I challenge you: your best alternate to materialism

If Unity is the unbounded source of all bounded forms, it is naturally unbounded by contradiction or tautology, which are clearly the bounds of logic at the level of multiplicity.

So is the case about mental or physical phenomena, which are some bounded forms at the multiplicity level that is derived from Unity, but not vice versa.

Please look also at http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27823&p=269245#p269301 and http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27823&p=269245#p269052.

Thank you.

So Unity is without distinction (boundless) but is capable of making all distinctions (multiplicity). Are you not highjacking the Tao te Ching and other documents?

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
 
Yes, yes, we know all of this.
By using multiplicity reasoning you don't know this, simply because Unity is not some phenomenon.

But you're ignoring the bigger question.
You are ignoring the substance of multiplicity.

Has anyone even been so far as even to decide to use even to go look more like?
Again you take the wrong direction, Unity is the closest state of all possible phenomena.
 
By using multiplicity reasoning you don't know this, simply because Unity is not some phenomenon.


You are ignoring the substance of multiplicity.


Again you take the wrong direction, Unity is the closest state of all possible phenomena.

That was a joke, son. Ya missed it. Flew right by ya.
 
So Unity is without distinction (boundless) but is capable of making all distinctions (multiplicity). Are you not highjacking the Tao te Ching and other documents?

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
You are drifting from http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10377819&postcount=590.

Are you not highjacking the Tao te Ching and other documents?
How can one hijacking that enables hijacking?
 
Last edited:
On another note, for those watching from the peanut gallery, there is a reason I am not playing doronshadmi's edit games. He has a reputation for wasting time like this.

And that's on top of the amount of time-wasting he does using regular means.
 
There's no point in trying to get an answer out of him, EDIT: Larry. Doron has no interest in defining his terms, even if he does have the ability - which is doubtful, since even ignoring his demonstrable issues with basic mathematics, the concepts he is trying to argue for are very likely incoherent at their bade.

He does this regularly. Take, for example, "parallel summation", which his "unity" is highly reminiscent of.

Doronshadmi is convinced that .999999... is not equal to 1, despite his utter inability to show any situation in which is does not behave exactly as if it is. One of his many attempts to prove that it isn't was to introduce an undefined mathematical operation he called "parallel summation", which was supposed to bypass the whole problem of an infinite series being, well, infinite, by somehow adding up all the digits in it at once.

Or something like that. Like I said, he never defines his terms; the above is the best the other posters in the thread could get out of him. It's impossible, nonsensical, and still very likely more coherent than any definition doronshadmi himself could give.

There was even the whole "you're only right because you are limited by a frame of reference" bit. Over there it was "observing the real number line from the perspective of the cardinality of infinity", or something equally nonsensical. This time he's just substituted "multiplicity viewpoint".

He not only can't define these terms; he won't, because the instant he does so, he not only sacrifices his primary defense - saying "these terms are simply beyond your puny mortal minds" - but it becomes instantly apparent that he doesn't actually know what he's talking about. We saw this earlier when he claimed that he was a neutral monist, but claimed that neutral monism held that both materialism and idealism are true; this is wrong on all three counts, as all of those philosophies are mutually exclusive by definition. When this was pointed out, he argued against it for a bit until the fact that he was provably wrong became too much to ignore. Then he resorted to editing his original post and trying to claim victory ehen I refused to waste my time with that game.

This is why he plays at pseudomath. This is why he uses eight-word phrases to refer (poorly) to lines, then backpedals frantically and says they aren't really lines, even though he just gave the definition of a line and the image being referred to is an image of a line. This is why he uses terms like unity and multiplicity, unbounded and infinite, even though his definitions of those are alternately unclear or wrong. Because there's just enough there to tether him, in some ethereal way, to real mathematics.

And mathematics is the domain of intelligent people. So, obviously, if you can't understand him, it's not because he's spouting gibberish. It's because he's a better mathematician than you.

