JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

Status
Not open for further replies.
I mean, just imagine if the projectile hit a curved object like a skull, at a tangentile angle because the person was leaning forwards slightly...

A friend of mine survived a AK caliber (7.62 x 39mm) headshot.

He was running downhill and because of the angle the round was fired from and the shape of his skull the round impacted and cut a groove in his skull rather than penetrating.

That was for sure no circular hole.
 
Let's say for a moment that the damage to John Kennedy is consistent with anything Oswald could have done. Can you propose a shooting sequence?

First shot fired around Zapruder frame 160. Misses the vehicle completely, causes the nick in the curb next to James Tague.

Second shot fired at Zapruder frame 223, hits Kennedy in the upper back, exits out of his neck at a downward trajectory and starts to tumble. Hits Connally in the back near the armpit, causing his elliptical entry wound. While tumbling through his body, it impacts his rib sideways causing the round to flatten out at the base. It blasts out of his chest, hits his wrist, then his thigh.

Third shot fired at Zapruder frame 313. Hits Kennedy in the back of the head above and to the right of the EOP. The bullet blasts out the right side of his head and splits, with one large piece impacting the inside of the windshield and another large piece denting the chrome moulding.
 
Did you learn the bolded from "the worlds best snipers?"

The primary difference between a wound caused by a subsonic projectile and a supersonic projectile is depth of penetration, not the shape of the entry/exit wound.

If you have evidence that any small arms projectile "always create circular bullet holes" I'd be very interested in seeing it.

With the circumstances in Dealey Plaza, an entry wound in the head from the Carcano would be circular. There was no tangentile angle sharp enough. In this situation, such an oval entry wound is definitely evidence of subsonic ammunition. Elliptical entry wounds were more commonly seen with old guns in war time. This is why so many people want the red spot on the BOH photos to be the real entry wound.

Just look at the common LN arguments for the oval shape of Connally's back wound, where people like Bugliosi really lay it on thick and say the shape of the wound is "proof" he was hit by a tumbling bullet.
 
Last edited:
First shot fired around Zapruder frame 160. Misses the vehicle completely, causes the nick in the curb next to James Tague.

Okay, let's stop there. I can find very little evidence for a loud shot before 190-224. The film blurs slightly (as it does at other random times), Connally's head turns to the right kind of fast and Rosemary Willis slows down (Phillip Willis said he might've called out to her). I think that's about it, this could all amount to coincidence.

Just count the number of witnesses specifically said Kennedy reacted to the first shot, describing sometimes similar to the 190-224+ reactions, or said the limousine slowed after the first shot. I think a lot of witness statements are being misinterpreted to make this first missed shot exist. There are no witnesses who say that Kennedy was smiling and waving after the first report. James Tague always swore that he perceived being nicked in the cheek at the time of the second or third shot.
 
Last edited:
With the circumstances in Dealey Plaza, an entry wound in the head from the Carcano would be circular. There was no tangentile angle sharp enough. In this situation, such an oval entry wound is definitely evidence of subsonic ammunition. Elliptical entry wounds were more commonly seen with old guns in war time. This is why so many people want the red spot on the BOH photos to be the real entry wound.

Just look at the common LN arguments for the oval shape of Connally's back wound, where people like Bugliosi really lay it on thick and say the shape of the wound is "proof" he was hit by a tumbling bullet.

I'm waiting for some actual evidence to support your assertions.

For folks interested in the subject matter:

http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/evaluation-of-gunshot-wounds/

http://www.archivesofpathology.org/doi/pdf/10.1043/1543-2165(2006)130[1283:PPOGW]2.0.CO;2
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/files/chapter12.pdf

From the above link:

Typical entrance wounds are ordinarily round in shape with a circumferential margin of abrasion surrounding the defect produced by the bullet (Figure 1, A and B).4 The margin of abrasion is a scraping or scuffing of the skin caused by the bullet as it pushes inward. The margin of abrasion may be concentric or eccentric. When a bullet penetrates the skin nose on, it produces a concentric margin of abrasion—that is, a ring of scraped skin of uniform thickness—because it enters perpendicular to the skin. When the nose of a bullet penetrates the skin at an angle, it produces an eccentric margin of abrasion, that is, a ring that is thicker in 1 area. The thick area of an eccentric margin of abrasion indicates the direction from which the bullet came. In addition, the thicker the margin the shallower the angle of the bullet was as it struck the skin

An elliptical entrance wound is typically the result fn the angle of the projectile's penetration, not the velocity of the projectile.
 
With the circumstances in Dealey Plaza, an entry wound in the head from the Carcano would be circular. There was no tangentile angle sharp enough. In this situation, such an oval entry wound is definitely evidence of subsonic ammunition. Elliptical entry wounds were more commonly seen with old guns in war time. This is why so many people want the red spot on the BOH photos to be the real entry wound.

Just look at the common LN arguments for the oval shape of Connally's back wound, where people like Bugliosi really lay it on thick and say the shape of the wound is "proof" he was hit by a tumbling bullet.

And here you go arguing ballistics again.

