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JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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Too bad the HSCA earshot experiment observers almost always reported the correct origin of a gunshot from the TSBD and the Knol.
You're mentioning the data collected by the experts, but ignoring the conclusions they rendered. Why is that?


If the echo was that bad, not as many people would have recalled hearing exactly three shots. Cue that with the witnesses who saw a puff of smoke and/or a flash of light, smelled gunpowder etc., and you have a problem.

You already lost this argument when you argued that the witnesses who named only one source of shots could have been mistaken and influenced by other factors. Do you remember arguing FOR the misperception of the witnesses?

Wouldn't your perception of the origin of the last shot you hear skew your perception of the other shots that came before?

You can't salvage your argument by turning around and arguing these witnesses couldn't be mistaken... you already admitted they could.

And on the subject of three shots, which you argue for above, you actually believe in many more than three, don't you? You've argued for several missed shots (two at a minimum), and of course, we have a shot to JFK's head [making 3], another shot that wounds JFK (and Connally) [4]. If you don't believe in the supposed "magic bullet", that adds another shot for separate shots to wound each man [5]. If you don't believe the bullet that struck JFK in the back exited his throat, that's another bullet for the anterior throat wound [6]. If you believe a shot to the head of JFK came from the right front [7], that's another bullet. So how many bullets do you think were fired that day, and why reference the three shots reported by the witnesses, if you don't believe in anywhere near that few?

Hank
 
A majority of witnesses, no matter where standing, heard one shot followed by two shots closely bunched together.

Asked and answered. See my responses earlier in this thread and in the prior threads to Robert Harris.


Just more lame hand-waving of the loud and startling gunshot at 285.

Your assumptions about what caused that detectable squiggle in the Zapruder film due to a motion blur by Abraham Zapruder's hand movements are not evidence. You're not, as far as I know, an expert qualified to testify in court regarding this. You don't get to go from a random squiggle on a film to a "loud and startling gunshot at 285". That's not the way it works.


If you insist on three shots from the TSBD, they did it with an automatic gun.

How'd they get this automatic weapon in and out of the building? There's absolutely no evidence of an automatic weapon being used or being found anywhere in the area.

I'll point out that your reconstruction doesn't conform to what Governor Conally recalled... He said the three shots took, in his estimation, ten to twelve seconds, but he also said the three shots were so close together he thought an automatic weapon was being used -- like many, if not most witnesses, his testimony is confusing, if not impossible, to reconstruct. However, his testimony is clear on this point (about the 10-12 seconds), but almost never quoted by conspiracy authors. Instead, they quote only his last sentence in this response:

Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time.

One must also remember that Connally testified he didn't hear the middle shot, only the first and third. So that's 10-12 seconds for two shots. Hardly indicative of an automatic weapon, despite his testimony to that effect. If you can make sense of his account, I'd love to hear it.


If there was a missed shot before 190-224, most people didn't hear it so it might've come from a gun with a suppressor.

Or it didn't happen. Many of the Secret Service agents heard only two shots. And all the wounds can be accounted for with only two shots. Please provide your reconstruction, along with the total number of shots you think were taken, and the evidence for that.

Hank
 
You're the one claiming that a shot from someone with the experience of Oswald from the 6th floor TSBD from that window with that rifle would be easy. You brought it up, how all it took to convince you of the official story was standing around in Dealely Plaza and going to the assassination museum. I enjoy listening more than getting into literally endless online arguments.

That was me, and I stand by this statement.

It was my "aha!" moment. It would have been impossible not to hit JFK from the 6th Floor. I, like many JFK Cters, had been lead to believe that it was next to impossible to make any of the shots from that location, and that FBI marksmen couldn't replicate Oswald's shooting, and that the Carcano was a lousy weapon.

The "truth" was that the FBI marksmen, and others who've followed them have had to recreate the shooting in safe locations, and almost always with a moving cardboard target on a pulley system - not with a vehicle and dummies. The few times where they have used a car and dummies the shots are much more accurate. Elm Street's painted dividing line and curbed sidewalk presents a shooter with a visual "kill sack", or "kill funnel" where the eye is drawn toward the target through forced perspective.