So asking for definitions from him is pointless. Even if he could give them, he wouldn't. Because that would mean leaving his ivory tower and exposing himself to real criticism.

It's not even a catch-22. He couldn't be coherent if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to anyway.

So that's all right.
 
Last edited:
Nonpareil said:
If a triangle can exist independent of the mind, who is there to give a "descriptor"?

1. If a fish is green, how much does my table weigh?

No, it's that mathematical concepts exist independent of the mind.

2. Concepts? No. Concepts require minds to exist. But mathematical realism talks about entities, not concepts. It speaks of triangles, not our description of triangles.

Those do exist independent of the mind, and I have never said otherwise.

I have just explained this. Mathematics is independent of the interpreter, because mathematics is an objective description of reality.

Which means that there's a possible universe where the Pythagoream Theorem exists in a universe with no conscious beings.

No, it means that there's a possible universe where the Pythagorean theorem applies with no conscious beings.

A theorem is a formulation of principles created by conscious beings. By definition, theorems do not exist without anyone to theorize.

A necessary condition for description is someone to do the describing. In a universe without minds, the mathematical descriptions still exist

No, they don't. Descriptions do not exist without minds.

The things being described still exist.

This is not complicated.

Actually, it's very complicated:

"Mathematical platonism is any metaphysical account of mathematics that implies mathematical entities exist, that they are abstract, and that they are independent of all our rational activities. For example, a platonist might assert that the number pi exists outside of space and time and has the characteristics it does regardless of any mental or physical activities of human beings. Mathematical platonists are often called "realists," although, strictly speaking, there can be realists who are not platonists because they do not accept the platonist requirement that mathematical entities be abstract.

Mathematical platonism enjoys widespread support and is frequently considered the default metaphysical position with respect to mathematics. This is unsurprising given its extremely natural interpretation of mathematical practice. In particular, mathematical platonism takes at face-value such well known truths as that "there exist" an infinite number of prime numbers, and it provides straightforward explanations of mathematical objectivity and of the differences between mathematical and spatio-temporal entities. Thus arguments for mathematical platonism typically assert that in order for mathematical theories to be true their logical structure must refer to some mathematical entities, that many mathematical theories are indeed objectively true, and that mathematical entities are not constituents of the spatio-temporal realm
."
http://www.iep.utm.edu/mathplat/
 
Actually, it's very complicated:

Well, no. It's really not.

This:

"Mathematical platonism is any metaphysical account of mathematics that implies mathematical entities exist, that they are abstract, and that they are independent of all our rational activities. For example, a platonist might assert that the number pi exists outside of space and time and has the characteristics it does regardless of any mental or physical activities of human beings. Mathematical platonists are often called "realists," although, strictly speaking, there can be realists who are not platonists because they do not accept the platonist requirement that mathematical entities be abstract.

Mathematical platonism enjoys widespread support and is frequently considered the default metaphysical position with respect to mathematics. This is unsurprising given its extremely natural interpretation of mathematical practice. In particular, mathematical platonism takes at face-value such well known truths as that "there exist" an infinite number of prime numbers, and it provides straightforward explanations of mathematical objectivity and of the differences between mathematical and spatio-temporal entities. Thus arguments for mathematical platonism typically assert that in order for mathematical theories to be true their logical structure must refer to some mathematical entities, that many mathematical theories are indeed objectively true, and that mathematical entities are not constituents of the spatio-temporal realm
."
http://www.iep.utm.edu/mathplat/

...is not complicated.

It means that the definition I was using was slightly wrong (as I was under the impression that mathematical realism did not actually say that there was a magical dimension where "pure triangles" frolicked wild and free, but was rather, y'know, sane), yes. But it also means that the response is very, very simple:

It's wrong.
 
Well, no. It's really not.

This:



...is not complicated.

It means that the definition I was using was slightly wrong (as I was under the impression that mathematical realism did not actually say that there was a magical dimension where "pure triangles" frolicked wild and free, but was rather, y'know, sane), yes. But it also means that the response is very, very simple:

It's wrong.