The 6.5×52mm round was proprietary to the Carcano. The rifling on the recovered bullets show that they were fired from a Carcano. The rifle has a gain twist of 1:8" compared to the M-16A2's 1:7", and the full metal jacket, and 160 grains in the shell load gave Oswald a small canon that fired a round moving at 2,700 fps. Simply put, the Carcano was twice as powerful as it's .306 cousins.

The 6.5×52mm round Oswald used penetrates 4 feet of ponderosa pine and 2 feet of elm wood, and emerge undamaged. (Nichols & Lattimer).

So...

It's going to make a nice ROUND hole on entry, and because the round is over-stabilized they cavitate inside the body like a buzz saw, which is why Kennedy's head exploded. The throat wound gave little resistance to that bullet, but it was still cavitating between JFK and Connally, causing the crazy amount of damage to his body.

This is the part you and every JFK Cter ignore:

In 1963, and even today, there is NOT A LOT OF FORENSIC DATA on the 6.5×52mm round because it is so rare. This means that the FBI and DPD had to start from scratch with this part of the investigation because there was nothing to compare to. This means you can't discuss Kennedy's wounds in general terms because general terms do not apply with the Carcano round.

The 6.5×52mm Carcano round that Oswald used was unique in every way. No other rifle has the capability of replicating the damage seen in Dallas. This is why you can find no conspiracy by looking at the shooting in Dealey Plaza - one rifle, and only one rifle could perform the work done that day.
 
Okay, let's stop there. I can find very little evidence for a loud shot before 190-224. The film blurs slightly (as it does at other random times), Connally's head turns to the right kind of fast and Rosemary Willis slows down (Phillip Willis said he might've called out to her). I think that's about it, this could all amount to coincidence

Connally said the turn to the right at frame 160 was a reaction to hearing gunfire.

Rosemary Willis said she stopped running because she heard gunfire.

Jackie Kennedy looks sharply at her husband around this time as well.

Other witnesses said the first shot was a miss too.
 
I'm waiting for some actual evidence to support your assertions.

For folks interested in the subject matter:

http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/evaluation-of-gunshot-wounds/

http://www.archivesofpathology.org/doi/pdf/10.1043/1543-2165(2006)130[1283:PPOGW]2.0.CO;2
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/files/chapter12.pdf

From the above link:

Typical entrance wounds are ordinarily round in shape with a circumferential margin of abrasion surrounding the defect produced by the bullet (Figure 1, A and B).4 The margin of abrasion is a scraping or scuffing of the skin caused by the bullet as it pushes inward. The margin of abrasion may be concentric or eccentric. When a bullet penetrates the skin nose on, it produces a concentric margin of abrasion—that is, a ring of scraped skin of uniform thickness—because it enters perpendicular to the skin. When the nose of a bullet penetrates the skin at an angle, it produces an eccentric margin of abrasion, that is, a ring that is thicker in 1 area. The thick area of an eccentric margin of abrasion indicates the direction from which the bullet came. In addition, the thicker the margin the shallower the angle of the bullet was as it struck the skin

An elliptical entrance wound is typically the result fn the angle of the projectile's penetration, not the velocity of the projectile.

Instability and yawing of bullets can cause elliptical holes. I think the people here would have an easier time arguing that a missed shot after Z313 bounced off the pavement and managed to hit Kennedy low in the head while he was slumped over.

15x6mm is extremely oval.
 
Last edited:
Connally said the turn to the right at frame 160 was a reaction to hearing gunfire.

We've talked about Connally before. He marked on a map when he thought the shooting started, at about the z220's. He viewed the Z film and felt that the first loud shot he heard was at ~z190, and he was hit at ~231.

Rosemary Willis said she stopped running because she heard gunfire.

She was ten years old. She said this 16 years after the fact, at age 26.

She said she may have stopped when she heard gunfire.

She might have felt inclined to give an interesting answer to the magazine journalist who was interviewing her.

Phillip Willis told Gerald Posner that her reactions may have been from him calling out to her.

Alternatively, while she does stop running around the z170's, her subsequent rapid head turn could be interpreted as something consistent with a shot at ~190.

Jackie Kennedy looks sharply at her husband around this time as well.

Her head turns to the right slightly after the ~z160's, but only after z190 does her head turn right very fast.

Other witnesses said the first shot was a miss too.

Like who? We've talked about Woodward, who said she thought the first shot missed but is still obviously describing the first report as occurring at z190-224.
 
Last edited:
Have anything you can point to or specific points to argue or is it just "these experts say different"? My experts actually saw and handled the body, and at least four of them specifically said that the cowlick red spot is not the small head wound.

And my experts actually used the x-rays of Kennedy's skull to reach their conclusions.
 
And here you go arguing ballistics again.

The 6.5×52mm round was proprietary to the Carcano. The rifling on the recovered bullets show that they were fired from a Carcano. The rifle has a gain twist of 1:8" compared to the M-16A2's 1:7", and the full metal jacket, and 160 grains in the shell load gave Oswald a small canon that fired a round moving at 2,700 fps. Simply put, the Carcano was twice as powerful as it's .306 cousins.

