The Electric Comet theory

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Whoa ben m, You claimed this ...

So you're wrong to say "Peratt dropped the whole line of inquiry like a hot potato, didn't he?"

Started in late 1970s / early 1980s and still putting out a paper on it in 1995 !!!

And then dropped it like a hot potato.

Hey, Haig, I'm trying to help you here. You are citing a paper that you should be embarrassed to cite in 2015.

In our ongoing quest to figure out "What is EU theory and why does anyone believe it", your Peratt citation provides the usual answer:

a) EU theory is this stale pile of crap that's already well-known to be false. (That's a worse answer than "EU is a dynamic field whose new ideas are good and getting better")

b) EU's advocates don't understand what they're quoting and are therefore not worth arguing with.
 
Good afternoon, Haig.

I don't normally post in the afternoon, and also try to avoid discussions on things other than the explicit topic of this thread. However, today - the day after New Year's Day and before a weekend - is a bit special, so I'll make an exception ...
Can you Tom debate Miles Mathis on these ? or can anyone else ?

<other stuff snipped>

Thanks for the links, here and earlier; most ... what's the word ... entertaining.

I suspect you've been conned, Haig. You see, I think Miles Mathis is not doing science, nor intending to do any science; rather, I get the impression that he's an artist (you did check out his whole website, didn't you?). A rather clever one too, in that he's able to write stuff that looks - to people who have no real understanding of science - like it could be science. But he's also clearly (to me, anyway) not trying to do physics, mathematics, or anything like what you'd learn in a first year university course.

And some of his stuff is quite clever, but I suspect that bright high school kids would quite enjoy ripping it to shreds, and high school teachers assigning it as 'extra credit' homework (e.g. his pi=4 stuff).

If you're genuinely interested in understanding just how, er, flawed his work is, why not start a new thread? One that's devoted to Miles Mathis and his 'physics/mathematical proofs'? If nothing else, I'm sure it would be quite enjoyable entertainment for other ISF members!
 
Hello again, Haig.
Gee tusenfem, have I got to keep pointing it out to you ?

Electric Comets require an Electric Sun require an Electric Universe / Plasma Cosmology

It's a package deal ! Sure the thread is about Electric Comets but the other elements in the "trinity" can be discussed a bit. IMHO

<other stuff snipped>
If you genuinely believe this, and if you hold consistency dear, then you yourself have already shown the whole "package deal" to be a pile of nonsense.

Surprised? Wondering how I can so easily claim that?

It starts with an assumption, that you accept that the work Peratt published (at least, that on galaxy formation, his simulations, etc) is genuinely within the EU/PC paradigm. And is based on plasma physics (or something similarly mainstream). In short, that you accept that 'electrical theorists' base their scientific research on the same understanding of electromagnetism and plasma physics as Peratt, Alfven, Birkeland, etc.

If so, then the absence of observations consistent with the existence of giant, intergalactic Birkeland currents, the absence of observations consistent with the Sun having a relative potential difference (with the heliosheath/whatever) of ~billions of volts, the absence of observations consistent with ongoing EDM on comet nuclei, ... rules out the whole EC/ES/EU/PC "package deal".

As science anyway. Of course, you can continue to believe in this "package deal", replacing 'electric'-like words with magic, and so on. But that means you accept that the whole EC/ES/EU/PC "package deal" is, intellectually, indistinguishable from creationism (as, most recently, new member jmckaskle has been pointing out).
 
Good afternoon, rwguinn.
Question for Haig, Sol88, et al.
How do you run a computer simulation/analysis without mathematics? Don't you need, like, equations and stuff?
Unless you have Asimov's MULTIVAC and say "Here's all the data. What's the answer?"
It's a bit odd, isn't it?

Especially with the insistence of David Talbott, Haig, and even Sol88 on the primacy of "observations", direct ones even.

In the case of galaxy rotation curves, some are derived from observations of "the 21-cm hydrogen line", which requires acceptance of some rather nice quantum mechanics, because no one has observed such emission in any laboratory. And then there's Rosetta: no poor person strapped to the spacecraft for a decade or so, using their own eyeballs to watch what happens, writing it down on a piece of paper, and sending it back to base; rather, rather amazing instruments built using mathematics, equations, and stuff. Instruments which report their detections back to us on Earth via radio signals, encoded using more mathematics, equations, and stuff. Radio signals which surely would be very much messed up by giant intergalactic Birkeland currents, EDM-creating electrical discharges, etc.

Do you think the apparent hypocrisy is deliberate? Or that, perhaps, David Talbott, Haig, Sol88 et al. simply do not know how completely dependent on mathematics, equations, and stuff contemporary "observations" are?
 
Thank you Haig, for providing direct evidence of the fundamental hole in the whole EC/ES/EU/PC package deal! :D
<stuff snipped>

Misconception: If you’re not doing math, you’re not doing real science.
Answer:
Science does not begin with mathematics, but with direct observation, experiment, and special insights into cause-and-effect relationships.

Many popular mathematical constructs today were devised early in the 20th century to help explain aspects of gravity-centric theory. Now, the picture has changed, and gravity is no longer sovereign on the macrocosmic scale. The cosmic “container” of objects in space is not an empty vacuum. Nor is it the neutral plasma medium that theorists once assumed based on limited observations.

We now see massive flows of charged particles, ranging from immeasurably subtle to explosively energetic — a universe more hugely complex than most theorists of the 20th century ever imagined. Gravitational models, based on a single Newtonian equation, can no longer describe things now displayed in the heavens across the full electromagnetic spectrum.
(my bold)

The webpage you provide a link to has a JPEG image on it, titled "A solar Eruption on August 31, 2012, as captured by NASA’s Solar Dynamics Observatory. What we see is a plasma instability, the effect of high energy electric discharge between regions of different charge. Some day we may be able to predict such occurrences mathematically, but the electrical nature of such events has been recognized for decades."

NASA’s Solar Dynamics Observatory eh? And "as captured by" too.

Do you happen to know where "NASA’s Solar Dynamics Observatory" was when it "captured" this JPEG image, Haig? How did it get there? How did it return what it "captured" back to us? I'm pretty sure it wasn't in the form of the JPEG posted on that webpage; rather, it was in some other format, one which required some mathematics embedded in software and/or hardware to turn into a JPEG image.

In short, while it may have been an observation, it most certainly was not "direct"! :p

There's more ... sschirott (the stated author of that article) is pretty unambiguous: "What we see is a plasma instability, the effect of high energy electric discharge between regions of different charge." Really? How did (s)he know that? And - more important - how can anyone else (you, me, ben m, tusenfem, ...) independently verify this claim? In an objective way?

I mean, the "direct observation" is a 550x309 pixel JPEG, with some black, some white, some yellow, etc. How do you get from this rather pretty set of pixels to "the effect of high energy electric discharge between regions of different charge"? Without using any mathematics?
 
While the posts in this thread which I quote are by Haig, this post itself is not addressed specifically to Haig; rather, it's a comment on something rather ironic I found in his posts ...
<stuff not relevant to the point I want to make snipped>

Proof from NASA that π is 4

<stuff not relevant to the point I want to make snipped>
Following a link on the above URL, you get to read this (source):

Miles Mathis said:
Abstract: I show that in kinematic situations, π is 4. For all those going ballistic over my title, I repeat and stress that this paper applies to kinematic situations, not to static situations. I am analyzing an orbit, which is caused by motion and includes the time variable. In that situation, π becomes 4. When measuring your waistline, you are not creating an orbit, and you can keep π for that. So quit writing me nasty, uninformed letters.

Here's part of another of Haig's recent posts:

<stuff not relevant to the point I want to make snipped>

Misconception: If you’re not doing math, you’re not doing real science.
Answer:
Science does not begin with mathematics, but with direct observation, experiment, and special insights into cause-and-effect relationships.

<stuff not relevant to the point I want to make snipped>
So, did Haig use "direct observation, experiment, and special insights into cause-and-effect relationships" to check Miles Mathis' "mathematics"?

I do not know.

However, I did!

I got a piece of string, stuck one end to a board covered with paper (I used a drawing pin), and a bit of 'lead' from a pencil at the other. I pushed the taut string around its center, to make a circle. Using a different piece of string and a ruler, I measured both the radius of the drawn circle and its circumference. Within the limits of accuracy, I confirmed that the circumference of my circle is ~3.14 times the diameter of the circle.

That's Miles' "static situation".

