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Oystein / Jay Howard debate on Harrit/Jones Paper - The Peanut Gallery

First is I believe Oystein made the first mistake EDX will show an oxygen peak but will not differentiate between oxygen and an oxide well. The EDX work by Harrit appears to be very sloppy work the particles in question should have been separated out and scanned separately.

Second given the manufacturing process of paint there should be a small very small amount of Fe in ordinary red paint from the process of manufacturing, or even from contamination of the paint by Fe particles in the paint during the drying process any particle of Fe in the paint would likely Oxidize from Fe,
To FeO- Fe3O4, and could be mistaken for elemental Iron. It would not be surprizing at all to find some in
Ordinary paint and given also the process of grinding or ball milling any particale of iron would be Micro sperical.
So the presense of Fe particles is again a strawman arguement, it would have to be shown they were of sugnificant quanity to mass to indicate a true thermitic construct, and not accidental trace contaminants!
The Harrit and Jones paper did not even attempt that merely stated they were present with no quanitative data to the exstent of mass of particles present before and after ignition of the chips in air.
Oystein I agree the data does not support the finding of Fe particles but given the sloppyness of the
Work Fe particles can not be exclusively ruled out, and even would be expected as naturally occurring trace contamination, a straw man issue to begin with.
 
it would have to be shown they were of sugnificant quanity to mass to indicate a true thermitic construct, and not accidental trace contaminants!

What would qualify as a significant quantity? How would you properly measure it?

Also, what would be the procedure for establishing - a. There was no (significant) elemental iron in the chips and b. There was significant elemental iron in the heated residue? And if it was established that there was no elemental iron to begin with and significant elemental iron after ignition would the only possible cause be a thermitic reaction?
 
What would qualify as a significant quantity? How would you properly measure it?

Also, what would be the procedure for establishing - a. There was no (significant) elemental iron in the chips and b. There was significant elemental iron in the heated residue? And if it was established that there was no elemental iron to begin with and significant elemental iron after ignition would the only possible cause be a thermitic reaction?

Energy released, versus material produced as measured in an argon atmosphere,
And by measuring the Al 203 to Fe ratio.
You can not establish there was no elemental Iron to begin with based on the paper, by Jones and Harrit.
Just as you can not establish that there is elemental Al, Oxides are hard to diffrenciate
In composites using EDX.

So no accurate claim can be made against Fe or for Al.
The work is sloppy science which could be accidental or deliberately so!
 
Georgio Jones and Harrit didn't even quantify the prior ignition mass of the chips,

If the chips are thermitic and ignited under argon gas there would be only a small unnoticeable amount of mass lost.

If the chips are organic and ignited in air and the mass loss is equal to the energy that would be expected from the conversion of the carbon based epoxy into carbon dioxide, then the chips are nothing more than paint burning in air.

I must point out that nano aluminum particles oxidizing in air from what I have read have a higher energy value than nano thermite per particle.

However a complete oxidation reaction would be unlikely.

What limits the temperature of the thermite reaction is the fact that energy has to liberate the oxygen from
The Fe 3O4-Fe 203.
Black sand thermite is one of the cheapest and most widely used thermitic compounds, Jones in fact
first proposed it, and sulfur to explain the flowing material from the towers via his early spectral EDX data,
When it was pointed out that the sulfur in a Thermate reaction would be lost as SO2 he dropped that claim.
Jones has shown a clear pattern of incompetent research, jumping to unfounded conclusions and obscure reference to fantasy to promote them.
This paper just looks like more of the same old tired song and dance routines we have all seen
Before.
 
What would qualify as a significant quantity? How would you properly measure it?

Also, what would be the procedure for establishing - a. There was no (significant) elemental iron in the chips and b. There was significant elemental iron in the heated residue? And if it was established that there was no elemental iron to begin with and significant elemental iron after ignition would the only possible cause be a thermitic reaction?

After the ignition they had iron oxide, they lied about having iron. But that is what they do. Old men who fool people with BS, 911 truth. Look at yourself, on the fence for 13 years due to what? You ignore the real plot, 1. take planes, 2. crash planes, and fall for BS - WTC 7 and thermite have nothing to do with 19 terrorists who murdered thousands on 911.
What the USA did after 911, does not change what 19 terrorists did 911.

Read the Jones/Harrit paper, it proves there is not enough evidence for thermite as the conclusion - any lay person can read and see it is not a valid conclusion.

In the paper they show energy from the chips, and not one matches thermite.