The 6.5×52mm round Oswald used penetrates 4 feet of ponderosa pine and 2 feet of elm wood, and emerge undamaged. (Nichols & Lattimer).

So...

It's going to make a nice ROUND hole on entry, and because the round is over-stabilized they cavitate inside the body like a buzz saw, which is why Kennedy's head exploded. The throat wound gave little resistance to that bullet, but it was still cavitating between JFK and Connally, causing the crazy amount of damage to his body.

This is the part you and every JFK Cter ignore:

In 1963, and even today, there is NOT A LOT OF FORENSIC DATA on the 6.5×52mm round because it is so rare. This means that the FBI and DPD had to start from scratch with this part of the investigation because there was nothing to compare to. This means you can't discuss Kennedy's wounds in general terms because general terms do not apply with the Carcano round.

The 6.5×52mm Carcano round that Oswald used was unique in every way. No other rifle has the capability of replicating the damage seen in Dallas. This is why you can find no conspiracy by looking at the shooting in Dealey Plaza - one rifle, and only one rifle could perform the work done that day.

One of the more entertaining fictional JFK assassination stories (The Third Bullet by Stephen Hunter) is the premise that there was a second shooter using a custom rifle in .264 Winchester Magnum chambering but using the Carcano bore diameter and rifling to confuse the issue.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/8/book-review-the-third-bullet/

In 1963 the various 6.5 mm cartridges (including the slightly larger bore diameter .264 WinMag) weren't very popular in the U.S., but in Sweden they had adopted their 6.5 mm Mauser (6.5 x 55 mm) at the turn of the century and had enough faith in it that they maintained that caliber as their service rifle until they adopted the HK G3 in 7.62 NATO.

Having fired the 6.5 x 55mm through their Mauser service rifles and the AG42, the semi-auto rifle they adopted in that caliber, I've come to the conclusion that the 6.5 has a definite advantage over the 7.62 NATO.
 
Instability and yawing of bullets can cause elliptical holes. I think the people here would have an easier time arguing that a missed shot after Z313 bounced off the pavement and managed to hit Kennedy low in the head while he was slumped over.

15x6mm is extremely oval.

Evidence? or is the information being held hostage by "the world's best snipers?"

A stabilized projectile entering a skull at an angle can cause a larger entry than exit wound (you did read the information at my links above?) or a projectile in the right circumstances can glance off of a skull without penetrating (see above also.)

If you're attempting to suggest that an unstabilized projectile hit JFK you're going to need to explain why.

Nice strawman, no go,
 
Evidence? or is the information being held hostage by "the world's best snipers?"

A stabilized projectile entering a skull at an angle can cause a larger entry than exit wound (you did read the information at my links above?) or a projectile in the right circumstances can glance off of a skull without penetrating (see above also.)

If you're attempting to suggest that an unstabilized projectile hit JFK you're going to need to explain why.

Nice strawman, no go,

There was no sharp angle to explain such an oval wound. The back of his head was facing the direction of the depository at z312. It was practically asking for it.
 
There is no evidence of metal fragments on the outside of the fracture some people think is an entry wound.

Nice try, but you will not succeed in fooling me! The fracture was not the entry wound, it was 1 cm above the actual entry wound, as described by Dr. McDonnel.
 
There was no sharp angle to explain such an oval wound.The back of his head was facing the direction of the depository at z312. It was practically asking for it.

Could you science that assertion up for us?

IIRC the head shot angle swag is m/l 17 degrees, and if you read up a bit on headwound forensics you may find that headshots demonstrate all manner of counter-intuitive evidence, such as entry wounds being larger than exit wounds.

Still waiting for you to post some links to supporting evidence for your assertions.

Are "the best snipers in the world" on strike?
 
What's the point of even arguing further?

Most conspiracy theorists don't concede. They just go away when they can't win the debate.


HSienzant is here trying to say that Stringer's recollection and retraction of an exit wound in the back of the head somehow benefits the official story.

False! That's a Straw Man argument. I'm saying his telling multiple different stories doesn't benefit your attempt to utilize one of his recollections as something of value and avoid the other [earlier] recollection. Rather, it calls into question the value of using eyewitness recollections from nine or 30 years after the fact at all. Somehow you want to believe (and want us to believe) the 30-year after the fact recollection instead of the nine-year after the fact recollection or instead of the hard evidence like the x-rays and autopsy photos and the expert conclusions. All this was point out previously. All of it was ignored by you.


Axxman300 for some reason thinks that the Belmont memo was made before Air Force One landed.

Remember as well it's only hearsay. Belmont was NOT at the autopsy.

And when do you think it was written? As I pointed out, it's dated 11/22/63 and the autopsy didn't conclude - according to the pathologists - until about midnight. That means it was either conveyed to Belmont during the autopsy by a phone call from Sibert or O'Neill or it happened before the autopsy. What's the evidence indicate? And why should we believe a hearsay report?


Gah! Forget about it! What's the point of even going further than page 1 of the official autopsy report? The location and shape of the small head wound is certainly a giant problem with the official story.

Why? Wouldn't a bullet entering at an angle make an ellipitical wound? Isn't that also exactly what we see with the shoulder wound? It's longer than wide?


