Feminist Bullies Tearing the Video Game Industry Apart

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Re: When will men be men again?

Maybe when you put down the controller, and climb out of your treehouse.
 
lomiller said:
This seems more of a case someone throwing grenades to try and evoke a negative response. Some people out of the hundreds of millions with access to the internet will bite. This does not suggest any larger problem.
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Explain this. A woman announces that she will make a series of youtube videos, discussing negative tropes about women in video games.

In response, a number of men (and some women) threaten to rape and kill her.

And this is her fault.

Um...how?

Again, some of the games she is discussing, are games I love to play. And I have also noticed the tropes in those games, and shrugged them off.

What is the issue here, aside from the threats?
 
Cleon said:
You're really going to blame her for the death/rape threats she received?

What about the death threats sent to David Futrelle? Were those his fault, or hers? I mean, since clearly they're not the fault of the people sending them.

I guess whether there's a problem or not depends on whether you see threats of bodily harm as a problem, or the "problem" of women speaking out.
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Nice strawman, but I never said anything about the people sending these threats not being responsible for their own action.

What I said is that IMO she went fishing for people who would respond this way because her arguments as presented don’t stand on their own merits. Again, IMO, she is doing this because ironically playing the victim is an easier way to gain support than actually making a nuanced argument.
 
Checkmite said:
The spectrum you describe certainly exists; but I think it would be tough to make a convincing argument that there is equal distribution of games across it - or even a nice centralized bell curve.
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I don't see how you can say that when in a large percentage of games where you can have a choice between a male or female character, choosing one or another is no more then a cosmetic difference. There's oftenly not even any difference in stats unless the two choices happen to be different job classes, and female avatars giving male soldiers commands (like in an RPG) raises no more comment then if that avatar was male. It could be argued that it makes the game play worse to have male/female avatars so equivalent.

Checkmite said:
If it's the case that a majority of females in games are of the damsel motif, a relative handful of titles with strong and independent female leads on the other end doesn't square the see-saw.
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Except that is largely not the case. And even if it was, you can do interesting things with the damsel-in-distress theme if you're clever.

Checkmite said:
But of course, gamer attitudes are a legitimate topic of discussion; I'm not sure why so many are in a hurry to dismiss or minimize that debate.
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Because the debate is a non-issue.

Tony said:
None of the games I play rely on or even feature the damsel-in-distress trope. From my subjective experience, the amount of games that have strong female characters far out number the ones that don't.
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That has been my experience well, and sometimes it comes off as a bit forced.
 
lomiller said:
What I said is that IMO she went fishing for people who would respond this way because her arguments as presented don’t stand on their own merits. Again, IMO, she is doing this because ironically playing the victim is an easier way to gain support than actually making a nuanced argument.
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You are way off-base, here. She was getting this kind of attention ever since her project was announced, before there was any content or argument to be presented.

There was a huge community falling all over itself to make her into a victim. She didn't ask for it.
 
Tony said:
These don't support your claim.

1. Video games are more than console games.
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You're right, they're also games like Candy Crush and other mobile or social media games, whose female players vastly outnumber male players.

Which is why last year 97 million people were playing it, while only 14.5 million units of Call of Duty: Ghosts were sold (only 60% of the sales of the previous installment).
 
Mudcat said:
I don't see how you can say that when in a large percentage of games where you can have a choice between a male or female character, choosing one or another is no more then a cosmetic difference. There's oftenly not even any difference in stats unless the two choices happen to be different job classes, and female avatars giving male soldiers commands (like in an RPG) raises no more comment then if that avatar was male.
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Which kind of makes Ubisoft's reasoning for cutting female protagonists in their Assassin's Creed game ring kind of hollow.
 
In my experience female characters in games are what teenage boys imagine them to be rather than being real female characters.
 
A'isha said:
You're right.
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Yes, I am.

they're also games like Candy Crush and other mobile or social media games, whose female players vastly outnumber male players.
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I hope you realize that this goes against your narrative.

Which is why last year 97 million people were playing it, while only 14.5 million units of Call of Duty: Ghosts were sold (only 60% of the sales of the previous installment).
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So, which is more likely. Is Call of Duty sales declining because of the lack of woman, or have gamers wised up to the fact that Call of Duty has regurgitated the same content over and over and over? I stopped playing Call of Duty 3 years ago for that very reason.
 
