JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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HSienzant said:
Great. Now you post the names of the Dealey Plaza witnesses who came forward on 11/22/63 to say they say a sniper rifle near the sewer location you identified.

You have none.

Hank
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I wouldn't expect a conspiracy with multiple shooters to pick a bad hiding spot. Like others have pointed out, the area at the fence near the storm drain was pretty close to where civilians were standing, but simply parking a car behind where you're shooting would provide a fair amount of privacy.

EDIT: Oh, and it seems to me that JFK is a case in which witnesses are murdered just for seeing something they shouldn't have.
 
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Border Reiver said:
Given that the patch was looked at 20 years after the incident, how is that indicative of anything?

Curbs get replaced and repaired all the time. Not fixing the chip by 1983 would be indicative of poor repair practices in the Dallas Civic works department, not a criminal desire to cover up evidence.
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The curbstone was removed on August 4, 1964. The chip would have been visually no different from any other tiny chip on a sidewalk, but some shills filled it with crack sealant because they were worried it wouldn't fit with their story. This is historical fact.
 
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MicahJava said:
I wouldn't expect a conspiracy with multiple shooters to pick a bad hiding spot. Like others have pointed out, the area at the fence near the storm drain was pretty close to where civilians were standing, but simply parking a car behind where you're shooting would provide a fair amount of privacy.

EDIT: Oh, and it seems to me that JFK is a case in which witnesses are murdered just for seeing something they shouldn't have.
Click to expand...

Can you cite a proven instance (outside of the St. Valentine's massacre or similar criminal acts) of multiple shooters on a single target?

2nd bolded? all other witnesses to a crime got out of here alive?
 
MicahJava said:
I see what you mean, it would be pretty close, however there were trees and parked cars which may have clocked the view of anyone standing there.
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Nope, guess again. That storm drain is at the place where the Grassy Knoll wooden fence meets the concrete overpass. There were no intervening trees or parked cars between the men on the overpass and that corner in 1963.

Again, Lee Bowers was behind your supposed assassin, twelve railroad workers were on the overpass to his right, a police office was on the south side of that overpass (to his right back - behind the railroad workers) and two parking lot attendants were to his left.

Go to this site to see your storm drain location from the other side of the fence: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.778...4!1ssnW7YSZlqCyYuAUPE3HV3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here's an overhead map taken shortly after the assassination (click on the "2" balloon). Your sniper location is located at the point along the fence nearest the "C" within the circled area.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/fullpage/d...ssassination-interactive-infographic-20953305

Here's a 3D interactive model of Dealey Plaza.
https://sketchfab.com/models/6d7e22cb0968419482cfddc092c80e54

Anyone shooting from near the ground at that storm drain is shooting through tree trunks and shrubbery at Z313. I've been there. I've stood in that sewer.

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
What?
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I thought it was perfectly clear.

You seem to be assuming *patch* means to cover with something.

It doesn't only mean that. It also means a specific spot, like in "this barren patch of earth where my dog constantly urinates". Are you arguing the "patch" above is covered with something to conceal it's bereft of grass?

But you seem to think every reference to *patch* means it was covered with something in an attempt to conceal.

You haven't established that. In fact, you appear to be assuming exactly what you need to prove.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/patch

PATCH: a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

Our dog has a black patch on his back.
The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.
There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.
This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.
The curb has a patch where a bullet or bullet fragment appeared to hit it.

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
Okay, I'll repeat myself. If you accidentally take a picture on the camera you're holding as a startle response to a loud gunshot, that's the kind of thing that would make a distinct impression on a person's mind. It would be unlikely for someone to fabricate such a memory. So Willis Slide 5 is good evidence for a loud shot before Z224.
Click to expand...

How much of a reaction time did Willis have? What's the objective evidence for that? Unlikely is not impossible. Unlikely is your subjective opinion.

Hank
 
HSienzant said:
Nope, guess again. That storm drain is at the place where the Grassy Knoll wooden fence meets the concrete overpass. There were no intervening trees or parked cars between the men on the overpass and that corner in 1963.