Ok, Nonparaeil. You're right and everyone else is wrong. That seems to be the m.o. for this forum.
 
For once again, the imaginary is intruding on reality

Imagination is a physical process.

Not "imagination" the "imaginary."

What's your problem, exactly?

My problem seems to be communicating what I think are reasonable points in a discussion where dismissing other viewpoints is de rigueur. I need to revisit my skeptic-dogma textbook.
 
Last edited:
Doronshadmi is convinced that .999999... is not equal to 1,
Look Nonpareil,

This is the second or third time that you try to hijack this thread by writing about http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10364025&postcount=277.

You are invited to air your view about http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10364025&postcount=277 in the right thread.

I will not reply to you about http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10364025&postcount=277 in this thread, FULL STOP.

... he claimed that he was a neutral monist, but claimed that neutral monism held that both materialism and idealism are true; this is wrong on all three counts, as all of those philosophies are mutually exclusive by definition.
My natural monist model of Unity (where Unity is not one_of_many thing by this model) does not use Nonpareil's view, which according to it, he actually counts three schools of thought that can't be but mutually exclusive, exactly because he uses multiplicity reasoning, such that each school of thought (Neutral monism, Materialism, Idealism) is one_of_many thing that excludes the other two schools of thoughts.

His multiplicity reasoning has nothing to do with the Neutral monist model of Unity, which according to it Materialism or Idealism are some multiple expressions that are derived from a common substance (Unity, which is not one_of_many thing as its expressions are) but not vice versa, as very simply addressed in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10377509&postcount=566 (but surly can't be comprehended by using multiplicity reasoning, and this is exactly the case of, for example, Nonpareil and Belz...).
 
Last edited:
Ok, Nonparaeil. You're right and everyone else is wrong. That seems to be the m.o. for this forum.

There's nothing else to be said.

The idea isn't even coherent, let alone supported by any sort of evidence. It's the same issue that idealism and neutral monism have. They are defined only in the loosest sense, and that definition collapses the minute you begin to look deeper. What exactly is this "higher plane" where mathematical entities, void somehow of all other characteristics other than the fact that they are mathematical entities, exist? How do we interact with it? How does it impose itself upon our world?

You don't just get to wave a hand and say "magic", then complain when someone dismisses your idea. If you support mathematical realism, then give us a reason to consider it.

My problem seems to be communicating what I think are reasonable points in a discussion where dismissing other viewpoints is de rigueur. I need to revisit my skeptic-dogma textbook.

Since both you and Fudbucker have said this, I should probably point out that the only things being outright dismissed here are those that have no evidence to support them, or even any sort of coherent definition.


I didn't ask you to. I'm giving context for people who have not read the other thread.

My natural monist

Neutral.

model of Unity (where Unity is not one_of_many thing by this model)

You don't have a model, you can't define "Unity", and "one_of_many thing" is a nonsense phrase.

does not use Nonpareil's view, which according to it, he actually counts three schools of thought that can't be but mutually exclusive, exactly because he uses multiplicity reasoning, such that each school of thought (Neutral monism, Materialism, Idealism) is one_of_many thing that excludes the other two schools of thoughts.

Once again, "my view" is literally just the definition.

You don't understand what those words mean.

His multiplicity reasoning has nothing to do with the Neutral monist model of Unity, which according to it Materialism or Idealism are some multiple expressions that are derived from a common substance (Unity, which is not one_of_many thing as its expressions are) but not vice versa, as very simply addressed in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10377509&postcount=566 (but surly can't be comprehended by using multiplicity reasoning, and this is exactly the case of, for example, Nonpareil and Belz...).

At no point do you explain the difference between unity and multiplicity reasoning. At no point do you give us any reason to even believe that there is a coherent difference, other than that unity reasoning magically says whatever you want it to say and is superior in all respects to multiplicity reasoning.

And you still can't get around the fact that materialism and idealism are, by definition, mutually exclusive, and neutral monism necessarily posits that they are both false.
 