A'isha said:
Which kind of makes Ubisoft's reasoning for cutting female protagonists in their Assassin's Creed game ring kind of hollow.
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In Thief 1 and Thief 2 there was an even split between male and female City Watch, Hammerites and Mechanists.

Thief 3 which was developed for the Xbox got rid of all the female NPCs apart from a few token 'background' characters and the cliche 'Evil Witch' character that was the 'Evil overlord'
 
Mumbles said:
Explain this. A woman announces that she will make a series of youtube videos, discussing negative tropes about women in video games.

In response, a number of men (and some women) threaten to rape and kill her.

And this is her fault.

Um...how?

Again, some of the games she is discussing, are games I love to play. And I have also noticed the tropes in those games, and shrugged them off.

What is the issue here, aside from the threats?
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I certainly don’t support or condone any of these responses, but at what point did these responses make her position right?

Again the real question here isn’t whether she could bait some people to behave badly but whether there is some larger social problem and the actual arguments she has made in this direction are weak.
 
Tony said:
I hope you realize that this goes against your narrative.
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Uh, no...that's the point of my narrative. Candy Crush is targeted at a broad audience, women and men alike, and it has a playerbase of nearly 100 million.

Call of Duty is targeted at a specific subset of the male gamer audience, and it has a playerbase one fifth the size.
 
Tony said:
So, which is more likely. Is Call of Duty sales declining because of the lack of woman, or have gamers wised up to the fact that Call of Duty has regurgitated the same content over and over and over? I stopped playing Call of Duty 3 years ago for that very reason.
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Where do the games that are nothing but the same content over and over fit in, here? MOBAs seem to have distinct problems with female players, female characters, and new content, but are growing in popularity.
 
A'isha said:
Uh, no...that's the point of my narrative.
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Move those goal posts.

Candy Crush is targeted at a broad audience, women and men alike, and it has a playerbase of nearly 100 million.

Call of Duty is targeted at a specific subset of the male gamer audience, and it has a playerbase one fifth the size.
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Or it could be because Candy Crush is a free-cheap casual puzzle game that can be played on multiple devices and requires no special skill while Call of Duty is ~$65, can only be played on a console, has a learning curve and hasn't really done anything new in about 5 years, but don't let things like facts get in the way of your confirmation bias.
 
Tony said:
Move those goal posts.
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What on Earth are you talking about? That's been my point all the way back since this post.

Or it could be because Candy Crush is a free-cheap casual puzzle game that can be played on multiple devices and requires no special skill while Call of Duty is ~$65, can only be played on a console, has a learning curve and hasn't really done anything new in about 5 years, but don't let things like facts get in the way of your confirmation bias.
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Okay then. Let's take The Sims. Three games, over 175 million units sold (by comparison, all of the Call of Duty games added together since the first one was released in 2003 have sold 139 million). 65% female playerbase.
 
Cleon said:
Of course, Breitbart and Co are losing their **** over this bit of news. Anita Sarkeesian bullied some poor, innocent men into sending her death threats.
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There is a case to be made that she made those threats herself. I'm not au fait enough with twitter to really assess the likelihood or otherwise of that assertion, although I do know enough to know that it's not something that anybody can say for sure, but there are some factors which seem a little suspicious.

Cleon said:
Anita is a gamer.
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She certainly claims to be now, but there is evidence that this might not be the whole truth. I think the video I'm about to post goes too far with what it's saying and the conclusions it draws, but I post it simply because it contains the footage of her claiming not to be a gamer and, in fact, not to like video games:

 
A'isha said:
What on Earth are you talking about? That's been my point all the way back since this post.
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I'm talking about you making a claim and then backing away from it. Video game sales are not declining, nor can the decline in console sales be linked to the problem you describe.

Let's take The Sims. Three games, over 175 million units sold (by comparison, all of the Call of Duty games added together since the first one was released in 2003 have sold 139 million). 65% female playerbase.
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So? I have never denied that woman can't, or don't play games nor have I denied that they can make-up a significant segment of gamers. I'm only scrutinizing your claim that a male centered segment of the market is necessarily going to decline for the reason that it is male centered and/or because of the alleged "problem" you described. Notice that I have not made any claim about women in gaming nor have I claimed that games that appeal to women or have strong female characters are bad or are losers.