For his "kinematic situation", I replaced the bit of lead with a bit of real lead, and flicked it, making it "go into orbit" ... the lead became an object "in orbit" around the drawing pin, constrained in its path by the taut string (I had to repeat this several times to get it to work properly; for example, sometimes the pin came loose, sometimes the lead didn't go all the way round).

By "direct observation" - i.e. by following the path of the lead with my eyes, and seeing whether it followed a path different from the circle I'd drawn earlier - I confirmed that the orbit of the lead was a circle, the same as the one I'd drawn earlier (to the limit of my eyes, etc).

So, doing science per Haig's link, I have shown Mathis' mathematics to be inconsistent with direct observation. :p

Of course, Miles Mathis spends a lot of words in his "paper", "explaining" why his analysis/claim that pi=4 in "kinematic situations" is correct; to Haig these words may seem like "mathematics". But those words are have zero value, as science, because they contradict direct observation.

Over to you Haig ...
 
While the posts in this thread which I quote are by Haig, this post itself is not addressed specifically to Haig; rather, it's a comment on something rather ironic I found in his posts ...

Following a link on the above URL, you get to read this (source):



Here's part of another of Haig's recent posts:


So, did Haig use "direct observation, experiment, and special insights into cause-and-effect relationships" to check Miles Mathis' "mathematics"?

I do not know.

However, I did!

I got a piece of string, stuck one end to a board covered with paper (I used a drawing pin), and a bit of 'lead' from a pencil at the other. I pushed the taut string around its center, to make a circle. Using a different piece of string and a ruler, I measured both the radius of the drawn circle and its circumference. Within the limits of accuracy, I confirmed that the circumference of my circle is ~3.14 times the diameter of the circle.

That's Miles' "static situation".

For his "kinematic situation", I replaced the bit of lead with a bit of real lead, and flicked it, making it "go into orbit" ... the lead became an object "in orbit" around the drawing pin, constrained in its path by the taut string (I had to repeat this several times to get it to work properly; for example, sometimes the pin came loose, sometimes the lead didn't go all the way round).

By "direct observation" - i.e. by following the path of the lead with my eyes, and seeing whether it followed a path different from the circle I'd drawn earlier - I confirmed that the orbit of the lead was a circle, the same as the one I'd drawn earlier (to the limit of my eyes, etc).

So, doing science per Haig's link, I have shown Mathis' mathematics to be inconsistent with direct observation. :p

Of course, Miles Mathis spends a lot of words in his "paper", "explaining" why his analysis/claim that pi=4 in "kinematic situations" is correct; to Haig these words may seem like "mathematics". But those words are have zero value, as science, because they contradict direct observation.

Over to you Haig ...

Hey JeanTate, you don't get it do you ?

Miles Mathis was for the MATH MATH MATH guys on here :)

Feel free to knock yourself out on his Electric Sun stuff below (charge is electrical right?) :D

From my post HERE ...

Haig said:
Can you Tom debate Miles Mathis on these ? or can anyone else ?

Don't go for the man (I doubt you can resist) what are the arguments against his math and logic in these three papers.

Miles Mathis isn't in the EU / PC crowd and he certainly isn't in the mainstream, he's kinda unique :) but in discussions of an Electric Sun and with his focus on "charge" as one of the overlooked factors of an electrical nature should / must be included IMHO

The Cause of the Solar Cycle PDF
Miles Mathis said:
It has been known for a long time that the main Solar cycle is about 11 years, but that is just an average. It goes from a minimum of about 9 years up to about 14 years. Although some theories have been presented, the cause of all three numbers is unknown. I will show you the correct answer here.

The reason I so quickly hit on the right answer is that I knew where to look. In my other long paper on Sun cycles (ice ages), I have already shown that Jupiter is the cause of the secondary variance. In this
case we will see that Jupiter is the cause of the primary variance. Upon reading the NASA data, Jupiter is the first place I looked. The NASA writers even give us a hidden clue, though it is doubtful anyone but me tripped over it.

Miles Mathis said:
The fact that the alignment of Jupiter/Uranus is determining this maximum in 2012 is what has made it strange and small. In 2012, we finally hit our first peak of the cycle, and that is when Uranus is still near the line, Saturn is near the line, and Neptune is moving toward it again. Although none are strictly aligned with Jupiter, this near alignment of all four planets is about the best we are going to get in this weak cycle.

Saturn is now (late 2014) moving toward 90, so we are moving toward a minimum. But we are not moving very positively toward it even this late in the cycle, since Neptune is going to opposition. This will stretch the peak of cycle 24, pushing it well into 2015. The slope of the graph won't really start to drop strongly until after Neptune moves off the line. This will cause a pretty precipitous drop from 2015 to 2018. In 2018, Saturn will be at about 45, Neptune will at about 90, and Uranus will be at 90. So you can see easily the cause of the minimum there.


Magnetic Reconnection and Coronal Temperatures PDF
Miles Mathis said:
At any rate, I have long had a simple mechanical theory for charge effects: it has been part of my unified field for years. But until now I have not connected it to the corona. Even when I wrote a paper on the Sun a couple of years ago, I had nothing much to say about the creation of the coronal energy. But now that I have used the charge field to explain the brightness of planets, moons, and comets—via magnetic interaction—I now have a mechanism for the corona. Some of my readers understood me
immediately, and made the connection before I even got here. They wrote and asked me if the brightness of Enceldaus was linked to the heat of the corona. Rather than just say “yes,” I decided to write this paper for all my readers, making the connection explicit.

In those previous papers on comets and moons, I showed how the spins on the photons could cause the unexplained brightness. We only require photons meeting anti-photons, and charge recycling—along with an ambient field—was able to explain both. In short, all spherical bodies from electrons to
galaxies recycle charge. The spin of the sphere in an ambient field naturally creates field potentials which draw photons in at the poles and emit them most heavily at the equator. This emitted charge then rejoins the ambient field at a boundary, and this rejoining can cause spin cancellations. In the right circumstances, these spin cancellations can cause big effects, and that is what we are seeing with increased brightness. It is also what we are seeing with the corona


The Heliospheric Current Sheet PDF
Miles Mathis said:
Ethan Siegel and Xiaoying Xu of the University of Arizona analyzed the distribution of dark matter in our Solar System, and found that the mass of dark matter is 300 times more than that of the galactic halo average, and the density is 16,000 times higher than that of the background dark matter.

You know what, they are right, except for one thing. That isn't dark matter they are calculating, it is charge. There is always going to be more charge in the vicinity of baryonic matter, as we have known for 200 years. Benjamin Franklin put the charge signs on matter, and we still do. We have always defined charge as a relationship of matter, so of course it is going to exist with more density around matter. I have shown why this is: matter recycles charge. Spinning protons, neutrons, and electrons recycle charge photons, and the spins and photons are real. Everything involved has mass, spin, and radius. Nothing is virtual. Nothing comes out of the vacuum or returns into it.

But they pretend not to be able to figure this out. In the new articles, they tell us that there seems to be a mysterious link between dark matter and baryonic matter, since there is more dark matter in the vicinity of baryonic matter. They ask, “How do dark matter and baryonic matter interact?”

According to consensus among cosmologists, dark matter is believed to be composed primarily of a new, not yet characterized, type of subatomic particle. The search for this particle, by a variety of means, is one of the major efforts in particle physics today.

You have to be kidding me. How about the subatomic particle we call the photon? Like dark matter, it doesn't react with E/M fields, and it creates a field that is “transparent.” It is so transparent, we have forgotten all about it, apparently. It has become transparent to our physics.

All this was caused by refusing to assign charge to a real field. Currently, it is mediated by a messenger photon, which is virtual. Imaginary. Therefore, charge currently has no real presence in the field. Which is why, when we come across new evidence indicating the presence of a powerful field of
particles, we forget about charge. “Charge is nothing, just imaginary field potentials, so we need a new field to explain new data!” Perverse.

To see mainstream physicists continue to assign all new things to dark matter is perverse, considering that they already have a field that contains it and explains it, without mystery. Why would they do that? Well, in addition to the ascendance and takeover of science fiction, we have the longstanding fact that physicists do not want to rewrite their field equations again. They had enough trouble adding Relativity to them, and they don't want to add charge, too. It would require too much work (they think). They think they have proof of the gravity-only field (since their equations work pretty well),
and this allows them to keep the field they inherited from Laplace centuries ago. Besides, they just spent decades belittling all the “cranks” who wanted to add charge or E/M to the field. The Velikovsky affair is still warm in some places, and to admit Velikovsky was even partially right about anything is
too painful for them. So it is easier to hide and misdirect than to look directly at the evidence in front of them.