The very elliptical shape of the wound (about 3x1) is what you would get from subsonic ammunition, not 6.5 Carcano rounds which always create circular bullet holes.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Provide the facts for this statement, especially considering you're apparently not taking into account the bullet entered at an angle.



The lack of major brain damage acknowledged in that area,

Huh? The entire right hemisphere was disrupted, and much of it was gone. GONE. You've seen the IDA DOX drawing.


and the ridiculous deflection required is also a simple indicator that Kennedy was shot in the head more than once.

What ridiculous deflection? And how come NO qualified pathologist who ever looked at the body or the extant autopsy materials ever concluded there was two shots to the head? Not one expert agrees with you. That's a curious finding, don't you think?


[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/dpo8Wjl.png[/qimg]

Whoever is still stretching out the argument that a blemish on the scalp and a small fracture on an x-ray represents the true entry wound is starting to resemble Meatwad from Aqua Teen Hunger Force only being able to transform into the shape of a hot dog or an igloo.

I guess you're now putting your knowledge and what you can glean from internet copies ahead of that of the qualified experts who viewed the first generation autopsy materials. I think that's a mistake.

Note the above image describes the shoulder wound as 7x4 and the head wound as 15x6. Elliptical in both cases, right?

Why do you suppose that was, if it always makes a circular wound?

Hank
 
Last edited:
With the circumstances in Dealey Plaza, an entry wound in the head from the Carcano would be circular. There was no tangentile angle sharp enough.

Is this the word according to MicahJava, or is this the word according to some recognized authorities in the field of ballistics?


In this situation, such an oval entry wound is definitely evidence of subsonic ammunition.

Says who? You?


Elliptical entry wounds were more commonly seen with old guns in war time.

Says who? You? Please cite your recognized authorities on this subject.


This is why so many people want the red spot on the BOH photos to be the real entry wound.

It's not a matter of what we want it to be. It's a matter of what the evidence indicates. And what the experts say about that evidence. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I follow the evidence and the recognized expert opinion. I don't put much value in some anonymous internet poster's opinion.


Just look at the common LN arguments for the oval shape of Connally's back wound, where people like Bugliosi really lay it on thick and say the shape of the wound is "proof" he was hit by a tumbling bullet.

Can a tumbling bullet cause an ellipitical wound? Most certainly. Did the doctor who treated Connally describe it as ellipitical? Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on the posterior side of the Governor's chest?
Dr. SHAW - This was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. It was roughly elliptical. It was just medial to the axilliary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade.
Mr. SPECTER - What were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to you that it was a wound of entrance then?
Dr. SHAW - Its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit.


Now, should we rely on your judgments or those of the experts?

Hank
 
Okay, let's stop there. I can find very little evidence for a loud shot before 190-224. The film blurs slightly (as it does at other random times), Connally's head turns to the right kind of fast and Rosemary Willis slows down (Phillip Willis said he might've called out to her). I think that's about it, this could all amount to coincidence.

Just count the number of witnesses specifically said Kennedy reacted to the first shot, describing sometimes similar to the 190-224+ reactions, or said the limousine slowed after the first shot. I think a lot of witness statements are being misinterpreted to make this first missed shot exist. There are no witnesses who say that Kennedy was smiling and waving after the first report. James Tague always swore that he perceived being nicked in the cheek at the time of the second or third shot.

Please review the discussion with Robert Harris in the beginning of this thread and prior to that, the end of the prior thread.

I have no great reason to go through it all again for your convenience.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Hank
 
Last edited:
We've talked about Connally before. He marked on a map when he thought the shooting started, at about the z220's. He viewed the Z film and felt that the first loud shot he heard was at ~z190, and he was hit at ~231.

And he was wrong about the 231-234 [not 231] range as the time he was hit, wasn't he?

Why couldn't he be wrong about other aspects of the assassination?

Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides?
Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket.
Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then.
Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was----
Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.


Or are victims of gunfire always the best witnesses to the sequence of shots?

Hank
 
Have anything you can point to or specific points to argue or is it just "these experts say different"? My experts actually saw and handled the body, and at least four of them specifically said that the cowlick red spot is not the small head wound.

One of them actually gave an earlier account that was totally different.

Another gave a later account that was totally different.

I'm not certain why you think the recollections you choose are more valuable to resolving the issue than the ones you ignore.

I'm not certain why you think three-decade after the fact recollections have any value whatsoever, in fact.

Hank
 
There was no sharp angle to explain such an oval wound. The back of his head was facing the direction of the depository at z312. It was practically asking for it.

The head was tilted down and canted to the left of the centerline of the limo by 17 degrees. The limo at Z312 was moving almost directly away from the TSBD. The back of the head was not facing the TSBD at Z312.

Hank
 
Instability and yawing of bullets can cause elliptical holes. I think the people here would have an easier time arguing that a missed shot after Z313 bounced off the pavement and managed to hit Kennedy low in the head while he was slumped over.

15x6mm is extremely oval.

Not a single thing you just wrote is accurate.