The Carcano is not an M-1 Garand, but it's a capable weapon. The most important factors are it's accuracy and range (up to 1,000 meters). Oswald didn't have to be a great shot, and he was 2 out of 3, which is on par with his USMC shooting scores.

There are plenty of videos on YouTube demonstrating the Carcano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1ayL8RXJTs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZLbaC3Gp-8

This one is fun, it shows the Carcano engaging a target from 650 yards away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZLbaC3Gp-8

And yes, you can find videos where JFK CTers can't hit anything with the Carcano, but the internet is dominated by gun-bunnies posting shooting videos, and the majority of those show the Carcano could - and did - do the job.

The conspiracy theories all fell apart by the time I'd left the JFK Museum in Dallas. The fact that everything looks bigger on T.V. and in the movies was brought home to me. Dealey Plaza isn't very big, and a gunman behind the picket fence would have been seen by EVERYBODY.

Look, I get it, a lot of smart people have been sucked into the JFK Assassination CTs over the years, and most made the mistake that I did by assuming that those promoting the theories knew what they were talking about. The majority did not and do not.
 
If the shots are so impossible how comes so many people can repeat them, within the timeframe?
 
Just more lame hand-waving of the loud and startling gunshot at 285. If you insist on three shots from the TSBD, they did it with an automatic gun. If there was a missed shot before 190-224, most people didn't hear it so it might've come from a gun with a suppressor.

1. Automatic gun? Guess again.

6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, 6 shots in 5.1 seconds.


2. Suppressor? Those don't work like they do in the movies. The shots would still be heard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXc0rm6dzVs
 
Debating about LHO marksmanship is a red herring. The WC never established that LHO ever brought a rifle to the TSBD. The only person who could provide first hand observation of Oswald walking into the TSBD that morning was Wesley Frazier and he flat out described the package that LHO carried and it was not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano.
 
Debating about LHO marksmanship is a red herring. The WC never established that LHO ever brought a rifle to the TSBD. The only person who could provide first hand observation of Oswald walking into the TSBD that morning was Wesley Frazier and he flat out described the package that LHO carried and it was not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano.

When you say it wasn't capable of carrying the rifle, is that in your own estimation, Frazier's, or an expert's? Did Frazier give exact dimensions of the package, or are you just making a blind leap based on a single eyewitness's testimony and your own preconceived conclusions?
 
Debating about LHO marksmanship is a red herring. The WC never established that LHO ever brought a rifle to the TSBD. The only person who could provide first hand observation of Oswald walking into the TSBD that morning was Wesley Frazier and he flat out described the package that LHO carried and it was not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano.

Here's Frazier's testimony- some excerpts:
Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.Mr. BALL - It was, what part of the back seat was it in?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was in his side over on his side in the far back.
Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?
Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.Mr. BALL - From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?
Mr. FRAZIER - If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.
...
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.
...
Mr. FRAZIER -Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.
[My highlights]

He "flat-out" estimated "roughly" (his words) the size of a package he says at least twice he "didn't pay much attention to"- and this is what you want to hang your hat on for "it was not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano"?

This has been done to death, NO, so let me ask you something that may get the conversation off the usual CT dime- what level of proof would you require to accept that Oswald carried a package that could have contained the rifle into the Book Depository? This is just for starters; look up "consilience" to see what your real problem is- how much other evidence for Oswald's guilt you're going to need to explain (or handwave) away. It's no part of reasonable doubt to take this anti-consilient approach.
 
Debating about LHO marksmanship is a red herring. The WC never established that LHO ever brought a rifle to the TSBD. The only person who could provide first hand observation of Oswald walking into the TSBD that morning was Wesley Frazier and he flat out described the package that LHO carried and it was not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano.

So you are suggesting LHO could not have fit the rifle in a package based on the memory of an estimate of size... Instead of the package that was found.

Can you provide a better explanation for the physical evidence that requires fewer new assumptions than a flawed judgement of size?
 
