Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

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Well let us see what is actually in that video from Dec 30, 2014 especially @2:20.
Starts with lying about "sublimating volatiles over time surely would not create the sharp, rock-like appearance of the comet".
Sublimating volatiles over time in the low gravity of a comet are expected to produce the observed features.

A fantasy abut standard models never predicting "such things" as debris fields.

More argument from ignorance. Astronomers were not surprised that ices and dust formed "flat and smooth layers with distinct boundaries between them" on 67P.

A lie about the EU community doing experiments over the past 15 years. The EU community rarely does science and even more rarely does valid science experiments. They certainly have not done any experiments in cometary conditions, e.g. ices and dust in vacuum.

There is a repeated delusion that the trivial fact that electric fields move dust means that the comet features comprised of ices and dust can be explained this way.

There is a repeated delusion that there is only dust on the surface of 67P.

There is a bit of implied cowardliness by not properly citing images labelled "Experiment: Billy Yelverton" and "Experiment: Zane Parker". These look like EU cranks doing high school science level demonstrations rather than published scientific experiments.
 
jonesdave116 said:
Are we now allowed to call Thornhill the C-in-C of EU garbage? When I say C-in-C, obviously I mean cretin in charge. He has seriously lost it.
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I watched the first 10 minutes of that video and found so much ignorance and lies that I stopped before my brain exploded. Wallace Thornhill goes on for another 50 or so minutes so "seriously lost it" is a good description.
 
tusenfem said:
amazing results from rosetta's virtis team
water ice cycle on 67p/cg
http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2015/09/23/rosetta-reveals-comets-water-ice-cycle/
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Amazing!!!

The scientists have found that water ice is present on colder patches, while it is less abundant or absent on warmer patches. In addition, water ice was only detected on a patch of the surface when it was cast in shadow. This indicates a cyclical behavior of water ice during each comet rotation.
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Ice is less abundant where is HOT and more abundant where it's COLD...bloody amazing these scientist!!! :rolleyes:

And teams of people work on this?


but they are correct on the
This indicates a cyclical behavior of water ice during each comet rotation.
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What happens to the other volatile "ice's"???
 
Sol88 said:
Amazing!!!
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Yes, Sol88, real science is amazing :p!

ETA: Your quote does not appear in the linked article - it is in a caption for the first image. If you had actually read the article you would see that the cycle was found because water ice vanished and reappeared. It is not that water ices are abundant in shadows and less abundant elsewhere.
Rosetta reveals comet’s water-ice cycle
The team studied a set of data taken in September 2014, concentrating on a one square km region on the comet’s neck. At the time, the comet was about 500 million km from the Sun and the neck was one of the most active areas.

As the comet rotates, taking just over 12 hours to complete a full revolution, the various regions undergo different illumination.

“We saw the tell-tale signature of water ice in the spectra of the study region but only when certain portions were cast in shadow,” says Maria Cristina.

“Conversely, when the Sun was shining on these regions, the ice was gone. This indicates a cyclical behaviour of water ice during each comet rotation.”
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The paper is about the detection of water ice - the stuff you have fantasized before about not existing on comets. I doubt that the cycle exists for other volatile ices (no quotes!) since CO2, CH4, etc. generally freeze at much lower temperatures than H20. So a cycle that has H2O freezing is unlikely to have other ices freezing.
 
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Reality Check said:
Starts with lying about "sublimating volatiles over time surely would not create the sharp, rock-like appearance of the comet".

Sublimating volatiles over time in the low gravity of a comet are expected to produce the observed features.
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<ECH-supporter>I bet they set up a simulation and massaged the number until they got the answers they wanted. It's just common sense that ice wouldn't look like rock.</ECH-supporter>
 
Furthermore: for those interested, there will be a press conference from the EPSC with Matt Taylor, Matteo Massironi (OSIRIS Team, Univ Padova) and Fabrizio Capaccioni (VIRTIS Principal Investigator, INAF-IAPS) starting at 1300 GMT or 1500 CEST.
 
jonesdave116 said:
Interesting paper. Have there been/ will there be any measurements to look at possible surface charging? If it hasn't already been done, then I assume we'll have to wait until the comet is less active, and Rosetta is in a closer orbit.
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Tom already has a paper on Cassini measuring a psrtocle beam from Hyperion caused by surface charge. I have no knowledge of our rpc instruments measuring something similar. But analysis has just started, there is weeks and months of data to go through.
 
