Sol88
Philosopher
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2009
- Messages
- 8,437
So your response to people presenting science at a conference is to insult them and the science, Sol88!
Insult??? what your inteligence?? sorry mate, shall we speak slower and use little words?
So your response to people presenting science at a conference is to insult them and the science, Sol88!
I have a feeling that we are going to see lots of idiotic comments on the Thunderbolts web site from electric comet proponents after the end of the converafernce, Sol88. Which you and Haig will probably blindly parrot here. They willI have a feeling we are going to have lots to discuss by the end of the week.
I have a feeling that we are going to see lots of idiotic comments on the Thunderbolts web site from electric comet proponents after the end of the converafernce, Sol88. Which you and Haig will probably blindly parrot here. They will
- take every mention of electromagnetism as support for the dumb idea that comets are rock.
- think that any unknowns are support for the invalid electric comet idea, i.e. God of the gaps argument.
- think that anything they do not understand is support for the invalid electric comet idea (argument from ignorance).
- think that anything that the scientific model does not explain is support for the invalid electric comet idea (fallacy of false dichotomy).
Abstract
Although the Moon and asteroids are often thought of as having relatively dormant environments, in fact the Moon at least is very electrically active. The surfaces of airless bodies are directly exposed to solar UV and X-rays, as well as solar wind plasma and energetic particles. This bombardment creates a complex electric field and plasma environment, with the surface typically charging positive in sunlight and negative in shadow, and surface potentials varying over orders of magnitude in response to changing solar illumination and plasma conditions. We present the first efforts to derive the exact magnitude of the nightside lunar surface electric potential from orbit (which involves correcting for spacecraft charging effects), rather than the lower limits which have been derived before. We then compare these measurements to simple theoretical models and other predictions for lunar surface charging in shadow during quiet times. In addition, we present a complete survey of lunar surface charging (utilizing data from Apollo surface observations and Lunar Prospector orbital observations, in concert with theory and modeling) for all lunar locations and solar and plasma conditions, in order to demonstrate the wide range of charging conditions that can occur on airless bodies. By validating surface charging models for the Moon, we can gain confidence in the application of these models to other airless bodies such as asteroids, moons, and Mercury. It is important to have confidence in these theoretical tools, so we can apply them to problems such as dust levitation and transport - which may be of fundamental importance
And the response to my post is to question my intelligence, Sol88Insult??? what your inteligence?? sorry mate, shall we speak slower and use little words?
The insult to the scientists is "make up": Trusting a scientific theory such as the comet model without credible evidence is not what competent scientist (or rational people for that matter!) do.[Will they say the mainstream model is DEAD or make up more male bovine excrement.
Soll88, Please read what you quote:
I have a feeling that we are going to see lots of idiotic comments on the Thunderbolts web site from electric comet proponents after the end of the converafernce, Sol88. Which you and Haig will probably blindly parrot here. They will
- take every mention of electromagnetism as support for the dumb idea that comets are rock.
- think that any unknowns are support for the invalid electric comet idea, i.e. God of the gaps argument.
- think that anything they do not understand is support for the invalid electric comet idea (argument from ignorance).
- think that anything that the scientific model does not explain is support for the invalid electric comet idea (fallacy of false dichotomy).
and how this applies to the standard mainstream theory of asteroids, moons, Mercury, and other airless, rocky objectsAlthough the Moon and asteroids are often thought of as having relatively dormant environments, in fact the Moon at least is very electrically active. The surfaces of airless bodies are directly exposed to solar UV and X-rays, as well as solar wind plasma and energetic particles. This bombardment creates a complex electric field and plasma environment, with the surface typically charging positive in sunlight and negative in shadow, and surface potentials varying over orders of magnitude in response to changing solar illumination and plasma conditions. We present the first efforts to derive the exact magnitude of the nightside lunar surface electric potential from orbit (which involves correcting for spacecraft charging effects), rather than the lower limits which have been derived before. We then compare these measurements to simple theoretical models and other predictions for lunar surface charging in shadow during quiet times. In addition, we present a complete survey of lunar surface charging (utilizing data from Apollo surface observations and Lunar Prospector orbital observations, in concert with theory and modeling) for all lunar locations and solar and plasma conditions, in order to demonstrate the wide range of charging conditions that can occur on airless bodies. By validating surface charging models for the Moon, we can gain confidence in the application of these models to other airless bodies such as asteroids, moons, and Mercury. It is important to have confidence in these theoretical tools, so we can apply them to problems such as dust levitation and transport - which may be of fundamental importance both at the Moon and on asteroids.