Last edited:
You are actually out right from here:
You're going to have to speak like I'm in 4th grade - that web page makes no sense.
Any way, lets address the traditional 0/1 excluded-middle reasoning, as follows:

Code:
         p = 0    0  1 1

         q = 0    1  0 1
         ---------------


                      /0  Contradiction
                    /0
                   /  \1  p AND q
                 /0
                /  \  /0  p not implies q
               /    \1
              /       \1  p
            /0
           /  \       /0  q not implies p
          /    \    /0
         /      \  /  \1  q
        /        \1
       /           \  /0  p XOR q
      /             \1
     /                \1  p OR q
Unity
     \                /0  p NOR q
      \             /0
       \           /  \1  p NXOR q
        \        /0
         \      /  \  /0  NOT q
          \    /    \1
           \  /       \1  q implies p
            \1
              \       /0  NOT p
               \    /0
                \  /  \1  p implies q
                 \1
                   \  /0  p NAND q
                    \1
                      \1  Tautology

As can be seen Unity is the substance of the 16 logical connectives between the 2 propositions p and q, which is not bounded by p,q or anyone of the 16 logical connectives.

We can use 0/1 tree in order to demonstrate Unity as the substance of Materialism and Idealism, for example:
Code:
      Idealism    = 0   
                        
      Materialism = 1   
                        
                        
                        
                      /0
                    /0  
                   /  \1
                 /0     
                /  \  /0
               /    \1  
              /       \1
            /0          
           /  \       /0
          /    \    /0  
         /      \  /  \1
        /        \1     
       /           \  /0
      /             \1  
     /                \1
Unity                   
     \                /0
      \             /0  
       \           /  \1
        \        /0     
         \      /  \  /0
          \    /    \1  
           \  /       \1
            \1          
              \       /0
               \    /0  
                \  /  \1
                 \1     
                   \  /0
                    \1  
                      \1

As can be seen by this simple Neutral monist model of Unity, multiplicity is derived from Unity, but not vise versa, simply because Unity is (by its very own nature) not the sum of many things.

More information is found in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10377509&postcount=566.
 
Last edited:
I'm giving context for people who have not read the other thread.
First you have to explicitly demonstrate that you understand the given context (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10364025&postcount=277) something that you fail to do.

Thank you.

At no point do you explain the difference between unity and multiplicity reasoning. At no point do you give us any reason to even believe that there is a coherent difference, other than that unity reasoning magically says whatever you want it to say and is superior in all respects to multiplicity reasoning.

And you still can't get around the fact that materialism and idealism are, by definition, mutually exclusive, and neutral monism necessarily posits that they are both false.
At no point you demonstrated that you comprehend http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10377742&postcount=585 exactly because your notions are derived only from the boundedness of multiplicity.
 
Last edited:
The hand-waving response is actually your style in the considered subject


Really, you're going to use a "I know you are, but what am I ?" tactic ?


Yeah, that's a post by you, so that's your hand-waving response, not mine.

Moreover, your multiplicity reasoning

What is multiplicity reasoning, anyway ? You keep saying it but never explain it.
 
Any way, lets address the traditional 0/1 excluded-middle reasoning, as follows:

For those wondering, that translates to "let's talk about the idea that propositions are either true or false".

Apparently, doronshadmi believes this is not true.

<snip table>

As can be seen Unity is the substance of the 16 logical connectives between the 2 propositions p and q, which is not bounded p,q or anyone of the 16 logical connectives.

The table means nothing, and the rest is gibberish.

For those wondering, doronshadmi is constructing a rudimentary binary tree. Trace any particular string of numbers down the length of the tree and you get a string of four numbers. The string "0011" is referred to as p, while "0101" is q. Yes, these values are completely arbitrary; they're just ones that give a pretty table.

All the stuff like "p AND q", "p XOR q", and so on is just pointing out which strings of numbers correspond to what bitwise operations between those two values. "0001" is what you get if you perform the AND operation on p and q, when he talks about implication he's talking about bitwise logic implementation, and so on. It's actually fairly basic, and all correct so far as actually performing the operations and getting the right values goes.