tusenfem said:
My friends Tom, Geraint and Andrew, and two others wrote a great paper about modeling Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.
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Good paper.
The electric comet supporters obsess with surface charging on comets as if it were something new but this has been thought about for 30 years or more!
Objects exposed to inflowing plasma and solar UV photons experience charging currents due to electron and ion bombardment, photoemission, and secondary electron emission (Whipple, 1981). ... It has been predicted that surface charging may also occur on cometary nuclei during periods of low outgassing activity, when solar wind plasma and solar UV photons are allowed direct access to the nucleus (Mendis et al., 1981). It has also been suggested that surface charging of the nucleus may lead to electrostatic levitation of small dust particles (Flammer et al., 1986, Juhász and Szegő, 1998 and Mendis et al., 1981) and that electrostatic dust blow-off may explain sudden changes in the observed brightness of comet Halley at large heliocentric distances (Flammer et al., 1986).
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Reality Check said:
Good paper.
The electric comet supporters obsess with surface charging on comets as if it were something new but this has been thought about for 30 years or more!
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Good Paper???

Great paper!

Pretty much confirmation of this whole thread (The Electric Comet) and most things I banged on about for 7 years :D

Hey, they even threw in spacecraft charging and the dust levitation on the moon!!! I can distinctly remember some members participating in this thread having a real laugh, doggie style if I recall, on these things.

Well I sit here now Reality Check and :dl: :dl:

Now onto the next problem (for the mainstream), 0.4 g/cm3 :blush:
 
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Sol88 said:
Good Paper???

Great paper!
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Followed by delusions and lies about the paper, Sol88.
The delusion that this scientific paper has anything to do with the electric comet dogma preached by the Thunderbolts cult is obvious.
No imaginary electric discharges in Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.
No insanity of comets being rocks in Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.
No ignorance of over 30 years of science in Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.

93 days and counting being afraid of doing simple physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.

Have you retained a blind belief in the "prophet" Wallace Thornhill after his latest delusional video about gravity, Sol88?
Wallace Thornhill has provided more evidence of "Drinking the Kool-Aid": Wallace Thornhill: The Long Path to Understanding Gravity | EU2015

Over 6 years of delusion about the density of comets from Sol88: The measured density of 67P is 0.4 g/cc.
10th July 2009 Sol88: Electric comet predicts density like asteroid: TOTAL FAIL :eek:!/URL]
 
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The absolute idiocy of EU fantasists that believe anything involving the word "electric" is somehow confirmation of their evidence-free fantasies! We have known about this for decades! It is not news! Go look at the science. Stop looking at aboriginal rock art and actually do some science. Or at the very least, try to understand it.
 
Sol88 said:
Good Paper???

Great paper!

Pretty much confirmation of this whole thread (The Electric Comet) and most things I banged on about for 7 years :D
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Complete b*llocks. You need idiotic voltages from some sort of currents to bake rock, turn it into O-, which we don't see, only O+, and then this must combine with the solar wind H+ moving at ~400km/s to produce water vapour? Sorry mate, get an education.
 
Reality Check said:
Followed by delusions and lies about the paper, Sol88.
The delusion that this scientific paper has anything to do with the electric comet dogma preached by the Thunderbolts cult is obvious.
No imaginary electric discharges in Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.
No insanity of comets being rocks in Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.
No ignorance of over 30 years of science in Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.

93 days and counting being afraid of doing simple physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.

Have you retained a blind belief in the "prophet" Wallace Thornhill after his latest delusional video about gravity, Sol88?
Wallace Thornhill has provided more evidence of "Drinking the Kool-Aid": Wallace Thornhill: The Long Path to Understanding Gravity | EU2015

Over 6 years of delusion about the density of comets from Sol88: The measured density of 67P is 0.4 g/cc.
10th July 2009 Sol88: Electric comet predicts density like asteroid: TOTAL FAIL :eek:!/URL]
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No imaginary electric discharges in [URL="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003206331500238X"]Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.??????????
 
Just show me, Sol88 qualitative and quantitative how this is supposed to work. Not just tiny quotes from press releases, but the whole thingamajik.

Charging of the comet nucleus
EDM on a singly charged nucleus
Release of oxygen ions (most likely positively charged)
Reaction with the solar wind protons (also positively charged, possibly highly energetic)

Please show in detail that the amount of water group ions that is observed around a comet and in its tail can be produced by this mechanism.

Hoping to hear back from you soon with the math and chemical reactions to back yourself up.

Yours truly
Tusenfem

Like this Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity
 
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Sol88 said:
Just show me, Sol88 qualitative and quantitative how this is supposed to work. Not just tiny quotes from press releases, but the whole thingamajik....
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Followed by not answering the actual question, Sol88, which is about your fantasy abut EDM:
Please show in detail that the amount of water group ions that is observed around a comet and in its tail can be produced by this mechanism.

Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity. is not about water group ions!

ETA:
6th July 2009 Sol88: tusenfem asks for the qualitative and quantitative mechanism by which EDM produces the amount of water group ions that is observed around a comet and in its tail
remains unanswered after over 6 years now except for the delusion that an electrostatic charge paper is about EDM.
 
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Sol88 said:
No imaginary electric discharges in Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.??????????
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Only the deluded will read about electrical discharges in Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity., Sol88. Thus the electrical discharges are imaginary.

But maybe someone with
will also be incapable of searching for the word discharge in a paper.
 
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Sol88 said:
Just show me, Sol88 qualitative and quantitative how this is supposed to work. Not just tiny quotes from press releases, but the whole thingamajik.

Charging of the comet nucleus
EDM on a singly charged nucleus
Release of oxygen ions (most likely positively charged)
Reaction with the solar wind protons (also positively charged, possibly highly energetic)

Please show in detail that the amount of water group ions that is observed around a comet and in its tail can be produced by this mechanism.

Hoping to hear back from you soon with the math and chemical reactions to back yourself up.

Yours truly
Tusenfem

Like this Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity
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Don't think you quite understood that, did you?
 
Reminding people about the long time that you have held fast to the Thunderbolts delusions and lies is not wise, Sol88
For example, the Predicted TWO flashes Which is confirmed... lie pops up on the first part of this thread on 10 July 2009!
The parroting of the Thunderbolts idiocy of "it looks like rock to me so it must be rock" dates from 10th July 2009 which includes the dependency on citing Internet physics cranks rather than learning science. More than 6 years, Sol88, and you have still not learned about the several ways that the density of comets have been measured!

31st July 2009 Sol88: Dancing David asked you "speccifically where the data is that shows that comets have a density comparable to an asteroid?" leads to the admission that There is none.

3rd August 2009: Sol88 ignorantly thinks that an astronomy textbook example of calculating the average density of asteroids is has the actual density of comets and asteroids are calculated. The problem is that there is little sign that Sol88 has progressed beyond that ignorance given the ongoing fantasy that comets are rocks.

3rd August 2009: The fantasy that plasma models have to do with the electric comet delusion.

10th April 2015: The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos, etc.
 
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Reality Check said:
Reminding people about the long time that you have held fast to the Thunderbolts delusions and lies is not wise, Sol88
For example, the Predicted TWO flashes Which is confirmed... lie pops up on the first part of this thread on 10 July 2009!

10th April 2015: The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos, etc.
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Lol. Is that the bit that Pete Schultz got right, and Thornhill completely ****** up? As in: "In this scenario (and in Scenario 1b), a three-component plume should be observed in the MRI and may allow the identification of this surface property.
i.T = 0.06 s (first frame): very weak flash.
ii.T = 1s (~17 frames): high-angle jet-like plasma plume due to cavitation and redirection back out the penetration funnel.
iii.T=1 to 20s: opaque spherical cloud forming a shadow above the
comet surface.
iv.T = 20 s to 100 s: high-angle ejecta plume extending >
10 km above the surface surrounded by a high-angle (~60?) ejecta curtain.
v.T > 200 s: advancing annulus of disturbed cometary surface near the
crater as low-velocity components return. High-angle central plume
may detach from the crater due to collapse and shut off of deep ejecta"

From: http://pds-smallbodies.astro.umd.ed...ience_reviews/crater_size_evolutn_schultz.pdf

Surprisingly, (?) written before the DI impact. Yet Thornhill says he was the first!
Wouldn't be surprised if he'd seen this and thought to turn it to his own advantage, given the scientific literacy of his followers (or lack thereof).
His problem was that the flash was on impact, and the larger flash was ~0.12 seconds later. The fact that neither the Chandra nor SWIFT X-ray satellites saw anything should also inform anyone who is reasonably scientifically literate, that this was not an electric discharge! Won't stop the idiots though.
 
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jonesdave116 said:
Lol. Is that the bit that Pete Schultz got right, and Thornhill completely ****** up?
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It is worse than that, jonesdave116.
Pete Schultz got this right.
Thornhill completely messed up, lied abut it and Sol88 still cannot understand that he has been lied to!
ThunderBolts Deep Impact predictions: Lying about flashes
Thornhill has a list of "confirmed" predictions which includes two flashes - one before impact from an electrical discharge and another on or after impact. That is a lie because there were two flashes on or after impact which is not a confirmation of his prediction.
ETA: On the other hand Thornhill only mentions an "advanced flash". That hints slightly that he thought that there would be no flash on impact!

P.S. The lies, failures and successes of Thunderbolts Deep Impact predictions from 28th November 2010!

That paper is great science: EXPECTATIONS FOR CRATER SIZE AND PHOTOMETRIC EVOLUTION FROM THE DEEP IMPACT COLLISION (PDF)
The NASA Discovery Deep Impact mission involves a unique experiment designed to excavatepristinematerialsfrombelowthesurfaceofcomet.InJuly2005,theDeepImpact(DI) spacecraft, will release a 360kg probe that will collide with comet 9P/Tempel 1. This collision will excavatepristinematerialsfromdepthandproduceacraterwhosesizeandappearancewillprovide fundamental insights into the nature and physical properties of the upper 20 to 40m. Laboratory impact experiments performed at the NASA Ames Vertical Gun Range at NASA Ames Research Center were designed to assess the range of possible outcomes for a wide range of target types and impactangles.Althoughallexperimentswereperformedunderterrestrialgravity,keyscalingrelations and processes allow first-order extrapolations to Tempel 1. If gravity-scaling relations apply (weakly bonded particulate near-surface), the DI impact could create a crater 70m to 140m in diameter, depending on the scaling relation applied. Smaller than expected craters can be attributed either to the effect of strength limiting crater growth or to collapse of an unstable (deep) transient crater as a resultofveryhighporosityandcompressibility.Largerthenexpectedcraterscouldindicateunusually low density (<0.3gcm−3)or backpressures from expanding vapor. Consequently, final crater size or depth may not uniquely establish the physical nature of the upper 20m of the comet.But the observed ejecta curtain angles and crater morphology will help resolve this ambiguity. Moreover, the intensity and decay of the impact “flash” as observed from Earth, space probes, or the accompanying DI flyby instruments should provide critical data that will further resolve ambiguities.
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It turns out that the crater was ~100 meters across so the gravity-scaling relations were good.
 
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Reality Check said:
It turns out that the crater was ~100 meters across so the gravity-scaling relations were good.
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Funnily enough. I was re-reading that paper today! Along with some old Halley stuff. Amazing how much stuff one accumulates when one has to do proper science, as opposed to just play at it!
 
I mean this statement KILLS sublimating subsurface ICE story DEAD!

Here we assume that the acceleration due to gas drag on the nanograin particles is negligible compared to that of electrostatic forces, and thus the kinetic energy of the charged nanograins should reflect the surface potential at the region of the nucleus from which they are emitted (e.g. Szego et al., 2014).
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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003206331500238XLInk
 
Sol88 said:
I mean this statement KILLS sublimating subsurface ICE story DEAD!
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How can it "KILL it dead" when it has already been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt? See the results from Tempel 1, 10 years ago. Probe hits comet, water comes out. Inconvenient truth.
 
Sol88 said:
Are you saying there can be no discharges in this system? :confused:
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We are saying what even high school science students know: electrostatic means charges that do not move on the objects in question (dust) :jaw-dropp. That means no current. That means no electrical discharges.
What is accelerated in the paper is electrostatically charged dust.
 
Sol88 said:
I mean this statement KILLS sublimating subsurface ICE story DEAD!
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That is a lie, Sol88.
Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity is not about sublimating subsurface ice..

Not a surprise from from someone
 
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Reality Check said:
We are saying what even high school science students know: electrostatic means charges that do not move on the objects in question (dust) :jaw-dropp. That means no current. That means no electrical discharges.
What is accelerated in the paper is electrostatically charged dust.
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What is accelerated in the paper is electrostatically charged dust.
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Please, Reality Check, you have my interest. Can you explain to this completely delusional gullible fool where the dust accelerated past 67P's escape velocity goes?

How fast is the acceleration? What speeds do the dust obtain? Anything like the speeds we observe from the sublimating "ice's" entraining dust?

Now the dust is charged what effects would we expect to see in the dynamically charged areas around the nucleus?

Could the "sand dunes" on 67P be from charged dust accelerating to a different area of charge on the surface of 67P and not sublimating gas?

Could the charged and accelerated dust act as a "coupler" between the diamagnetic cavity and the comets plasma-sphere thereby still allowing the solar wind access to the nucleus in beams of highly energetic particles accelerated thru known plasma processes?


who has spent 94 days and counting of being afraid of doing simple physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.
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Did the calculation but crater size was undetermined because an UNKNOWN amount of dust "fell" back into the crater, 'cos 50m seems a smallish crater for you story RC :(
 
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Sol88 said:
Please, Reality Check, you have my interest. Can you explain to this completely delusional gullible fool where the dust accelerated past 67P's escape velocity goes?
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A "completely delusional gullible fool" (as you put it, Sol88) wanting to show that they are non-gullible, non-delusional and non-foolish would read Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.
They would not do a Gish gallop of irrelevant questions.

The next step to take would be to to disassociate themselves from the completely delusional, ignorant liars of the Thunderbolts cult.

This might be unlikely from someone
Especially when they just fantasize about Deep Impact - the impact crater was observed to be ~150 meters in diameter (not 50m). The size of an impact crater in rock would be 7 meters across :jaw-dropp!

As pointed out on 25 June 2015 Sol88: On February 15, NASA scientists identified the crater formed by Deep Impact in images from Stardust. The crater is estimated to be 150 meters (500 ft) in diameter, and has a bright mound in the center likely created when material from the impact fell back into the crater.[46]
 
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Sol88 said:
Could the charged and accelerated dust act as a "coupler" between the diamagnetic cavity and the comets plasma-sphere thereby still allowing the solar wind access to the nucleus in beams of highly energetic particles accelerated thru known plasma processes?
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No, the Giotto probe only found ions of cometary origin within the cavity.

Did the calculation but crater size was undetermined because an UNKNOWN amount of dust "fell" back into the crater, 'cos 50m seems a smallish crater for you story RC :(
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Trust me, you would not get a crater of that size from a ~ 350 kg impactor, at 10 km/s into rock!
And that is an irrelevance anyway, given that the IR specrtometry unambiguously found emission lines from H2O vapour in the plume, and absorption lines from H20 ice in the ejecta.
Pete Schultz did mountains of lab work on potential crater sizes and plume development, among other things, using the NASA Ames vertical gun range. Umpteen various angles of impact, umpteen potential target strengths and compositions. I doubt there is anyone in the world that knows more about impact cratering than this guy. He was pretty much spot on for an oblique impact into a highly porous target.
 
The other side of what jonesdave116 points out is that an impact on rock produces ejected rock not ices!
6 October 2015 Sol88: Please cite the observations that Deep Impact ejecta contained no water or other ices.

That will be hard: A total of 5 million kilograms (11 million pounds) of water[40] and between 10 and 25 million kilograms (22 and 55 million pounds) of dust were lost from the impact.[38]
So at least 20% of the ejecta was water, not solid rock! I suspect that the Thunderbolts delusion will be that the impact magically changed rock into water and dust without producing boulders, stones, grains or rock vapor.
 
Reality Check said:
A "completely delusional gullible fool" (as you put it, Sol88) wanting to show that they are non-gullible, non-delusional and non-foolish would read Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity.
They would not do a Gish gallop of irrelevant questions.

The next step to take would be to to disassociate themselves from the completely delusional, ignorant liars of the Thunderbolts cult.

This might be unlikely from someone
Especially when they just fantasize about Deep Impact - the impact crater was observed to be ~150 meters in diameter (not 50m). The size of an impact crater in rock would be 7 meters across :jaw-dropp!

As pointed out on 25 June 2015 Sol88: On February 15, NASA scientists identified the crater formed by Deep Impact in images from Stardust. The crater is estimated to be 150 meters (500 ft) in diameter, and has a bright mound in the center likely created when material from the impact fell back into the crater.[46]
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So after all your challenges to me you are unwilling or scared to answer these basic questions based on the paperSurface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity

What happens to the dust accelerated beyond escape velocity?

Can you or Joesdavis 116 give that a go? :cool:
 
Sol88 said:
What happens to the dust accelerated beyond escape velocity?

Can you or Joesdavis 116 give that a go? :cool:
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Perhaps you'd like to answer this question: What the Hell relevance has it got?

As shown from the sputtering data, not to mention measurements at other comets, the solar wind, which causes the electrostatic effects, is barely, and sometimes never, reaching the surface, particularly as activity increases. We've known about this effect for a long time. It is part of mainstream science. I fail to see what relevance it has to what is going on at this or any other comet, when it comes to explaining what is/ has been observed.
Going by this logic, all the EU gubbins about electric discharges etc, should only occur when the activity is very low. It didn't.
Perhaps you could tell us what happens to other dust covered objects, such as large asteroids, or the Moon, due to this effect? And don't forget, these bodies don't have a shed load of cometary neutrals to block the solar wind from hitting the surface.
It might shift some dust around. So will outgassing, on a comet. Hard to see how this helps EU claims.
 
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