And the response to my post is to question my intelligence, Sol88!
Read what you wrote
The insult to the scientists is "make up": Trusting a scientific theory such as the comet model without credible evidence is not what competent scientist (or rational people for that matter!) do.
The insult to the science is "male bovine excrement".
Soll88, Please read what you quote:
Please read Surface Charging on Airless Bodies
and how this applies to the standard mainstream theory of asteroids, moons, Mercury, and other airless, rocky objects!
No one knows whether this relatively new analysis (2007) may or may not apply to comets. There are hints - the ice and dust "dunes" on 67P suggest some form of ice and dust movement.
as much as I fail to understand why mainstream are so reluctant to embrace EM as the dominate force in the Universe...
"Gravitational systems are the 'ashes' of prior electrical systems." Hannes Alfven
Gezz Belz, what straight question? This thread has gone nuts with RC spamming the board !Haig, are you going to ever answer my straight questions ?
This is first in a series of Rosetta Mission Updates with Wal Thornhill and Dave Talbott. In this brief video, Wal offers a preliminary assessment of the Rosetta Mission to Comet 67P
Wow - way still not to understand what you read Sol88and how this applies to the standard mainstream thery of asteroids, moons, Mercury, and other airless, rocky objects!
!For them, water must always be "carried" or "brought"--but this is a perpetual loop conundrum for them: What brought the water to the comets and asteroids?
Therefore the theory is not believable. It is further not believable when considering that myriad celestial bodies have known water on them such as Enceladus and Europa, others. So, again, what brought their water? And how can tiny rocks magically seed every planet and icy moon?
Where is the mechanism for this and where is the evidence for this massive bombardment activity? But there is a deeper conundrum: Why did the trillions of comets and asteroids discriminate with Europa, missing Ganymede? Did they have a group meeting and decide to not visit Io either? Why did the rock swarm gang up on poor Enceladus but not want to visit Iapetus?
Gezz, Haig:Gezz Belz, what straight question? ...snipped usual Thunderbolts delusions...
Rock comets are asteroids within the orbit of Mercury having dust blown off of them.I'm sorry: what do rock comets have to do with the electric universe model ? Your quote does not answer that question.
Apparently you are content to parrot Thunderbolts ignorance and delusions, Haig....usual Thunderbolts delusions snipped
There only ice and dust on comets and so any dunes have to be made up of ice and dust, Sol88Ice dunes?
Gezz Belz, what straight question?
It turns out to be a web page pointing to fantasies, delusions and lies in a Thunderbolts video, Haig.It's ALL about evidence ... and here ...
Rosetta Mission Update | The Rocky Comet
There only ice and dust on comets and so any dunes have to be made up of ice and dust, Sol88.
Of course as anyone who has ever been in show and seen similar patterns knows, this is "wind blown" ice particles and dust particles that have formed dunes.
on wind, ionic wind, coronal wind or electric wind are expressions formerly used to describe the resulting localized neutral flow induced by electrostatic forces linked to corona discharge arising at the tips of some sharp conductors (such as points or blades) submitted to high-voltages relative to ground. Modern implementations belong to the family of electrohydrodynamic (EHD) devices.
That dog must be laughing at your lack of cursory research skills.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_dune
That is a fantasy about the ELECTRIC COMET and ignorance about ion winds, Sol88Ahh ...snipped fantasy...
