Questions about Hyperinsulinemia/Diabetes

Dr. Imago · Jul 4, 2005

Just stumbled into this thread to see how it was possible that a Kumarbotâ„¢ thread could still - yet again - manage to get >10 responses. Looks like Kumar has to bump his own thread a few times with some confusing, pseudo-provocative language to now get people to take the bait. Guess that's a bit of progress, in some small way.

MRC_Hans said:
On animal insulin: Especially in Asean countries, there is still some local production of animal insulin (it is a relatively cheap and low-tech process). The international market, OTOH is entirely dominated by the modern synthetic and analogues.

Hans

It's because animal insulin has the potential for becoming antigenic (mainly from the collection process). Synthetic insulin does not. But, when you're in a poor country, you use what you got.

So, Kumar... hope you give it up man. Most people have caught on that you're just trolling. And, you are an awesomely tenacious troll, I'll give you that. Still, I don't think I'm the only one here who's realized that there's little point in attempting to rationalize with you, especially since you fervently continue to demonstrate your recalcitrance to good science and basic logic, while repeatedly and continuously showing that you will ineluctably confuse the smoke for the fire. No point in attempting to disassemble your unique, countervailing view of reality - I accept that you truly perceive the sky to be purple, and I long ago gave up trying to convince you otherwise. Why? Because I've decided that I really don't care what you think. Besides, I've got much bigger fish to fry. And, you, my friend, are definitely nothing more than a very small fry.

-TT

Deetee · Jul 4, 2005

Apologies for adding extra fuel to the fire.....

http://main.pslgroup.com/news/content.nsf/MedicalNews/8525697700573E188525702A006A981A

Use of an anti-CD3 monoclonal antibody seems to be very promising.
Now we need Kumar to incorporate this into his pathological models for auto-immunity and diabetes.
Enjoy.

Deetee · Jul 4, 2005

ThirdTwin said:
So, Kumar... hope you give it up man. Most people have caught on that you're just trolling. And, you are an awesomely tenacious troll, I'll give you that. Still, I don't think I'm the only one here who's realized that there's little point in attempting to rationalize with you, especially since you fervently continue to demonstrate your recalcitrance to good science and basic logic, while repeatedly and continuously showing that you will ineluctably confuse the smoke for the fire. No point in attempting to disassemble your unique, countervailing view of reality - I accept that you truly perceive the sky to be purple, and I long ago gave up trying to convince you otherwise. Why? Because I've decided that I really don't care what you think. Besides, I've got much bigger fish to fry. And, you, my friend, are definitely nothing more than a very small fry.

-TT

Like you TT, I feel it is pointless trying to 'educate' Kumarbot(TM). There are bigger fish to fry, and if nothing else, experience of medical 'triage' has helped me get things into perspective.
There are indeed bigger fish to fry, I would rather expend some of my efforts debunking, say, antivaxers on the electronic BMJ than on trying to get blood out of a stone.

Badly Shaved Monkey · Jul 4, 2005

ThirdTwin said:
you will ineluctably confuse the smoke for the fire.

Good metaphor.

If you recall, behaviour such as this is a sign that KumarBot is functioning correctly as per the User Manual.

Badly Shaved Monkey said:
Done it!

I've finally worked out what the KumarBot is for.

It's a Scientific Perspective Adjuster, also call a Mis-Direction Device. At its heart is an amazing chipset recently released by the Wootel corporation under the trade name Irrelevant Correlator.

It functions to take trival, but, importantly, not untrue pieces of information and use them as the central core of a completely skewed model of reality.

This morning I entered some data concerning astrophysics and botany into the device and have calculated that daisies evolved to intercept solar photons and protect the outer Solar System from excessive levels of solar radiation.

I have a pre-production model and it is one of these we have been communicating with in recent months. Having ironed out a few teething difficulties in which some medical input failed to result in an answer involving Schussler's Tissure Salts or Homeopathy it will soon be released into the market. It will be available via all good crystal rubbing emporia under the name The Bass 'Ackwards Machine.

I am concerned that the device is not yet fully stable and this should be seen as a beta release. but if Microsoft can do this all the time, why shouldn't Wootel. Certainly users should watch for the Chelation Therapy instability in which data that should yield results that include only Schussler or Homeopathy have recently been contaminated with chelation theory.

Please note the device is fully feng-shui compatible.

Not to be operated under the influence of a scientific education or by persons with an IQ higher than their European shoe size.