But lets look at the Sims. It is a PC game that, again, doesn't require the complex controls of a console controller like Call of Duty, it has been out longer than Call of Duty and it has been better longer than Call of Duty, the game-play is fundamentally different than Call of Duty ect. So it still isn't an apples to apples comparison. Can you compare a female oriented or female appealing first person shooter to Call of Duty (which itself may or may not appeal to females)?
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
There is a case to be made that she made those threats herself. I'm not au fait enough with twitter to really assess the likelihood or otherwise of that assertion, although I do know enough to know that it's not something that anybody can say for sure, but there are some factors which seem a little suspicious.
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That strikes me as an extremely weak basis for speculating that she made up the threats. And as the link about the threats David Futrelle received that catsmate1 posted shows, she wouldn't have needed to fake anything. She's been getting threats and other harassment since before she ever recorded her first video.

She certainly claims to be now, but there is evidence that this might not be the whole truth. I think the video I'm about to post goes too far with what it's saying and the conclusions it draws, but I post it simply because it contains the footage of her claiming not to be a gamer and, in fact, not to like video games:

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That's thunderf00t's video with the chopped clip of her 2010 Santa Monica College talk, isn't it? I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove, since that was three years before her first video was released, and she's certainly immersed herself in games and game culture in order to produce her videos (she herself says "I've had to learn a lot about video games in the process of making this), because they were done from a media criticism perspective and not a hobbyist gamer perspective.
 
Ten years ago, I wasn't much of a gamer. Now, I'm a frequent gamer. It's this weird thing called "change" that happens over time...
 
Tony said:
I'm talking about you making a claim and then backing away from it. Video game sales are not declining, nor can the decline in console sales be linked to the problem you describe.
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Video game software sales are declining, and have been for a while.

I'm only scrutinizing your claim that a male centered segment of the market is necessarily going to decline for the reason that it is male centered and/or because of the alleged "problem" you described.
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It's not going to decline solely because it's male centered, but because it's appealing to an ever-more-specific subset and subsubset and subsubsubset of the audience. To put it another way, it's the same reason the Republican Party is going to lose elections because they're focusing on the votes of an increasingly-exclusive Tea Party electorate, and not to the wider voter base.

But lets look at the Sims. It is a PC game that, again, doesn't require the complex controls of a console controller like Call of Duty,
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Yes, just a complicated installation process and set of keyboard and mouse commands. And that's even before you get to mods.

By contrast, Call of Duty involves putting a disc in and pushing a button, and the "complex controls" are on a controller with eight buttons.

it has been out longer than Call of Duty and it has been better longer than Call of Duty, the game-play is fundamentally different than Call of Duty ect. So it still isn't an apples to apples comparison.
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And yet the industry is rushing to put out Call of Duty clone after Call of Duty clone, all chasing that same male-subset audience, while no one is making Sims-like games.
 
A'isha said:
Video game software sales are declining, and have been for a while.

...snip...
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Just depends on how you define "sales" - "free to play" distorts the figures if you use definitions from just 5 or 6 years ago, i.e. single payment for a game. Most analysts now look at how many people are playing games and the revenue stream this produces (or they fantasize it will produce) and the figures show that the number of "gamers" and revenues have been massively increasing, especially over the last 3 years.

Not arguing that the analysts are right to use these metrics but that is the reason that the valuation of companies such as King are stupidly high. And it means that the publicly traded companies try to please their masters by following the model the analysts want to see.
 
Darat said:
Just depends on how you define "sales" - "free to play" distorts the figures if you use definitions from just 5 or 6 years ago, i.e. single payment for a game. Most analysts now look at how many people are playing games and the revenue stream this produces (or they fantasize it will produce) and the figures show that the number of "gamers" and revenues have been massively increasing, especially over the last 3 years.

Not arguing that the analysts are right to use these metrics but that is the reason that the valuation of companies such as King are stupidly high. And it means that the publicly traded companies try to please their masters by following the model the analysts want to see.
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That's part of what I'm getting at, though...console games targeted at a subset of male gamers are declining in sales, while multiplatform games targeted at a broad audience are thriving.
 
I Am The Scum said:
You are way off-base, here. She was getting this kind of attention ever since her project was announced, before there was any content or argument to be presented.