! . Which reminds me to add the latest evidence against the electric comet idea (thank you Haig Ice dunes on a comet LSSBB?
statement by Reality Check.and how this applies to the standard mainstream theory of asteroids, moons, Mercury, and other airless, rocky objects !
No one knows whether this relatively new analysis (2007) may or may not apply to comets. There are hints - the ice and dust "dunes" on 67P suggest some form of ice and dust movement.
Why not, specifically?
Please note, your inability to imagine why they are there does not count as proof.
Also note, YOU were laughing at the notion of ICE DUNES. Now you have moved the goal posts.
In my own words ??? now don't you go all JT on me . I'll use any words or papers/articles I choose to get the idea or point across.How do rocky comets relate to the EU theory ? And don't like to a paper or someone else's work this time : explain it in your own words.
Everyone has heard of "comets"--icy visitors from the outer solar system that sprout long tails of gas and dust when they come close to the sun. But what is a rock comet?
A "rock comet" is a new kind of object being discussed by astronomers. It is, essentially, an asteroid that comes very close to the sun--so close that solar heating scorches dusty debris right off its rocky surface. Rock comets could thus grow comet-like tails that produce meteor showers on Earth.
3200 Phaethon has an unusual orbit that brings it deep inside the orbit of Mercury. When this happens, it brightens and sprouts a little tail in mimicry of a comet. A team of astronomers led by Dave Jewitt of UCLA have been monitoring 3200 Phaethon using NASA's twin STEREO probes. They think that intense solar heating blasts the asteroid's rocky surface, causing 3200 Phaethon to shed meteoroids like embers spitting off a log in a roaring campfire.
So, according to NASA ... The “rock comet” hypothesis is compelling but they need the thing to be more active maybe in the past.So, according to the STEREO observations, 3200 Phaethon does behave like a rock comet.
The “rock comet” hypothesis is compelling, but Jewett and Li point out a problem: The amount of dust 3200 Phaethon ejected during its sun-encounter added a paltry 0.01% to the mass of the Geminid debris stream, not enough to keep the debris stream stocked up with meteoroids for the annual display of shooting stars. 3200 Phaethon is not spewing enough dust to account for the Geminids.
Could the rock comet have been more active in the past....? "We just don't know," says Cooke.
Thunderbolts said:Well, I don't know about you, but that is just ... amazing. A rocky asteroid decides it had enough, takes the plunge, gets its rocky dust 'blown' off its rocky surface by scorching heat (!), and like the little rocky caterpillar that it was transforms in a tailed mimicry of an cometary butterfly, sprinkling fairy fireballs and magical meteors over Earth.
My hats of to the astronomers. ***stands up and gives a one-man-ovation***
ps. Its probably just the way this article is popularised, the paper about such things must be far more intricate...it must be.
Obviously you just don't understand all the careful research, the horrendous number-crunching and rigorous scientific reasoning it took to come up with the meticulously worded explanation that it: "sprouts a little tail in mimicry of a comet", because "solar heating scorches dusty debris right off" ...
Haven't you ever burnt your toast, and thrown it across the room ?
This is an example of paradigm creep. Moving toward the EC model without any acknowledgement. When the EC model is finally accepted, of course no credit will be given and they will say "we knew that for quite some time."
Quote:
"Outbursts from comets at great distances from the Sun seem to be correlated with a sudden change in the solar 'wind' plasma environment due to a solar storm. The point about sudden comet outbursts is that we are dealing with a sudden, discontinuous process of plasma discharge - a switch from dark current mode to normal glow mode. It is a complex surface phenomenon that cannot be predicted. The best we can do is to say that the passage of a sudden change in the solar wind is the most likely time to see a flareup."
Originally Posted by thunderbolts
The sun had been electrically active in the days before the "explosion". Upon investigation of data from the ACE satellite, see this movie or this graph, Michael Mozina noticed that there was a large spike in the density of the solar wind on October 22 at 19:45, two days before the infamous flareup. This spike likely switched the comet into normal glow mode and allowed it to grow. Once in normal glow mode, the plasma coma does not require a sustained voltage to maintain that mode.
