflating the theorem itself with a common proof method for the theorem.
Well, you haven't been able to so far.
...and this was no exception.
Too many words that simply show that you have no argument.
Yes, and what about you?Look into a mirror lately?
Too many words that simply show that you have no argument.
As for Cantor's Theorem, it is Cantor's statement about S and P(S), where by using proof by contradiction....
These new notions defiantly do not need any proof, because they go deeper than the axioms that are clarified by them, and it is well known that even at the level of axioms no proof is needed.
No matter how many times it will be explained, there are people that simply can't understand that Philosophy (by being used as meta-view of Mathematics) can provide new notions about mathematical axioms.
These new notions defiantly do not need any proof, because they go deeper than the axioms that are clarified by them, and it is well known that even at the level of axioms no proof is needed.
Your keepers do not improve your notions, because thay are not refer also to yourself for better self criticism. You should try it form time to time.Now, there's a keeper.
Ho, by the way, I do not use Intuitionism (which rejects the notion of actual infinity). In other words, I do use Platonism AND Formalism, such that actual infinity is at the platonic level of existence of a given formal axiom of sets, where potential infinity is at the non-platonic level of existence of the members of a given formal axiom of sets, where the non-platonic level of existence is inaccessible to the platonic level of existence.Oh, by the way, given your new-found love of intuitionism (coupled with formalism with a gibberish twist)
jsfisher, again you demonstrate your inability to use examples without loss of generality.Proof by contradiction is not constructive. For that matter, you don't get ZFC, either, nor any of the mathematics built on ZFC.
I deal with ZFC axioms. Since you do not use philosophical meta-view of Mathematics, you are unable to understand that Existential quantification is at the platonic level of existence (the level of actual infinity), where Universal quantification is at the non-platonic level of existence (Universal quantification dependents of the platonic level of existence of Existential quantification, but not vice versa).There are a few ZF-like axiom sets you can start with, though. Which one did you have in mind?
No, I use platonic and non-platonic levels of existence as fundamental terms of Philosophy AND Mathematics framework.So, are you wandering back to direct perception as you defense for lack of rigor, then?
{ a , b , c , ... }
↕ ↕ ↕
{{a},{b},{c}, ... }
By using Philosophy as meta-view of Mathematics, one enables unable to understand ...
Ho, by the way, I do not use Intuitionism (which rejects the notion of actual infinity).
You continually misuse this phrase. It is equivalent to, "Let me restate that same thing only differently." You use it as a connector of two orthogonal ideas. "I hate bananas. In other words, I love apples." No.In other words...
I do use Platonism AND Formalism...
At the end of my previews post, I wrongly wrote
It has to be:
"By using Philosophy as meta-view of Mathematics, one enables to understand ..."
No. Look up the word enables. Oh, and previews.
The fact you are so careless with language says a lot.
I agree with you jsfisher, we should not talk about acceptance or rejection of Actual Infinity, but about the understanding of the notion of Actual Infinity.If I recall correctly, both IZF and CZF include intuitionist versions of the Axiom of Infinity, suggesting broad acceptance, not rejection, of actual infinity.
I agree with you jsfisher, we should not talk about acceptance or rejection of Actual Infinity, but about the understanding of the notion of Actual Infinity.
The first step in order to understand this notion is to ask: "What is Actual Infinity?"
My answer is:
Actual Infinity is the existence that is logically always true (tautological existence).
IZF, CZF or ZF are axiomatic frameworks about sets...
No. Look up the word enables. Oh, and previews.
The fact you are so careless with language says a lot.
It is not entirely different it is simply refined, and you simply do not accept this refining, so?You take a perfectly fine, well-understood concept of completeness and infinitely many as in, for example, the set of integers, and you decide you can redefine it to mean something entirely different.[/I].
It is not entirely different it is simply refined, and you simply do not accept this refining, so?
Unlike you, jsfisher, I explicitly define Actual Infinity and Non-actual Infinity in terms of existence, by using Logic:It is entirely different,
Unlike you, jsfisher, I explicitly define Actual Infinity and Non-actual Infinity in terms of existence, by using Logic:
Actual Infinity is the existence that is logically always true (tautological existence).
Unlike you, jsfisher, I explicitly define Actual Infinity and Non-actual Infinity in terms of existence, by using Logic
...
In other words....
Your used reasoning is not sufficient in order to distinguish between tautological existence and non-tautological existence, so?Redefinition of established terminology is not within you purview.
A singleton has cardinality 1, for example {|{}|} or {|{x}|} or {|x|} (where by ZF x is a set).
Notations (or their absence) are used in order to express notions.You don't get to redefine established notation, either.
Redefinition of orthodox terminology is not within the scope of orthodox terminology, so?Redefinition of established terminology is not within you purview.
Any set, including the set of integers, is the result of the linkage between two level of existence, where one level is logically tautological existence, and the other level is logically non-tautological existence.You take a perfectly fine, well-understood concept of completeness and infinitely many as in, for example, the set of integers, and you decide you can redefine it to mean something entirely different.[/I].
Any set, including the set of integers, is the result of the linkage between two level of existence, where one level is logically tautological existence, and the other level is logically non-tautological existence.
The use of these two levels of existence is clearly shown in ZF axiomatic framework
jsfisher, from your orthodox standpoint the best you can get about http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10039964&postcount=3903 is indeed gibberish.Or so you claim. Corrupting language is not an acceptable method for establishing your claim.
So clearly, in fact, that you are completely unable to show where these levels exist in ZF. Instead, you simply reiterate your claim, or re-post links to previous claim reiterations, or both. Never do you actually show anything other than a baseless claim infused with gibberish.
"There exists a set X (this is the part that uses set's platonic level of existence) such that (this is the part that uses set's non-platonic level of existence (the level of members, which defines set's identity, but not set's platonic level of existence)) {} is a member of X and, whenever a set y is a member of X, then Sis also a member of X."
"There exists a set X (this is the part that uses set's platonic level of existence) such that (this is the part that uses set's non-platonic level of existence (the level of members, which defines set's identity, but not set's platonic level of existence)) {} is a member of X and, whenever a set y is a member of X, then Sis also a member of X."
This is my last post to you on this subject.Still waiting for the citation that shows exactly your quote.
doronshadmi said:"There exists a set X (this is (a) part of the axiom) such that (this is (b) part of the axiom) {} is a member of X and, whenever a set y is a member of X, then Sis also a member of X."
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zermelo–Fraenkel_set_theory#7._Axiom_of_infinity )
... there exists a set X such that the empty set Ø is a member of X and, whenever a set y is a member of X, then Sis also a member of X.