The Carcano round is accurate and lethal up to 1,000 meters. That gain twist I told you about? It means it's stable and true until it strikes the target. You do not have enough data to say what a Carcano entrance wound should look like in the first place.
 
The limo was swerved to the left and Kennedy was slumped to the left. 17 degrees doesn't explain an entry wound that's a 3:1 ratio shape.

It's kind of interesting watching you all rush to debunk what was once one of the most popular arguments for the SBT.
 
And he was wrong about the 231-234 [not 231] range as the time he was hit, wasn't he?

Why couldn't he be wrong about other aspects of the assassination?

Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides?
Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket.
Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then.
Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was----
Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.


Or are victims of gunfire always the best witnesses to the sequence of shots?

Hank

What on earth is the matter? Frame 231 is pretty close to the lapel flap at frame 224.
 
What on earth is the matter? Frame 231 is pretty close to the lapel flap at frame 224.

Frames 231-234 is what the Governor picked. Not 231. Your proposition is framed incorrectly.

And once again you didn't respond to my points:

And he was wrong about the 231-234 [not 231] range as the time he was hit, wasn't he?

Why couldn't he be wrong about other aspects of the assassination?

Or are victims of gunfire always the best witnesses to the sequence of shots?


Hank
 
The limo was swerved to the left

Not at Z312 it wasn't.

It was moving almost directly away from the TSBD.

https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/DPschematic.html

In fact, the TSBD was to the right-rear of the limo, not the left rear. Your "swerved to the left" would put the shooter to the left-rear, but that is incorrect.

Here's a view from the sniper's nest window, through the scope of the rifle found on the sixth floor, showing what the assassin would have seen at Z313.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0066b.htm


...and Kennedy was slumped to the left. 17 degrees doesn't explain an entry wound that's a 3:1 ratio shape.

And his head was tilted forward. And the wound measurements are 15x6 which is a ratio of 2.5 to 1, not 3 to 1. You constantly misstate things like the range Connally thought the shot that struck him was in (you claimed 231, he actually said 231-234), and now this ratio.


...It's kind of interesting watching you all rush to debunk what was once one of the most popular arguments for the SBT.

I'm pretty comfortable saying the position of the limo at Z312 and the cant of the head relative to the midline of the limo at Z312 has nothing to do with what you call the single bullet theory. In fact, I have no idea what you're talking about, nor why you're bringing up the SBT, unless it's just an weak attempt to change the subject.

Hank
 
Last edited:
The limo was swerved to the left and Kennedy was slumped to the left. 17 degrees doesn't explain an entry wound that's a 3:1 ratio shape.

It's kind of interesting watching you all rush to debunk what was once one of the most popular arguments for the SBT.

It's even more interesting watching you make assertions w/o a shred of evidence, such as the bolded above.

On sectional density.

A longer heavier projectile retains energy better downrange and penetrates better as well.

The Swedes competed in international competition w/ their 6.5 x 55 for decades with good results, and there's a whole new class of long range wildcat cartridges using the 6.5 projo - my previous (non-.50 BMG cartridge) long range rig is a .378 mag necked down to .30, but I'll be rebarreling it in 6.5 - I haven't yet decided if I'll stick with the .378 case.
 
We've talked about Connally before. He marked on a map when he thought the shooting started, at about the z220's. He viewed the Z film and felt that the first loud shot he heard was at ~z190, and he was hit at ~231.

Connally said his reaction to the first shot he heard was to turn to his right to locate the source.

At what point in the Z film does he first turn to the right?
 
I can find very little evidence for a loud shot before 190-224.
We've talked about Connally before.

And you ignored my points here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11510558#post11510558

Oh, you tried to answer it here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11510567#post11510567

But you avoided entirely the Governor's estimate of ten to twelve seconds for the entire shooting sequence. As I asked originally, if the Governor's time estimate is accurate, that puts the first shot at Z135 or prior. Do you think there was a shot that early, or do you agree the Governor was mistaken in some of his testimony about the shooting sequence?

And if he was mistaken in some, how are you deciding where he was right and where he was wrong? Is it simply a matter of picking out those bits that agree with your scenario, or is there some real basis to it you can define?

Hank
 
Last edited:
Instability and yawing of bullets can cause elliptical holes. I think the people here would have an easier time arguing that a missed shot after Z313 bounced off the pavement and managed to hit Kennedy low in the head while he was slumped over.

15x6mm is extremely oval.

Why was the projectile not stabilized?
 
I'm back. Found more interesting information on a relatively whitewashed part of the wounding of JFK.

Dr. Pierre Finck has been denying the government-approved location of the small head wound since he testified at the trial of Clay Shaw in 1969.

See here: http://www.jfk-online.com/finckshaw.html

According to a 1978 HSCA report on an interview with Francis X. O'Neill, "O'Neill said that the autopsy doctors felt that the bullet that entered the head struck the center, low portion of the head and exited from the top, right side, towards the front."

He also drew this diagram: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md86/html/md86_0011a.htm

Again, nobody who describes who small head wound places it above the level of the ears.