If LHO didn't bring his gun to the SBD, who did? Because it was certainly there, and LHO held it (his palm print is on it). Who brought it and who shot it, if not LHO?
 
So you are suggesting LHO could not have fit the rifle in a package based on the memory of an estimate of size... Instead of the package that was found.

Can you provide a better explanation for the physical evidence that requires fewer new assumptions than a flawed judgement of size?
Bringing up the bag is immaterial to linking LHO and the rifle. The size of the package is not even the issue. First, the bag was not photographed when found, there is no direct evidence that the found bag was even used to house the rifle on November 23rd. There were two key elements NOT photographed and they were: 1) the bag and 2) the Mannlicher Carcanno magazine clip. If there was empirical proof that these two items existed at the TSBD then it could be discussed but there wasn't. Maybe you can explain why everything was fingerprinted and filmed at the scene but not these two components. Where is the evidence that LHO took the rifle into the TSBD?
 
Bringing up the bag is immaterial to linking LHO and the rifle. The size of the package is not even the issue.
And yet, you were the one who brought up the bag and its size, as supposedly, by Frazier's testimony, "not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano"; and now that Frazier's testimony about the size of the bag has been shown to be a weak reed for you to lean on, it's "not even the issue." :rolleyes: Well, let's see where the goalposts go...
First, the bag was not photographed when found, there is no direct evidence that the found bag was even used to house the rifle on November 23rd. There were two key elements NOT photographed and they were: 1) the bag...
Jesus wept...you just got through saying the bag was immaterial. Which is it now?
...and 2) the Mannlicher Carcanno magazine clip. If there was empirical proof that these two items existed at the TSBD then it could be discussed but there wasn't. Maybe you can explain why everything was fingerprinted and filmed at the scene but not these two components. Where is the evidence that LHO took the rifle into the TSBD?

Well, the bag is immaterial, right? The rifle was photographed in situ- see here for a good photo that can be enlarged. No, you can't see the clip from that angle; and if it were moved so the clip could show, then it would no longer meet your demanding standard for "empirical proof" since it would no longer be in situ, would it? But here's a photo of Lt Day leaving the building with the rifle, with the clip still in it. I suppose you could (and probably will) say that the clip was put in after the rifle was moved from its photographed position; but you could say that for any point after it was moved from a position where it wasn't possible to see or photograph the particular part of it you're now hinging your conspiracy on, couldn't you?

So what this all really comes down to is the usual CTist game, the demand for a level of proof, for one bit of evidence, that's impossible to meet; and thinking that that is enough to overturn the consilience of all the other bits. Did you ever look that word up, btw? Here's a hint- the case against LHO doesn't depend on a chain of evidence, where all you need to do is break a single link. It's a web of strands that are independent of each other, yet still work all together to support the conclusion at the center.
 
Debating about LHO marksmanship is a red herring.

A 'red herring' is a logical fallacy where a change of subject is introduced. Since we were previously talking about other issues, the only one changing the subject here is you.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

Description of Red Herring

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1.Topic A is under discussion.
2.Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3.Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.


The WC never established that LHO ever brought a rifle to the TSBD.

They established Oswald's MC rifle was discovered there 45 minutes after the shooting. Since when is it necessary to establish how it got it? This is misdirection of the finest kind. Name one other shooting where it was incumbent on the prosecution to establish that the accused brought the weapon to the crime scene.

Did the prosecution have to establish Hinckley brought his handgun to the scene of the Reagan attempt? How about Sara Jane Moore or Lynette Fromme's attempts on Ford?

This is a silly argument and shows how barren your arguments are. You can't argue it's not his weapon, so you must argue someone else brought his weapon to the crime scene and he didn't.

First, let's look at the evidence it was his weapon:

There's an order form that was determined to be in his handwriting for the order of a rifle from Kleins.
There's a money order that was determined to be in his handwriting to pay for the rifle.
There's business paperwork at Kleins indicating a specific rifle - bearing the serial number C2766 - was shipped to the PO Box owned by Oswald.
There's a palmprint on the weapon determined to be Oswald's.
There's fingerprints on the trigger guard determined to be Oswald's.
There's photographs of him in possession of this weapon.

Taken together, that evidence indicates Oswald ordered, paid for, owned and possessed that rifle. It was, and this is beyond dispute (although you will attempt to dispute this too), Oswald's rifle that was found on the sixth floor.

Separate from that, there's evidence his weapon was used in the assassination.

Three shells traceable to that weapon were found at the sixth floor south-east corner "Sniper's Nest" window.

Two large fragments - most likely from the head shot - traceable to that weapon were found in the limo after the assassination.

A nearly whole bullet - mostly likely the bullet that went through JFK and struck Connally - traceable to that weapon was found in Parkland hospital after the assassination.

There's testimony that indicates it was normally hidden in the Paine garage wrapped within a blanket.

There's testimony indicating Oswald brought a long package to work that day (From Frazier and his sister) and there's evidence Oswald lied in custody about bringing a long package to work that day (he claimed he didn't, and that Frazier must have been mistaken about that).

A long package was found at the depository near the sniper's nest window bearing Oswald's prints that was long enough to contain his disassembled weapon. The package was made in the recent past few days from paper normally used at the depository to prepare books for shipment.

I am curious how you explain all this away, not least about Oswald lying in custody about bringing a long package to work that day.


The only person who could provide first hand observation of Oswald walking into the TSBD that morning was Wesley Frazier and he flat out described the package that LHO carried and it was not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano.

You've already seen the quotes; Frazier said he wasn't paying attention and it was only an estimate.

So on the one hand we've got all that evidence Oswald brought a long package to work long enough to contain HIS rifle which was found on the sixth floor (and then lied about it!); and on the other hand, we've got a couple of witnesses who estimated the length of the package as about two feet (it was actually closer to three feet).

I know what I find most reasonable here. I'd loved to hear your scenario.

I'd really love for you to marshall the evidence that can overturn the obvious and reasonable conclusion that the two witnesses estimates were incorrect, and then show all the evidence that there was anyone else on the face of the earth living at that time that fit this criteria:
(a) Knowledge that Oswald owned a rifle
(b) Knowledge that the rifle was hidden in the Paine garage wrapped in a blanket
(c) Access to the Paine garage
(d) Access to the Depository.

So far, I've come up with one name that fits all four criteria:
Lee Harvey Oswald.

Your additions (and the evidence for those additional names) are invited.

But absent any additions, then the evidence eliminates everyone else and leaves only Oswald as the person who had the knowledge and the access necessary to get the gun from its normal hiding place and transport it to the depository.

Hank
 
Bringing up the bag is immaterial to linking LHO and the rifle. The size of the package is not even the issue.

Then why'd YOU bring it up above, claiming the issue was not this marksmanship, but the eyewitness testimony of Wesley Frazier that eliminated the rifle as it was measured to be longer than Frazier's estimates of its length?

Do you remember advancing the very argument you are now claiming isn't the issue? Let me remind you now that WAS your original argument:

...The only person who could provide first hand observation of Oswald walking into the TSBD that morning was Wesley Frazier and he flat out described the package that LHO carried and it was not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano.

Now you want to claim that's not important. We knew that. You were told that.


First, the bag was not photographed when found,

And properly so. There is direct testimony that a crime lab trainee (Studebaker) inadvertently picked up the bag before it was photographed it place. He admitted to this error. The proper way to handle the evidence thereafter is to take it into evidence but NOT place it back into the scene and photograph it. That was done. Is your argument that the police were too dumb to frame Oswald properly, or they simply fouled up the collection of one piece of evidence (which wouldn't make it inadmissible in any case). The bag still exists. It's still long enough to contain Oswald's rifle. It's still got his prints on it. What point were you trying to make?

Studebaker's testimony:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/studebak.htm


Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)

See here: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0336a.htm

Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down - I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.
Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, there is something that looks like steam pipes or water pipes in the corner there?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where was that with reference to those pipes - the paper wrapping?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Laying right beside it - right here.
Mr. BALL. Was it folded over?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was doubled - it was a piece of paper about this long and it was doubled over.
Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know - I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.