JonesHarritDelusion.jpg

In the paper they quibble, and wave the hands. Not sure how anyone can believe the thermite conclusion after this BS. To remain on the fence about thermite requires a great love of BS and an ability to ignore reality.

Then we get to the energy in thermite, the heat energy is pathetic compared to office contents.
JetFuelandWoodBeatThermite.jpg

Even plastic burning creates more heat than thermite. Paper beats thermite.
Why does the WTC need thermite to bring down the WTC when the heat energy released prior to the collapse was equal in heat to 2,700 tons of TNT.

The Jones paper proves if you wave your hands and lie about stuff, some people will believe and ignore the fact not one piece of steel showed damage from thermite, or explosives. The paper fails to make a valid point, except you can get BS published in a vanity journal if you pay.

13 years, and now Jones who has the story of the century, thermite used by MIB to destroy the WTC, and Jones is off doing over unity circuits, more BS, instead of saving the world. And Jones best work, trying to prove Christ walked in the new world, or horses in the new world.
Not that Jones religious work precludes solid work in science, but the thermite paper is not solid work, it does not prove thermite was used at the WTC.

Jones has moved on because he is a BS artist, and his fantasy was thermite was used, and he based this on sparks dropping from the WTC where there were massive fires and aircraft parts melting in fire, office fires.

Then Jones and Harrit never explain why no steel was found with thermite damage, and people like you remain on the fence; even you can't explain why there is no steel damage from thermite. Why has Jones dropped the biggest story since Watergate? Why can't anyone take this to a newspaper and get a Pulitzer for the biggest conspiracy since Watergate?

Because you can't find any evidence and this paper only proves they might have dust from the WTC and the dust burns with heat energy less than thermite and more than thermite, not the same. Why did the samples not match thermite? Why don't 911 truth followers question their "experts" who lie to them? Jones has a fantasy and he has left the BS of thermite behind to do other BS.
 
Then we get to the energy in thermite, the heat energy is pathetic compared to office contents.

I remember seeing an interview with Niels Harrit where he was asked to clarify how much energy this 'supposedly energetic' material released in comparison to burning, I think it was paper. Harrit said that '...time is a factor.' that is to say, the speed at which the energy is released is more important to considerations about how much damage it will do than the actual figure of how much energy will be released.

At the time I came up with an analogy that if someone were to tap you lightly on the head 2000 times a day for 30 years it wouldn't do you any harm but a single punch in the face would, even though it would surely have less energy than the 30 years worth of taps on the head added together. Is this line of reasoning valid?
 
If the heat energy of however many tons of thermite it would take to collapse the World Trade Center would have been released on 9/11, the blinding flash would have been visible from space. Thermite has always been a ridiculous theory.
 
Thermite has always been a ridiculous theory.

There are some ridiculous people who are still falling for things like fire fighters dipping their hands in pools of molten metal.

I personally can't take people like that seriously.
 
I remember seeing an interview with Niels Harrit where he was asked to clarify how much energy this 'supposedly energetic' material released in comparison to burning, I think it was paper. Harrit said that '...time is a factor.' that is to say, the speed at which the energy is released is more important to considerations about how much damage it will do than the actual figure of how much energy will be released.

At the time I came up with an analogy that if someone were to tap you lightly on the head 2000 times a day for 30 years it wouldn't do you any harm but a single punch in the face would, even though it would surely have less energy than the 30 years worth of taps on the head added together. Is this line of reasoning valid?

Only if the energy can damage.the steel,
High explosives verus gun powder, a fist will knock you down
A smaller bullet kills.
The energy has to be capible of performing the work.
 
I remember seeing an interview with Niels Harrit where he was asked to clarify how much energy this 'supposedly energetic' material released in comparison to burning, I think it was paper. Harrit said that '...time is a factor.' that is to say, the speed at which the energy is released is more important to considerations about how much damage it will do than the actual figure of how much energy will be released.

At the time I came up with an analogy that if someone were to tap you lightly on the head 2000 times a day for 30 years it wouldn't do you any harm but a single punch in the face would, even though it would surely have less energy than the 30 years worth of taps on the head added together. Is this line of reasoning valid?

According to Harrit and Jones, thermite is the slowest burning explosive. It took over 90 days to burn it all.
 