Again, Lee Bowers was behind your supposed assassin, twelve railroad workers were on the overpass to his right, a police office was on the south side of that overpass (to his right back - behind the railroad workers) and two parking lot attendants were to his left.

Go to this site to see your storm drain location from the other side of the fence: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.778...4!1ssnW7YSZlqCyYuAUPE3HV3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here's an overhead map taken shortly after the assassination (click on the "2" balloon). Your sniper location is located at the point along the fence nearest the "C" within the circled area.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/fullpage/d...ssassination-interactive-infographic-20953305

Here's a 3D interactive model of Dealey Plaza.
https://sketchfab.com/models/6d7e22cb0968419482cfddc092c80e54

Anyone shooting from near the ground at that storm drain is shooting through tree trunks and shrubbery at Z313. I've been there. I've stood in that sewer.

Hank
Click to expand...

Although there were parking spots which could block the view of someone standing at the overpass, I'll say that I won't count on there being anybody shooting from the sewer itself.
 
MicahJava said:
I wouldn't expect a conspiracy with multiple shooters to pick a bad hiding spot.
Click to expand...

Except that location is particularly horrendous. As it turns out, a shooter there doesn't have a shot until after the assassination was over. And what's the evidence for a shooter conspirator AND a firecracker conspirator?

None, right?


MicahJava said:
Like others have pointed out, the area at the fence near the storm drain was pretty close to where civilians were standing,
Click to expand...

And two police officers - J.W.Foster and J.C.White
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/foster.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0394a.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/white_jc.htm

Mr. BALL - Did you have a special assignment on November 22?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - 1963. And what was that?
Mr. FOSTER - That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it.
Mr. BALL - That was the overpass, the railroad overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you - the overpass runs in a north-south direction?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you call it the triple overpass, why?
Mr. FOSTER - Three streets coming through there.
Mr. BALL - What are they?
Mr. FOSTER - Commerce, Main, and Elm.
Mr. BALL - I have a map that I will - just a moment. I will get it.
Mr. FOSTER - All right.
(off the record)
Mr. BALL - Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?
Mr. FOSTER - I was standing approximately along the - I believe the south curb of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; at the east - be the east side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL - On the east side of the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.


Mr. BALL. Now, on November22. 1963, did you have an assignment?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm. Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the north curb of Main? That would be--
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.


MicahJava said:
... but simply parking a car behind where you're shooting would provide a fair amount of privacy.
Click to expand...

You'd need cars on every side of the assassin. Because he was surrounded by potential witnesses to his right, left, and back.


MicahJava said:
EDIT: Oh, and it seems to me that JFK is a case in which witnesses are murdered just for seeing something they shouldn't have.
Click to expand...

And there's that RED HERRING again.

You can't justify everything by just switching subjects every time you're asked for evidence to justify your claims. And what witnesses on the overpass were killed to keep them quiet? Or other witnesses for that matter?

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
The curbstone was removed on August 4, 1964. The chip would have been visually no different from any other tiny chip on a sidewalk, but some shills filled it with crack sealant because they were worried it wouldn't fit with their story. This is historical fact.
Click to expand...

No, it's not. You're assuming what you need to prove.

PATCH: a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

Our dog has a black patch on his back.

The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.

There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.

This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.

The curb has a patch where a bullet had apparently struck it.

Hank
 
MicahJava said:
Snipers forming a triangle on one target is a military tactic.

http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCWP 3-11.3 Scouting and Patrolling.pdf

The TSBD, the Dal-Tex, and the grassy knoll form a triangle.
Click to expand...

Great! Thanks.

I'll provide the evidence of a weapon and shells found in the TSBD, and cite the witnesses who came forward on 11/22/63 to claim they saw a rifle or a man with a rifle in the TSBD. I'll also cite the evidence that this weapon fired the bullets that struck JFK twice, and Connally once. Or you can save me the trouble and say you're aware of that evidence.

Will you cite the evidence of weapons and name the witnesses that saw these men/weapons & cite the evidence that these other supposed shooters struck anything in Dealey Plaza? And left behind ANY evidence of their existence? Anything at all?