There was a huge community falling all over itself to make her into a victim. She didn't ask for it.
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I don't believe it. If you don't want to look like a victim, you don't publicly post the messages you've been sent and talk about them all the time, which is what she did. She shined a bright light on the negative attention she was getting, received massive amounts of sympathy, and made over $158,000 (for a Kickstarter with a goal of only $6000).

She claims to hate the "damsel in distress" archetype, but it seems to have paid off for her very well.
 
Cleon said:
Ten years ago, I wasn't much of a gamer. Now, I'm a frequent gamer. It's this weird thing called "change" that happens over time...
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It's more like:
- "I've been playing video games since I was about 5 years old."
- "Here's a photo of me age 10, playing video games. So, as you see, I've been playing games quite a while."
-jump to 2010: "I'm doing this thing, but it's about video games and it's not exactly a fandom (?), I'm not a fan of video games, I actually had to learn a lot about video games in the process of making this. <shows a video mashup> video games... I would love to play video games, but I don't want to go around shooting people and ripping off their heads, it's just gross, so... hence this is my response to that [presumably pointing to some mashup of a soundtrack and clips from first person shooters]"
- "I'm a gamer, I love games, I'm a fan of video games."

Make of that what you will. I guess it's possible that from age 5 playing a lot of video games taught her nothing and made her only dislike video games until after 2010 when she found new love for video games.
 
lomiller said:
I certainly don’t support or condone any of these responses, but at what point did these responses make her position right?

Again the real question here isn’t whether she could bait some people to behave badly but whether there is some larger social problem and the actual arguments she has made in this direction are weak.
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...why are you characterizing her actions as "baiting"? Does every time people like Thunderfoot post a video on youtube, are they baiting people? If you have a unique insight into her perspective and reasons for posting the video please feel free to share it. But in the absence of any evidence that she is posting the video to bait people I think its best we leave the alleged motivations out of the discussion.

So do you think her position is "right?" Or do you think her position is "wrong?" Can you explain what you think her position is?
 
Axiom_Blade said:
I don't believe it.
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...why not?

If you don't want to look like a victim, you don't publicly post the messages you've been sent and talk about them all the time, which is what she did. She shined a bright light on the negative attention she was getting, received massive amounts of sympathy, and made over $158,000 (for a Kickstarter with a goal of only $6000).

She claims to hate the "damsel in distress" archetype, but it seems to have paid off for her very well.
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Why should she be concerned with your perception of her? I don't think she looks like a victim at all, and I don't think publicly posting messages of hate and abuse that have been sent to you is the act of someone with a victim mentality.

Do you think that people who get sent messages of hate and abuse should just suck it up and take it? Is that an attitude that kids that get bullied at school should take? I don't understand your attitude at all.

If she didn't post those messages there would be people claiming she is a liar, or she made it up, which is precisely what is happening now anyway.

Here is a Kickstarter campaign that might interest you.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad

The guy made potato salad. He asked for $10.00. He ended up with $55,000. Is he a victim as well? What is your opinion on what he did?
 
banquetbear said:
Why should she be concerned with your perception of her?
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Perception is what her fame is built on.

I don't think she looks like a victim at all, and I don't think publicly posting messages of hate and abuse that have been sent to you is the act of someone with a victim mentality.
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What would be?

Do you think that people who get sent messages of hate and abuse should just suck it up and take it?
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I think they should block and report as necessary.

Is that an attitude that kids that get bullied at school should take?
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Well, real life is not the same as the Internet. You certainly can't "block" or "ignore" real world bullies very well, but you can report them to authorities (e.g. your parents, school authorities).

If she didn't post those messages there would be people claiming she is a liar, or she made it up, which is precisely what is happening now anyway.
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Yet, she continues to post them, anyway? No. I think you're working from a false premise.

The guy made potato salad. He asked for $10.00. He ended up with $55,000. Is he a victim as well? What is your opinion on what he did?
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Neither of them are victims, really. They both saw a market and found a way to exploit it.
 
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Axiom_Blade said:
Perception is what her fame is built on.
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...perception is what everyone everyone's fame is built on.

I asked, why should she be concerned about your perception of her? Are you somehow special? Representative of something?

What would be?
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It wouldn't be making public abusive texts and messages. And as I don't buy into the "victim mentality" way of thinking, I can't give you an example of what it would be.