Edited to add: Just worked out where the Chelation Therapy Drift was coming from. The Idee Fixe Compensator had become unstable allowing incompatible model schemata to cross-contaminate. I think it's repaired now. Please notify the technical staff at;

[email protected]

if further problems arise.

Mojo · Jul 4, 2005

Rolfe said:
Renal glycosuria, e.g. Fanconi syndrome. In my experience such patients are normoglycaemic, because the hormonal systems in place to prevent hypoglycaemia are multiply redundant, and all working. They probably just eat more.

Well, I'm just glad I managed to edit my post to insert the word "tend" before you replied to it!

Badly Shaved Monkey · Jul 4, 2005

While reviewing the system logs for KumarBot in order to answer Third Twin's question, Tech Support have been alerted to the fact that Xanta- The Trivial Focuser has gone off-line. Users should be reminded this device currently operates using Olaf/QII technology and this platform has never been fully stable.

It appears that a Fatal Exception has arisen in the RealityCheck module. It is hoped that this is a temporary fault. What seems to have happened is that a blockage or possible gas build-up in the AutomaticRearSluiceExit has caused an impaired output of UselessDatatm which normally emerges from the same interface device. We have bypassed the RealityCheck and the normal throughput of UselessDatatm will resume shortly. Fortunately our patented NavelGazer is able to substitute for the RealityCheck to ensure continuity of service.

We would like to remind users of our publicity material which states that "100,000 European doctors" use this device. As we also say in that material, "even a halfwit can obtain large volumes of output". The machine can generally be relied upon for a steady stream of SpecificallyProcessedAnalyticalMaterial suitable to obscure normal traffic on any internet forum. It is believed that the Queen of Englandtm has one.

I thank you for your support.

Please note: any resemblance to living persons, real or fictional, is entirely intentional. The Queen of Englandtm appears by courtesy of Mad Albert Enterprises and the Emperor of Mu

Mojo · Jul 4, 2005

[Wipes tea off screen]

Kumar · Jul 5, 2005

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=endocrin.box.59

Kumar · Jul 5, 2005

Mojo said:
Yes, this is the case in a healthy person. In type 2 diabetics the system isn't working properly.

How insulin secretion can be inactivated in case of hyperinsulinemia due to IR when glucose level can also be high?

That's why they have diabetes.Rolfe has just covered this above. Basically, the kidneys aren't really supposed to excrete glucose at all, but if the blood glucose level is sufficiently high, they are unable to cope and some of it ends up in the urine.

It may be common people eat more. There can be some limit of sugar usage. If extra is excreted in urine, what is problem in it.

Kumar · Jul 5, 2005

MRC_Hans said:
Hans

How then "weight stay constant or gain weight" can happen in many IR/T2 patients? Can it happen without fat stores?

They are not totally unable to metabolize glucose. But you imply that the excess glucose is converted directly by the excess insulin. This cannot happen.

Can weight/obesity increase without increase in fats? However, I suspect some weight increase due to accumulation of water trapped in incomplete metabolism of glucose in form of lactic acid o purvrate in tissue(not only in blood), but fats can be rlated to real obesity.

Yeah, but the reason is speculative. Either, the position of the fat somehow poses a greater load on the body, or it simply happens that the genentic disposition to be centrally fat goes together wit hincreases risk of diabetes.

I think fat storage limit is more important to understand. Central obesity is for the reason to suuply immediate energy in case of deficiency for which body may be getting some impression due to IR/non-metabolism. So body system may be opting for central obesity due to this reason of possibility of emergency requirement of fuel.

No, I may not. Excess insulin will result in hypoglycaemia if there is in insulin resistance. The two conditions go hand in hand, and it is a long-term process. No triggering.

There is a start or basic stage of any condition. Probably, our understandings may only be lacking this to understand the prime/basic causes first(alike just see whole outer tree not the roots). I doubt that Excess insulin can cause hypoglycaemia in some cases of IR. It is said that excess insulin is always present in IR patients.

Anyway, how pancreas react to persistant hyperinsulinemia alongwith hyperglycaemia in IR patients, can be important to understand?

Duh, that is the regulation that breaks down in type 2 diabetes. But strictly speaking, it is not excess insulin. The abnormally high level of insulin is the regulation system's response to IR: In order to keep the glucose metabolism going, the pressure is raised, that is, both BG and insulin levels are raised.

As above, but still bit irritating me.

Psst, Kumar, this is a thread about diabetes. You started it yourself. Of course I talk about diabetes . IR is a condition related to type 2 diabetes. Do you STILL not understand the distinction between type 1 and type 2?