Hank
 
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JayUtah said:
That's essentially my argument. When one visits this public space and walks around it to investigate the various hypotheses, one comes away distinctly believing either that those authors have never been to the plaza or that they intend their theories for people who have never been there. Nearly all these alternate hypotheses require people to act in secret in circumstances where they would be easily detected.
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I would add to this accurate statement the fact that professionals (Special Forces, black-ops types of the day, Mafia hitmen, etc) would never take the risk of shooting from the Grassy Knoll, or the drain (stupidest idea ever) or one of the other buildings except for their roof-tops. Ballistics and forensics shows that didn't happen.
 
MicahJava said:
What's the difference? The picture was taken before Z224.
Click to expand...

You're the one arguing that there was no earlier shot when you first got here, I thought.

MicahJava said:
I think anybody would come to realize that there was no "first missed shot". I used to accept it, until I read this summary of the eyewitness accounts which show that the first shot had to come at around Zapruder frame 190-224.
Click to expand...

So you think there was a shot somewhere between 190-202, accounting for Willis' photo?

Can you tell us your thinking there -- how did you determine Willis' reaction times objectively, for example, and how you narrowed down the first shot to no earlier than Zapruder frame 190?

Hank
 
HSienzant said:
Except that location is particularly horrendous. As it turns out, a shooter there doesn't have a shot until after the assassination was over. And what's the evidence for a shooter conspirator AND a firecracker conspirator?

None, right?




And two police officers - J.W.Foster and J.C.White
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/foster.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0394a.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/white_jc.htm

Mr. BALL - Did you have a special assignment on November 22?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - 1963. And what was that?
Mr. FOSTER - That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it.
Mr. BALL - That was the overpass, the railroad overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you - the overpass runs in a north-south direction?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you call it the triple overpass, why?
Mr. FOSTER - Three streets coming through there.
Mr. BALL - What are they?
Mr. FOSTER - Commerce, Main, and Elm.
Mr. BALL - I have a map that I will - just a moment. I will get it.
Mr. FOSTER - All right.
(off the record)
Mr. BALL - Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?
Mr. FOSTER - I was standing approximately along the - I believe the south curb of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; at the east - be the east side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL - On the east side of the overpass?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.


Mr. BALL. Now, on November22. 1963, did you have an assignment?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm. Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the north curb of Main? That would be--
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Yes.




You'd need cars on every side of the assassin. Because he was surrounded by potential witnesses to his right, left, and back.




And there's that RED HERRING again.

You can't justify everything by just switching subjects every time you're asked for evidence to justify your claims. And what witnesses on the overpass were killed to keep them quiet? Or other witnesses for that matter?

Hank
Click to expand...

The evidence for a shooter in that area? A loud noise, a puff of smoke, Kennedy's head and body moving back and to the left, debris from Kennedy's head being thrown back, perhaps the people who smelled gunpower should be included as well. When you have powerful stuff like that, I am not too bothered that nobody (except Ed Hoffman and the possibility of Lee Bowers) claimed to see an actual gunman.
 
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HSienzant said:
No, it's not. You're assuming what you need to prove.

PATCH: a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

Our dog has a black patch on his back.

The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.

There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.

This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.

The curb has a patch where a bullet had apparently struck it.

Hank
Click to expand...

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12
The piece of curb was examined in 1983 and the area struck by the bullet/fragment and was proven to be smoothed over with some kind of crack sealant. I copypasta'd the proof earlier in the thread.
Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12
 
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HSienzant said:
You're the one arguing that there was no earlier shot when you first got here, I thought.

So you think there was a shot somewhere between 190-202, accounting for Willis' photo?

Can you tell us your thinking there -- how did you determine Willis' reaction times objectively, for example, and how you narrowed down the first shot to no earlier than Zapruder frame 190?

Hank
Click to expand...

There was no shot before Z190 because almost no witness said anything that could reasonably be interpreted to that affect. Anybody who argues a first missed shot before Z190 will notice that Kennedy is obviously smiling and waving at that time. No witness ever said that Kennedy was smiling and waving moments after the first loud shot.