I think they should block and report as necessary.
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I'm sure they are being blocked and reported as necessary. Whats wrong with posting them as well?

Well, real life is not the same as the Internet. You certainly can't "block" or "ignore" real world bullies very well, but you can report them to authorities (e.g. your parents, school authorities).
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The internet is the real world. Why do you think it isn't?

Yet, she continues to post them, anyway?
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And why shouldn't she? People are still accusing her of making things up. So why shouldn't she continue to post them? And even if they weren't, why shouldn't she post them anyway?

No. I think you're working from a false premise.
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I don't think I am at all. If you think I am, please feel to explain what that false premise is.

Neither of them are victims. They both saw a market and found a way to exploit it.
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If they both saw a "market" they would have both asked for more than $6000 and $10 respectively. The potato salad guy didn't see a market, he posted for a laugh. And people contributed to his kickstarter because they wanted to continue the joke. As for Anita: she needed $6000 to fund her project. There was no gun put to anyone's head when they decided to keep funding the project past its initial goal to where it ended up. There was no exploitation. If you want to take anything away from the Kickstarter: it doesn't show that people were "exploited." It shows that there are people out there that heard her message, either agreed with the message or wanted her message to be heard, so they contributed money. That is how crowd funding works. Its a pure form of funding: and you can't blame Anita for the actions of those who chose to contribute.
 
Cleon said:
Nobody's said "all gamers are sexist." Anita is a gamer. But there is a trend of really horrible sexism among gamer communities. Case in point: threats against her life.
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There is some question as to whether she is a gamer, and whether there were really threats against her life. She gave a talk at a university four years ago where she says she is not a fan of video games.



Sorry for annoying computer-generated talk--see about 1 minute in.

As for the death threats, this post claims that it is most likely that Anita faked them. Ten tweets in 3 minutes, the last of which Anita screen captured 12 seconds after it was posted.

BTW, I find the story about Zoe Quinn sleeping around to get positive reviews for her games more interesting.
 
Brainster said:
BTW, I find the story about Zoe Quinn sleeping around to get positive reviews for her games more interesting.
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...there is no evidence she "slept around for positive reviews." And to be honest I couldn't find anything more boring than someone else's sex life. Why are you interested in who someone else sleeps with?
 
A'isha said:
Which is why last year 97 million people were playing it, while only 14.5 million units of Call of Duty: Ghosts were sold (only 60% of the sales of the previous installment).
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The reason for the decline of Call of Duty has to do more with the fact that it's a continual rehashing of previous games then whether it was targeted towards a wider audience. There was only so long they could release the same game over and over again before gamers, both male and female, got bored and moved on to something else.

A'isha said:
Which kind of makes Ubisoft's reasoning for cutting female protagonists in their Assassin's Creed game ring kind of hollow.
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Ubisoft is a crap developer/publisher anyhow, but their stated reason for that was utter BS. There are a list of games, including most of the Elder Scrolls franchise, in which the females don't move that differently from their male counterparts and still are successful.

In any case, I think my point was a pretty good one.

In RPGs, like Skyrim for example, your choices are supposed to be important to the narrative of the game. And the most important decision you'll ever make is made before you've spoken to the first villager or picked up your novice gear. To whit, "Who is your character?"

In Skyrim, again, Nords are supposed to be misogynists who are distrustful of outsiders in general, elves in particular, and don't particularly care for mages. And yet the game will completely ignore the fact that you rolled a female dunmer that's a necromancer in the employ of the Dark Brotherhood. You would think the decision to play a gender/race/occupation that the Stormcloaks don't like would cause them to discriminate against your character even if she proved herself an invaluable ally and yet that very first choice you ever made in the game isn't considered at all.

You can join their ranks with little fuss, and become their champion with no comment. So I put it to you, is equalization a good thing or bad thing in this situation?
 
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A'isha said:
It's the same thing that's driving the slow death of the American comic book market, where the Big Two can somehow manage to make movies and TV shows like Guardians of the Galaxy and Teen Titans that appeal to a broad audience that spans genders and ages, but can only seem to make comic books that appeal almost exclusively to a small male audience.
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http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

The American comic market is increasing in value annually by rather a lot.