We've already discussed the damage to the right cerebellum, but here's more information on the damage to the brainstem from Dr. Pierre Finck, as addressed in a 1969 letter to his attorney, in whih he suggests that the back-and-to-the-left movement was "due to the severance of his brain from his spinal cord as described in the autopsy report, he experienced decerebrate rigidity due to loss of cerebral control." (source)

Actual non-incised severance of the spinal cord is not described in the autopsy report, just some vague damage. Humes said there was only damage, but apparently it might've been severed completely. Who knows.

An under-reported fact about the damage to JFK is that the base of his skull had quite a bit of damage, as consistent with a bullet entering the EOP, and going on to damage the right cerebellum and the brainstem.

Mortician Tom Robinson to the HSCA in 1977:

Robinson: "The inside of the scull was badly smashed, it could have well been a piece of bone that passed through there or..."

Conzelman: "Were the facial bones smashed too?"

Robinson: "Behind, yes, that bullet must have hit him, one of those bullets hit him terribly, it hit him just right."

Also, here is a reference to the small head wound being probed:

Purdy: "Were there any wounds in the neck, the back.?"

Robinson: "Now this is where I'm hazy. I can remember the probe. The probe of all this whole area. It was about an 18 piece of metal that we used."

Purdy: "Do you feel they probed the head or they probed the neck?"

Robinson: "It was at the base of the head where most of the damage was done, the things that we had to worry about. So it all runs together in my mind."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md63.pdf

According to Doug Horne, Tom Robinson told the ARRB in 1996 "there were fractures all over the cranium, including the floor of the skull"

According to HSCA radiologist Dr. David Davis, "There is some air in the subarachnoid space of the spinal canal, and also apparently in temporal lobe sulci in the middle fossa, presumably on the right side, but since the fracture is open to the subarachnoid space, this is not at all surprising.", which is consistent with skull base trauma and dural tear.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/pdf/HSCA_Vol1_0907_5_Baden.pdf

In Dr. James Humes' 1996 ARRB Testimony, we read:

Q. "Was there any other examination that you made of the cranium at that time?"

A. "Well, we looked with care at the whole interior surface of the skull to see if there were any other defects or what have you. There were no others. Of course, the one that was hard to evaluate, of course, was the exit, because it was all disrupted."

Q. "Were there any fragments or breaks in the left hemisphere of the cranium, looking from the inside?"

A. "I can't recall how far over some of these fractures--whether they crossed the midline or not. I really can't recall."

Q. "When you finished--or did you return to examine the cranium at any subsequent point during the autopsy?"

A. "No."

However, we go on to read....

Q. "Okay. If we go down to the bottom of the skull, there are numbers written at the bottom, a 4, a 3, over a 6. Do you see those?"

A. "Yeah."

Q. "Do you know what those signify?"

A. "No."

Q. "Were there any injuries or fractures in that portion of the skull?"

A. "Well, yeah, I guess. Yes. Because the wound was below there, you see. You're looking at it from above, and the wound, the entrance wound you wouldn't see on a view from the top. But there were fractures in the posterior cranial fossa radiating from the wound."

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/humesa.htm

Going back to Tom Robinson's 1977 HSCA interview, here is an an example of someone who saw the body suggesting that a bullet entered low in Kennedy's head and exited the throat.

Purdy: "Was it your understanding that that was just a tracheotomy , or was there some other cause that may have made it ragged or something else?

Robinson: "There is something about the bullet exiting from there. A bullet exiting from there. I don't know whether I heard the physicians talking about it or whether I read it now."

Purdy: "Was it your impression at the time or now thinking about it as to, if you assume a bullet or part of a bullet exited there, or something exited there. Where did that something come from? Where would it have entered from the other side? From the your examination of the body, where could it have come from?"

Robinson: "You mean you're looking for another hole?"

Purdy: "Another hole or some other place, either coming from the head down and out or from the back."

Robinson: "It might have been coming from the head and down. These are all in straight lines here forming down like that."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md63.pdf

Are there are other references to the autopsy doctors thinking a bullet entered low in the head and exited the throat?

Richard Lipsey's 1978 HSCA interview makes numerous references to the large head wound as basically a tangential wound, the small head wound as an entrence low in the head and perhaps exiting the throat, and the back wound as not exiting the body. Possible references to a whole bullet and/or fragments discovered within the body, and Lipsey says the autopsy participants were concerned about the wereabouts of "a third bullet". Lipsey says that the autopsy participants discussed the possibility of a bullet hitting "the back of his head" and deflected "off his chest cavity". He said "I don't think they found the third bullet"... "I don't know whether whey found bullets or whether they found just particles of bullets"... "I don't think they found any whole bullets... that is just speculation on my part".. "It didn't have an exit mark". Lipsey also says that the doctors were aware that the sniper's bullets came from above, and that they discussed that "all three bullets came from the same place".