There is some photographic evidence for Kennedy reacting to something around Z190. The HSCA photographic panel report detailed it, and more info can be seen in this paper: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weis... Disk/Journal of Forensic Science/Item 01.pdf
 
MicahJava said:
Snipers forming a triangle on one target is a military tactic.

http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCWP 3-11.3 Scouting and Patrolling.pdf

The TSBD, the Dal-Tex, and the grassy knoll form a triangle.
Click to expand...

No Go - squad tactics in the Corps or other milorgs isn't proof of anything at Dallas, and even the fm you linked to isn't oriented towards sniping.

From your source:

1. PURPOSE

Marine Corps Warfighting Publication (MCWP) 3-11.3, Scouting and Patrolling,
provides the doctrinal foundation and the tactics, techniques, and procedures for scouting and patrolling conducted by Marines from the fire team to the company level.Although the information focuses on infantry units, much of the information is also applicable to combat support units that are assigned patrolling missions.

In the Corps, snipers work as two man teams, and they for sure aren't utilized as fireteams
 
Oh no... Somebody didn't really cite JFK moving back and to the left as evidence?

Again?

Ok kids, join in with the list:

1) He moves forwards first.
2) He isn't knocked back by the bullet.
3) Why is all that ejecta flowing TOWARDS the apparent shooter?
4) What happens when JFK falls forwards as far as his back brace allows, what way does he fall then?
 
Tomtomkent said:
Oh no... Somebody didn't really cite JFK moving back and to the left as evidence?

Again?

Ok kids, join in with the list:

1) He moves forwards first.
2) He isn't knocked back by the bullet.
3) Why is all that ejecta flowing TOWARDS the apparent shooter?
4) What happens when JFK falls forwards as far as his back brace allows, what way does he fall then?
Click to expand...


I was fully prepared to accept that Kennedy moved forward first, however I can see the point in saying that this may actually be an optical illusion caused by the frame blurring.

https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi

Download the high-quality cropped Zapruder frames here and alternate between frame 312 and frame 313. You will see the unique way in which frame 313 blurs: The glares from the limousine get stretched, Connolly turns into a football head, Kellerman's sideburns get pulled back, and the creases in Jackie's clothing become wider. It could be that the forward head movement might be an illusion.

You could make the argument that the Orville Nix film shows Kennedy's head moving forward at frame 23, however this might actually make a better equivalent match for Z314 where Kennedy's head leans significantly to the left. Download Orville Nix frames here: http://hdblenner.com/nixframes.htm

Also, the Zapruder film shows debris being shot in all directions. We know that blood and other matter was blown backwards from other facts from the day, like people in the motorcade being hit with blood.
 
MicahJava said:
The evidence for a shooter in that area? A loud noise,
Click to expand...

I thought you were suggesting a silenced weapon?


MicahJava said:
a puff of smoke
Click to expand...

There were steam pipes running along that fence.

Mr. BALL - What did you do then?
Mr. WEITZMAN - I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall.
Mr. BALL - What is the location of that wall?
Mr. WEITZMAN - It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's cater-corner--the section there between the--what do you call it--the monument section?
Mr. BALL - That's where Elm actually dead ends?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands grabbed steampipes. I burned them.
Mr. BALL - Did you go into the railroad yards?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you notice in the railroad yards?
Mr. WEITZMAN - We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going different directions.





MicahJava said:
Kennedy's head and body moving back and to the left
Click to expand...

You're back to assuming what you must prove.
There have been at least four different possibilities for what causes JFK's head to move backwards:

(a) Neuromuscular reaction.
(b) Jet effect
(c) Chin compressed against chest, rebounds back
(d) Gunshot from right front.

Tell me how you eliminated the first three and decided on the fourth, especially since there's no evidence of damage to the head from a shot from the right-front


MicahJava said:
debris from Kennedy's head being thrown back
Click to expand...

What debris? The Zapruder film shows a massive explosion coming out the right front of the head, and debris being blown forward (including what most likely is the Harper fragment, which was found forward of the President's limo at Z313).


MicahJava said:
perhaps the people who smelled gunpower should be included as well
Click to expand...

Not sure why you would want to count that... a rifle expels the gasses from the barrel at almost the speed of the bullet.