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According to Harrit and Jones, thermite is the slowest burning explosive. It took over 90 days to burn it all.
Not true, they claim years later they still found un-burned "therm?te". ;)

I wonder if this would be expected when hundreds of tons are used? :rolleyes:
 
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At the time I came up with an analogy that if someone were to tap you lightly on the head 2000 times a day for 30 years it wouldn't do you any harm but a single punch in the face would, even though it would surely have less energy than the 30 years worth of taps on the head added together. Is this line of reasoning valid?

Only if the punch in the face is powerful enough to actually do any damage. If all the steel in the WTC were covered by a layer of thermite the thickness of the chips Harrit et al are analysing, it would be more of a comparison between being gently stroked with a feather 2000 times a day for 30 years and being hit on the head by Michael Palin with a rubber chicken.

Dave
 
Only if the punch in the face is powerful enough to actually do any damage. If all the steel in the WTC were covered by a layer of thermite the thickness of the chips Harrit et al are analysing, it would be more of a comparison between being gently stroked with a feather 2000 times a day for 30 years and being hit on the head by Michael Palin with a rubber chicken.

Dave

You're off by orders of magnitude. I once estimated it would take over a thousand flaming coats of the hair thickness paint to melt the steel, assuming 100% efficiency. Or one feather stroke every 2000 years, or being hit on the head by John Cleese with a vintage anime cell painted image of a hummingbird.
In slow motion.
 
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I remember seeing an interview with Niels Harrit where he was asked to clarify how much energy this 'supposedly energetic' material released in comparison to burning, I think it was paper. Harrit said that '...time is a factor.' that is to say, the speed at which the energy is released is more important to considerations about how much damage it will do than the actual figure of how much energy will be released.

At the time I came up with an analogy that if someone were to tap you lightly on the head 2000 times a day for 30 years it wouldn't do you any harm but a single punch in the face would, even though it would surely have less energy than the 30 years worth of taps on the head added together. Is this line of reasoning valid?
No, it is BS from Harrit.
Your analogy is BS for WTC fires, as you can see people jumped instead of letting their skin burn from across the room; have you been in fire, my fellow air force crew-members have, and they said their skin started to burn from a distance, and they were not in the fire; it was a jet fuel fire. There is no TAP lightly with out of control office fires, it is the full blown "Punch In The Face", and office fire is not a tap, it is the real Punch. Harrit lies about thermite, he has no evidence and his paper proves it.

How did the people Harrit can't name plant the thermite? Go ahead explain the on the fence BS theory on how the thermite was planted in the exactly place where the aircraft hit. Where is the line of reasoning for planting the thermite? How did you get your thermite next to the steel?

WTC had the heat enegy of 8,000,000,000,000 joules in WTC 1, and this is why the WTC collapsed. You can fall for Harrit's BS, but it will not make the fantasy of thermite true. Thermite is one of the top stupid claims by the nuts in 911 truth.


BS, the speed of release means the WTC should have fallen instantly, yet it took the same time it would take office fires to cause the failure. OOPS, I told you Harrit was not very good at this. Why did it take so long for the thermite to make the WTC fall? Why does the time to collapse match the time it take office fire to come up with the required heat?

WTC fires were equal in heat to 2,700 Tons of thermite, not pound, tons.
8,000,000,000,000 joules of heat in WTC 1, and 3,000,000,000,000 joules in WTC 2.

Please explain to me why the thermite took so long to work, and why would there be thermite in the dust? Do you realize thermite burns quickly?

If they, the fantasy evil guys Jones and Harrit can't name, waited as long as it took the office fires to start the collapse, then the fuse for the thermite would be burned up, and the thermite would never be set off, ;;; OH< that is why the thermite is in the dust, it never went off. Darn...

You have fallen for the dumbed down lie of thermite, and don't understand there was no thermite used on 911. There was no way to get the thermite next to the steel on 911, or before 911. Thus, the office fires are much for effective at heating the WTC steel than thermite; you see, there were fires, the biggest fires in history, the first time fires were not fought, and water system was broke by the impacts. Ignore reality and believe the liars.

Does thermite cause the shell of the WTC to bow in? Does this magic Harrit thermite suck in the walls? Explain why zero evidence of thermite damage was found. Please show me where Jones an Harrit explain why no steel has damage from thermite? You can't.

Where did the evil doers Jones and Harrit can't name get the suck in the shell thermite?

How does thermite suck in the WTC walls? Please explain what your experts say.

Your analogy sucks, if someone taps someone 2000 times a day, the person tapping will be beat to pulp, at tap 2. But go ahead tap someone 2,000 times a day. But the analogy sucks for a fire, unless you are saying the fire as one small match at a time. Very bad analogy, you don't understand fire, and how crazy Harrit is.