Published on 14 Dec 2014
The Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko. Perhaps the strangest solar system object ever observed up close in the course of the space age. It was the target of the Rosetta probe, whose 10-year journey began in March 2004, under the sponsorship of the European Space Agency. The probe is now orbiting the nucleus of 67P, and investigators hope to confirm the comet’s link to the very origins of our solar system. In this brief overview of the Rosetta Mission, David Talbott begins a series of reports on the continuing surprises facing comet theorists.
So, where does this bring us now?
I think it might be a good idea to actually start a thread which discusses the actual mainstream model of comets, with all the "geo"logical and plasma physical processes that can take place.
The fact that we may not understand everything in the mainstream model is only to be expected, because we have only in-situ data from a few comets (Halley. Giacobini-Zinner, Grigg-Skjellerup, Wild, Churyumov-Gerasimenko). However, our models are developing constantly, especially now that we are "in orbit" around a comet and we get to see the development from very weakly active at arrival, to highly active as it comes closer and closer to the sun.
A non-negligible fraction of a Supermassive Black Hole's (SMBH) rest mass energy gets transported into extragalactic space by a remarkable process in jets which are incompletely understood. What are the physical processes which transport this energy? It is likely that the energy flows electromagnetically, rather than via a particle beam flux. The deduced electromagnetic fields may produce particles of energy as high as ∼1020 eV. The energetics of SMBH accretion disk models and the electromagnetic energy transfer imply that a SMBH should generate a 1018−1019 Amp\`eres current close to the black hole and its accretion disk. We describe the so far best observation-based estimate of the magnitude of the current flow along the axis of the jet extending from the nucleus of the active galaxy in 3C303. The current is measured to be I∼1018 Amp\`eres at ∼40 kpc away from the AGN. This indicates that organized current flow remains intact over multi-kpc distances. The electric current I transports electromagnetic power into free space, P=I2Z, where Z∼30 Ohms is related to the impedance of free space, and this points to the existence of cosmic electric circuit. The associated electric potential drop, V=IZ, is of the order of that required to generate Ultra High Energy Cosmic Rays (UHECR). We describe the analogy of electromagnetically dominated jets with transmission lines. High powered jets {\it in vacuo} can be understood by approximate analogy with a waveguide. The importance of inductance, impedance, and other laboratory electrical concepts are discussed in this context. To appear in Proc. 18th International Symposium on Very High Energy Cosmic Ray Interactions (ISVHECR2014), CERN,
In my own words ??? now don't you go all JT on me . I'll use any words or papers/articles I choose to get the idea or point across.
That is enough for me to confirm "How do rocky comets relate to the EU theory ?" but, I guess, NOT you Belz
How about ...It would've been faster for you to just type "I can't" or "I don't understand it enough to put it into my own words."
Sure it does Belz ... you just have to read it again ... to the end ... and think about itNone of what you've posted up to that point even mentions electricity, Haig. That's why I'm asking for an explanation by you.
That's a matter of opinion Belz I just knew you would't be happyYour efforts are pathetic.
Sure it does Belz ... you just have to read it again ... to the end ... and think about it![]()
That's a matter of opinion Belz
Electric Comets & Rock Comets ..... needs an ..... Electric Sun ..... needs an ..... Electric Universe / Plasma Cosmology
I'm not really sure what you mean, but yes, there does seem to be two fairly distinct approaches used in the posts by you, Haig, David Talbott, and paladin17. In very approximate terms:So no bearing on the Electric Comet then Jean Tate??? Mmmm.....you come across as though most EC proponents have got two heads.JeanTate said:Good morning, Sol88.
Quite recently, I wrote:
Seems appropriate; perhaps I should repeat it?
Can we return to discussion of the ech, please?
You started this thread, explicitly on "The Electric Comet theory". Yet you seem to spend much - perhaps most - of your time (as measured in words in your posts) on topics other than the ech.
Why is it apparently so hard for you to stay focused?