But it doesn't actually mean anything.

Like I said, the values of p and q in this example are arbitrary. Aside from that, putting the word "unity" at the base of the tree is worse than meaningless. The tree uses binary values - zero and one - because it is talking about comparing strings of bits; a non-binary, non-numeric value as the root is incoherent, unless doronshadmi means to imply that "unity" means "any string of binary values of any length", and the two values being compared are simply differing ends to the string. Which would be valid, but doesn't help his other arguments much, since his whole "unity/multiplicity" thing can't take that as its definition.

There's also his placing the values "tautology" and "contradiction" at differing ends of the tree. Like the use of "unity" as the root, this can make sense if you substitute the right values, but it still doesn't mean anything for the rest of his arguments. "Tautology", in this context, must be said to mean "I performed any string of bitwise operations that resulted in a result of 1111", while contradiction is the same but for the string "0000". Again, not technically wrong, but unnecessarily complicated, and not helpful to the rest of his arguments.

It also doesn't "address the traditional 0/1 excluded-middle reasoning". Or, rather, it does, but not in the way he wants it to.

Keep in mind that this tree is a demonstration of bitwise operations. It's computer programming, and, in programming, "true" and "false" are represented by 1 and 0, respectively. Bitwise operators - AND, OR, XOR, and so on - all work by comparing two bits (that is, values of 0 or 1) and "returning" (giving the answer) 0 or 1. That is, bitwise operations only function explicitly because they work on the principle that doronshadmi claims they can disprove.

As for the strings they return, well, that's just doronshadmi failing to distinguish between 0 and 1 as truth values - which are called Boolean variables, in programming - and as simple strings of bits which can mean anything depending on how they are processed.

So no. He hasn't addressed anything. He's just constructed a fairly simple binary tree showing, grabbed two arbitrary strings of bits, and then worked out where each bitwise operator is expressed on the tree. He then slaps on three terms that don't really make sense in the context unless taken in the loosest way possible (but which look very impressive, dontcherknow) and claims he's proven something.

We can use 0/1 tree in order to demonstrate Unity as the substance of Materialism and Idealism

You can't, actually.

Putting aside literally everything that I said above, and ignoring for the moment that trying to represent materialism and idealism as binary 0 or binary 1 is a category error, and letting slide for now the fact that you still don't have a definition of "unity", there's another problem here.

Literally all you have done is build a binary tree with an invalid value as its root and said "materialism = 1, idealism = 0".

This doesn't mean anything. This means less than nothing. It is un-learning things from my brain.

By the logic presented here, you could substitute literally any two things you wanted into this tree and prove that "unity" is the root of both. I could use this diagram to say unity is the root of teddy bears and the color purple. If this table is valid, you still haven't proven anything. You have, in fact, un-proven everything, ever.

Try again. And this time, don't assume that your audience is completely ignorant of computer science and unable to call you out on your nonsense.

And, once again, misrepresented and incoherent programming-related pseudomath is a staple of doronshadmi's posts.
 
By the logic presented here, you could substitute literally any two things you wanted into this tree and prove that "unity" is the root of both.
Exactly Nonpareil, Unity is the substance of mutiplicity (no matter what multiple things are considered), but not vise versa, exactly because Unity is (by its very own nature) not the sum of many things (it is not derived from multiplicity).

and "one_of_many thing" is a nonsense phrase.
Not at all, one_of_many thing is exactly one_of_multiple things, where Unity (by its very own nature) is not one_of_multiple things.
 
Last edited:
Exactly Nonpareil, Unity is the substance of mutiplicity (no matter what multiple things are considered), but not vise versa, exactly because Unity is (by its very own nature) not the sum of many things (is not derived from multiplicity).

We have reached an impasse.