Unless your on the fence thermite is right on the steel, it will fizzle out in seconds.

BTW, where is the thermite PRODUCTS? Thermite leaves iron behind, not iron spheres, but piles of iron, it is used to weld steel rails together, it leaves iron. Where is the iron?

How many tons of thermite does Harrit use in his fantasy thermite theory? Did Harrit and Jones do any math?

If you are on the fence for thermite, you may as well go for Moon landing hoax, Bigfoot and more. Read the paper, and explain to me how thermite they found can have less energy than thermite.
Why does the DSC not match? Why does Harrit lie and claim they have iron after the reaction and they show a spectrum for iron oxide?

911 truth has no valid claims. The fence is getting too tall to be on. 13 years of no evidence, has been my typing practice for years. And you better be watching basketball as you post, or something; there is much to much to do to waste time posting about lies from 911, unless you are doing something else the same time. ESPN replay is my posting buddy - Maryland won over Michigan.


Your analogy is better for a 180 mph aircraft impact on the WTC, which would have the plane, most the plane falling to the ground; the WTC steel shell was strong, as it held 50 percent of the WTC load, and was responsible for the lateral support of the WTC. The only reason the WTC collapsed was due to high speed impacts. If they had been doing the speed limit of 250 knots below 10,000 feet, the WTC would have stopped the attack at the shell, and we would see all those things the follower of 911 truth wanted; aircraft parts which look like aircraft parts, a big tail section sitting on the NYC road next to the WTC... etc
 
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Hey Georgio, any chance you could contact Jay Howard and let him know the debate you asked for is set up.
 
... The EDX work by Harrit appears to be very sloppy work the particles in question should have been separated out and scanned separately.

Circumstantial ad hominem. Creating doubt. Attempting to frame the conversation before it's begun. The fact is the science on the red-gray chips is sound, cross-corroborated with multiple scanning techniques and spetroscopy and whose results dovetail with a high-tech thermal bridge material.

It appears to have been designed to ignite with a bic lighter and achieve temps up to somewhere around 4000F. There's enough literature in the public domain that there isn't much doubt about what this material is.

What's so compelling about the results of the Jones, Harrit, Farrer paper are the iron microspheres that resulted from the ignition of the chips. Jones found the iron microspheres to be suspicious, originally. Then, this manufactured material found in the dust with the microspheres is burned and produces microspheres!!

It's not paint. Dried paint doesn't ignite at 430C and produce iron microspheres as a by product.


Crazy Chainsaw said:
Second given the manufacturing process of paint there should be a small very small amount of Fe in ordinary red paint from the process of manufacturing,... and could be mistaken for elemental Iron.

Oh, how convenient that when it becomes inevitable that the evidence of iron microspheres can no longer be denied, that lo and behold, iron microspheres were ALWAYS there to begin with, see? Nothing unusual here.

Except there is. The iron microspheres in question were the result of a high-temperature reaction, not a mechanical, grinding process. Hence the spheroid shapes and the visible crystalline alignment on the surface of the spheres. Undeniable by-products of a high-temp reaction.

All the bet-hedging in the world will not change that fact.

Crazy Chainsaw said:
It would not be surprizing at all to find some in Ordinary paint and given also the process of grinding or ball milling any particale of iron would be Micro sperical.

Right.

Baseless. Unscientific. Drivel.
 
Hmm, Jay Howard's first post in the dedicated debate thread doesn't fill me with optimism. I've reported it, as it doesn't address Oystein's post, but one of Crazy Chainsaw's from a different thread.



ETA (for clarity) - Jay Howard's post has since been moved, and is now post #18 in this thread.
 
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Circumstantial ad hominem. Creating doubt. Attempting to frame the conversation before it's begun. The fact is the science on the red-gray chips is sound, cross-corroborated with multiple scanning techniques and spetroscopy and whose results dovetail with a high-tech thermal bridge material.

It appears to have been designed to ignite with a bic lighter and achieve temps up to somewhere around 4000F. There's enough literature in the public domain that there isn't much doubt about what this material is.

What's so compelling about the results of the Jones, Harrit, Farrer paper are the iron microspheres that resulted from the ignition of the chips. Jones found the iron microspheres to be suspicious, originally. Then, this manufactured material found in the dust with the microspheres is burned and produces microspheres!!

It's not paint. Dried paint doesn't ignite at 430C and produce iron microspheres as a by product.