Frankly, I am doubting that IR condition can be for genetic predispositionreasons as it can be reversed. Diabetes is a predisposition but IR can be modern lifestyle/environment's oriented.

Read Rolfe's explanation. My wording made it look as if it was some regulation system, this is probably not the case. At any rate, it is not sufficient. It might keep the patient from going directly in ketosis, but it certainly cannot keep the BG t onormal levels.

It would have been better if we could furthur understand this aspect bit deeply & seriously.

What is then glucose conversion into fats & its store?

It requires the glucose to be metabolized in cells, and well, that is what it doesn't get.

I have posted one image about glucose conversion in to fats. Are you sure insulin resistance also effects this conversion of glucos into fats & its store in fat cells?

Normally I would just refer a poster to the answer above, but things cannot seem to be itereted enough for you: None of the excretion systems are able to cope with a diabetes condition. Urine excretion may take the top off, but no more.

How excess intake of water & excess urination which commonly happens in diabetic patients before start of medication programme, can be related to it? Why it is reversed in IR patients on medications even though their BG levels are still higher?

By all means, Kumar, do check it properly. Time YOU did some of the work around here . I'm waiting for the result of your researches .

This thought has recently come to my mind & I will check it properly--in view of checking, if we are going against the natural mechanisms & if not creating man-made problems.

Kumar · Jul 5, 2005

MRC_Hans said:
On animal insulin: Especially in Asean countries, there is still some local production of animal insulin (it is a relatively cheap and low-tech process). The international market, OTOH is entirely dominated by the modern synthetic and analogues.

Hans

Can it be possible that just natural animal insulin only works in some patients but modern synthetic and analogues not? I think modern synthetic and analogues are now bit cheaper.

Kumar · Jul 5, 2005

ThirdTwin said:
Just stumbled into this thread to see how it was possible that a Kumarbotâ„¢ thread could still - yet again - manage to get >10 responses. Looks like Kumar has to bump his own thread a few times with some confusing, pseudo-provocative language to now get people to take the bait. Guess that's a bit of progress, in some small way.

Don't furthur encourage me to go to other forums which is already somewhat encouraged.

YOU SHOULD ALSO CONSIDER ROOTS AS A BASE PART OF WHOLE TREE. SO DON'T JUST LOOK AT WHOLE OUTER TREE PORTION BUT ALSO STUDY THE ROOTS. WHY GOD IS DISCOURAGING IT PRESENTLY, CAN BE UNDERSTOOD IN VIEW OF CURRENT AGE'S ENTITLEMENTS. ANYWAY, SOME FOOLS LIKE ME DO TRY FOR CURIOSITY OR HUMANITY WITHOUT CONSIDERING NOTHING CAN GO AGAINST GOD/NATURE'S SYSTEM/BALANCE.

It's because animal insulin has the potential for becoming antigenic (mainly from the collection process). Synthetic insulin does not. But, when you're in a poor country, you use what you got.

Do you want to say that either it is not antigenic in poor country to poor people or they just kill the animals & patients for some cost benefit? I think cost benefit may now be not much involeved.

So, Kumar... hope you give it up man. Most people have caught on that you're just trolling. And, you are an awesomely tenacious troll, I'll give you that. Still, I don't think I'm the only one here who's realized that there's little point in attempting to rationalize with you, especially since you fervently continue to demonstrate your recalcitrance to good science and basic logic, while repeatedly and continuously showing that you will ineluctably confuse the smoke for the fire. No point in attempting to disassemble your unique, countervailing view of reality - I accept that you truly perceive the sky to be purple, and I long ago gave up trying to convince you otherwise. Why? Because I've decided that I really don't care what you think. Besides, I've got much bigger fish to fry. And, you, my friend, are definitely nothing more than a very small fry.

People here or there still interact with me excessively do indicate otherwise & feel "something different & dynamic can be there/possible". If only trolling, I have many other places to just do that or I can easily search. I can also get all my required informations on internet or at other sites/ boards/e.mails. But all these things may be for some honest good purpose in the benefit of humanity as modern need of money & commercialization might have made people so greedy & addicted that carelessness, overseights, ignorances, weaknesses & intentional playing with human bodies can also be thought & which may not be absolutely denied.. Modern understandings may not be "absolute" and modern environment/lifestyle may not be so clean and healthful. So it may also be a MUST to keep us vigilent, updated and well informed about what we are getting in view of these modern poosibilities.

Donks · Jul 5, 2005

Kumar said:
YOU SHOULD ALSO CONSIDER ROOTS AS A BASE PART OF WHOLE TREE. SO DON'T JUST LOOK AT WHOLE OUTER TREE PORTION BUT ALSO STUDY THE ROOTS. WHY GOD IS DISCOURAGING IT PRESENTLY, CAN BE UNDERSTOOD IN VIEW OF CURRENT AGE'S ENTITLEMENTS. ANYWAY, SOME FOOLS LIKE ME DO TRY FOR CURIOSITY OR HUMANITY WITHOUT CONSIDERING NOTHING CAN GO AGAINST GOD/NATURE'S SYSTEM/BALANCE.

Kumar, if you're going to pretend to have a scientific interest in anything, stop bringing gods into th discussion on almost every thread. Sating "god did it" or "god wants it that way" is about as unscientific as you can get. It is an unscrutable refusal to look for an explanation.

Do you want to say that either it is not antigenic in poor country to poor people or they just kill the animals & patients for some cost benefit? I think cost benefit may now be not much involeved.

Stop pretending to read other people's posts and make up whatever meaning you want. ThirdTwin said that animal insulin can become antigenic. It can become antigenic whether you are in a poor country or in a rich country. It is still used in poor countries because they are poor and can't always afford a synthetic. Doctors will do what they can with what they have at hand, if that is animal insulin, animal insulin it is.

People here or there still interact with me excessively do indicate otherwise & feel "something different & dynamic can be there/possible".

No Kumar, they interact with you because they can't can't allow you to post drivel unchallenged, or because they believe that you might actually learn something some day. You'd think that getting "No." as an answer to every single theory you have had would tell you that there is nothing there.

If only trolling, I have many other places to just do that or I can easily search. I can also get all my required informations on internet or at other sites/ boards/e.mails. But all these things may be for some honest good purpose in the benefit of humanity as modern need of money & commercialization might have made people so greedy & addicted that careless, overseights, ignorances, weaknesses & intentional playing with human bodies can also be thought which may not be absolutely denied..

Oh yes, babbling in an internet forum is a well known way to benefit mankind. And, who is adicted to "playing with human bodies"?

Badly Shaved Monkey · Jul 5, 2005

Kumar said:
Can it be possible that just natural animal insulin only works in some patients but modern synthetic and analogues not? I think modern synthetic and analogues are now bit cheaper.

You're probably right. We should go back to using natural pig insulin in people.

Can you suggest how synthetic human insulin is different from natural human insulin?

clarsct · Jul 5, 2005

Badly Shaved Monkey said:
You're probably right. We should go back to using natural pig insulin in people.

Can you suggest how synthetic human insulin is different from natural human insulin?

Y'know...I had several smart-arse responses to this question...but I'm afraid Kumar would take them seriously.

*sigh*

Not to knock on BSM, but just for humor's sake. Ah well.

MRC_Hans · Jul 5, 2005

Kumar said:
Can it be possible that just natural animal insulin only works in some patients but modern synthetic and analogues not?

No. Modern synthetic and anlogues work better and are closer to natural human insulin than animal insulin. They work MUCH better.

I think modern synthetic and analogues are now bit cheaper.

Interesting. Every time you start a sentence with "I think", you are wrong. Every time. Makes you think, doesn't it ... wait, forget that ....

Now, I actually suppose that if animal insulin was to be produced in Denmark today, it would not be cheaper, but that is because we have built enormous, highly efficient plants for producing modern insulin. In third world countries, however, where labor is cheaper and technology expensive, the simple production of animal insulin is stil lcheaper.

Hans

Donks · Jul 5, 2005

Badly Shaved Monkey said:
Can you suggest how synthetic human insulin is different from natural human insulin?

I can! I can! Synthetic human insulin is not based on an inherent sense of right and wrong!

MRC_Hans · Jul 5, 2005

Kumar said:
How insulin secretion can be inactivated in case of hyperinsulinemia due to IR when glucose level can also be high?

Rephrase to make sense.

It may be common people eat more.

As mentioned, it is not uncommon.

There can be some limit of sugar usage.

Rephrase to make sense. (I expect t ouse this sentence a lot )

If extra is excreted in urine, what is problem in it.

It is a symptom of high BG, and high BG is a problem.

Hans

MRC_Hans · Jul 5, 2005

Kumar said:
Can weight/obesity increase without increase in fats? However, I suspect some weight increase due to accumulation of water trapped in incomplete metabolism of glucose in form of lactic acid o purvrate in tissue(not only in blood), but fats can be rlated to real obesity.

You simply don't have a clue. This is getting fun. Lactic acid is produced in anaerobic glucose metabolism. If you have increased lactic acid levels except short-term after exercise, you have serious respiratory problems.

But yes, water retention can lead to increased weight. Not relevant to this discussion, however.

I think fat storage limit is more important to understand.

See? Every time you say "I think". Not that you are much right at other times, still....

There is basically no limit to fat storage. Some people weigh over 300 kg.

Central obesity is for the reason to suuply immediate energy in case of deficiency for which body may be getting some impression due to IR/non-metabolism. So body system may be opting for central obesity due to this reason of possibility of emergency requirement of fuel.

WOW! Kumar discovers the reason for central obesity! Quick! Send your synopsis with documentation to the Lancet. Fame and fortune awaits you.

....

.... You don't have documentation?

Drat!

No, I may not. Excess insulin will result in hypoglycaemia if there is in insulin resistance. The two conditions go hand in hand, and it is a long-term process. No triggering.

There is a start or basic stage of any condition. Probably, our understandings may only be lacking this to understand the prime/basic causes first(alike just see whole outer tree not the roots).

Standard Kumarbot[tm] reply in face of defeat: Maybe our knowledge is lacking.

No, it is not. You are simply wrong. Deal with it.

I doubt that Excess insulin can cause hypoglycaemia in some cases of IR.

And you are wrong.

It is said that excess insulin is always present in IR patients.

No, raised insulin levels. It is not excess because the patient needs the high level to be able to metabolize glucose at all.

Frankly, I am doubting that IR condition can be for genetic predispositionreasons as it can be reversed. Diabetes is a predisposition but IR can be modern lifestyle/environment's oriented.

Doubt all you will. You remain wrong.

Read Rolfe's explanation. My wording made it look as if it was some regulation system, this is probably not the case. At any rate, it is not sufficient. It might keep the patient from going directly in ketosis, but it certainly cannot keep the BG t onormal levels.

It would have been better if we could furthur understand this aspect bit deeply & seriously.

so you don't think Rolfe's explanation is serious? You are incredibly arrogant.

I have posted one image about glucose conversion in to fats. Are you sure insulin resistance also effects this conversion of glucos into fats & its store in fat cells?

Clucose is converted in cells. Insulin helps glucose to be absorbed by cells. Cells with IR have difficulty absorbing glucose. Insulin does not interact with glucose outside cells.

(Yes, I'm sure).

How excess intake of water & excess urination which commonly happens in diabetic patients before start of medication programme, can be related to it?

Read Rolfe's post again. Look up the hard words. Take notes and memorize. If you work hard enough, you should be able to understand it.

Why it is reversed in IR patients on medications even though their BG levels are still higher?

Because their BG is not as high as before.

This thought has recently come to my mind & I will check it properly--in view of checking,

Whenever you think you are wrong. If you do check it properly, it will be a first for you.

if we are going against the natural mechanisms & if not creating man-made problems.

Oh, but I can tell you that. We ARE going against the natural mechanisms. The natural mechanisms for diabetes are skyrocketing BG, ketosis, coma, and death. We go against it and enable patients to live an almost normal life. Feel free to follow nature, if you prefer.

Hans

(edited for the friggin' codes)

Kumar · Jul 5, 2005

Donks said:
Kumar, if you're going to pretend to have a scientific interest in anything, stop bringing gods into th discussion on almost every thread. Sating "god did it" or "god wants it that way" is about as unscientific as you can get. It is an unscrutable refusal to look for an explanation.

Just for this I mention GOD/NATURE.

Stop pretending to read other people's posts and make up whatever meaning you want. ThirdTwin said that animal insulin can become antigenic. It can become antigenic whether you are in a poor country or in a rich country. It is still used in poor countries because they are poor and can't always afford a synthetic. Doctors will do what they can with what they have at hand, if that is animal insulin, animal insulin it is.

He has indicated "mainly from collection process" which can also be different in poor countries. As I told price difference between animal & human synthetic insulin on poor countries is negligible on per day bases.

No Kumar, they interact with you because they can't can't allow you to post drivel unchallenged, or because they believe that you might actually learn something some day. You'd think that getting "No." as an answer to every single theory you have had would tell you that there is nothing there.

No, or other words can be common in dynamic/different thoughts.

Oh yes, babbling in an internet forum is a well known way to benefit mankind. And, who is adicted to "playing with human bodies"?

Who may be earing more & adding to diseases...probably. Money adiction can also be thoght, and more money may cause craving of getting more money--alike alcohol/durgs addictions & cravings. Can an addicted person do more advesities due to his craving?

Questions about Hyperinsulinemia/Diabetes

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