I have pointed out that your argument is nonsense. I explain how and why it is nonsense. I show that, if you ignore the fact that it makes absolutely no sense and has no basis in any sort of rationality whatsoever and follow this argument through to its (il)logical conclusion, you are left with an incoherent mess that means less than nothing.

And you say "exactly!"

I think we're done here.
 
I have pointed out that your argument is nonsense.
Once again you have pointed out that your reasoning is limited only to multiplicity.

and "one_of_many thing" is a nonsense phrase.
As a result you can't comprehend one_of_many (or one_of_multiple) thing, exactly like a fish that is surrounded by water but can't comprehend it.
 
Last edited:
... can we imagine things that do not exist?

Yes, we can.

Then somehow, I need to connect these things that do not exist to what we imagine, in order to connect the non-existent to the existent. That is, to show that things which do not exist can influence things that do.

Here's my latest try. I propose that we there are types of imaginings that have rules, so that the rules influence not only what we are capable of imagining, but allow us to do a bit of mental manipulation on those imaginings.

I'm after a structure that says a certain type of non-existent thing has a kind of shape to it, a property bound to that thing which then is carried over into our imaginings and influences them.
 
Then somehow, I need to connect these things that do not exist to what we imagine, in order to connect the non-existent to the existent. That is, to show that things which do not exist can influence things that do.

So you're honestly attempting to prove that, somewhere out there, in some sense, there exists a real Death Star, which is the reason that George Lucas came up with the fictional one for his movies?

Honest question.

Here's my latest try. I propose that we there are types of imaginings that have rules, so that the rules influence not only what we are capable of imagining, but allow us to do a bit of mental manipulation on those imaginings.

All right. For the sake of argument, I will grant this.

Now, how does showing that the human imagination has limits get you closer to proving that the nonexistent can have an effect on the existent?

I'm after a structure that says a certain type of non-existent thing has a kind of shape to it, a property bound to that thing which then is carried over into our imaginings and influences them.

Great. How can you differentiate between that and ordinary imagination?
 
There's nothing else to be said.

The idea isn't even coherent, let alone supported by any sort of evidence. It's the same issue that idealism and neutral monism have. They are defined only in the loosest sense, and that definition collapses the minute you begin to look deeper. What exactly is this "higher plane" where mathematical entities, void somehow of all other characteristics other than the fact that they are mathematical entities, exist? How do we interact with it? How does it impose itself upon our world?

You don't just get to wave a hand and say "magic", then complain when someone dismisses your idea. If you support mathematical realism, then give us a reason to consider it.

I gave you reasons, and your argument isn't with me but with all the mathematicians that believe in it:
"Mathematical platonism enjoys widespread support and is frequently considered the default metaphysical position with respect to mathematics."


Just like the fine-tuning thread, we come to a point where the consensus opinion of authorities is discarded, and we're supposed to believe the ramblings of some message board members. I hardly need to tell a bunch of skeptics how non-skeptical that is.
 
I gave yu reasons

No. You gave me assertions.

They are not equivalent.

and your argument isn't with me but with all the mathematicians that believe in it:
"Mathematical platonism enjoys widespread support and is frequently considered the default metaphysical position with respect to mathematics."

Popularity is not a defense when the entire philosophy is demonstrably incoherent and lacks all evidential support. Especially when this argument is not mathematical. The fact that mathematicians support it is irrelevant.

Just like the fine-tuning thread, we come to a point where the consensus opinion of authorities is discarded

The area they are experts in is not equivalent to the one being discussed.

Stop trying to pretend that it is.

EDIT: For the record, I actually agree with Fudbucker, generally speaking, about the fine tuning thread being an absolute train wreck because people are spouting off about things they don't understand and ignoring the relevant authorities. I won't say I agree with everything he says in it, but on that point we have consensus. I refrain from posting there because I am not an expert, and I have read enough of Hawking's work on the subject to know that it is completely out of my league, and the thread is a complete Charlie Foxtrot as is.

However.