A'isha said:
She's been getting threats and other harassment since before she ever recorded her first video.
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Her first video or her first video about games?

That's thunderf00t's video with the chopped clip of her 2010 Santa Monica College talk, isn't it? I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove, since that was three years before her first video was released, and she's certainly immersed herself in games and game culture in order to produce her videos (she herself says "I've had to learn a lot about video games in the process of making this), because they were done from a media criticism perspective and not a hobbyist gamer perspective.
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Her claim in her very first video games video is that she is a gamer, loves games and always has done. She claimed herself as an authority and furthermore as a fan, so the appearance of a video just a few years before in which she not only states she doesn't play games but that she even finds them revolting doesn't help her case.

A'isha said:
That's part of what I'm getting at, though...console games targeted at a subset of male gamers are declining in sales, while multiplatform games targeted at a broad audience are thriving.
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Niche games have a smaller market share than multiplatform games aimed at a wider audience?
 
Mudcat said:
The reason for the decline of Call of Duty has to do more with the fact that it's a continual rehashing of previous games then whether it was targeted towards a wider audience. There was only so long they could release the same game over and over again before gamers, both male and female, got bored and moved on to something else.
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And even before then, as I noted, it sold less well than The Sims games, which had a broader audience. So obviously even discounting the "it's a rehash" factor, focusing on a narrow audience is less beneficial to the bottom line than focusing on a broader audience.

In RPGs, like Skyrim for example, your choices are supposed to be important to the narrative of the game. And the most important decision you'll ever make is made before you've spoken to the first villager or picked up your novice gear. To whit, "Who is your character?"

In Skyrim, again, Nords are supposed to be misogynists who are distrustful of outsiders in general, elves in particular, and don't particularly care for mages. And yet the game will completely ignore the fact that you rolled a female dunmer that's a necromancer in the employ of the Dark Brotherhood. You would think the decision to play a gender/race/occupation that the Stormcloaks don't like would cause them to discriminate against your character even if she proved herself an invaluable ally and yet that very first choice you ever made in the game isn't considered at all.

You can join their ranks with little fuss, and become their champion with no comment. So I put it to you, is equalization a good thing or bad thing in this situation?
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I'm not sure what point you think you're making, considering that playing a male dunmer necromancer in the employ of the Dark Brotherhood doesn't change the Stormcloaks' attitude toward you any more than playing a female dunmer necromancer in the employ of the Dark Brotherhood does. Obviously if there's a problem with player choice vis a vis character breaking immersion in Skyrim, it runs a lot deeper than the male vs. female dichotomy.

Me, I'm simply happy that I can make a female character, and have capable female Followers if I want, and the game gives me that choice and doesn't penalize me. This is a game with elves and dragons and magic swords and ****..."realism" is obviously waaaay the hell down on the list of priorities.
 
squealpiggy said:
http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

The American comic market is increasing in value annually by rather a lot.
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That includes trade paperbacks, and even notes that Diamond has fudged the numbers somewhat, because "what Diamond has reported from year to year has changed" and therefore "figures are not available for every category for every year".

Her first video or her first video about games?
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If you think there's a difference, why do you think there's a difference, hmm? What is it about "video games" that generated such a vitriolic response when she turned her media-criticism video series towards them?

Her claim in her very first video games video is that she is a gamer, loves games and always has done. She claimed herself as an authority and furthermore as a fan, so the appearance of a video just a few years before in which she not only states she doesn't play games but that she even finds them revolting doesn't help her case.
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That's...not exactly what she said.

Niche games have a smaller market share than multiplatform games aimed at a wider audience?
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And the AAA developers are spending money and effort chasing that smaller market share to the near-exclusion of that wider audience.

You know, exactly like I've been saying.
 
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Brainster said:
As for the death threats, this post claims that it is most likely that Anita faked them. Ten tweets in 3 minutes, the last of which Anita screen captured 12 seconds after it was posted.
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Twitter does this thing where if somebody puts your Twitter name in their post, you get notified about it immediately. It doesn't strike me as unusual at all that that any Twitter user would be disturbed by the nature of the first few initial tweets and click the name to see the rest, and quickly screenshot such material before it can be erased. If the person who started the account began tweeting while Sarkeesian was logged into Twitter, she would've seen the tweets immediately. No skullduggery or Truthy conspiracism necessary.
 
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