...there is no direct evidence that the found bag was even used to house the rifle on November 23rd

Good thing, too, because that would indicate the police inserted the rifle into the bag the day AFTER the assassination, in an attempt to frame him. Whether you know it or not, the assassination was on 11/22/63, and the rifle and the bag were both found that day, and both were taken into evidence that day (11/22/63). I have no idea why you're discussing the next day, unless you think the assassination actually happened on the 23rd. It didn't.


...There were two key elements NOT photographed and they were: 1) the bag...

Asked and answered.


...and 2) the Mannlicher Carcanno magazine clip.

The weapon was photographed in place amongst some boxes. It is concealed sufficiently that it doesn't show the clip. However, the rifle contain a clip and the clip was photographed within the rifle as the rifle was taken from the Depository and transported by J.C.Day to the crime lab.

You can see the clip protruding from the rifle here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/day_clip.gif

Your arguments are straight from the original critical literature (raised by folks like Mark Lane, Harold Weisberg, and Sylvia Meagher). And they are disproven by the 11/22/63 evidence that the critics - and you - ignore.


If there was empirical proof that these two items existed at the TSBD then it could be discussed but there wasn't.

Both now asked and answered. The clip was photographed by newsmen immediately outside the depository. When the rifle was taken back to the crime lab by J.C.Day, he executed a brief note describing the clip separately:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/dpd-1242.gif

The clip is in the National Archives. Here's the archival photos.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/ammo_clip.jpg

What more do you want?

Is it your theory that the rifle was planted without a clip (to frame Oswald as a lone assassin) by bungling conspirators? Or what? Did the police then rush a clip into the building so it could be photographed within the rifle as the rifle was brought from the building? Or is this just smoke and mirrors from the conspiracy theorist crowd that isn't a mystery when you know how they do the trick? Do put up a scenario we can compare to the Oswald-did-it scenario and weigh it against the extant evidence.


Maybe you can explain why everything was fingerprinted and filmed at the scene but not these two components. Where is the evidence that LHO took the rifle into the TSBD?

Maybe you can explain how your arguments fit together into a cohesive whole and are establishing a point, rather than picking at scabs and attempting to draw blood that way? Where is the evidence that anyone else took the rifle into the depository? Who else was seen bringing a long package to the Depository that morning? Anyone besides Oswald? Who else left prints on a bag and a weapon? And left ballistics evidence - three shells, two fragments, and one nearly whole bullet - that indicated his weapon was used in the assassination? Anyone?

And remember, the rifle photographed in the depository (and in other images like the above one showing the clip as the rifle was removed from the depository) were studied by the HSCA photographic panel of experts and they determined the weapon in those photos was the C2766 rifle shipped to Oswald's PO box -- and the one shown in his possession in the famous backyard photos.

So, show us the evidence for anyone else having the knowledge that Oswald owned the weapon, hid in in the Paine garage, and had access to the garage and the Depository Building to smuggle his weapon in when he brought in a smaller package (and then lied about that smaller package!)

So do tell us your evidence for anyone besides Oswald committing this crime.

Nothing you've advanced thus far even comes close.

Hank
 
Debating about LHO marksmanship is a red herring. The WC never established that LHO ever brought a rifle to the TSBD. The only person who could provide first hand observation of Oswald walking into the TSBD that morning was Wesley Frazier and he flat out described the package that LHO carried and it was not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano.

The problem is that they found the package in the TSBD, it contained curtain rods. Oswald had stocked Dealey Plaza locations at night, and likely snuck the rifle inside on one of his night trips into town. That package was likely to sneak the rifle out of the building had the assassination not been pulled off.

Plus his finger prints were on the weapon.
 
Bringing up the bag is immaterial to linking LHO and the rifle. The size of the package is not even the issue. First, the bag was not photographed when found, there is no direct evidence that the found bag was even used to house the rifle on November 23rd. There were two key elements NOT photographed and they were: 1) the bag and 2) the Mannlicher Carcanno magazine clip. If there was empirical proof that these two items existed at the TSBD then it could be discussed but there wasn't. Maybe you can explain why everything was fingerprinted and filmed at the scene but not these two components. Where is the evidence that LHO took the rifle into the TSBD?

The rifle itself.
The palm print upon the rifle.
The bag itself.
That the rifle was in the TSBD.

The simplest and easiest explanation for the existence of the paper wrapping, the location of the rifle, and the palmprint upon the rifle is that LHO took it into work.

Please offer an alternative explanation that best fits this evidence with fewer complications.
 
And yet, you were the one who brought up the bag and its size, as supposedly, by Frazier's testimony, "not capable of containing the broken down Mannlicher Carcano"; and now that Frazier's testimony about the size of the bag has been shown to be a weak reed for you to lean on, it's "not even the issue." :rolleyes: Well, let's see where the goalposts go...

Jesus wept...you just got through saying the bag was immaterial. Which is it now?

Well, the bag is immaterial, right? The rifle was photographed in situ- see here for a good photo that can be enlarged. No, you can't see the clip from that angle...

And it should be pointed out that the first photo on that page was taken by Detective J.C.Day of the Dallas Crime Lab. The second photo on that page (inadvertently showing a knee in the foreground) was taken by Day's crime lab trainee, Robert Studebaker. It's Studebaker's knee in the image, taken as he looked down on the scene.

Critics made a big deal of the second photo in the late 1960's, arguing it showed how inept the Dallas Police Department was, as they couldn't even take a legitimate crime scene photo without such amateur-hour (or 'Keystone Kop') nonsense. You don't see that criticism anymore, as the conspiracy argument has coalesced around a massive, well-coordinated conspiracy to frame Oswald... so nobody tries to paint the DPD as inept much these days.

Of course, they never showed the first photo (taken by J.C.Day, without a knee), nor did they inform their readers that the photo with the knee in it was taken by a trainee on the job less than two months.

They also did things like contrast photos of the boxes at the sniper's nest taken by J.C.Day with those taken later by Studebaker, arguing that the boxes must have been moved, and therefore the crime scene photos are staged.

But again, Studebaker made clear he took photos of the sniper's nest as a training exercise, AFTER the boxes were photographed by Day, and after they were picked up and fingerprinted. He made all that clear in his testimony, and made clear that his photos had no evidentiary value.

Unless one actually reads the testimony, one will never appreciate the depth and breadth of the lies coming from the conspiracy theorist side.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; we just had one camera.
Mr. BALL. What kind of camera was it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's a Graflex, a 4 by 5 Speed Graflex.
Mr. BALL. Have you had some experience in operating a camera?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How much?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on this certain camera?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. About 2 months.
Mr. BALL. But you have had photography in your crime lab work?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. For how long?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Was about 2 months.
Mr. BALL. How long have you done photography altogether?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. In my lifetime?
Mr. BALL. No, as one of the assistants in the crime lab, what period of years?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. 2 months. I went to the crime lab in October, the 1st of October.

. . .
[LATER]
Mr. BALL. Did you take this picture?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that was after the boxes were dusted.
Mr. BALL. That's after they were moved?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's when we was trying to get some prints right there.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any pictures of the boxes before they were moved other than those you have showed me?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just these two.
Mr. BALL. Just the two that show the cartons, and those are Exhibits A and B?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have probably got one down there I can get you that is a lot better print than that. If you want a better print, I can get it for you.
Mr. BALL. Then, you don't have any pictures taken of the boxes before they were moved?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.
Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you another picture which we will mark as "Exhibit D," was that taken by you?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
(instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit D," for identification)
Mr. BALL. Does that show the position of the boxes before or after they were moved?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's after they were dusted - there's fingerprint dust on every box.
Mr. BALL. And they were not in that position then when you first saw them?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

But critics won't tell you the truth about this case, because otherwise they have no case.