However, I have done the work for them, and it turns out they can keep a lot of their old prize equations. The revolution will turn out to be a lot less messy than they have thought. It is far simpler than anyone imagined, because their old fields already contained charge. They just didn't know it. The charge field is already inside Newton's gravity field, in the constant G. And since General Relativity was just the addition of transforms to Newton, Einstein's equations already contain charge as well. And charge is already inside the Lagrangian, too, as I have shown.

That's right. The unified field was hiding in plain sight, too. It has been hiding inside G for centuries. Because it was already in the Newtonian field equations, we don't have to rewrite anything. We just have to re-expand and re-interpret what we already had.

btw Happy New Year :)
 
This debate on the Electric Sun is really getting interesting :) Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation?

Hey JeanTate no comment on The SAFIRE Project latest ? Don't disappoint me now :rolleyes:

The SAFIRE Project and JMP®: What Makes Our Sun Shine?
The SAFIRE Project said:
created by kathy.walker on 20-Aug-2014 10:53, last modified by ryan.dewitt on 06-Oct-2014 08:49 Version 6
Authors
Paul E. Anderson, Consultant, AXES LLC
Montgomery Childs, Aurtas International Inc.
Michael Clarage, Shepherd Scientific Consulting, LLC

Recent missions to local Earth and interstellar space, such as IBEX and Voyager 1 and 2, show unexpected fluxes of high-energy particles directed inward toward our sun. This, coupled with more recent observations of the solar minimum and high-resolution imaging of the sun surface from IRIS and SOHO, still do not fully explain certain phenomena. Why does the surface of the sun operate in the 3,000-4,000 K range, while the solar corona exhibits temperatures in the millions of degrees? How do the known current sheets attach our Earth to the sun? And why are they there? The scientific hypothesis of an externally powered sun has existed for nearly a century, and has recently undergone a revival due to these unanswered questions. For the purposes of this research, it is hypothesized that the emission of the sun, its composition, and its stellar classification is governed by a single mechanism: charged plasma affecting material at a different electrical potential. This presentation will share recent findings of the first of three phases of research known as SAFIRE (Stellar Atmospheric Function in Regulation Experiment). With JMP software, results of design of experiments (DOE), statistical analysis, data visualization, and regression analysis of electrical diagnostics from a unique three-dimensional plasma will be discussed. Further analysis using JMP from high-resolution emission spectroscopy and mass spectrometry will be shared. These results, along with high-resolution video imaging, point to strong similarities between certain phenomenon of the sun and SAFIRE, indicating the hypothesis of an electrical sun indeed warrants further investigation.
The SAFIRE Project PDF said:
Conclusions
Combining a number of other experiments, redesigns, and refinements, further testing revealed structurally similar discharges on the anode that were very similar to the sun’s plasma (Figure 9). Double layers, caused by charge (+/-) separation in plasmas, which produce granules and cellular layers in plasmas, were visually and/or qualitatively observed near the surface of the anode. The sun too exhibits extensive charge separation, temperature changes, and granulation as a function of distance from the core. The sun exhibits coronal ejections; the anode exhibited eruptions at regular intervals. The sun goes through emission solar cycles; the anode exhibited regular pulses despite a fully regulated DC input and clean power supply. The sun possesses a higher coronal temperature at a farther distance from the core as gauged by spectroscopy; our SBJ assembly possesses an increase temperature farther from the anode as gauged from emission spectroscopy. The trihydrogen cation (H3+) is the most abundant molecule in the universe; H3+ was detected at high percentage levels with the mass spectrometer in our experiment. Visually, the anode bears a striking resemblance to the sun, and visible layers of charge separation (Figure 9). These observations lend both quantitative and qualitative indications that the electric sun hypothesis warrants further critical study and evaluation. JMP continues to be an integral tool in the design, test, and analysis of this hypothesis.

Links can be found HERE
 
Happy New Year again, Sol88
I have never said it was not standard physics it's just never been apllied to comets i.e we have never, before the Rosetta mission, probed for dusty plasma. it's allways about the sublimating ice.

Do you mind if I ask, how did you come to this conclusion?

Because that's what we, the gullible public, have been told...time and time again and if you don't believe us then we'll dazzle you with some maths.

and if you can't do the maths yourself then how would you know what we are talking about?
 
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Question for Haig, Sol88, et al.
How do you run a computer simulation/analysis without mathematics? Don't you need, like, equations and stuff?
Unless you have Asimov's MULTIVAC and say "Here's all the data. What's the answer?"

Equations and stuff, with "stuff" being assumptions.

That's the real kicker here, the mainstream assume X and the Electric Universe assumes Y.

I play around with space engineers (a game) and the maths used to simulate gravity is, I guess, spot on but I notice no magnetic fields, electric fields, double layers and Birkeland currents (field aligned currents) in the game, when these are clearly in space.

I'd hazard a guess and say far too complex for such a simple simulation but gravity...piss easy.
 
Hello again, Sol88.
(my bold)

As you yourself have chosen to bring up the topic of jets, I think this might be a good time to remind you - and readers in general - that I had asked you about jets some time ago. And that you have yet to address my questions. So I'll repeat them here (source):

Let me ask you about jets, electrical discharge phenomena, and the ECH, OK?

1) How do you get from:
* there is an electric field centered approximately on the Sun AND
* comets are homogeneous 'rock'
to:
* the observed comet jets are an electrical discharge phenomena?

Would you please walk me through the logical steps from premises to conclusion?

2) What primary source, or sources, can you cite, re "in the ECH jets are an electrical discharge phenomena"?

3) Per the ECH, what are the two (or more) 'ends' of the electrical discharge(s) that are comet jets? Or, what acts as electrodes?

I think that will do for now; I look forward to continuing to discuss comet jets in the ECH.

Thanks for reminding me JeanTate.

Comets are chunks of rock covered in dust. When a combination of factors come into play with their changing electrical enviroment they respond electrically. We see these same process's happen at various power levels on various moons, including our own Lunar, as well as ALL planets in our solar system.

The ELECTRIC SUN is the main instigator in this process with it's large but weak electric field. I mean this should now be indisputable...just google "NASA + Stringy Things" and "Flux Ropes" and "Flux Tubes" "Solar wind electric fields" "Magnetic Bubbles" "Electron Beams + Moon" "Ion fountains + Moon"

but again we digress from the EC.

If we model comets a little more like we do the moon, I'm sure the surprise that mainstream express would be tempered.

as an example:

Electric Moon Jolts the Solar Wind Did they just say ELECTRIC MOON??? anywhoo, just for this thought experiment JeanTate, lets replace the Moon with what we the EC mob think a comets is, ROCK, much the same as our Moon is.
 
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Electric Moon Jolts the Solar Wind

Now, a powerful combination of spacecraft and computer simulations is revealing that the moon does indeed have a far-reaching, invisible influence – not on us, but on the Sun, or more specifically, the solar wind.
So maths and "stuff"

The solar wind is a thin stream of electrically conducting gas called plasma that's constantly blown off the surface of the Sun in all directions at around a million miles per hour.
So not just a Gas but something special PLASMA

Unlike Earth, the moon is not surrounded by a global magnetic field. "It was thought that the solar wind crashes into the lunar surface without any warning or 'push back' on the solar wind," says Dr. Andrew Poppe of the University of California, Berkeley. Recently, however, an international fleet of lunar-orbiting spacecraft has detected signs of the moon's presence "upstream" in the solar wind. "We've seen electron beams and ion fountains over the moon's day side," says Dr. Jasper Halekas, also of the University of California, Berkeley.
So not just a mechanical impact, so they thought wrong or you could say ASSUMED according to the mainstream theory.

Computer simulations help explain these observations by showing that a complex electric field near the lunar surface is generated by sunlight and the flow of the solar wind. The simulation reveals this electric field can generate electron beams by accelerating electrons blasted from surface material by solar ultraviolet light. Also, related simulations show that when ions in the solar wind collide with ancient, "fossil" magnetic fields in certain areas on the lunar surface, they are reflected back into space in a diffuse, fountain-shaped pattern. These ions are mostly the positively charged ions (protons) of hydrogen atoms, the most common element in the solar wind.
Mmmm.....now moving away from mechanical and toward the electric

"It's remarkable that electric and magnetic fields within just a few meters (yards) of the lunar surface can cause the turbulence we see thousands of kilometers away," says Poppe. When exposed to solar winds, other moons and asteroids in the solar system should have this turbulent layer over their day sides as well, according to the team.
Absolutely remarkable!!!....for the mainstream.