He later said "the bullet that entered the lower part of the head or the lower part of the neck... to the best of my knowledge, came out the front of the neck. But the one that I remember they spent so much time on... obviously was the one that did not come out". When asked "Was it that you observed, maybe feel that the bullet that entered the rear portion of the head, exited in the throat area?... Was there markings there that indicated, doctors that came to that conclusion?", he replied "I saw, you know, where they were working, and also listening to their conclusions... "it never seemed to be any doubt in their mind that bullets were coming from different directions, at all... they kept talking about the angle of the bullets, because the angles that they entered the body... I remember measuring, doing doing all kinds of things, they turned the body up at one point to determine where that bullet that entered the back here, that didn't have an exit mark, where was that bullet. When it got down to where they thought it hit his chest cavity, then they started, you know, opened him up, started looking in here".

He said that later, as rigor mortis had set in the body and one of the arms was raising slightly, one of the autopsy participants physically lowered the arm with his knee. He says that the autopsy participants did not discuss the throat wound as a tracheotomy, and that they were convinced that a bullet entered low in the back of the head and exited the throat. He recalls being astonished by the public information that only two bullets struck Kennedy, because the autopsy doctors were convinced that he was struck by three bullets.

Face chart diagram marked by Lipsey: https://i.imgur.com/1UXF8ji.gif

HSCA interview transcript 1/18/1978: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm

HSCA report on Lipsey interview: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md87/html/md87_0001a.htm

audio of 1978 HSCA Lipsey interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIM7Tj2s4Hg

Either Richard Lipsey is an incredibly confused witness who barely payed attention to what was going on, or he just exposed a darker, hidden side of the autopsy.

In a ARRB 1996 interview summary for Tom Robinson, it states:

-Use of Probes: Robinson had vivid recollections of a very long, malleable probe being used during the autopsy. His most vivid recollection of the probe is seeing it inserted near the base of the brain in the back of the head (after removal of the brain), and seeing the tip of the probe come out of the tracheotomy incision in the anterior neck. He was adamant about this recollection. He also recalls seeing the wound high in the back probed unsuccessfully, meaning that the probe did not exit anywhere. When asked, Robinson said he could not recall anything about the angle at which the probe went into the back wound (i.e., whether it was steep of shallow).

http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md180/html/md180_0004a.htm

In an early report by Parkland Doctor Robert McClelland, it states In an early report by Parkland Doctor Robert McClelland:

"The President was at the time comatose from a massive gunshot wound of the head with a fragment wound of the trachea."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/app8.htm

As early as 11/13/1963, the Boston Globe reported that

"The rather meager medical details attributed to Dr. Malcolm Perry, the attending surgeon, described the bullet as entering just below the Adam's Apple and leaving by the back of the head. Since that statement Friday afternoon it is believed from determining the site of the firing that the bullet entered the back of the head first and came out just under the Adam's Apple."

The article was accompanied by this diagram:

https://i.imgur.com/7FEcdbi.jpg

It is fair to say that a bullet entering low in the head and exiting from the throat is a very legitimate possibility.

As pointed out by the doctors, and is apparent on color autopsy photographs, there were distinct bruises on the right neck-shoulder area. This can be mistaken for dried blood. This could be an indicator of some heavy activity going down the neck from a bullet that entered low in the head.

Here are more indicators of some kind of a track between the throat wound and head wound:

In the June 1967 issue of Ramparts magazine, William W. Turner claims that "a nurse at Parkland Hospital said that when doctors attempted a tracheotomy on the President, the damage was so great the tube pushed out the back of his head".

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/R Disk/Ramparts/Item 09.pdf

From Speer's book, we find another possible reference to this:

There is still another sign, recently uncovered, and not fully documented, that suggests the bullet came down the neck. In November 2008, Christine Jenkins, the daughter of Parkland Hospital anesthesiologist Dr. Marion Jenkins, who stood at the head of Kennedy's stretcher throughout his treatment on 11-22-63, performed a one-woman show on the assassination. At the centerpiece of her show was a videotape of her father discussing Kennedy's death in Emergency Room One. According to one witness to her show, Jack White, Jenkins claimed on this tape that "Each time he squeezed on his air bag, bubbles of blood came out the brain wound." The air tube was, of course, put into the hole in Kennedy's throat. It is impossible to understand how air would bubble out from Kennedy's cranium unless there was a passageway between Kennedy's neck and skull base. If Jenkins mentioned these bubbles to his fellow doctors, moreover, it goes a long way towards explaining why they were so ready to believe the neck wound was connected to the head wound on 11-22.

In retrospect, however, it seems possible Jack White was mistaken. Jack was 81 at the time. Jenkins had told the Warren Commission "As the resuscitative maneuvers were begun, such as 'chest cardiac massage,' there was with each compression of the sternum, a gush of blood from the skull wound, which indicated there was massive vascular damage in the skull and the brain, as well as brain tissue damage." It seems pssoible, then, that Jack misunderstood Jenkins, and thought the bubbles of blood from the brain wound were related to the air tube, and not the chest massage performed by Dr. Perry.

Not that that matters much. If one assumes Jenkins' testimony was correct, as opposed to his latter day recollections as reported by White, and that the blood started bubbling from the brain during cardiac massage, as opposed to when Jenkins used the air bag, one can still take this occurrence as suggestive a bullet traveled down the neck.