Oh, how convenient that when it becomes inevitable that the evidence of iron microspheres can no longer be denied, that lo and behold, iron microspheres were ALWAYS there to begin with, see? Nothing unusual here.

Except there is. The iron microspheres in question were the result of a high-temperature reaction, not a mechanical, grinding process. Hence the spheroid shapes and the visible crystalline alignment on the surface of the spheres. Undeniable by-products of a high-temp reaction.

All the bet-hedging in the world will not change that fact.



Right.

Baseless. Unscientific. Drivel.
Yes, the Jones/Harrit paper is unscientific drivel, based on fantasy. Jones made up the thermite BS four years after 911, and the paper is another attempt to back in BS for something 19 murderers did. Do you ignore the 19 terrorists; how do 19 nuts for UBL fit in your fantasy CD world based on zero evidence?

Iron spheres occur in fire, a fact. You have been fooled by old men who have moved on to over unity circuits, another BS based fantasy. Why are 911 truth followers so darn gullible?

It is ironic, the other 911 truth BS artists claim the thermite could not burn off due to the fires in the WTC, but you insist the thermite did burn off at 430C in office fires. You have 911 truth experts saying the thermite can't burn off because it has to reach 900 C, yet you say it did burn off in office fires. Why is 911 truth so fake?

What does your fantasy do with the 19 terrorists?
How did the 19 terrorists plant the thermite in your fantasy?

13 years of silly fantasy, mocking the murder of thousand, you and 911 truth. Where is your evidence, the DSC proves it was not thermite, and not one of the samples matched thermite in heat; how do you get less energy out of thermite? How does that work?
Where is Jones? Working on the next hoax.

How many paint samples did you test? if you insist on Jones fantasy version of thermite, which auto ignites at 430 C, it all burned off in the office fires. How do you explain that BS? Wait, you will not address questions, you will only ask questions.

You are in the wrong thread, which is indicative of 911 truth attention to detail...

If you could be skeptical of 911 truth claims, you might find auto-ignition of some coatings is 430 C, but you don't research, you repeat lies from 911 truth failed lies. Bet you can't find some. Don't look at epoxy... mixed with ??? don't worry, you can't refute 19 terrorists did 911 as you Gish Gallop on thermite and other delusional claims from Jones and others.
 
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Hello jay - this is just a quick note to make sure you know where the dedicated thread for you and Oystein to debate the Harrit paper is located. It's here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289588

Also, I'm sure I speak for everyone in saying that there should be no time limit to responses from either side. Take your time.

If you could however confirm in a reply to this message that you know the debate has been set up and that you know where to post, that would be helpful.

I'll PM you this message too, just to be sure. Good luck to the debaters!
 
Circumstantial ad hominem. Creating doubt. Attempting to frame the conversation before it's begun. The fact is the science on the red-gray chips is sound, cross-corroborated with multiple scanning techniques and spetroscopy and whose results dovetail with a high-tech thermal bridge material.

It appears to have been designed to ignite with a bic lighter and achieve temps up to somewhere around 4000F. There's enough literature in the public domain that there isn't much doubt about what this material is.

( 2200C That is lower on several orders of magnitude than thermite nano thermite, at 2500C,
Similar to finely decided charcoal dust in air, that implies organic combustion.)

What's so compelling about the results of the Jones, Harrit, Farrer paper are the iron microspheres that resulted from the ignition of the chips. Jones found the iron microspheres to be suspicious, originally. Then, this manufactured material found in the dust with the microspheres is burned and produces microspheres!!
(Did it burn and produce or burn and release microspheres of decarbonized steel from welding fume and grinding debris? After the organic matrix holding them was consumed?)

It's not paint. Dried paint doesn't ignite at 430C and produce iron microspheres as a by product.
(Wet paint can capture construction dust including Iron microspheres and release it when ignited at 430C when the organic carbon matrix is consumed.)



Oh, how convenient that when it becomes inevitable that the evidence of iron microspheres can no longer be denied, that lo and behold, iron microspheres were ALWAYS there to begin with, see? Nothing unusual here.

( That was apparent in the first microspheres debate years ago that Iron microspheres were a modern form of dust pollution, found anywhere man has been on planet earth, last time I checked the twin towers collapsed on planet Earth.)