Perhaps "they" should/could/would/must/etc; perhaps "they" could care less about what Sol88 thinks.and while the mainstream acknowledge Dusty Plasmas why would they not take the next logical step??
When paladin17 and David Talbott did that, in many cases they were thanked, and the discussion continued on the ech.and
Everytime someone from the EC side brings up something relevent to the EC idea, we are accused of not staying focused...![]()
Your predictions are duly noted. And I myself hope that this week's AGU meeting will have a great deal of new material to discuss, and that it will be fun.My prediction....this weeks AGU meeting is gunna cause a stir and we'll have so much more "New" material to play some forum tennis with, it's goning to be fun.
I also predict, the standard mainstream model for comets and solar system formation are going to called into question.![]()
You need to do more than be SORRY ! How was I lying tusenfem ? I said :Sorry haig you are lying, I did point you to where you can find almost everything about the mainstream comet model. Yes "ALL" I did was point out books to you, that is where science can be found, in books and journals: the book by Krishna Swamy "the physics of comets" and the book by Festou, Keller & Weaver "Comets II".
I gave you credit for the books link it was and still is the fact that you don't STATE or GIVE LINKS to the mainstream model of comets. And STILL don'tI asked you to state or give links to the mainstream model of comets and you couldn't / wouldn't do it .... only hand waving ... WHY ? because it's a moving concept heading in the direction of the ELECTRIC COMET hypothesis.
ALL you cited were books (fair enough) but on-line in the 21st centuriy NASA has these as Comet Models ... HERE and HERE
This stuff might be your full time job but it isn't mine. I read books when I have time but having the time for that is rare these days. So, skim reading links and posting here on the run between my real work ... is it for now.tusenfem said:The fact that you cannot be bothered to look at books and rather have youtube vids is not my problem, but do not say that I did not deliver.
It's a bit of fun tuenfem. Show us a link to the latest mainstream comettusenfem said:The fact that you think that the mainstream model is a children's outreach to make their own paper-and-string model from NASA shows the disdain you have for real science.

Wrong !Remember if your can't Google it then it doesn't exist.
No, that's your out, there. You can't explain what the hell it means, think it's super-deep and stuff, and expect everyone to agree with you without having to actually make any sense out of it. Explain how they are related, or admit that you have no clue.
It really isn't.
So ?
Then why all the other planets have different D/H ratios? The 67P's deuterium content is very high (look at the picture), so in this case its orbit should be somewhere around Venus, I suppose?The scientific argument is that the D/H ratio should vary in the Kuiper belt and Oort cloud and that would be reflected in comet D/H ratios. I can guess why - maybe radiation pressure would push lighter H atoms further away than heavier D atoms.
My sources (like the mentioned data from ACE) tell that there is an electric current.the current due to the solar wind alone is zero. The solar wind is neutral. There are plenty of sources for this if you want to look them up.
Actual measurements suggest otherwise.The solar wind is electrically neutral and so is not an electric current.
Take a rock that is hollow inside and you can get almost any density value you want. That doesn't prove or disprove anything.paladin17, it looks like you should learn a basic fact about comets - their measured densities are ~5 times less than that of rock.
This means that the basic premise of comets being rock is wrong. Anything based on comets being rock is not science - it is fantasy.
I cannot agree with you. All the data suggest otherwise (see this, for example).The Solar System may have little or no bow shock. The bow shock is many AU outside of the region where comets start outgassing.
You need to do more than be SORRY ! How was I lying tusenfem ? I said :
I gave you credit for the books link it was and still is the fact that you don't STATE or GIVE LINKS to the mainstream model of comets. And STILL don't
You contradict yourself in the first two sentences of your post. You should apologise ! I never lied and to say so is abuse.
This stuff might be your full time job but it isn't mine. I read books when I have time but having the time for that is rare these days. So, skim reading links and posting here on the run between my real work ... is it for now.
This is just a bit of fun for me, does it show ?
It's a bit of fun tuenfem. Show us a link to the latest mainstream cometmodelhypothesis or haven't they cobbled it together yet ?