Hank
 
Bringing up the bag is immaterial to linking LHO and the rifle. The size of the package is not even the issue. First, the bag was not photographed when found, there is no direct evidence that the found bag was even used to house the rifle on November 23rd. There were two key elements NOT photographed and they were: 1) the bag and 2) the Mannlicher Carcanno magazine clip. If there was empirical proof that these two items existed at the TSBD then it could be discussed but there wasn't. Maybe you can explain why everything was fingerprinted and filmed at the scene but not these two components. Where is the evidence that LHO took the rifle into the TSBD?

The bag was photographed, The clip was in the rifle. Had you a point to make?
 
The bag was photographed, The clip was in the rifle. Had you a point to make?

The bag wasn't photographed in place, because it was picked up inadvertently by a crime-lab trainee (Robert Studebaker) - which is exactly the right way to handle it once the initial mistake is made. It's these kind of easy-to-understand, simple-to-explain 'anomalies' in the evidentiary record that is the life-blood of the JFK assassination conspiracy theorists.

There must be a bigger, better explanation, they insist. It can't be simple happenstance, they believe. This MUST be evidence of a conspiracy. Every mistake or failure to dot an i or cross a t, every anomaly is further evidence of this conspiracy -- or so the thinking goes. But that's as far as the thinking goes.

They never extend the argument to its logical conclusion. For example, they never explain, if the bag is part of the frame-up, why the police *didn't* simply put the bag into the scene and photograph it there. If they did that, there's no anomaly for them to quibble over. They never come up with that better explanation; they never advance a reasonable, detailed scenario, they never supply any evidence of conspiracy.

And they never will. Because it only happened one way. And it's not the way they want it to be.

Oswald shot JFK, alone and unaided.

Hank
 
The rifle itself.
The palm print upon the rifle.
The palm print, it turned out, was the only place where a print was notated. Prints were not found on the cartridge and that is where you expect to find one. The big question is why would LHO be so careful not have fingerprints on something that required touching and not be careful with the stock? Either you have prints all over the rifle or you have a case where it was wiped clean... in this situation, you have neither. As for the print that the FBI found, below is the testimony of Det. Studebaker.

Mr Ball :
Did you lift any prints?

Mr Studebaker :
There wasn’t but just smudges on it — is all it was. There was one little ole piece of a print and I’m sure I put a piece of tape on it to preserve it … just a partial print.

Mr Ball :
The print of a finger or palm or what?

Mr Studebaker :
You couldn’t tell, it was so small.

Lt. Day fingerprinted the bag and found none.... yet, the FBI found a palm print in their Chicago office. An interesting note is that both Day and Studebaker claimed to have found the bag independent of each other.

The bag itself.
The Dallas police did not find prints but the FBI did. Who do you believe? Even more puzzling is how did the bag that is claimed to have hidden the rifle get to the home of Ruth Paine? Wesley Frazier testified under oath that LHO did not bring anything home with him on the 22nd of November. There were no traces of oil on the paper bag as there were no traces of paper bag on the rifle. On page 97 of the Warren Commission Hearings Vol. IV a Mr. Cadigan of the FBI stated that he could not find any evidence that a rifle was ever housed in the bag. If that bag was used there would have been evidence of a well oiled rifle in the bag.. plus a Spectrographic test was conducted and found no metal tracings.
That the rifle was in the TSBD.
The rifle was never proven to be in the hands of LHO at TSBD and the rifle was NEVER tested to see if it had even been fired on the 23rd of November.

The simplest and easiest explanation for the existence of the paper wrapping, the location of the rifle, and the palm print upon the rifle is that LHO took it into work.
Wrapping paper was at the TSBD all the time and nobody has come forward and said that LHO made a bag. When did LHO make the bag? As I stated before, Frazier said LHO did not take anything home on the 22nd and the previous visit to the Paines (by LHO)was the prior week and the President's motorcade route was not finalized. Plus, the tape used is the tape that is gummed at the source and the tape dispenser is bolted down to the bench, so LHO could not have constructed the bag away from the TSBD. Nobody saw LHO and the rifle together, if you feel otherwise... please provide those names.

Please offer an alternative explanation that best fits this evidence with fewer complications.
I am saying that the evidence provided does not prove that LHO was even a shooter.provided does not prove that LHO was even a shooter.
 
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