Except there is. The iron microspheres in question were the result of a high-temperature reaction, not a mechanical, grinding process. Hence the spheroid shapes and the visible crystalline alignment on the surface of the spheres. Undeniable by-products of a high-temp reaction.
(The microspheres from grinding show the same effects do to friction heating if you want to offer straw man arguments at least try to make them convincing,)

All the bet-hedging in the world will not change that fact.
( No bet hedging here just stating fact, were you not supposed to make an appearance on the other thread, with Oystein where you can show all the science that is in that sloppy unscientific piece of crap paper?)




Right.

Baseless. Unscientific. Drivel.

Facts are facts in the non truther universe, do not know what fantasy your living in.
 
Hello jay - this is just a quick note to make sure you know where the dedicated thread for you and Oystein to debate the Harrit paper is located. It's here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289588

Also, I'm sure I speak for everyone in saying that there should be no time limit to responses from either side. Take your time.

If you could however confirm in a reply to this message that you know the debate has been set up and that you know where to post, that would be helpful.

I'll PM you this message too, just to be sure. Good luck to the debaters!

I agree he needs more time to read the paper and research the issues, if he would prefer to
Debate me on how the the chips could have been formed naturally I have no problems with that.

That is why The quantitative assessment would have to be shown by those saying the Harrit- Jones paper has any significantly other than emergency use in a portapoty on a construction site by a qualified engineer.:D
Remember also I am giving Jones and Harrit the benefit of devout, that they found a thermitic chip, or a chip with included Micro spheres, Jay Howard seem to forget that
The paper does not even show that, conclusively!
 
What would qualify as a significant quantity? How would you properly measure it?

Also, what would be the procedure for establishing - a. There was no (significant) elemental iron in the chips and b. There was significant elemental iron in the heated residue? And if it was established that there was no elemental iron to begin with and significant elemental iron after ignition would the only possible cause be a thermitic reaction?

It no longer matters Just watch the video Oystein posted on the ignition of the chip,
That is the ignition of carbon monoxide from a smoldering reaction in a paint chip that
Explains the temperature and energy perfectly.
Thermite can not and will not react in that way not as a surface gas reaction,
The electro chemical attraction of Al to Oxygen will cause a spherical shape to form, if small amounts are ignited.
If a thermitic ignition occurred the chip would have been blown apart from the inside out with significant more force a sparkle like effect with no CO1 would have been produced and energy released would have been triple that.
 
Hello jay - this is just a quick note to make sure you know where the dedicated thread for you and Oystein to debate the Harrit paper is located. It's here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289588

Also, I'm sure I speak for everyone in saying that there should be no time limit to responses from either side. Take your time.

If you could however confirm in a reply to this message that you know the debate has been set up and that you know where to post, that would be helpful.

I'll PM you this message too, just to be sure. Good luck to the debaters!

There is no debate, 911 truth is based on lies, and have no valid claims. It is not a debate, more of a study on gullibility, with the hope some new BS will rise up to explain why 911 truth celebrates ignorance; and expose why 911 truth lies about the murder of thousands.

Good luck, maybe there will be a new super stundie, or some illogical claim which will add humor to the great disrespect of 911 truth claims bring upon 911.

If you want to call it a debate, fine, but it is the same as debating Bigfoot, the tooth fairy, Santa, and other fantasies.

Like Bigfoot, 911 truth followers have an illusion 911 truth has evidence and valid claims; 13 years of failure will not stop the faith based followers from repeating lies and BS.
 
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Oystein thanks for the link to the video on Mark Basile's video, that's not thermite or nano thermite no way completely different not sparkling enough appears to be smoldering carbons giving off CO 1 then the CO 1 ignites in air. Looks nothing like the little sparkles of nano thermite or thermite, totally wrong.
 
Oystein thanks for the link to the video on Mark Basile's video, that's not thermite or nano thermite no way completely different not sparkling enough appears to be smoldering carbons giving off CO 1 then the CO 1 ignites in air. Looks nothing like the little sparkles of nano thermite or thermite, totally wrong.

CO and/or whatever.

Paint binders are organic polymers - acrylic, epoxy, dried oils... When you heat them, they decompose to short organic molecules plus CO and perhaps even some H2, and those will ignite and burn secondarily. I believe, for example, that epoxy will be reduced to, among other things, benzene, which burns nicely. Decomposition temperature and ignition point of epoxy are the same: both 425 °C +/-
 
CO and/or whatever.

Paint binders are organic polymers - acrylic, epoxy, dried oils... When you heat them, they decompose to short organic molecules plus CO and perhaps even some H2, and those will ignite and burn secondarily. I believe, for example, that epoxy will be reduced to, among other things, benzene, which burns nicely. Decomposition temperature and ignition point of epoxy are the same: both 425 °C +/-

Yes it does appear to be carbon based flame nothing like the star like sparkles of nano thermite, or thermite and no ejection of Al2O3.

The paint chips I made with cutting dust blew apart and would have left a small dimple on the material that chip is setting on.
 
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Great to see Jay enter the debate in the dedicated thread :)

It's kinda longish, and it's 2:30 in the night here in central Europe, me kinda tired, so I'll attend it ... later. Monday sometime.

G'night
 
This material appears to be a high-tech explosive, made from a "bottom-up" approach in a lab capable of such manufacturing.
Yes, companies who make coatings use labs to create their products, and there was no thermite found in the dust. BTW, thermite is no an explosive... someone needs to help jay

How do dust samples with less energy than the High-Tech Explosives fantasy fit this BS.

What a load of BS, except for the "appears", which makes the claim a failed opinion. The spheres of iron, iron oxide, found from the WTC are due to fires. There was no steel damaged by thermite, or explosives on 911.

Jay spews fantasy in his first post, making a statement based on the fake paper from Jones and Harrit.
 
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Jay Howard have you read this paper?
inspirehep.net/record/759512?ln=en
 
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Jay Howard have you read this paper?
inspirehep.net/record/759512?ln=en

http://inspirehep.net/record/759512?ln=en

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0708/0708.4276.pdf



That is not part of his fantasy thermite, which leaves no products, and leaves no signs on the steel it touches.

Why do iron spheres come out of diesel engines. Are engines using thermite? Why don't we use thermite to run our cars and jets? Right, gas and jet fuel have 10 times the energy of thermite.
 
http://inspirehep.net/record/759512?ln=en

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0708/0708.4276.pdf



That is not part of his fantasy thermite, which leaves no products, and leaves no signs on the steel it touches.

Why do iron spheres come out of diesel engines. Are engines using thermite? Why don't we use thermite to run our cars and jets? Right, gas and jet fuel have 10 times the energy of thermite.

Thank you for repairing the links, there should have been millions of microspheres available to contamination of the paint in the world trade center from welding and touch up of welds at
The point where the electrodes were changed out, with a grinder.
Also metal cutting and other work in the buildings.
It is important to realize the most likely points for paint chips to have been ejected at high velocity is the weld breaks that means any Chip with Fe microspheres has to be suspect from the start.
Welds only break under ex stream loading and eject little pieces of metal and paint,
At high speed.
The chips may not even be from the towers, they may be just a random assortment of a common primer.
 
Hello jay - this is just a quick note to make sure you know where the dedicated thread for you and Oystein to debate the Harrit paper is located. It's here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289588

Also, I'm sure I speak for everyone in saying that there should be no time limit to responses from either side. Take your time.

If you could however confirm in a reply to this message that you know the debate has been set up and that you know where to post, that would be helpful.

I'll PM you this message too, just to be sure. Good luck to the debaters!

Georgio, thanks for pointing out to Jay Howard where the thread is. I know some people find it hard to understand what's going on.

Anyway he has made his first post now, how do you think he is getting on in discussing the bentham paper ?
 
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Thank you for repairing the links, there should have been millions of microspheres available to contamination of the paint in the world trade center from welding and touch up of welds at
The point where the electrodes were changed out, with a grinder.
Also metal cutting and other work in the buildings.
It is important to realize the most likely points for paint chips to have been ejected at high velocity is the weld breaks that means any Chip with Fe microspheres has to be suspect from the start.
Welds only break under ex stream loading and eject little pieces of metal and paint,
At high speed.
The chips may not even be from the towers, they may be just a random assortment of a common primer.



This is the point at which you would make reference to the spectroscopy of welding spheres vs. the iron-based spheres found in the dust--and show them to be at least qualitatively similar. These kinds of broad-stroke generalizations are attempts to smooth-over the expectations of those who don't understand the finer points molecular species identification with XEDS or other spetroscopic techniques.

You're not going to present any spectroscopic data comparing them. I know this because the data do not support your ad hoc hypothesis. But please, prove me wrong. You made a positive claim that the iron microspheres found by Jones and RJ Lee and the USGS are perfectly normal welding debris. Please, attempt to back that up with some data.

It's not ok to make bare assertions about things which the available evidence DOES NOT SUPPORT. If you make a claim against the evidence, (and color me shocked that no one has mentioned this), you must provide some compelling reasons supporting that claim.
 
Actually, this is where proponents of thermite should show where the writers of the Bentham paper eliminated welding as a possible source of iron microspheres.

Surely such serious researchers would have done so to uphold their end of the due diligence requirement.
 
This is the point at which you would make reference to the spectroscopy of welding spheres vs. the iron-based spheres found in the dust--and show them to be at least qualitatively similar. These kinds of broad-stroke generalizations are attempts to smooth-over the expectations of those who don't understand the finer points molecular species identification with XEDS or other spetroscopic techniques.

You're not going to present any spectroscopic data comparing them. I know this because the data do not support your ad hoc hypothesis. But please, prove me wrong. You made a positive claim that the iron microspheres found by Jones and RJ Lee and the USGS are perfectly normal welding debris. Please, attempt to back that up with some data.

It's not ok to make bare assertions about things which the available evidence DOES NOT SUPPORT. If you make a claim against the evidence, (and color me shocked that no one has mentioned this), you must provide some compelling reasons supporting that claim.

You seem like a bright spark, see if you can make your own iron-microspheres without and special thermite.

http://www.northwestjournal.ca/IX3945.htm
 
This is the point at which you would make reference to the spectroscopy of welding spheres vs. the iron-based spheres found in the dust--and show them to be at least qualitatively similar. These kinds of broad-stroke generalizations are attempts to smooth-over the expectations of those who don't understand the finer points molecular species identification with XEDS or other spetroscopic techniques.

You're not going to present any spectroscopic data comparing them. I know this because the data do not support your ad hoc hypothesis. But please, prove me wrong. You made a positive claim that the iron microspheres found by Jones and RJ Lee and the USGS are perfectly normal welding debris. Please, attempt to back that up with some data.

It's not ok to make bare assertions about things which the available evidence DOES NOT SUPPORT. If you make a claim against the evidence, (and color me shocked that no one has mentioned this), you must provide some compelling reasons supporting that claim.
Ironically on 911 there was zero thermite used, and thus the iron spheres found are due to the WTC event, not your fantasy thermite from Jones fantasy mind.
You need to prove iron spheres can't form in other ways, and you can't because all you have nonsense. Your failed experts claimed iron sphere only come from thermite, yet they exist all over the place without thermite; you never checked, you never opened a book you spread BS from 911 truth without explain your theory.
You fail to explain your claims, or support the claims you can't explain. You think loud sounds support your fantasy, but never explain why no steel had no damage from explosives, or the delusional thermite Jones made up. Where is Jones now? What crazy claims is he off on now? Over unity circuits; Jones had (if true) the biggest story in history, planted thermite destroyed the WTC, Jones claims, yet he left you will the BS and you have no clue what to do; after 13 years.

Thermite is not an explosive, so your loud sounds are proof of no thermite?

What is your claim? You can't say because it goes against your propaganda effort to fool people. You manifesto to BS your way to back in CD by not explaining your CD fantasy.

You can't keep using your "New Approach" propagada model, it is not science, and you can't refute iron spheres form in fires, from iron bearing items. Darn, you lost the thermite argument over 13 years ago, and you don't know it.
jay howard said:
To clarify, when I approach a would be debunker and steer clear of claims like "inside job", "US govt complicity", and even "freefall acceleration and thermitic material", but just stick to "they got the report wrong, missed out elements and made errors and should redo their analysis" - there is no defense. The issue is there in black and white and is undeniable. The only response that opposers can resort to is to try and move onto the aforementioned points that I have chosen for now, to steer clear of, and that fact alone indicates where the WTC7 report weak point really is.
But you have no engineering chomps to explain why NIST is wrong, you don't understand models, so your talk is BS, and you failed to prove your lie. You can't prove what NIST got wrong, so you are you spreading a lie, or your opinion based on nothing.

Does this method fool your buddies into believing the delusional fantasy of CD?
http://911blogger.com/news/2014-03-07/being-smeared-911-truther-msm#comment-260973
"A New Approach", since you can't explain your CD fantasy. You can't find any steel damaged by explosives or thermite. Leave you will the old fashion BS propaganda technique of spreading BS, and avoid explaining you have nothing to offer.

So far you "black and white" undeniable BS has failed. When people find out your silly game, do they get upset? Do they get upset when they find out CD is a BS option made up by BS artists and nuts like Jones?

Too bad your iron rich spheres are iron oxide. now what
Why do your dust samples not match thermite - please explain in detail.
Why is the DSC not matching thermite - again, explain in detail.
 

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