"Discovering more about this layer will enhance our understanding of the moon and potentially other bodies because it allows information about conditions very near the surface to propagate to great distances, so a spacecraft will gain the ability to virtually explore close to these objects when it's actually far away," said Halekas.
Didn't they find the same with Halley, way back in the 80's????

Abstract: A few hours prior to the crossing of the Comet Halley bow shock, the Giotto spacecraft intermittently encountered an electron foreshock region. The electron foreshock is characterized by magnetic connection to the cometary bow shock and increased field aligned electron heat flux directed away from the bow shock. A similar region was intermittently encountered by the ICE spacecraft prior to its crossing of the Giacobini-Zinner bow wave. During periods of magnetic connection with the Halley bow shock, enhanced magnetic field fluctuations were observed. These enhancements are interpreted as indirect evidence of an ion foreshock in the electron foreshock. No clearly identifiable backstreaming protons are observed during these periods of magnetic connection, however, because it may be difficult to separate a backstreaming population from the cometary pick-up proton population already present in the upstream region.
 
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Ah, the one where the simulation ends up with there being zero stars in the regions between the arms of spiral galaxies, when in reality those regions have a star density of around 80% to 90% of the arms.

Really, Mathew Cline can you point me in the direction of that finding?

Oh that's because we didn't use any fudge factor i.e
Galaxy formation in the Plasma Universe is modeled as two adjacent interacting Birkeland filaments. The simulation produces a flat rotation curve, but no hypothetical dark matter is needed, as required by the conventional model of galaxy formation.

but again we slip from the topic THE ELECTRIC COMET

Now back to them pesky jets...
 
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One problem I have with the EC/U idea is that it has no predictive power. There is no model. I see a lot of "well it looks like X to me" and that seems to be taken as gospel.

Our physical universe is one that can be described with mathematics. This consistency has allowed us to punt rovers from Earth to Mars with pinpoint accuracy and land a probe on a small, moving comet. It's allowed us to kick long-range probes into deep space via well-timed gravity boosts. It helped land men on the moon and get them back safely, multiple times. This is all math (or maths if you prefer). It works.

Heck, even GPS is based off of mathematical models; general and special relativity cause an observable effect upon GPS satellites.

If EC/U has a workable model, I'm just not seeing it. There is a very tenuous hypothesis with multiple contradictory and mutually exclusive explanations being proposed.
 
Really, Mathew Cline can you point me in the direction of that finding?

Oh that's because we didn't use any fudge factor i.e

but again we slip from the topic THE ELECTRIC COMET

Now back to them pesky jets...


Yes, the JETS from Electric Comet 67P are going to settle things. When is the Rosetta crowd going to show the latest data on the JETS ?

tusenfem, our inside man at ESA, do you know ? Are you allowed to tell us ? Sitting at the edge of my seat here waiting ;)

Still ... some close up pictures of it really are excellent and not at all what a Dirty Snowball comet was supposed to look like and the comet song is kinda catchy ... but Hey! it's all good for an Electric Comet hypothesis

THE Rosetta: Comet 67P/C:G, CLOSE UP! Comet Anomalies
From The Rosetta Comet Landing, Comet Anomalies, Images of the comet 67P soft landing? on the surface of comet,........ 67P/C-G was successfully completed? on Nov. 12th, 2014, when 67P makes its closest approach to the sun. The comet takes 6.5 years to complete one orbit, and its path takes 67P as close to our star as 115 million miles (186 million km) — about 1.25 times the sun-Earth distance.



Secrets of High-Power Comet Observing
One of the most curious features within a jet is a knot of material that can easily be misidentified as a secondary nucleus. Secondary nuclei usually migrate tailward over several nights. So be leery of bright spots in the Sunward direction; these are probably clumps of gas and dust shooting off the nucleus within the jets. Many times the knots are brighter than the jets themselves, so a bright knot in a faint or invisible jet will certainly cause alarm! Comet Hale-Bopp exhibited several intense knots, especially in one strong and persistent north-pointing jet, during its passage around the Sun. -

What's this curious knot feature within a jet ???

tusenfem do you know ? Do you think 67P will display them when it becomes more active ? What's the mainstream explanation for knots in comet jets ?

Sounds very e/m like to me :p
 
One problem I have with the EC/U idea is that it has no predictive power. There is no model. I see a lot of "well it looks like X to me" and that seems to be taken as gospel.

Don't think you are really trying to see it !

Below is a collection of predictions based on Electric Universe principles, which have been confirmed by observations and data click HERE

Vermonter said:
Our physical universe is one that can be described with mathematics. This consistency has allowed us to punt rovers from Earth to Mars with pinpoint accuracy and land a probe on a small, moving comet. It's allowed us to kick long-range probes into deep space via well-timed gravity boosts. It helped land men on the moon and get them back safely, multiple times. This is all math (or maths if you prefer). It works.

Heck, even GPS is based off of mathematical models; general and special relativity cause an observable effect upon GPS satellites.

Again, I don't you are really trying !

Miles Mathis said:
Addendum: a kind reader just pointed me to a paper at The Space Review2 from 2008 by Stuart Harris. This paper reviews the controversy anew, and ends by calling Richard Hoagland a "notorious miscalculator." Again, I am not here to defend Richard Hoagland, but I can show that Stuart Harris is not only a terrible and purposeful miscalculator, he is also probably a propagandist paid by NASA to continue to blow dust. We can see this immediately when he says that the rocket was "a cruel three minutes later than would be predicted by the theoretical equation for T," then immediately shows the math, and his own math shows more than ten minutes difference. He even states it explicitly: "planned T = 104.5 min ; actual T = 114.8 min." I guess he thinks we can't subtract one number from another.

He then does some more fudging to bring that number down to around 9 minutes, saying that Goldstone, the point of acquisition of signal, was 36o from Canaveral, so the rocket had only gone 90% of its orbit. Two problems with that argument, 1) in that case the rocket should have been early, not late. If Harris is claiming a miscalculation by Von Braun, then a rocket will reach 90% before 100%, no? 2) all this requires we believe Von Braun didn't know that Canaveral and Goldstone were separated by some distance. Is Harris claiming that NASA doesn't own maps? Actually, there is a third problem, and that is that 9 minutes is still not "three cruel minutes."
click HERE for links to full story :)
 
One problem I have with the EC/U idea is that it has no predictive power. There is no model. I see a lot of "well it looks like X to me" and that seems to be taken as gospel.

Our physical universe is one that can be described with mathematics. This consistency has allowed us to punt rovers from Earth to Mars with pinpoint accuracy and land a probe on a small, moving comet. It's allowed us to kick long-range probes into deep space via well-timed gravity boosts. It helped land men on the moon and get them back safely, multiple times. This is all math (or maths if you prefer). It works.

Heck, even GPS is based off of mathematical models; general and special relativity cause an observable effect upon GPS satellites.

If EC/U has a workable model, I'm just not seeing it. There is a very tenuous hypothesis with multiple contradictory and mutually exclusive explanations being proposed.

Kudos, well done and a pat on the back...but then the maths ran into problems so they invented to save the maths black holes, the old school boy howler were the smartest mathematicians dived by ZERO and came up with the greatest force in the universe able to do anything they so desire of it.

Then came dark energy to save some more maths....and then dark energy......so on and so on. The other thing they like to do is say it was long ago and hidden out of view.

So in my humble opinion mainstream has no predictive powers with regard to high energy phenomena seen in space in the modern era.

But if your happy with ballistics which is all you've really done then :roll eyes:


Now anyone like to talk jets?
 
Kudos, well done and a pat on the back...but then the maths ran into problems so they invented to save the maths black holes, the old school boy howler were the smartest mathematicians dived by ZERO and came up with the greatest force in the universe able to do anything they so desire of it.

Then came dark energy to save some more maths....and then dark energy......so on and so on. The other thing they like to do is say it was long ago and hidden out of view.

So in my humble opinion mainstream has no predictive powers with regard to high energy phenomena seen in space in the modern era.

But if your happy with ballistics which is all you've really done then :roll eyes:


Now anyone like to talk jets?

Not to be snide, but I have actually taken several college-level courses in astronomy while pursuing my degree. Do you have a citation for "invented to save the maths"?

I'm not sure if I accept dark energy or dark matter as they have been proposed, though I suspect that dark matter is non-baryonic in nature and it does not interact with the electromagnetic force in any observable way, but primarily through gravity alone. We lack the proper equipment to directly detect it, rather observe the peripheral effects it has on other objects. However, that's another discussion for another day.

Black holes are an extremely fascinating phenomenon. We're still scraping the surface of what they are in terms of stellar bodies, but the observations thus far help shed light upon their nature. Have you ever studied pulsars? They, too, are fascinating little balls of matter. Their rotational periods are on the order of milliseconds. You can even listen to the radio waves given off by them. There's a model that describes the life of a star from formation to death, and beyond.

What is the EC/U model for stellar formation? Stellar death? How are bodies (such as comets) formed? What happens when a star runs out of fuel? Granted, these are ancillary to the "electric comet" part but since Haig insists that they're all related and required for one another my comments seem germane.

My paragraph on ballistics was meant to display how models can and do work in reality. Bear in mind that those responsible for ballistic trajectories much also account for electromagnetic radiation and interference. Considering the success rate of the various probes and rovers, I would say that we understand electromagnetism pretty well. At least well enough to factor it into the designs of our probes. Our deep-space probes didn't explode upon reaching some magical point in space, and neither have any of our stellar-distance probes orbiting various bodies. If every body in the solar system has some kind of voltage differential, how come our probes have not exploded in a fantastic fireworks display? Why did Philae not explode when it landed upon the electric comet?

The arrogance is astounding.
 
Not to be snide, but I have actually taken several college-level courses in astronomy while pursuing my degree. Do you have a citation for "invented to save the maths"?

Seems that's the problem, you are telling the story as told to you.

And also, not to be snide but have a read up on what the EU say on all your above points, you'd be surprised.
 
My paragraph on ballistics was meant to display how models can and do work in reality. Bear in mind that those responsible for ballistic trajectories much also account for electromagnetic radiation and interference. Considering the success rate of the various probes and rovers, I would say that we understand electromagnetism pretty well. At least well enough to factor it into the designs of our probes. Our deep-space probes didn't explode upon reaching some magical point in space, and neither have any of our stellar-distance probes orbiting various bodies. If every body in the solar system has some kind of voltage differential, how come our probes have not exploded in a fantastic fireworks display? Why did Philae not explode when it landed upon the electric comet?

The arrogance is astounding.

Oh you understand it very well problem is mainstream has just treated it as a problem...Space Charge when it should be the source of power like the STS-75 mission. We found the keys to the Universe and then promptly forgot about it, why? ;) the dust bunnys seemed very interested in what we were doing!
 
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Seems that's the problem, you are telling the story as told to you.

And also, not to be snide but have a read up on what the EU say on all your above points, you'd be surprised.

Please, open up a college textbook in astronomy and read it. It's not a bedtime story meant to be accepted as gospel. I'm serious, find a good textbook about astronomy and read it. If you think that all astronomers and astrophysicists all indoctrinated into The Official Story and unable to come up with any original ideas, then I am sad to say that you are mistaken.

Textbooks actually explain how the models came to be and how they are used. You can use them to check the work of others. I've yet to see EC/U produce anything close to that. What's the voltage differential between the sun and a given object at radius R? What happens when two objects orbit near one another? Do they discharge due to a voltage differential? How? Do objects gain charge through orbital dynamics? How is this charge stored, and what is the mechanism that drives it? The "looks like a bunny" routine fails at every level.

Give us a way to test the idea. Please.
 
Good morning Haig.
<irrelevant stuff snipped>

Hey JeanTate no comment on The SAFIRE Project latest ? Don't disappoint me now :rolleyes:

The SAFIRE Project and JMP®: What Makes Our Sun Shine?



Links can be found HERE
I responded to your posts on SAFIRE twice, in post #1830 (23rd November 2014), and in post #1837 (same date).

As you did not reply, I assumed you had no interest in SAFIRE.

Would you be so kind as to reply to my two earlier posts, Haig? Then we can continue to discuss SAFIRE (at least as it pertains to the ech).
 
Good morning, Sol88.
JeanTate said:
Happy New Year again, Sol88
Sol88 said:
I have never said it was not standard physics it's just never been apllied to comets i.e we have never, before the Rosetta mission, probed for dusty plasma. it's allways about the sublimating ice.
Do you mind if I ask, how did you come to this conclusion?
Because that's what we, the gullible public, have been told...time and time again and if you don't believe us then we'll dazzle you with some maths.

and if you can't do the maths yourself then how would you know what we are talking about?
Thanks.

It seems my question was unclear to you; let me rephrase it.

Sol88, how did you come to the conclusion that the physics of dusty plasmas had never been applied to comets ("before the Rosetta mission")?

To explain a bit: as you have not - until very recently - cited any primary sources, I suspect that you are unfamiliar with the many thousands of papers published on comets, dating back many decades. Let alone the many thousand conference presentations. So I rather doubt that you have done any work to go look for references to "dusty plasmas" in comets.
 
HNY to you too, Haig.
Hey JeanTate, you don't get it do you ?
Actually, it is rather you who missed my point.

You see, one way to read my post was as a critique of your methods. Specifically, an indirect way of saying that you appear to do no critical thinking, that what you post is mostly link spam.

This response of yours rather confirms my critique, wouldn't you say?

I mean, one of your sources has an astonishing claim, a claim which can be tested rather easily. I did such a test, and it seems Mathis' "MATH" is inconsistent with the reality of my sting, pin, and leads. Another of your sources is strong on the importance of direct evidence. Your two sources are in conflict, yet you seem to feel there's no problem with continuing to link spam such sources, and not discuss them.

If one were to say that you are no different from a troll, based on evidence such as this, they'd likely have a strong case, wouldn't you say?

Miles Mathis was for the MATH MATH MATH guys on here :)
So, you never had any intention of actually discussing anything in the quotes and links?

<link spam snipped>

btw Happy New Year :)
 
Good morning again, Sol88.
Equations and stuff, with "stuff" being assumptions.

That's the real kicker here, the mainstream assume X and the Electric Universe assumes Y.

<other stuff snipped>
What are "X" and "Y", may I ask?

More accurately, what do you consider "X" and "Y" to be?

If you could, please limit your scope to the ech.
 
Hello again, Sol88.
JeanTate said:
Hello again, Sol88.
(my bold)

As you yourself have chosen to bring up the topic of jets, I think this might be a good time to remind you - and readers in general - that I had asked you about jets some time ago. And that you have yet to address my questions. So I'll repeat them here (source):

Let me ask you about jets, electrical discharge phenomena, and the ECH, OK?

1) How do you get from:
* there is an electric field centered approximately on the Sun AND
* comets are homogeneous 'rock'
to:
* the observed comet jets are an electrical discharge phenomena?

Would you please walk me through the logical steps from premises to conclusion?

2) What primary source, or sources, can you cite, re "in the ECH jets are an electrical discharge phenomena"?

3) Per the ECH, what are the two (or more) 'ends' of the electrical discharge(s) that are comet jets? Or, what acts as electrodes?

I think that will do for now; I look forward to continuing to discuss comet jets in the ECH.
Thanks for reminding me JeanTate.
You're welcome.

Comets are chunks of rock covered in dust. When a combination of factors come into play with their changing electrical enviroment they respond electrically. We see these same process's happen at various power levels on various moons, including our own Lunar, as well as ALL planets in our solar system.
That's it?

That's your complete answer to my 1)?

1) How do you get from:
* there is an electric field centered approximately on the Sun AND
* comets are homogeneous 'rock'
to:
* the observed comet jets are an electrical discharge phenomena?

Would you please walk me through the logical steps from premises to conclusion?

The ELECTRIC SUN is the main instigator in this process with it's large but weak electric field.

<irrelevant stuff snipped>

but again we digress from the EC.

<irrelevant stuff snipped>
Yes, let's.

How about some answers to my two other questions, 2) and 3)?

2) What primary source, or sources, can you cite, re "in the ECH jets are an electrical discharge phenomena"?

3) Per the ECH, what are the two (or more) 'ends' of the electrical discharge(s) that are comet jets? Or, what acts as electrodes?

Despite your obvious ability to understand English, you seem to have failed - rather spectacularly - to understand my 1). So how about I try to rephrase it?

How does there is an electric field centered approximately on the Sun and Comets are chunks of rock covered in dust (I've incorporated your non-ech variation) lead to the observed comet jets are an electrical discharge phenomena?
 
Good morning again, Haig.
Yes, the JETS from Electric Comet 67P are going to settle things. When is the Rosetta crowd going to show the latest data on the JETS ?

tusenfem, our inside man at ESA, do you know ? Are you allowed to tell us ? Sitting at the edge of my seat here waiting ;)

Still ... some close up pictures of it really are excellent and not at all what a Dirty Snowball comet was supposed to look like and the comet song is kinda catchy ... but Hey! it's all good for an Electric Comet hypothesis

THE Rosetta: Comet 67P/C:G, CLOSE UP! Comet Anomalies




Secrets of High-Power Comet Observing


What's this curious knot feature within a jet ???

tusenfem do you know ? Do you think 67P will display them when it becomes more active ? What's the mainstream explanation for knots in comet jets ?