MicahJava said:
When you have powerful stuff like that, I am not too bothered that nobody (except Ed Hoffman
Click to expand...

Hoffman came forward for the first time on record how many years after the assassination?


MicahJava said:
and the possibility of Lee Bowers) claimed to see an actual gunman.
Click to expand...

Bowers never said anything about seeing a gunman.

Nobody -- but NOBODY -- came forward on 11/22/63 and said they saw a gunman on the knoll or anywhere except the TSBD.

And where's the physical evidence of this gunman? Or the Dal-Tex one you conjectured?

Hank

PS: You have the circle in the wrong spot for the man shooting from the storm drain. It should be further to the right, where the fence meets the overpass (under that last tree to the right and behind the fence). The circled location doesn't correspond to the storm drain location.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/tPv54FB.jpg[/qimg]
 
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MicahJava said:
Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12
The piece of curb was examined in 1983 and the area struck by the bullet/fragment and was proven to be smoothed over with some kind of crack sealant.
Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12
Click to expand...

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove response to moderated content
You copy/pasted references to a patch, but a patch is also, as I pointed out:

PATCH
a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

- Our dog has a black patch on his back.
- The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.
- There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.
- This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.
- The curb has a patch where a bullet apparently struck it.


You are assuming your definition is the one that was meant by the references to the 'patch'.

You are assuming what you need to prove.

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
I was fully prepared to accept that Kennedy moved forward first, however I can see the point in saying that this may actually be an optical illusion caused by the frame blurring.

https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi

Download the high-quality cropped Zapruder frames here and alternate between frame 312 and frame 313. You will see the unique way in which frame 313 blurs: The glares from the limousine get stretched, Connolly turns into a football head, Kellerman's sideburns get pulled back, and the creases in Jackie's clothing become wider. It could be that the forward head movement might be an illusion.

You could make the argument that the Orville Nix film shows Kennedy's head moving forward at frame 23, however this might actually make a better equivalent match for Z314 where Kennedy's head leans significantly to the left. Download Orville Nix frames here: http://hdblenner.com/nixframes.htm

Also, the Zapruder film shows debris being shot in all directions. We know that blood and other matter was blown backwards from other facts from the day, like people in the motorcade being hit with blood.
Click to expand...

Unless you are about to explain how a bullet can suck that massive cloud of ejecta towards your imaginary shooter, what we can see is JFK being blasted back by the pressure of the ejecta. Which means a shot from begin, not the front.
 
HSienzant said:
And there's the name-calling. You copy/pasted references to a patch, but a patch is also, as I pointed out:

PATCH
a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

- Our dog has a black patch on his back.
- The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.
- There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.
- This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.
- The curb has a patch where a bullet apparently struck it.


You are assuming your definition is the one that was meant by the references to the 'patch'.

You are assuming what you need to prove.

Hank
Click to expand...

Well... Perhaps he could show us the patching material in the colour photograph, along with his analysis to show he mark is projecting outwards rather than inwards....
 
MicahJava said:
There was no shot before Z190 because almost no witness said anything that could reasonably be interpreted to that affect.
Click to expand...

Almost no witness? So some did?


MicahJava said:
Anybody who argues a first missed shot before Z190 will notice that Kennedy is obviously smiling and waving at that time.
Click to expand...

That would eliminate a first-shot HIT, but not a first shot MISS.

Wouldn't it?


MicahJava said:
No witness ever said that Kennedy was smiling and waving moments after the first loud shot.
Click to expand...

No witness?


MicahJava said:
There is some photographic evidence for Kennedy reacting to something around Z190. The HSCA photographic panel report detailed it, and more info can be seen in this paper: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weis... Disk/Journal of Forensic Science/Item 01.pdf
Click to expand...

Yes, and that doesn't eliminate a missed shot a couple of seconds before that, that JFK is uncertain was a shot. So, after hearing that shot, he stops waving and assesses the situation. Then he starts to wave again, apparently dismissing that noise as a firecracker, not an assassination attempt. Many witnesses thought the first shot sounded like a firecracker. We will never know if JFK was among them.

Hank
 
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HSienzant said:
I thought you were suggesting a silenced weapon?
Click to expand...

I can not simply deny the 40% of witnesses who heard a loud shot in that area, however I will acknowledge that shooting a loud rifle from near the pergola would be unlikely for a professional to do.

There were steam pipes running along that fence.

Mr. BALL - What did you do then?
Mr. WEITZMAN - I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall.
Mr. BALL - What is the location of that wall?
Mr. WEITZMAN - It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's cater-corner--the section there between the--what do you call it--the monument section?
Mr. BALL - That's where Elm actually dead ends?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands grabbed steampipes. I burned them.
Mr. BALL - Did you go into the railroad yards?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you notice in the railroad yards?
Mr. WEITZMAN - We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going different directions.
Click to expand...

Omg, that crap. The steam pipes were over 100 feet from the area where the witnesses said the smoke was, and such smoke was never seen there again. At least you're not just automatically saying they were mistaken!

You're back to assuming what you must prove.
There have been at least four different possibilities for what causes JFK's head to move backwards:

(a) Neuromuscular reaction.
(b) Jet effect
(c) Chin compressed against chest, rebounds back
(d) Gunshot from right front.

Tell me how you eliminated the first three and decided on the fourth, especially since there's no evidence of damage to the head from a shot from the right-front
Click to expand...

With the neuromuscular reaction, it must be acknowledged that this could not be a final dying spasm because Kennedy did not technically die at the headshot. With the jet-effect, this has not been demonstrated well experimentally, and the physics have been criticized (also, the evidence for a brief forward head movement must be ignored, because the jet-effect should take place at the instant the exit wound is made). The only hypothesis that really interests me is his chin bouncing off of his chest. The backwards head movement must be considered along with other evidence.

What debris? The Zapruder film shows a massive explosion coming out the right front of the head, and debris being blown forward (including what most likely is the Harper fragment, which was found forward of the President's limo at Z313).
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If you download the high-quality Zapruder film frames, the red "mist" is sprayed in all directions. The blood splatter emanating from the head wound is ambiguous. It is also known through other information that debris was sprayed back.

Not sure why you would want to count that... a rifle expels the gasses from the barrel at almost the speed of the bullet.
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What?

Hoffman came forward for the first time on record how many years after the assassination?
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Who knows, he could be lying.

Bowers never said anything about seeing a gunman.
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Some people who knew Bowers told other researchers that Bowers was intimidated into not talking about everything he saw. Even if you don't believe them, Bowers himself said that he knew there was some kind of occurrence in the grassy knoll area (in front or behind the fence).

Nobody -- but NOBODY -- came forward on 11/22/63 and said they saw a gunman on the knoll or anywhere except the TSBD.

And where's the physical evidence of this gunman? Or the Dal-Tex one you conjectured?
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I already linked to physical evidence of additional gunmen, as well as physical evidence that physical evidence of additional gunmen was covered up.
 
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MicahJava said:
Although there were parking spots which could block the view of someone standing at the overpass, I'll say that I won't count on there being anybody shooting from the sewer itself.
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Or hiding in the sewer? Or being behind the fence and shooting?

Where's the HARD, PHYSICAL evidence for a shooter on the knoll?

Any shells seen or found? No.
Any weapon seen or found? No.
Any shooter seen or found? No.
Any damage to the limo or to a passenger seen or found from the right front? No.
Any bullet or bullet fragments recovered traceable to a weapon other than C2766? No.

You have no evidence.


Hank
 
HSienzant said:
Almost no witness? So some did?

That would eliminate a first-shot HIT, but not a first shot MISS.

Wouldn't it?


No witness?

Yes, and that doesn't eliminate a missed shot a couple of seconds before that, that JFK is uncertain was a shot. So, after hearing that shot, he stops waving and assesses the situation. Then he starts to wave again, apparently dismissing that noise as a firecracker, not an assassination attempt. Many witnesses thought the first shot sounded like a firecracker. We will never know if JFK was among them.

Hank
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If you can provide eyewitness evidence of a first missed shot, please do tell. What many use as examples are actually better fitted to describing the Z190-224 shot.
 