John Lattimer's 1980 book Kennedy and Lincoln says "As soon as neurosurgeon Dr. William Kemp Clark had established that the right half of President Kennedy's brain had been shot away, that the blood which was being pumped into the veins of the body was being poured out onto the floor through the torn-open ends of the large blood vessels in the base of his skull, and that there was absolutely no hope of survival, he pronounced the President dead."

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter17:newerviewsonthesamescene


Here are more references to there being two shots to the head:

Here is a 1967 Oral History Interview with Dr. George Burkley:

McHUGH: "I see. Do your conclusions differ at all with the Warren report of the circumstances or cause of death?"

BURKLEY: "My conclusion in regard to the cause of death was the bullet wound which involved the skull. The discussion as to whether a previous bullet also enters into it, but as far as the cause of death the immediate cause was unquestionably the bullet which shattered the brain and the calvariurm."

McHUGH: "I see. The brain and the what?"

BURKLEY: "And the skull, calvarium."

MCHUGH: "I see. Do you agree with the Warren Report on the number of bullets that entered the President's body?"

BURKLEY: "I would not care to be quoted on that."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burkley.htm

According to a 1977 HSCA report, Dr. Burkley said "the doctors didn't section the brain and if it had been done, it might be able to prove whether or not there were two bullets. Dr. Burkley thinks there was one but concedes of the possibility of there having been two..."

(source)

HSCA even wrote an affidavit to the HSCA along with his statement, stating:

"Had the Warren Commission deemed to call me, I would have stated why I retained the brain and the possibility of two bullets having wounded President John F. Kennedy's brain would have been eliminated."

http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/Autopsy/BURKLEY.TXT

I wonder what Burkley could mean by "he thinks there was one bullet", yet there are researchers who have gotten a firm answer from Burkey that he thought Oswald couldn't have possibly done the damage he examined on Kennedy.

I've also heard that some single-bullet theorists have claimed that this X-ray is evidence of a track from the back to the throat, in the form of that black line between the throat and the back.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Autopsy_photos/X_AUT_9.JPG

Since the autopsy photograph shows the back wound at T1, anatomically lower than the throat wound, then isn't the dark line more suggestive of an exit track from high in the neck/low in the head?

The people who examined Kennedy's clothing said that the damage hole on his tie could not be better ascribed to a whole bullet exiting downwards, and suggesting something more like a fragment of something. Possibly even bone, as there apparently aren't any traces of metal on the tie.

Also, I do that that Connally's personal physician stated that he would be more likely to ascribe the damage to John as coming from a fragment.

After establishing the small wound low in Kennedy's head, I think it may very well be that a bullet entered the EOP, causing a fragment to deflect out of the throat, and perhaps passed through Connally.
 
Last edited:
And you ignored my points here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11510558#post11510558

Oh, you tried to answer it here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11510567#post11510567

But you avoided entirely the Governor's estimate of ten to twelve seconds for the entire shooting sequence. As I asked originally, if the Governor's time estimate is accurate, that puts the first shot at Z135 or prior. Do you think there was a shot that early, or do you agree the Governor was mistaken in some of his testimony about the shooting sequence?

And if he was mistaken in some, how are you deciding where he was right and where he was wrong? Is it simply a matter of picking out those bits that agree with your scenario, or is there some real basis to it you can define?

Hank

The lack of any shot before Z190-2222 is a major issue, because it concerns a lot of crucial issues. First, Oswald's rifle wasn't sighted-in, so it would probably be impossible to hit with the first shot. Second, Most witnesses say that the lack two shots were close together. Third, Connally always swore he was hit shortly after the first loud report.

Connally marked on the Zapruder film where he thought he was hit. It was frame 231. He does indeed show signs in the film that he is reacting to something after the 224-230 reactions after the lapel flap, as if he has just realized what has happened. His early statements have also consistently said that he was hit very shortly after Kennedy.
 
Connally marked on the Zapruder film where he thought he was hit. It was frame 231. He does indeed show signs in the film that he is reacting to something after the 224-230 reactions after the lapel flap, as if he has just realized what has happened.

He also insisted that he was hit with the second shot, and that the entire shooting sequence took 10 to 12 seconds for all 3 shots.

That puts the first shot roughly 5 seconds before Z224.

So, which parts of Connally's testimony are you accepting and which are you discarding?


His early statements have also consistently said that he was hit very shortly after Kennedy.

How does Connally know when Kennedy was hit?
 
He also insisted that he was hit with the second shot, and that the entire shooting sequence took 10 to 12 seconds for all 3 shots.

That puts the first shot roughly 5 seconds before Z224.

So, which parts of Connally's testimony are you accepting and which are you discarding?




How does Connally know when Kennedy was hit?

There is a difference between being hit and being hit while hearing the shot that hit you. The "right turn" he was talking about is probably the 224-230+ reactions. Just look at all of the other witnesses who saw the Limo and reported seeing basically the same thing, always describing the first shot at around 190-224.

I have also talked about the possibility of a subsonic bullet entering low in Kennedy's head, causing a fragment to strongly deflect within the body and exit out of the throat and go on to pass through Connally. Subsonic, of course, meaning that some effort to suppress the noise was probably used. Connolly mentioned several times that he didn't hear the shot that hit him.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom