Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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I've never been shot by a rifle from 300 feet behind me, so it's hard to say why I would have heard, except me yelling or screaming (hopefully, otherwise it's a bad day).

Fortunately, that is not true. The HSCA conducted extensive tests on the same model rifle that Oswald allegedly used and the same ammunition.

They discovered that you would have been exposed to a shock wave which generated a 130+ decibel sound level, followed by a muzzle blast that was almost as loud.

There is no sound evidence, and you can't tell what people heard or didn't hear based off their reactions or supposed non-reactions on a grainy silent film.

That is also untrue. Thanks to people like Hunt and Landis, we know exactly how people will react when startled by extremely loud sounds. Roy Kellerman is a classic example.

http://jfkhistory.com/kellerman2.gif

I was into this stuff for a long time, and I've seen some pretty plausible CTs come and go (mostly go). This isn't one of them.

What do you think is the most plausible explanation for why 5 people reacted as they did, in the same 1/6th of a second of one another and Abraham Zapruder?

And what is your explanation for why most witnesses only heard one of the supposedly 130 decibel, high powered, early shots?

Answer those questions and then you will have the right to demean my analysis.
 
Bump for Robert:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10755026#post10755026

Still waiting for your reasons for believing Ellsworth's decades-later recollection.

Hank

I've already responded to your hotkeyed "cant trust the witnesses" pitch.

This was a law enforcement professional who was involved in the most important case of his life. If you think he suffered some kind of delusion, then that's your prerogative. It's strange though, that you never come to this conclusion about any of the cops who don't make inconvenient statements:)

What I found interesting is that Ellsworth's story is a perfect match for the oft repeated claim that the police actually found a Mauser a the 6th floor.

Let's suppose, hypothetically, that they found a Mauser on the 6th floor and Oswald's rifle on the 5th. What would have happened over the weekend, if they were confronted by FBI people, enforcing the federal dictate that,

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."


Are you beginning to understand why I have suggested that the most likely location for the other high powered rifle sniper, is the same floor that Oswald was on?
 
I've already responded to your hotkeyed "cant trust the witnesses" pitch.

This was a law enforcement professional who was involved in the most important case of his life. If you think he suffered some kind of delusion, then that's your prerogative. It's strange though, that you never come to this conclusion about any of the cops who don't make inconvenient statements:)

What I found interesting is that Ellsworth's story is a perfect match for the oft repeated claim that the police actually found a Mauser a the 6th floor.

Let's suppose, hypothetically, that they found a Mauser on the 6th floor and Oswald's rifle on the 5th. What would have happened over the weekend, if they were confronted by FBI people, enforcing the federal dictate that,

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."


Are you beginning to understand why I have suggested that the most likely location for the other high powered rifle sniper, is the same floor that Oswald was on?

Giving full credence to an outlier witness statement only given decades after the fact and which is contradicted by all the other evidence, including film, as well as all contemporary witness statements. Implying a cover-up from the level of the Dallas Police Department on up.

Misrepresentation of the memo, which actually stressed that the public must be given "all the facts."

Duly noted.

And what "other high powered rifle sniper"? This is but a figment of your imagination, as has been shown here.


Bob, you believe the Warren Commission was a cover-up; do you, therefore, believe the government was not interested in knowing whether a possibly international conspiracy was behind the killing of the president? If that seems to you, as it does to me, a proposition that truly beggars belief, then what agency carried out the real, in-earnest investigation?
 
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They discovered that you would have been exposed to a shock wave which generated a 130+ decibel sound level, followed by a muzzle blast that was almost as loud.
Why do you keep spouting this crap? There is no way a Carcano using standard ammo is so "quiet". It would actually be much louder. I wish I could get a rifle like that as quiet with a good quality silencer attached.

Ranb
 
I am declaring the "null hypothesis" to be that Oswald had accomplices.

Nope, the null hypothesis can't be simply "something else happened". If you have an alternate null hypothesis, please state it in its entirety here. Otherwise, the null hypothesis is your "lone nut" theory.

We'll handle it from there.
 
So many CT advocates think that being on a case of exceptional importance means recall and memory is inherently trustworthy, because an expert will always remember something so important.

This is untrue. Consider Charles Swanson, the officer in charge of the Jack The Ripper investigation. In his personal notes, scribbled I the margin of memoirs by another lead officer I the case, Swanson described how he identified the Ripper in an asylum, had him transferred to the Seaside Home (for convelescent officers) to be identified, before returning him to the asylum where he died shortly after. All exciting stuff, honestly remembered. But the seaside home had not opened in 1888, the witness named was not a violent maniac, and still had fifteen years to live.

Obviously, over the decades, the names and details of Polish Jewish suspects got confused and the name muddled. Or he managed to forget the most dangerous killer of his time could be released as a harmless schizophrenic at any moment.


Memory and testemony is failiable, and more so over time.
 
Robert ignores the data posts and goes straight for a post that was an summary aside to another poster. Robert claims he wants to talk about the assassination, but curiously, skips over any posts of mine that discuss the witnesses recollections in detail.


What is "unfortunate" is that so many people are impervious to the evidence which proves them wrong.

Absolutely. Is that why you're not even trying to rebut the points I made concerning Connally, nor defend your straw man arguments about what I said?


Well of course! Never mind that every attempt you have made to push this nonsense has been thoroughly refuted and every one of "your" witnesses has flatly contradicted you:-)

You ultimately agreed with my claims about John Connally. You never disputed my claims about Clint Hill, all you said was there was no else who said that. You've since admitted that was wrong, as you ultimately conceded Connally's recollection agreed with Clint Hill's -- both heard only two shots and one impact on the head.


Both Clint Hill and John Connally were crystal clear that the last shot they heard, was exactly that. Neither of them even hinted that they thought they heard two shots from one.

It's still a straw argument every time you talk about Hill or Connally talking about two shots at the very end. That's not what they said; and that's not what I said they they said. It's not even what you said.

Both said they heard a shot and an impact of the shot at the end of the shooting. I said that, you agreed to it. Realizing the problems with your admissions, and how it impeaches your conclusions, you're trying to back track now and muddy the waters by bring in straw man arguments.

Prolong the conversation rather than reach a conclusion.


This has to be one of the most idiotic arguments I have heard from you guys all day:-) You think that because no evidence was found in an unsearched building, that this is some kind of proof that no assassins were there.

You think that because no evidence was found in an unsearched building, that this is some kind of proof that no pink unicorns were there.

No one found evidence of pink unicorns in that unsearched building, nor did any witnesses outside in Dealey Plaza see any pink unicorns in the building nor did anyone see pink unicorns enter the building, nor did anyone see any pink unicorns leave the building.

Exactly what evidence we have of assassins, we have for pink unicorns as well.

By your "logic", this is some kind of proof pink unicorns accompanied the snipers into the building to act as spotters. It works the exact same way.


And you deny the ridiculously obvious fact that a sniper would choose to remain unseen and not leave an evidence trail.

Further evidence that there were pink unicorns in the building! You deny the ridiculously obvious fact that pink unicorns also choose to remain unseen and not leave an evidence trail! Have you ever seen a pink unicorn? Did you ever find any evidence of one? See, this proves my contention that pink unicorns were inside the building with those assassins! There is *just as much evidence* for the pink unicorns as there is for the sniper or snipers you conjecture.


Meanwhile, you don't want to talk about the infinitely more important facts that at least one of the early shots was inaudible to most of the witnesses and none of them were loud enough to provoke the kind of reactions that followed 285 and 313.

Really, do I have to explain this every time you pretend to not understand the point?

I already pointed out some flaws with that, none of which you choose to address. You're likewise ignoring my points about what Connally heard (advancing a straw man rebuttal instead), you're ignoring your own admission that Connally said he heard both the shot and the impact of the shot on the head, and you're ignoring the true import of that statement (and of the other witnesses who said much the same thing) -- that one solution here is two shots and one sound of impact on the skull, not three shots.

And especially not your argument for suppressed shots, multiple shooters, and inventive interpretations of the eyewitness testimony and the Zapruder film.

The two shot-one impact sound scenario fits entirely those witnesses who reported two closely bunched, almost simultaneous 'shots'. Especially clear were Clint Hill and John Connally, both of whom explicitly mentioned one final shot and one sound of impact.



How could those shots have been fired from a high powered rifle that produced sound levels that were 16 TIMES LOUDER than the level which has been proven to cause involuntary startle reactions and permanent hearing loss with extended exposure??

Begging the question.


Don't you think THAT evidence is infinitely more important than that snipers did exactly what we should expect them to do, to avoid getting caught?

Along with the pink unicorns, Robert, along with the pink unicorns. They did exactly what we should expect pink unicorns to do as well, to avoid getting caught.

Hank
 
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I've already responded to your hotkeyed "cant trust the witnesses" pitch.

No, you just treated us to a couple of unproven assertions, adding additional unproven claims onto your original unproven claim to try to salvage the original unproven claim.


This was a law enforcement professional who was involved in the most important case of his life.

You know that how? Please tell us what other high-profile cases Ellsworth worked on, and how important his role was in each, and then we can decide if your assertion is true. On the day of the assassination, Ellsworth was in Dealey Plaza as a civilian, as I recall. He had no official duties. He pitched in to help search the building and that was, to the best of my recollection, the extent of his involvement in this case. How does that minimal involvement make him able to have perfect recall of everything he did that day decades later? Can you explain your argument here?


If you think he suffered some kind of delusion, then that's your prerogative.

Doesn't even come close to what I said. Just another straw man argument. Do address the points I make, not the ones you wish to pretend I made, to better rebut them.



It's strange though, that you never come to this conclusion about any of the cops who don't make inconvenient statements:)

Wow. What's strange about it? If six witnesses say the same thing shortly after the commission of a crime, and the hard evidence recovered tells the same story, and the autopsists determine the body confirms the eyewitness account and the hard evidence, why would *anyone* question the eyewitnesses recollection? It's strange that you would think this is a good rebuttal to Ellsworth's decades-later recollection, the problems for which I already pointed out in the past, and you ignored.

Here they are again:

== QUOTE ==
I see several reasons to doubt him.

1. There's no corroboration for his recollection.
2. His recollection is from decades after the fact.
3. The contemporaneous testimony and memos put the recovered weapon on the same floor as the recovered shells.
4. Photos and films show the weapon recovered was on the sixth floor.
5. No photos and films exist of this supposed other rifle.
6. Only one weapon was removed from the Depository on the afternoon of 11/22/63 - the MC with the serial # C2766.


Why should we trust the outlier recollection? Why do you put any credibility into it, when you can't remember what you were arguing a few hours earlier?

== UNQUOTE ==

You never answered any of this.


What I found interesting is that Ellsworth's story is a perfect match for the oft repeated claim that the police actually found a Mauser a the 6th floor.

Ellsworth's claim that a rifle was recovered on the fourth or fifth floor is a perfect match for a Mauser being found on the sixth floor?

And pink unicorns look exactly like purple cows.




Let's suppose, hypothetically, that they found a Mauser on the 6th floor and Oswald's rifle on the 5th.

Why? So you can introduce supposition, conjecture, and innuendo into the record and simply assume what you need to prove?



What would have happened over the weekend, if they were confronted by FBI people, enforcing the federal dictate that,

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

I already covered the Katzenbach memo in detail, showing how you were taking a few lines out of context, and ignoring Katzenbach's testimony explaining the memo, and how you were merely putting your interpretation of the memo in place of his explanation of the memo. You didn't address any of that. You ignored it. Repeating the same claims, and failing to address the rebuttal, isn't a good approach.


Are you beginning to understand why I have suggested that the most likely location for the other high powered rifle sniper, is the same floor that Oswald was on?

No. Not in the least. According to you, there weren't two rifles recovered on the sixth floor. Only one. According to the hard evidence (films and photos), the rifle found on the sixth floor was a Mannlicher-Carcano. And not just any Mannlicher-Carcano.

OSWALDS!

That was determined by a panel of experts working for the HSCA.

So according to you, if we believe Ellsworth's decades-later recollection, we need to discard, at a minimum:

The testimony of J.C.Day, among numerous others.
The films taken (Tom Alyea) of the rifle in the Depository (that must be a forgery)
The evidence photos taken by J.C.Day of the weapon in place.
The document created by J.C.Day affirming the weapon recovered on the sixth floor bore the serial number of C2766.
The films and photos taken by newsmen of J.C.Day leaving the building with a Mannlicher-Carcano on the afternoon of the assassination.

All of that record was created on the afternoon of the assassination. The memo you cite from Katzenbach (and wrench a few lines out of context) wasn't written until 11/25/63 - three days later. How did the memo reach back in time and get the films and photos altered?

All that needs to be thrown out *ACCORDING TO YOU* because you choose to believe Ellsworth couldn't mis-remember a floor he was on decades after the event.

Sorry, but that's not close to being a good argument by you. It's an absurdity.

I also note with some amusement that you're again arguing for yet another sniper (at least the fourth you've argued for), this one a second one on the sixth floor of the Depository.

So two in the Depository, one in the Dal-Tex, and one in front of the President. Any others?

Those four assassins, according to you, were responsible for a minimum of five shots, and yet the vast majority of the witnesses heard only three shots (or, in the case of two people closest to the President, Clint Hill and John Connally, just two shots and the sound of the impact of the final shot on the head).

Hank
 
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So many CT advocates think that being on a case of exceptional importance means recall and memory is inherently trustworthy, because an expert will always remember something so important.

This is untrue. Consider Charles Swanson, the officer in charge of the Jack The Ripper investigation. In his personal notes, scribbled I the margin of memoirs by another lead officer I the case, Swanson described how he identified the Ripper in an asylum, had him transferred to the Seaside Home (for convelescent officers) to be identified, before returning him to the asylum where he died shortly after. All exciting stuff, honestly remembered. But the seaside home had not opened in 1888, the witness named was not a violent maniac, and still had fifteen years to live.

Well that settles it for me!

If Charles Swanson forgot something, every cop who was involved in the JFK case, must have been delusional!

How do I compete with critical thinking like this?

Obviously, over the decades, the names and details of Polish Jewish suspects got confused and the name muddled. Or he managed to forget the most dangerous killer of his time could be released as a harmless schizophrenic at any moment.

This whole argument is ridiculous. At the risk of doing a little stereotyping myself, LN advocates arbitrarily declare ONLY inconvenient witnesses, AKA witnesses who contradict their favorite theory, to be delusional or liars. When is the last time one of you argued that Howard Brennan was full of crap:-)
 
Now you see the game.

Hi Jay.

According to the Warren Commission, most of the witnesses said they heard a single shot, followed by a delay and then "closely bunched" shots at the end.

Why do you suppose that so many people didn't hear more than one, early shot?
 
Well that settles it for me!

If Charles Swanson forgot something, every cop who was involved in the JFK case, must have been delusional!

How do I compete with critical thinking like this?

The statement beginning "If Charles Swanson forgot something..." is entirely your own invention. It doesn't follow at all from what Hank wrote—not even close.

Hank never said anyone was "delusional." If a person's memory is inaccurate, that is not (usually) a sign that they are delusional. It merely means they made a mistake.

By what (decidedly bizarre) "reasoning" do you read the critique of one recollection that doesn't pass muster when compared with all the physical evidence, documentation and contemporary witnesses as impugning "every cop who was involved"?

You have turned the definition of critical thinking on its head.

And how would you explain this odd phenomenon that only one person's memory, decades after the fact, would be correct, and everyone and everything else mentioned here, collected in 1963, wrong? Oh, right, you already told us. Magical cover-up fairy dust.

This whole argument is ridiculous. At the risk of doing a little stereotyping myself, LN advocates arbitrarily declare ONLY inconvenient witnesses, AKA witnesses who contradict their favorite theory, to be delusional or liars. When is the last time one of you argued that Howard Brennan was full of crap:-)

I guess it's just an odd coincidence, then, that the witnesses that support the non-conspiracist point of view do not contradict the physical evidence, documentation and other contemporary witness accounts.
 
The statement beginning "If Charles Swanson forgot something..." is entirely your own invention. It doesn't follow at all from what Hank wrote—not even close.

Great catch!

Except that as you can easily see, I wasn't replying to Hank. I was replying to post #3286.

Hank never said anyone was "delusional." If a person's memory is inaccurate, that is not (usually) a sign that they are delusional. It merely means they made a mistake.

Uh huh.

So what was Hank's best argument that proves Ellsworth made a mistake?
 
Loftus and others did some very good work in this area, and she wrote it up in a few very readable books. She's also a very nice lady.

How many cases did Loftus discover, in which such a large consensus of witnesses made exactly the same "mistake"?
 
Great catch!

Except that as you can easily see, I wasn't replying to Hank. I was replying to post #3286.



Uh huh.

So what was Hank's best argument that proves Ellsworth made a mistake?

I've spelled it out more than once already, but any critical thinker would already know the answer to that.
 
Great catch!

Except that as you can easily see, I wasn't replying to Hank. I was replying to post #3286.
Right. So:

The statement beginning "If Charles Swanson forgot something..." is entirely your own invention. It doesn't follow at all from what Tomtomkent wrote—not even close.
 
Loftus and others did some very good work in this area, and she wrote it up in a few very readable books. She's also a very nice lady.

Indeed. There are a lot of works that are very approachable to discover the limitations and expectations of witness testimony. I know this has been discussed at length elsewhere in the JFK threads, when the other Robert was trying to turn anybody and everybody to a medical witness.

It doesn't make people delusional, or dishonest. It just shows that memories years after an event may change and play tricks. The human mind likes patterns, it likes narrative, it will attempt to fit memories to a narrative.Assuming some kind cover-up over the effects of memory is a mistake. Memories are validated by objective evidence, not vice versa.

But some people want to believe the memory that best suits their story.
 
So what was Hank's best argument that proves Ellsworth made a mistake?

This is at least the fourth time for this list:

== QUOTE ==
I see several reasons to doubt him.

1. There's no corroboration for his recollection.
2. His recollection is from decades after the fact.
3. The contemporaneous testimony and memos put the recovered weapon on the same floor as the recovered shells.
4. Photos and films show the weapon recovered was on the sixth floor.
5. No photos and films exist of this supposed other rifle.
6. Only one weapon was removed from the Depository on the afternoon of 11/22/63 - the MC with the serial # C2766.

Why should we trust the outlier recollection? Why do you put any credibility into it, when you can't remember what you were arguing a few hours earlier?

== UNQUOTE ==

And the second time for this one:

== QUOTE ==
So according to you, if we believe Ellsworth's decades-later recollection, we need to discard, at a minimum:

The testimony of J.C.Day, among numerous others.
The films taken (Tom Alyea) of the rifle in the Depository (that must be a forgery)
The evidence photos taken by J.C.Day of the weapon in place.
The document created by J.C.Day affirming the weapon recovered on the sixth floor bore the serial number of C2766.
The films and photos taken by newsmen of J.C.Day leaving the building with a Mannlicher-Carcano on the afternoon of the assassination.

All of that record was created on the afternoon of the assassination. The memo you cite from Katzenbach (and wrench a few lines out of context) wasn't written until 11/25/63 - three days later. How did the memo reach back in time and get the films and photos altered?

== UNQUOTE ==


You can continue to avoid all the unpleasant evidence you want. But it does not improve your credibility, nor your argument.

Hank
 
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Jay, you made it clear that you know more about the case than I do. I am only seeking your expert opinions.

Hilarious. He's given them to you plenty of times. I've given you the testimony minus the spin you put on it. Others here have pointed out your errors repeatedly. At this point, you're apparently merely seeking to continue the conversation so it looks like you have a legitimate point to debate.

You don't.

Hank
 
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How many cases did Loftus discover, in which such a large consensus of witnesses made exactly the same "mistake"?

Still begging the question, Robert. You haven't established the "mistake", nor your theory, so you don't get to imbed that claim into an argument and ask the question as if it's legitimate. It's not.

This has only been explained to you ten or more times. Persisting in the repetition of logical fallacies doesn't improve your argument any.

I've already shown an alternate theory that explains the eyewitness recollections at least as well as yours, and doesn't invoke pop-up assassins in multiple locations that disappear without a trace, reactions by witnesses in a film that nobody else sees, and doesn't utilize recollections from decades after the fact, nor quotes from memos taken out of context.

You haven't even tried to rebut most of that, and the one thing you did try to argue with (that Connally heard a shot and the impact of a shot), you first said he never said anything like that, and then ultimately wound up agreeing with me that he did.

Stripped to its essence, your argument for a Z285 shot is simply your opinion, if you don't have the witnesses to buttress your argument. And you don't have Connally nor Hill. Why not revisit the witnesses and tell us how and why you know their claims of a 'double-bang' or 'two shots on top of each other' or 'two sounds almost simultaneous' at the end of the shooting fit your theory better than mine?

Hank
 
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Jay, I am indeed, seeking your expert opinion.

Your assertion that I am not, is begging the question, since you have no way of knowing my motives.

Is it possible Jay, that the reason you evade questions is that you know you will be challenged to support your answers?
 
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No, you just treated us to a couple of unproven assertions, adding additional unproven claims onto your original unproven claim to try to salvage the original unproven claim.

Please cite me verbatim, presenting unproven assertions.

This was a law enforcement professional who was involved in the most important case of his life.

You know that how?

Because there were no more important cases during his life time.

This was a law enforcement professional who was involved in the most important case of his life.

Please tell us what other high-profile cases Ellsworth worked on, and how important his role was in each, and then we can decide if your assertion is true.

Great argument! Perhaps this wasn't the most important case of his career. Maybe he investigated the death of God or the holocaust in Germany!:-)

On the day of the assassination, Ellsworth was in Dealey Plaza as a civilian, as I recall.

What exactly, did you "recall"?

This was a federal agent, in the middle of a weekday. Of course he was on duty.

He had no official duties.

I hate to break this to you, Hank, but searching a crime scene is indeed, an official duty.

Why are you trying so hard to demean the importance of someone investigating the scene of the most important crime of his career?

He pitched in to help search the building and that was, to the best of my recollection, the extent of his involvement in this case.

You may be right, but don't you think that constantly making unproven assertions is a poor way to resolve this case? I can say all kinds of things with the caveat, "to the best of my recollection", especially when I never had such a recollection:)

How does that minimal involvement make him able to have perfect recall of everything he did that day decades later?

It doesn't. Maybe he was wrong.

Doesn't even come close to what I said.

It doesn't matter what you said.

He had it right, or he lied, or he suffered a delusion. Let's review the citation,

Former ATF agent Frank Ellsworth, who participated in a second search of the Book Depository conducted after 1:30p.m. on November 22, 1963, confirms that the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the fourth or fifth floor of the building, "not on the same floor as the cartridges". He adds: "I remember we talked about it, and figured that he (Oswald) must have run out from the stairwell, to the lower floor and dropped it as he was running downstairs."

He was very specific about this. If we assume he was honest, then the only way he could be wrong, is if he suffered some kind of delusion, thinking back to an event that never happened.

I have a mother with Alzheimer's Hank. She never makes up events that didn't happen. She recalls events from her childhood and thinks they happened yesterday. She has thought I was her father. And she forgets all kinds of things, going back decades. But forgetting is not the same as having delusions. Delusions actually do occur in the final stages, but by then, the patient doesn't remember how to use the bathroom or even find it.

There is no reason to think that Ellsworth conjured up such a specific, detailed memory because he was deluded. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is certainly, unlikely.

Just another straw man argument.

No, it's just another case of you misrepresenting me. I never stated or even implied that he had "perfect recall of everything". You see, I am not trying to play debate games or employ tactics that no self respecting junior high school debater would use. I am here to talk about reality.

It's strange though, that you never come to this conclusion about any of the cops who don't make inconvenient statements

Wow. What's strange about it?

I think you got me on that one. It's not strange at all that you ONLY attack witnesses who disagree with you:-)

If six witnesses say the same thing shortly after the commission of a crime, and the hard evidence recovered tells the same story, and the autopsists determine the body confirms the eyewitness account and the hard evidence, why would *anyone* question the eyewitnesses recollection? It's strange that you would think this is a good rebuttal to Ellsworth's decades-later recollection, the problems for which I already pointed out in the past, and you ignored.

That would be a great argument if it were true.

But as we all know, the officers unanimously stated that the rifle found on the 6th floor, was a 7.65mm Mauser. Of course, we all know they changed their story, afterward - not only on the make of the rifle, but on the scope, which Weitzman described very specifically as a 2.5mm Weaver.

So, not only were those poor, dumb cops unable to identify the rifle, but the scope as well. But over the weekend following the assassination, we can be certain that the FBI was prepared to follow the instructions of Hoover and the Justice dept.

The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

Suddenly, the rifle changed, as well as the scope, and another piece of evidence that Oswald had confederates who are still at large
bites the dust:-)

I see several reasons to doubt him.

1. There's no corroboration for his recollection.

Think about it Hank. The cops were all persuaded to change their stories. But they obviously, forgot about Ellsworth, who didn't work at the DPD or the FBI office. He was an ATF agent - independent from the other agencies.

So, he didn't get the pitch.

2. His recollection is from decades after the fact.

And that proves his very specific description of events was false?

This was a federal officer for god's sake. And he had very clear recollections of other things the La Fontaines interviewed him about.

3. The contemporaneous testimony and memos put the recovered weapon on the same floor as the recovered shells.

The contemporaneous, documented description of the rifle found on the sixth floor was that it was a 7.65 Mauser.

weitz.jpg


4. Photos and films show the weapon recovered was on the sixth floor.

Begging the question. Prove that the photos and films were taken at the time of the search.

5. No photos and films exist of this supposed other rifle.

Begging the question again. How did you confirm that photos weren't taken that weren't released to the public.

6. Only one weapon was removed from the Depository on the afternoon of 11/22/63 - the MC with the serial # C2766.[/I]

Flagrant begging of the question. You have never proven that either.

[COLOR]Why should we trust the outlier recollection? [/COLOR]

For the same reasons we would trust any federal agent, other than those who were officially committed to a predefined conclusion.

I already covered the Katzenbach memo in detail, showing how you were taking a few lines out of context, and ignoring Katzenbach's testimony explaining the memo, and how you were merely putting your interpretation of the memo in place of his explanation of the memo. You didn't address any of that. You ignored it. Repeating the same claims, and failing to address the rebuttal, isn't a good approach.

I often ignore ridiculous statements.

1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

The second declaration at the top of the list was this,

"2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting the thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba , Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced."

Tell me Hank, why would they have wanted to "cut off" the notion that Oswald conspired with the commies or the fanatical right wingers? How could they have possibly felt certain about that, within 48 hours of the murder?

No. Not in the least. According to you, there weren't two rifles recovered on the sixth floor. Only one. According to the hard evidence (films and photos), the rifle found on the sixth floor was a Mannlicher-Carcano. And not just any Mannlicher-Carcano.

You have not proven the existence of ANY evidence which confirms that the rifle found on the sixth floor was Oswald's. All you really have is version #2 of the description of the rifle and scope that was found there, and a publicly stated policy that the FBI's main goal was to "convince the public" that Oswald acted alone.

Is is obvious, that they followed their orders quite well.

Oh, and before you start stereotyping me, understand that I am not saying that ANY of the cops or FBI people were "in on it" or had sinister motives.

I can remember sitting with my parents in the living room, watching coverage of the assassination, and me shooting my mouth off (hard to imagine that, eh:-) declaring that the commies were behind the assassination and that WW3 will be starting soon.

If the govt. had accepted what the DPD and pretty much everyone else suspected, there would have been a huge public outcry that we declare war on Castro, who was tightly allied with the Soviet Union.

And if such a crisis took place, my little prediction just might have come true. And on top of that, the US would have had a hard time maintaining the moral high ground, since we had been trying to assassinate Castro for nearly a year.

That's why I think Jackie was convinced to change her testimony and why some personnel at Parkland covered up evidence that the bullet which wounded the two victims was not CE399. It would also explain why a few people in the DPD agreed to help turn two rifles into one.
 
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It was a weekday? Then surely it is impossible for an agent to have a day of work! And nobody ever volunteered their service after a tragedy, of course it was an official duty. Why should these be shown to be true when they can just be said to be true?
 
It was a weekday? Then surely it is impossible for an agent to have a day of work! And nobody ever volunteered their service after a tragedy, of course it was an official duty. Why should these be shown to be true when they can just be said to be true?

Shifting the burden of proof.

It was Hank who declared that Ellsworth was "off duty" then. He is the one who needs to prove his assertion.
 
Shifting the burden of proof.

It was Hank who declared that Ellsworth was "off duty" then. He is the one who needs to prove his assertion.

Hank offered a caveat that allows him time to check on his facts. At some point he can offer an apology or a citation.

You made a statement of fact with neither.

You both have a burden of proof. But one of you has a track record of making good on this thread and doesn't this pointing out to him.
 
I would suggest that Hank "checked on the facts" before making assertions.

He bears the burden of proving his assertion and no lame, caveats relieve him of that burden.

No. As I said, I expect him to make good on his.

Alas your own statement has burdens of its own.
 
...

Oh, and before you start stereotyping me, understand that I am not saying that ANY of the cops or FBI people were "in on it" or had sinister motives.

I can remember sitting with my parents in the living room, watching coverage of the assassination, and me shooting my mouth off (hard to imagine that, eh:-) declaring that the commies were behind the assassination and that WW3 will be starting soon.

If the govt. had accepted what the DPD and pretty much everyone else suspected, there would have been a huge public outcry that we declare war on Castro, who was tightly allied with the Soviet Union.

And if such a crisis took place, my little prediction just might have come true. And on top of that, the US would have had a hard time maintaining the moral high ground, since we had been trying to assassinate Castro for nearly a year.

That's why I think Jackie was convinced to change her testimony and why some personnel at Parkland covered up evidence that the bullet which wounded the two victims was not CE399. It would also explain why a few people in the DPD agreed to help turn two rifles into one.

ZOMG! Of course! It's all so clear now- America, you've been so blind! You see, in order to avert WW3 with Castro/the USSR/communism, the American government at the time took the eminently wise decision to cover up for the true "perps"- the Mafia- and pin it all on a guy who sympathized with Castro, had lived in the USSR, and claimed to be a Communist!

Seriously- wouldn't blaming it on your actual conspirators, the Mafia "thugs," also have averted WW3? After all, they weren't notably Communist or Castro sympathizers- there wouldn't have been any clamor for war with someone not blamed, just to eradicate a group the government was at war with anyway.
 
ZOMG! Of course! It's all so clear now- America, you've been so blind! You see, in order to avert WW3 with Castro/the USSR/communism, the American government at the time took the eminently wise decision to cover up for the true "perps"- the Mafia- and pin it all on a guy who sympathized with Castro, had lived in the USSR, and claimed to be a Communist!

Seriously- wouldn't blaming it on your actual conspirators, the Mafia "thugs," also have averted WW3? After all, they weren't notably Communist or Castro sympathizers- there wouldn't have been any clamor for war with someone not blamed, just to eradicate a group the government was at war with anyway.

While providing LBJ to push through powers to clear house and wage war on (other) organised criminals. If we play the conspiracy game to the natural conclusion.
 
While providing LBJ to push through powers to clear house and wage war on (other) organised criminals. If we play the conspiracy game to the natural conclusion.

The fact is, Robert's entire system revolves around the sun of his "startle reflexes"- without that, the entire thing goes spinning off into directionless space. Even his far-flung Pluto of "Marcello!" is tethered to it, since the reasoning (such as it is) goes "startle reflexes prove shots too close together for LHO to have been the lone shooter, which proves conspiracy, which needs another suspect, therefore Marcello." There are periodic comets in the form of unspecified "other shooters." And now he's added an unnecessary, even contradictory, epicycle by claiming the gov't covered up for the true criminals to avert a world war with the commies (when blaming the true criminals would also have averted the war), by blaming a guy who was associated with the commies.

It's not a solar system rationally derived from all the evidence, it's a cartoony geocentric faith arrived at by choosing how to interpret some of it.
 
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