Sounds very e/m like to me :p
As you have now started to post on jets and the ech, perhaps you'd like to try to answer the three simple questions I asked Sol88 on this, questions he seems to be having a lot of difficulty with. No "MATH" involved, I promise.

1) How do you get from:
* there is an electric field centered approximately on the Sun AND
* comets are homogeneous 'rock' (possibly covered in dust, per Sol88)
to:
* the observed comet jets are an electrical discharge phenomena?

Would you please walk me through the logical steps from premises to conclusion?

2) What primary source, or sources, can you cite, re "in the ECH jets are an electrical discharge phenomena"?

3) Per the ECH, what are the two (or more) 'ends' of the electrical discharge(s) that are comet jets? Or, what acts as electrodes?

Thanks in advance.
 
Good morning again, Sol88.
Seems that's the problem, you are telling the story as told to you.

And also, not to be snide but have a read up on what the EU say on all your above points, you'd be surprised.
Let's get back to them pesky jets, shall we?

2) What primary source, or sources, can you cite, re "in the ECH jets are an electrical discharge phenomena"?

3) Per the ECH, what are the two (or more) 'ends' of the electrical discharge(s) that are comet jets? Or, what acts as electrodes?
 
Good morning Haig.

I responded to your posts on SAFIRE twice, in post #1830 (23rd November 2014), and in post #1837 (same date).

As you did not reply, I assumed you had no interest in SAFIRE.

Would you be so kind as to reply to my two earlier posts, Haig? Then we can continue to discuss SAFIRE (at least as it pertains to the ech).

Don't you know never to assume ! because if you do you make an ass/u/me :D

Sorry I couldn't resist :blush: I was taught that in primary school and it's the only thing I remember :rolleyes:

Well JeanTate you did disappoint me but it's no surprise. I had a slim hope that a "citizen scientist" as you claim to be would like to comment on the recent findings of the first of three phases of research known as SAFIRE (Stellar Atmospheric Function in Regulation Experiment)

The SAFIRE Project and JMP®: What Makes Our Sun Shine?
Published on 30 Sep 2014
Why does the surface of the sun operate in the 3,000-4,000 K range, while the solar corona exhibits temperatures in the millions of degrees? How do the known current sheets attach our Earth to the sun? And why are they there? We use JMP software for our study. Read the paper by Paul E. Anderson, Montgomery Childs, and Michael Clarage given at 2014 JMP Discovery Summit.

Oh dear, never mind :)
 
HNY to you too, Haig.

Actually, it is rather you who missed my point.

You see, one way to read my post was as a critique of your methods. Specifically, an indirect way of saying that you appear to do no critical thinking, that what you post is mostly link spam.

This response of yours rather confirms my critique, wouldn't you say?

I mean, one of your sources has an astonishing claim, a claim which can be tested rather easily. I did such a test, and it seems Mathis' "MATH" is inconsistent with the reality of my sting, pin, and leads. Another of your sources is strong on the importance of direct evidence. Your two sources are in conflict, yet you seem to feel there's no problem with continuing to link spam such sources, and not discuss them.

If one were to say that you are no different from a troll, based on evidence such as this, they'd likely have a strong case, wouldn't you say?


So, you never had any intention of actually discussing anything in the quotes and links?

Well JeanTate, your point is ALL too obvious :D

So tackling Miles Mathis is beyond you and it was only these three papers, related to the Electric Sun, I was asking for a critique of !

Well JeanTate you did disappoint me yet AGAIN but it's no surprise. I had a slim hope that a "citizen scientist" as you claim to be would like to comment on these papers

haig post 3367 said:
Hey JeanTate, you don't get it do you ?

Miles Mathis was for the MATH MATH MATH guys on here

Feel free to knock yourself out on his Electric Sun stuff below (charge is electrical right?)

From my post HERE ...

Originally Posted by Haig
Can you Tom debate Miles Mathis on these ? or can anyone else ?

Don't go for the man (I doubt you can resist) what are the arguments against his math and logic in these three papers.

Miles Mathis isn't in the EU / PC crowd and he certainly isn't in the mainstream, he's kinda unique but in discussions of an Electric Sun and with his focus on "charge" as one of the overlooked factors of an electrical nature should / must be included IMHO

The Cause of the Solar Cycle PDF
Originally Posted by Miles Mathis
It has been known for a long time that the main Solar cycle is about 11 years, but that is just an average. It goes from a minimum of about 9 years up to about 14 years. Although some theories have been presented, the cause of all three numbers is unknown. I will show you the correct answer here.

The reason I so quickly hit on the right answer is that I knew where to look. In my other long paper on Sun cycles (ice ages), I have already shown that Jupiter is the cause of the secondary variance. In this
case we will see that Jupiter is the cause of the primary variance. Upon reading the NASA data, Jupiter is the first place I looked. The NASA writers even give us a hidden clue, though it is doubtful anyone but me tripped over it.
Originally Posted by Miles Mathis
The fact that the alignment of Jupiter/Uranus is determining this maximum in 2012 is what has made it strange and small. In 2012, we finally hit our first peak of the cycle, and that is when Uranus is still near the line, Saturn is near the line, and Neptune is moving toward it again. Although none are strictly aligned with Jupiter, this near alignment of all four planets is about the best we are going to get in this weak cycle.

Saturn is now (late 2014) moving toward 90, so we are moving toward a minimum. But we are not moving very positively toward it even this late in the cycle, since Neptune is going to opposition. This will stretch the peak of cycle 24, pushing it well into 2015. The slope of the graph won't really start to drop strongly until after Neptune moves off the line. This will cause a pretty precipitous drop from 2015 to 2018. In 2018, Saturn will be at about 45, Neptune will at about 90, and Uranus will be at 90. So you can see easily the cause of the minimum there.

Magnetic Reconnection and Coronal Temperatures PDF
Originally Posted by Miles Mathis
At any rate, I have long had a simple mechanical theory for charge effects: it has been part of my unified field for years. But until now I have not connected it to the corona. Even when I wrote a paper on the Sun a couple of years ago, I had nothing much to say about the creation of the coronal energy. But now that I have used the charge field to explain the brightness of planets, moons, and comets—via magnetic interaction—I now have a mechanism for the corona. Some of my readers understood me
immediately, and made the connection before I even got here. They wrote and asked me if the brightness of Enceldaus was linked to the heat of the corona. Rather than just say “yes,” I decided to write this paper for all my readers, making the connection explicit.

In those previous papers on comets and moons, I showed how the spins on the photons could cause the unexplained brightness. We only require photons meeting anti-photons, and charge recycling—along with an ambient field—was able to explain both. In short, all spherical bodies from electrons to
galaxies recycle charge. The spin of the sphere in an ambient field naturally creates field potentials which draw photons in at the poles and emit them most heavily at the equator. This emitted charge then rejoins the ambient field at a boundary, and this rejoining can cause spin cancellations. In the right circumstances, these spin cancellations can cause big effects, and that is what we are seeing with increased brightness. It is also what we are seeing with the corona

The Heliospheric Current Sheet PDF
Originally Posted by Miles Mathis
Ethan Siegel and Xiaoying Xu of the University of Arizona analyzed the distribution of dark matter in our Solar System, and found that the mass of dark matter is 300 times more than that of the galactic halo average, and the density is 16,000 times higher than that of the background dark matter.

You know what, they are right, except for one thing. That isn't dark matter they are calculating, it is charge. There is always going to be more charge in the vicinity of baryonic matter, as we have known for 200 years. Benjamin Franklin put the charge signs on matter, and we still do. We have always defined charge as a relationship of matter, so of course it is going to exist with more density around matter. I have shown why this is: matter recycles charge. Spinning protons, neutrons, and electrons recycle charge photons, and the spins and photons are real. Everything involved has mass, spin, and radius. Nothing is virtual. Nothing comes out of the vacuum or returns into it.

But they pretend not to be able to figure this out. In the new articles, they tell us that there seems to be a mysterious link between dark matter and baryonic matter, since there is more dark matter in the vicinity of baryonic matter. They ask, “How do dark matter and baryonic matter interact?”

According to consensus among cosmologists, dark matter is believed to be composed primarily of a new, not yet characterized, type of subatomic particle. The search for this particle, by a variety of means, is one of the major efforts in particle physics today.

You have to be kidding me. How about the subatomic particle we call the photon? Like dark matter, it doesn't react with E/M fields, and it creates a field that is “transparent.” It is so transparent, we have forgotten all about it, apparently. It has become transparent to our physics.

All this was caused by refusing to assign charge to a real field. Currently, it is mediated by a messenger photon, which is virtual. Imaginary. Therefore, charge currently has no real presence in the field. Which is why, when we come across new evidence indicating the presence of a powerful field of
particles, we forget about charge. “Charge is nothing, just imaginary field potentials, so we need a new field to explain new data!” Perverse.

To see mainstream physicists continue to assign all new things to dark matter is perverse, considering that they already have a field that contains it and explains it, without mystery. Why would they do that? Well, in addition to the ascendance and takeover of science fiction, we have the longstanding fact that physicists do not want to rewrite their field equations again. They had enough trouble adding Relativity to them, and they don't want to add charge, too. It would require too much work (they think). They think they have proof of the gravity-only field (since their equations work pretty well),
and this allows them to keep the field they inherited from Laplace centuries ago. Besides, they just spent decades belittling all the “cranks” who wanted to add charge or E/M to the field. The Velikovsky affair is still warm in some places, and to admit Velikovsky was even partially right about anything is
too painful for them. So it is easier to hide and misdirect than to look directly at the evidence in front of them.

However, I have done the work for them, and it turns out they can keep a lot of their old prize equations. The revolution will turn out to be a lot less messy than they have thought. It is far simpler than anyone imagined, because their old fields already contained charge. They just didn't know it. The charge field is already inside Newton's gravity field, in the constant G. And since General Relativity was just the addition of transforms to Newton, Einstein's equations already contain charge as well. And charge is already inside the Lagrangian, too, as I have shown.

That's right. The unified field was hiding in plain sight, too. It has been hiding inside G for centuries. Because it was already in the Newtonian field equations, we don't have to rewrite anything. We just have to re-expand and re-interpret what we already had.
Oh dear, never mind :p
 
Good morning again, Haig.

As you have now started to post on jets and the ech, perhaps you'd like to try to answer the three simple questions I asked Sol88 on this, questions he seems to be having a lot of difficulty with. No "MATH" involved, I promise.

1) How do you get from:
* there is an electric field centered approximately on the Sun AND
* comets are homogeneous 'rock' (possibly covered in dust, per Sol88)
to:
* the observed comet jets are an electrical discharge phenomena?

Would you please walk me through the logical steps from premises to conclusion?

2) What primary source, or sources, can you cite, re "in the ECH jets are an electrical discharge phenomena"?

3) Per the ECH, what are the two (or more) 'ends' of the electrical discharge(s) that are comet jets? Or, what acts as electrodes?

Thanks in advance.

Not until YOU answer my posts above.

Failing that response ... your arguments are NOT worth bothering with imho and can go your merry way, bye bye :D
 
Good morning again, Haig.
Don't you know never to assume ! because if you do you make an ass/u/me :D

Sorry I couldn't resist :blush: I was taught that in primary school and it's the only thing I remember :rolleyes:

Well JeanTate you did disappoint me but it's no surprise. I had a slim hope that a "citizen scientist" as you claim to be would like to comment on the recent findings of the first of three phases of research known as SAFIRE (Stellar Atmospheric Function in Regulation Experiment)

The SAFIRE Project and JMP®: What Makes Our Sun Shine?


Oh dear, never mind :)
Yes, you're right; I should not assume.

Haig, before I comment, may I ask, did you read the PDF? Did you watch the video?

Assuming that you did (I am just being cautious, I don't doubt that you did):

What key questions occurred to you?

How accurate did you find the intro/background to be?
 
Thanks for taking the trouble to respond, Haig.
Well JeanTate, your point is ALL too obvious :D

So tackling Miles Mathis is beyond you and it was only these three papers, related to the Electric Sun, I was asking for a critique of !
Actually, if you read what you originally wrote, I think you'll see that that's not true.

Well JeanTate you did disappoint me yet AGAIN but it's no surprise. I had a slim hope that a "citizen scientist" as you claim to be would like to comment on these papers


Oh dear, never mind :p
Hmm ... nothing in any of that material on the ech, Haig, not directly or indirectly. Or at least, not that I could see. But perhaps you have sharper eyes than I have? Would you please point out - explicitly, and clearly - which parts of these three "papers" has direct relevance to the ech?

As others have pointed out - repeatedly - there are already other threads, here in the ISF, on topics such as the electric Sun. If you are interested in discussing them, why not post there?
 
Hello again, Haig.
Not until YOU answer my posts above.

Failing that response ... your arguments are NOT worth bothering with imho and can go your merry way, bye bye :D
Got it.

You do not wish to engage in any discussion of the electric comet hypothesis (ech). Instead, you prefer to link spam this thread with irrelevancies.

Thank you for being so honest.
 
Hey JeanTate no comment on The SAFIRE Project latest ? Don't disappoint me now :rolleyes:

The SAFIRE Project and JMP®: What Makes Our Sun Shine?



Links can be found HERE


Well, I had a look at the PDF and only the ignorant would think there's real science being done here. I've used JMP for real-world design of experiments and it's clear that SAFIRE are just using it as lipstick for their pig. DOX is used to better understand and optimize the parameters of a stable process, that is, a process that does not have unknown causes of variability and for which there is a mathematical model, however basic. In particular, DOX is used to discover higher order interactions between the input parameters. It is not used to characterize an unknown or novel process, which is how SAFIRE presents the phenomena demonstrated by their apparatus. I suspect that real plasma physicists could accurately predict what SAFIRE could have expected from their setup, that is if they didn't hide the details of their anode/cathode configuration by claiming it's "proprietary"; see top of page 3. (Really? What are they going to do, patent it and market it?)

More JMP: in figure 3 they show results of a regression analysis. The input (x-axis) is "predicted anode voltage" and the output (y-axis) is actual (measured) anode voltage. Within unstated measurement error, predicted and actual seem to be the same. I suspect this is a trivial, perhaps meaningless relationship but I'll gladly retract this based on input to the contrary from a professional. JMP can easily produce an equation for the regression line; why is that not shown?

I also watched the Monty Childs SAFIRE videos and here are a couple of bits I think are significant. In part 1,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiIR6QOLPo4&spfreload=10, he dismisses the entire standard model of solar luminosity in a couple of sentences, saying it's "too complicated" and "untestable"; see from about 10:05 to 10:50. It reminds me of Saglieri's criticism of Mozart's music in the movie Mozart: "It has too many notes".

Second bit from part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpYDPdobASI&spfreload=10. From about 20:10 to 21:10 is the most outrageous example of LLAB (Looks Like A Bunny) "physics" I've seen yet from the Electric Everything crowd. A photo of a laboratory plasma from Birkeland is juxtaposed with a photo of Saturn and it's rings, implying that Saturn's rings are a plasma phenomenon. Let's all just pretend the findings of the Cassini mission don't exist.

Yes, Haig, real science can be complicated and certainly astrophysics requires mathematics if you want to make a meaningful contribution. One of your recurring conceits is that our standard models are based on math and not observation and experiment. In real-world science, math and experiment are an iterative cycle of prediction, measurement and correction, leading to improved predictions. You persist in characterizing the corrections as weakness so you can pose the same god-of-the-gaps false dichotomy used by creationists. "Your theory doesn't explain all observations perfectly so our unevidenced assertions must be correct". In fact the real reason EU/ES/ECH proponents, paladin17 excepted, refuse to do even simple algebraic back-of-the-envelope math is that math is objective. Rhetoric offers endless opportunity for obfuscation and misdirection; when you present math, you have to put your cards on the table.


Let me predict your response, Haig: more link spamming. Feel free to instead provide something substantive.

ferd

ETA: Apologies to all for pursuing issues that are off-topic. Haig, if you do reply, please do so in an appropriate thread and just direct me there from this thread--thanks.
 
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Well, I had a look at the PDF and only the ignorant would think there's real science being done here. I've used JMP for real-world design of experiments and it's clear that SAFIRE are just using it as lipstick for their pig. DOX is used to better understand and optimize the parameters of a stable process, that is, a process that does not have unknown causes of variability and for which there is a mathematical model, however basic. In particular, DOX is used to discover higher order interactions between the input parameters. It is not used to characterize an unknown or novel process, which is how SAFIRE presents the phenomena demonstrated by their apparatus. I suspect that real plasma physicists could accurately predict what SAFIRE could have expected from their setup, that is if they didn't hide the details of their anode/cathode configuration by claiming it's "proprietary"; see top of page 3. (Really? What are they going to do, patent it and market it?)

More JMP: in figure 3 they show results of a regression analysis. The input (x-axis) is "predicted anode voltage" and the output (y-axis) is actual (measured) anode voltage. Within unstated measurement error, predicted and actual seem to be the same. I suspect this is a trivial, perhaps meaningless relationship but I'll gladly retract this based on input to the contrary from a professional. JMP can easily produce an equation for the regression line; why is that not shown?

I also watched the Monty Childs SAFIRE videos and here are a couple of bits I think are significant. In part 1,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiIR6QOLPo4&spfreload=10, he dismisses the entire standard model of solar luminosity in a couple of sentences, saying it's "too complicated" and "untestable"; see from about 10:05 to 10:50. It reminds me of Saglieri's criticism of Mozart's music in the movie Mozart: "It has too many notes".

Second bit from part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpYDPdobASI&spfreload=10. From about 20:10 to 21:10 is the most outrageous example of LLAB (Looks Like A Bunny) "physics" I've seen yet from the Electric Everything crowd. A photo of a laboratory plasma from Birkeland is juxtaposed with a photo of Saturn and it's rings, implying that Saturn's rings are a plasma phenomenon. Let's all just pretend the findings of the Cassini mission don't exist.

Yes, Haig, real science can be complicated and certainly astrophysics requires mathematics if you want to make a meaningful contribution. One of your recurring conceits is that our standard models are based on math and not observation and experiment. In real-world science, math and experiment are an iterative cycle of prediction, measurement and correction, leading to improved predictions. You persist in characterizing the corrections as weakness so you can pose the same god-of-the-gaps false dichotomy used by creationists. "Your theory doesn't explain all observations perfectly so our unevidenced assertions must be correct". In fact the real reason EU/ES/ECH proponents, paladin17 excepted, refuse to do even simple algebraic back-of-the-envelope math is that math is objective. Rhetoric offers endless opportunity for obfuscation and misdirection; when you present math, you have to put your cards on the table.


Let me predict your response, Haig: more link spamming. Feel free to instead provide something substantive.

ferd

ETA: Apologies to all for pursuing issues that are off-topic. Haig, if you do reply, please do so in an appropriate thread and just direct me there from this thread--thanks.

No need to apologise ferd Electric Comets need an Electric Sun

So it's ok to discuss The SAFIRE Project on the Electric Sun a bit ;)

Thank you sincerely for expressing your view on it : "only the ignorant , as lipstick for their pig, this is a trivial, perhaps meaningless relationship, the most outrageous example of LLAB (Looks Like A Bunny) "physics" I've seen yet," Yes your choice of language is most telling but a lot milder than I expected .... Ah! progress :D

So, obviously, ... "testing revealed structurally similar discharges on the anode that were very similar to the sun’s plasma (Figure 9). Double layers, caused by charge (+/-) separation in plasmas, which produce granules and cellular layers in plasmas, were visually and/or qualitatively observed near the surface of the anode. The sun too exhibits extensive charge separation, temperature changes, and granulation as a function of distance from the core. The sun exhibits coronal ejections; the anode exhibited eruptions at regular intervals. The sun goes through emission solar cycles; the anode exhibited regular pulses despite a fully regulated DC input and clean power supply. The sun possesses a higher coronal temperature at a farther distance from the core as gauged by spectroscopy; our SBJ assembly possesses an increase temperature farther from the anode as gauged from emission spectroscopy. The trihydrogen cation (H3+) is the most abundant molecule in the universe; H3+ was detected at high percentage levels with the mass spectrometer in our experiment. Visually, the anode bears a striking resemblance to the sun, and visible layers of charge separation (Figure 9). These observations lend both quantitative and qualitative indications that the electric sun hypothesis warrants further critical study and evaluation." ... just didn't impress you one little bit. Well this is only the first of three phases of research known as SAFIRE so maybe the team can gain your approval in the future ? Am I being too optimistic here ? or have you already made your mind up ? ;)

How about giving your critique of this ferd ? It's on the Electric Sun driven and affected by charge ...

The Cause of the Solar Cycle PDF
Miles Mathis said:
I will pause to confirm that my theory of charge influence is completely physical, and has nothing to do with paranormal or mystical causes. In fact, it is much more mechanical than what normally passes for physics these days. It is known that celestial bodies have prominent E/M fields, and the charge field simply underlies and causes these E/M fields, just as it does at the quantum level and in Maxwell's equations. What the mainstream doesn't understand is that the local magnetism of Jupiter, say, doesn't have to travel from there to the Sun in order to cause the Solar magnetic responses and cycles. So what we are seeing isn't strictly a magnetic transference through space. What we are seeing is a charge transference through space which then causes a magnetic reaction on the Sun. What is traveling between the bodies is real photons with real field densities and real spins. These photons can then cause various E/M effects once they hit large bodies that are composed of ions or ion fields.

But back to the problem at hand. That passing mention of Jupiter finally jogged something in my head, and it was so simple it made me laugh. What is the orbital period of Jupiter? 11.862 years. Ho-ho!

So why isn't the Solar cycle exactly 11.862 years? Because Jupiter isn't the only cause. To calculate the cycle in any given year, we have to track all four of the Jovians (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune). Basically, when the charge fields of Jupiter and Saturn are in line, we get a maximum (of some kind). When Jupiter and Saturn are at 90 degrees, we should get a minimum. The full maximum would be when all four Jovians are in line with the Sun.

Do we have any other evidence for this? We do. The great conjunctions of Jupiter and Saturn take place every 18-20 years. If we return to the NASA paper, we find

This process, from migratory start to finish at the equator [of the Sun] takes 19 years on average, but is seen to vary from 16 to about 21 years.

We have a match: an average of 19 years in both places.

I have to imagine someone has seen these number matches and proposed an influence from Jupiter and Saturn. But they probably got bogged down in the field mechanics pretty quickly and couldn't make it work. They therefore gave up or tried more esoteric solutions. But if you have my unified field equations, you find the calculations are all well-oiled from the beginning. We will find no sticky spots

Some background on the effects our variable electric star has on Earth ...

Solar Flares, Weather Alert | S0 News January 3, 2015
 
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Last one for today, Haig.
Vermonter said:
One problem I have with the EC/U idea is that it has no predictive power. There is no model. I see a lot of "well it looks like X to me" and that seems to be taken as gospel.
Don't think you are really trying to see it !

Below is a collection of predictions based on Electric Universe principles, which have been confirmed by observations and data click HERE

<stuff not relevant to the ech snipped>
The top two links in that webpage are titled "Comets: Deep Impact ", and "Comets: Stardust". Both apparently directly relevant to the ech.

First, though, Vermonter explicitly tied "predictive power" to "model", and you (Haig) made a category error in conflating this with "predictions". Per electrical theorist David Talbott, there is no electric comet theory, no electric comet model; instead, there is only an electric comet hypothesis (ech).

To the so-called predictions, the ones directly relevant to the ech.

Reality Check has addressed all these, many times, in many threads; as far as I know no one has responded to his analyses. Certainly, neither you nor Sol88 has posted anything substantive to challenge his conclusions (e.g. that most are lies).

This post of mine, however, is not about the so-called predictions per se; rather it's about how one can - objectively, and in an independently verifiable manner - derive them from first ech principles.

With the exception of the first one ("Missing water Thornhill: An abundance of water on or below the surface of the nucleus (the underlying assumption of the "dirty snowball" hypothesis) is unlikely.") - which is easily derivable from the ech assumption that comets are homogeneous rock (perhaps covered with dust) - I cannot see how to derive the stated predictions from
* comets are homogeneous rock (perhaps covered with dust) AND
* there is an electric field centered approximately on the Sun

Perhaps you, Haig, can?

Here are just a couple to get you started (obviously, I'd be delighted if you could provide a detailed, objective, derivation for any of the others):

thunderdolts said:
Advance flash
Thornhill: Electrical interactions with Deep Impact may be slight, but they should be measurable if NASA will look for them. They would likely be similar to those of Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 prior to striking Jupiter's atmosphere: The most obvious would be a flash (lightning-like discharge) shortly before impact.

[...]


Comets: Stardust

Subsurface composition
Thornhill: Comets are the result of electrical discharge machining of planetary bodies that occurs in the catastrophic evolution of planetary orbits. It is far too simplistic to assume that the planets were formed along with the Sun and remained in their present orbits ever since.
 
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