HSienzant said:
And there's the name-calling. You copy/pasted references to a patch, but a patch is also, as I pointed out:

PATCH
a small area that is different in some way from the area that surrounds it:

- Our dog has a black patch on his back.
- The hotel walls were covered in damp patches.
- There were lots of icy patches on the road this morning.
- This story is good in patches (= some parts are good), but I wouldn't really recommend it.
- The curb has a patch where a bullet apparently struck it.


You are assuming your definition is the one that was meant by the references to the 'patch'.

You are assuming what you need to prove.

Hank
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Yeah, I think you're just playing games. The chipped area of the curbstone was filled by people who wanted to cover up evidence.
 
MicahJava said:
Yeah, I think you're just playing games. The chipped area of the curbstone was filled by people who wanted to cover up evidence.
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You have no evidence of it being filled. Nor evidence for the motivation of doing so. You can't even explain why the mark is unfilled in the photograph you posted.
 
Tomtomkent said:
You have no evidence of it being filled. Nor evidence for the motivation of doing so. You can't even explain why the mark is unfilled in the photograph you posted.
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The curb mark was proven to be paved over in 1983 by engineer Jose T. Fernandez. I think I'm done here, the people here are just too crazy. I regret wasting my time if something so simple can't be acknowledged.
 
MicahJava said:
Yeah, I think you're just playing games. The chipped area of the curbstone was filled by people who wanted to cover up evidence.
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You keep assuming what you need to prove.

Your argument does not improve with repetition you know.

You still need evidence. Assumptions don't cut it.

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
The curb mark was proven to be paved over in 1983 by engineer Jose T. Fernandez. I think I'm done here, the people here are just too crazy. I regret wasting my time if something so simple can't be acknowledged.
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Post the conclusions of Fernandez and show how that's the only possibility. Even he admitted there were other possibilities.

Hank
 
BStrong said:
Can you cite a proven instance (outside of the St. Valentine's massacre or similar criminal acts) of multiple shooters on a single target?

2nd bolded? all other witnesses to a crime got out of here alive?
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Well, on second thought, maybe the murders thing is real.

Mark Lane was just eliminated a month or so ago, if you recall.

Ruthless, heartless, bastards.

Hank
 
MicahJava said:
The curb mark was proven to be paved over in 1983 by engineer Jose T. Fernandez. I think I'm done here, the people here are just too crazy. I regret wasting my time if something so simple can't be acknowledged.
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As has been pointed out, you keep quoting something that does not prove this, nor can you prove it was to "obscure evidence".

But why does it matter what somebody claimed, you posted a photo of the kerbstone in which the "paving over" (which is an odd term to use when describe the stone being filled, not paved over by more stones) is absent.

It's just "too crazy" to have the obvious pointed out?
 
I can not simply deny the 40% of witnesses who heard a loud shot in that area, however I will acknowledge that shooting a loud rifle from near the pergola would be unlikely for a professional to do.
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Because the event occurred in Dealey Plaza you have to push ear-witness testimony way to the back. The place has an incredible echo, and what people heard depended on where they stood, and sound there changes in a matter of feet in either direction.

You have to work backward from the wounds of the President and Governor, and the physical evidence found in the Depository. The evidence says 3 shots from the 6th floor, with two strikes from that weapon. If there was a second gunman he missed, and the bullet presumably vanished into another dimension.
 
HSienzant said:
Well, on second thought, maybe the murders thing is real.

Mark Lane was just eliminated a month or so ago, if you recall.

Ruthless, heartless, bastards.

Hank
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The CIA Mafia Fidel Castro Soviet Union LBJ Future Farmers of America do their evil-doing in slow, mysterious ways!
 
MicahJava said:
:dl:
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Not responsive to the questions asked.

Here they are again:

Tomtomkent said:
Yeah. Remember when I asked before if you could spot why that might not be conclusive? Look again at the photo. Show me how you conclude it is filled in. Explain why it is still visible. Think about why freshly broken stone or cement darkens over time...

I think you are seeing what you want to see in your photos. I think you may not notice something about the angles of the photos.... And even in a black and white photo, the shade of the mark...


Want to try again?
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