In this case, the field being examined is not math. It does not take an expert mathematician to dismiss a claim about a magical realm of "pure" triangles. There is no evidence presented. The claim as it stands is incoherent. The arguments put forth in its favor all fall flat because they end up making an unwarranted leap from "mathematics is objective" to "magic triangles".

You don't have to be a mathematician to see the problem here.
 
Last edited:
No. You gave me assertions.

They are not equivalent.



Popularity is not a defense when the entire philosophy is demonstrably incoherent and lacks all evidential support. Especially when this argument is not mathematical. The fact that mathematicians support it is irrelevant.



The area they are experts in is not equivalent to the one being discussed.

Stop trying to pretend that it is.

EDIT: For the record, I actually agree with Fudbucker, generally speaking, about the fine tuning thread being an absolute train wreck because people are spouting off about things they don't understand and ignoring the relevant authorities. I won't say I agree with everything he says in it, but on that point we have consensus. I refrain from posting there because I am not an expert, and I have read enough of Hawking's work on the subject to know that it is completely out of my league, and the thread is a complete Charlie Foxtrot as is.

However.

In this case, the field being examined is not math. It does not take an expert mathematician to dismiss a claim about a magical realm of "pure" triangles. There is no evidence presented. The claim as it stands is incoherent. The arguments put forth in its favor all fall flat because they end up making an unwarranted leap from "mathematics is objective" to "magic triangles".

You don't have to be a mathematician to see the problem here.

I think you underestimate how mathematicians struggle with the ontology of math, and how much effort goes into understanding what math is.

However, it does have philosophical implications, so you do have a point. It's not as strong as you think, though.

My own argument is fairly straightforward: if mathematical entities like Pi (and numbers in general) had a mental foundation, they would be derived at through induction, and therefore capable of being wrong (there is no deductive argument that 2+2 must equal 4. Wittgenstein tried to reduce mathematics to logical principles and failed). In other words, math is not invented, it's discovered.

If math is discovered, then it must exist in some form in order to be discovered. Math cannot exist in a material form (what is the material version of Pi or the number "3"?), so math must exist in some non-material form.
 
So you're honestly attempting to prove that, somewhere out there, in some sense, there exists a real Death Star, which is the reason that George Lucas came up with the fictional one for his movies?

Honest question.

No, I'm not attempting to prove that. Because if there existed a real Death Star, it wouldn't be a non-existent thing. What I'm thinking of is some kind of rule that helps shape what we can imagine, even about non-existent things. The problem is going to be when I get to the step where I say the "rule" isn't just a property of how imagination works. This might be a dead end.
 
This remains incoherent.
Your reply
He then slaps on three terms that don't really make sense in the context unless taken in the loosest way possible (but which look very impressive, dontcherknow) and claims he's proven something.
clearly demonstrates once again, that you still try to comprehend my Neutral monist model of Unity by using municipality-only reasoning (that is exactly the context that is used by you here), which wrongly comprehends Unity as one_of_many thing.

So, there is no wonder why you can't comprehend my Neutral monist model of Unity, and totally missing posts like http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10379381&postcount=627, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10379299&postcount=619, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10377509&postcount=566 and http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27823&p=269245#p269301.

Once again, here is what you are missing again and again (exactly because you are using multiplicity-only reasoning):

If Unity is the unbounded source of all bounded forms, it is naturally unbounded by contradiction or tautology, which are clearly the bounds of logic at the level of multiplicity.

So is the case about Material or Ideal phenomena, which are some bounded forms at the multiplicity level that is derived from Unity, but not vise versa.

Moreover
So you still don't have a definition, then.

Since multiplicity is derived from Unity, but not vise versa, Unity is defined only in terms of analogy, whether this analogy is words or a given diagram.

Since your reasoning is limited only to multiplicity, it does not have the needed abstraction in order to comprehend what Unity is.

---------------------------------------

On the contrary. I just don't care to.
Ho, yes you care to use other posters' replies about the other thread (and this time by using small letters)
exactly because you don't have the guts to do it by yourself.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom