JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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Why? Does it seem unbelievable to you that they would show incorrect diagrams of the bullet entering the neck and descending downwards? Well, that's the world we live in.

If you actually went to Dallas, the next step is to get out to a firing range which rents weapons, and take some lessons, and get some trigger-time with a bolt action rifle.

You will learn that every bullet has a life of its own, and each bullet will do its own thing upon striking a fleshy or soft target. Talk to other shooters, especially ones with combat or police experience, and LISTEN to their crazy bullet stories. You will here about .556 rounds being deflected by leaves in Vietnam, you will hear about bullets flying far beyond their range, and ricochets wounding multiple people.

A personal friend was wounded in Vietnam by an NVA AK-47, .762 round which entered between his middle, and fourth finger, and traveled up his arm, through his bicep, and lodged in his shoulder. In turn, his 3-round burst struck the NVA soldier in the face tearing off the top if his head above the lower jaw.

Bullets are like bears; just when you're certain something is impossible for them to do - one goes out and does it.
 
Just peeking my head in to say something quick until later.

Today I went to Dallas and saw the Sixth floor museum, the grassy knoll, etc.

I am appealed at the museum's display of the discredited Warren Commission diagrams depicting a trajectory with a bullet entering the neck and going anatomically downwards to exit the throat, as well as some plaques referring to the back wound as a "neck wound". They could've at least shown the HSCA sketch reproduction of the autopsy back wound photo. I can't help but wonder if they kept it that way to keep newcomers from wondering if such a trajectory was possible (anatomically upwards through the body) at the sharp angle of the sixth floor without Kennedy being hunched over in a way not seen on any pictures.

How fast did you walk from Oswald's roominghouse to Tenth and Patton?

Back in the early 1990's, I did it in 11:15 at a fast walking pace.

What was your time?

Hank
 
Or selling some conspiracy literature. Groden used to set up a table in Dealey Plaza. Don't know if he's still doing that.

Hank

I saw Groden there, at a little table on the pergola. I was a little disappointed that he was presenting a fake (photoshopped?) photograph of a gaping wound in the back of Kennedy's head alongside the genuine official autopsy photos, which may confuse the average newcomer. I said hi, shook his hand, and said thanks for leaking the autopsy photos.

I did not do the Oswald roominghouse- 10th & Patton walk.
 
If you actually went to Dallas, the next step is to get out to a firing range which rents weapons, and take some lessons, and get some trigger-time with a bolt action rifle.

You will learn that every bullet has a life of its own, and each bullet will do its own thing upon striking a fleshy or soft target. Talk to other shooters, especially ones with combat or police experience, and LISTEN to their crazy bullet stories. You will here about .556 rounds being deflected by leaves in Vietnam, you will hear about bullets flying far beyond their range, and ricochets wounding multiple people.

A personal friend was wounded in Vietnam by an NVA AK-47, .762 round which entered between his middle, and fourth finger, and traveled up his arm, through his bicep, and lodged in his shoulder. In turn, his 3-round burst struck the NVA soldier in the face tearing off the top if his head above the lower jaw.

Bullets are like bears; just when you're certain something is impossible for them to do - one goes out and does it.

How on earth does this relate to JFK?
 
Why should a museum be expected to give any sort of nod much less credence to the fertile imaginings of the ill informed?

Regnad Kcin, are you aware that the official story, for people who know that the autopsy photo shows the back wound at T1, is that the bullet traveled slightly upwards through the body as Kennedy was hunched over to some degree? What do you think newcomers will think of that when they remember the Sixth Floor Museum tried to teach them the bullet entered the neck and descended?
 
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Why? Does it seem unbelievable to you that they would show incorrect diagrams of the bullet entering the neck and descending downwards? Well, that's the world we live in.

And there you have it. When asked for evidence, you instead appeal to the bare possibility of your claim.

Well, here goes: does it seem unbelievable to you that LHO could have killed the president on his own? Nope, entirely possible, ergo true. Check mate.
 
Here are more references to body being probed during the autopsy, with tools meant for the purpose, not just digital probing with fingers.

1. According to this 1967 CBS memo from Bob Richter, Dr. Humes was a personal friend of CBS producer Jim Snyder, and Humes claimed that he X-rayed a probe that ran from Kennedy's back wound to his throat wound.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=597

2. According to a 8/23/1977 HSCA interview report with photographer Dr. Robert F. Karnei, Karnei recalled seeing the body being probed and the probing being photographed. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=325#relPageId=5&tab=page

3. A 8/29/1977 HSCA interview report with autopsy witness James Curtis Jenkins says Mr. Jenkins said he believes Dr. Humes attempted to probe the back wound. He said he didn't believe the doctor found that the probe "...penetrated into the chest."

Jenkins was also interviewed by David Lifton: "I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe...through the pleura [the lining of the chest cavity]...You could actually see where it was making an indentation... where it was pushing the skin up... There was no entry into the chest cavity... it would have been no way that that could have exited in the front because it was then low in the chest cavity... somewhere around the junction of the descending aorta [the main artery carrying blood from the heart] or the bronchus in the lungs."

4. In the 8/11/1978 deposition of photographer Robert L. Knudsen, Knudsen spoke extensively about recalling seeing at least two photographs of probes in Kennedy's body. The descriptions by Knudsen are somewhat confusing, but the point is obvious.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=666#relPageId=23&tab=page

5. In the 7/16/1966 ARRB testimony of autopsy photographer John Stringer, he recalled a probe being inserted into the back wound and throat wound, both of which did not exit. He did not recall taking photographs of this.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&search=probe#relPageId=17&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&relPageId=36&search=probe
 
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Here are more references to body being probed during the autopsy, with tools meant for the purpose, not just digital probing with fingers.

1. According to this 1967 CBS memo from Bob Richter, Dr. Humes was a personal friend of CBS producer Jim Snyder, and Humes claimed that he X-rayed a probe that ran from Kennedy's back wound to his throat wound.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=597

So a *hearsay* reference twice removed (Richter from supposedly Snyder from supposedly Humes) four years after the fact? Not convincing.


2. According to a 8/23/1977 HSCA interview report with photographer Dr. Robert F. Karnei, Karnei recalled seeing the body being probed and the probing being photographed. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=325#relPageId=5&tab=page

3. A 8/29/1977 HSCA interview report with autopsy witness James Curtis Jenkins says Mr. Jenkins said he believes Dr. Humes attempted to probe the back wound. He said he didn't believe the doctor found that the probe "...penetrated into the chest."

Jenkins was also interviewed by David Lifton: "I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe...through the pleura [the lining of the chest cavity]...You could actually see where it was making an indentation... where it was pushing the skin up... There was no entry into the chest cavity... it would have been no way that that could have exited in the front because it was then low in the chest cavity... somewhere around the junction of the descending aorta [the main artery carrying blood from the heart] or the bronchus in the lungs."

4. In the 8/11/1978 deposition of photographer Robert L. Knudsen, Knudsen spoke extensively about recalling seeing at least two photographs of probes in Kennedy's body. The descriptions by Knudsen are somewhat confusing, but the point is obvious.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=666#relPageId=23&tab=page

So four different witnesses gave statements of their *recollections* fourteen years after the fact that don't agree with each other, and you think that's somehow significant evidence that confirms your beliefs? It's not. It shows that eyewitness testimony - especially eyewitness testimony years or decades after the fact - is extremely unreliable.

As Professor John McAdams noted here,
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/memory.htm
(and as I pointed out to you previously):

The contradictions that litter the testimony caused Dr. Jeremy Gunn, Executive Director and General Counsel of the ARRB to conclude the following in a speech at Stanford:
The last thing I wanted to mention, just in terms of how we understand the evidence and how we deal with what we have is what I will call is the profound underscore profound unreliability of eyewitness testimony. You just cannot believe it. And I can tell you something else that is even worse than eyewitness testimony and that is 35 year old eyewitness testimony.
I have taken the depositions of several people who were involved in phases of the Kennedy assassination, all the doctors who performed the autopsy of President Kennedy and people who witnessed various things and they are profoundly unreliable.

Likewise, the Final Report of the ARRB stressed the problems with witness testimony:
The deposition transcripts and other medical evidence that were released by the Review Board should be evaluated cautiously by the public. Often the witnesses contradict not only each other, but sometimes themselves. For events that transpired almost 35 years ago, all persons are likely to have failures of memory. It would be more prudent to weigh all of the evidence, with due concern for human error, rather than take single statements as "proof" for one theory or another.

What part of 'profoundly unreliable' did you not understand previously?



5. In the 7/16/1966 ARRB testimony of autopsy photographer John Stringer, he recalled a probe being inserted into the back wound and throat wound, both of which did not exit. He did not recall taking photographs of this.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&search=probe#relPageId=17&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&relPageId=36&search=probe

You mean 1996, not 1966, don't you? That's another three decades we need to add to your supposed date before Stringer made those recollections. I'll presume your subtracting 30 years from the recollection was an inadvertent typo, not an attempt to deceive.

Also, when some of the witnesses talk of a probe in the back going through to the throat, while others talk of a probe inserted in the throat but not going anywhere, while another talks of seeing photos of these probes, while another insists no photos were taken, how does this confirm in any fashion your belief that a fragment from the EOP wound in the back of JFK's head was what caused the throat wound?

Doesn't that make at least some of the witnesses simply wrong, per your view of the assassination? They can all be wrong, or some of them can be wrong, but they can't all be right. Yet you just dish them all up in one serving as if they are all equally good.

They aren't. They cannot be.

Aren't you once more just picking and choosing the good bits you like?

Hank
 
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Lol. HSienzant, do you think a probe was used at all during the autopsy? If so, why were Humes et. al so reluctant to talk about it?
 
Lol. HSienzant, do you think a probe was used at all during the autopsy? If so, why were Humes et. al so reluctant to talk about it?

lol. MicahJava, do you think recollections from 20,30,40 years after the event have any value? Especially when they contradict each other in many of the essential points?
 
lol. MicahJava, do you think recollections from 20,30,40 years after the event have any value? Especially when they contradict each other in many of the essential points?

I think it very well may be possible that all recollections are correct, all of the wounds were probed in different ways and the witnesses saw different parts of this procedure happening. Surely you're not saying that no probe was involved at all? Even Finck got around to admitting that to the ARRB, but said he didn't remember how it was used.
 
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I think it very well may be possible that all recollections are correct, all of the wounds were probed in different ways and the witnesses saw different parts of this procedure happening. Surely you're not saying that no probe was involved at all? Even Finck got around to admitting that to the ARRB, but said he didn't remember how it was used.

It was pointed out to you by another poster that this 'it may well be possible' approach is a non-starter. Remember, it may well be possible that Oswald shot JFK alone and unaided. Surely you're not saying that Oswald couldn't have shot and killed JFK alone. All it would take was a decent rifle from a tall building and a relatively good shot.

And since all the evidence points to Oswald doing exactly that, the rest is just you pulling 33-year-after-the-fact recollections out of context to pretend they agree with each other. We know they are not all possibly true... for example, Knudsen recalls seeing photos of a probe in JFK, while John Stringer, the autopsy photographer, insists no such photos were taken at any time (and later in the same interview, Stringer disavows what he supposedly told Lifton more than two decades earlier. See here (numbered page 81): https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&search=probe#relPageId=18&tab=page ).

So, on that basis alone, one of these two men is certainly having a failure of memory. Pretending all these recollections are equally true is a pretense only, as they contradict each other. Some say there was no probe, others say it was probed with a finger, others insist a metal rod was used, some say it was a metal rod inserted in the back wound and it went nowhere, another says it was inserted in the front, others say the probe went all the way through... you appear not to understand how memory can be affected by what one has read or heard, or even how the question is worded.

For example, shown a video of a car hitting a stop sign, two weeks later (only TWO WEEKS LATER) the witnesses were asked how fast the car was travelling when it hit the sign. Those who were asked a non-loaded question like "How fast was the car travelling when it struck the sign?" guessed a lower MPH than those who were asked a loaded question like "How fast was the car travelling when it smashed into the sign?" Changing the verb changed the estimate.

Now go back and review the loaded questions the witnesses were asked about a probe in the ARRB interviews.

Pretending they saw different parts of the autopsy - while none of them say they were going in and out of the autopsy room like they were on a carousel at a Disney exhibition - is equally pretense on your part. Face it, their recollections do contradict each other, and you cannot salvage them by imagining where they might all be true in some twilight-zone type scenario where each saw a different autopsy or a different part of the same autopsy.

Your suggestion reminds me of Mark Lane's treatment of the Tippit witnesses. He points out - rightly - in RUSH TO JUDGMENT that most of the witnesses described the jacket the gunman was wearing in very different terms. Some said it was tan, some said it was black, some grey, one said light blue. He takes his argument no further, which is deliberately deceptive on his part. He avoids the next step entirely, which is to draw a reasonable conclusion about what this means, and what we should conclude from these discrepancies in this particular instance, and discrepancies between witnesses in general.

What's the reasonable conclusion here, regarding the Tippit shooting and the differing descriptions of the jacket worn by the gunman?

(a) The Tippit shooting and its aftermath was staged multiple times, with the gunman changing his jacket for each staging, and each witness saw a different shooting

(b) Tippit was shot by multiple gunmen each wearing different jackets, and each witness for some reason saw only one gunman

(c) Witnesses are fallible, and sometimes get stuff wrong, as they are relying on memory to describe what they saw previously (and in some of their statements, the witness was relying on memory only a couple of hours old, at most).

Choose one.


Now compare how the Tippit witnesses got pertinent details wrong within hours of the shooting with your insistence that it's quite possible 14- or 33-years-after-the-fact, that all the HSCA and ARRB witnesses got everything perfectly right.

Your argument here is rightly judged an absurdity.

Trying to reconcile recollections from a decade or more after the fact isn't going to ever be the right approach. But that's the approach you're pushing here.

I trust you understand better why you're not making any traction here.

Hank
 
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That may be satisfactory for you, but what about the other people who don't accept that all of the autopsy witnesses hallucinated the same thing?

Kennedy's wounds were probed during the autopsy with tools meant for the purpose, including the throat wound.
 
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That may be satisfactory for you, but what about the other people who don't accept that all of the autopsy witnesses hallucinated the same thing?

Kennedy's wounds were probed during the autopsy with tools meant for the purpose, including the throat wound.

Would you agree that there are conflicting autopsy accounts?

Okay so how do you know which ones are correct and which ones are wrong?
 
Is it worth pointing out the difference between a decades old memory and a hallucination?

Or how many of those "hallucinating the same thing" contradict each other?

And how much of this stems from a failure to understand the autopsy reports rather than inaccuracies?
 
That may be satisfactory for you, but what about the other people who don't accept that all of the autopsy witnesses hallucinated the same thing?

False dichotomy. That's a logical fallacy by you. It's also a loaded question, like asking "Do you still beat your wife?" That's another no-no.

There are other possibilities other than the two you list.
(a) "all of the autopsy witnesses hallucinated the same thing".
(b) "Kennedy's wounds were probed during the autopsy with tools meant for the purpose, including the throat wound".

I in fact listed a third, which you strenuously avoided listing for some reason.
(c) All witnesses recollections are fallible (as illustrated by the Tippit witnesses recollections from within hours of the shooting, and reinforced by the ARRB caution and the reminder by Jeremy Gunn) and you are judiciously selecting from the record merely the bits you like to build a scenario that isn't supported by an unbiased review of all the evidence.

I find that option (c) to be the most reasonable. You don't?

Please tell us how you eliminated possibility (c), and how you narrowed it down to just (a) and (b) above.

I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

Hank
 
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MicahJava: I'd love to see you choose among the options for the Tippit witnesses (or add any additional ones you can think of). I notice you ignored that point entirely.

Here it is again:

Your suggestion reminds me of Mark Lane's treatment of the Tippit witnesses. He points out - rightly - in RUSH TO JUDGMENT that most of the witnesses described the jacket the gunman was wearing in very different terms. Some said it was tan, some said it was black, some grey, one said light blue. He takes his argument no further, which is deliberately deceptive on his part. He avoids the next step entirely, which is to draw a reasonable conclusion about what this means, and what we should conclude from these discrepancies in this particular instance, and discrepancies between witnesses in general.

What's the reasonable conclusion here, regarding the Tippit shooting and the differing descriptions of the jacket worn by the gunman?

(a) The Tippit shooting and its aftermath was staged multiple times, with the gunman changing his jacket for each staging, and each witness saw a different shooting

(b) Tippit was shot by multiple gunmen each wearing different jackets, and each witness for some reason saw only one gunman

(c) Witnesses are fallible, and sometimes get stuff wrong, as they are relying on memory to describe what they saw previously (and in some of their statements, the witness was relying on memory only a couple of hours old, at most).

Choose one.


Hank
 
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An astounding ZERO reasonable persons think that no tools for probing were used at the autopsy, after reading the dozen or so witness statements. I don't think you think that, either. Pierre Finck even admitted it, but didn't elaborate. The autopsy lasted for hours, so it's pretty disingenuous to compare that to the shooting of a man which took seconds.
 
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An astounding ZERO reasonable persons think that no tools for probing were used at the autopsy, after reading the dozen or so witness statements. I don't think you think that, either. Pierre Finck even admitted it, but didn't elaborate. The autopsy lasted for hours, so it's pretty disingenuous to compare that to the shooting of a man which took seconds.

But, but, you earlier insisted people were in and out, and perhaps saw different portions of the same autopsy... so don't tell me how long it took. You've already conjectured many of them didn't see the whole thing, so who knows how long - according to your own conjecture - they were actually viewing the autopsy? The length of the autopsy, according to your own arguments, is therefore rendered meaningless.

And you don't get to tell me what's a reasonable conclusion or what I think - I understand that memory is not infallible, that it can be affected by a number of factors, not least among them how the questions are phrased, and it's therefore a mistake to rely on recollections from decades after-the-fact, especially when those recollections disagree with each other in pertinent details, and sometimes disagree with earlier recollections by the same witness (see Stringer's statements to the ARRB, where he disavows his decades-earlier recollections to David Lifton) AND disagree with the hard evidence.

And how do you know what all reasonable people think, anyhow? Did you poll everyone?

Your arguments are all over the place.

Tell me how their 33-year-later recollections that don't agree with each other are more convincing than the Tippit witnesses who don't agree with each other and remembered - within hours of the shooting - different jackets on the gunman who killed Tippit.

Do ZERO reasonable persons think that the gunman wore a half-dozen jackets or something?

I'd still like you to choose one if you could be so kind (or add another option if I overlooked any):

Your suggestion reminds me of Mark Lane's treatment of the Tippit witnesses. He points out - rightly - in RUSH TO JUDGMENT that most of the witnesses described the jacket the gunman was wearing in very different terms. Some said it was tan, some said it was black, some grey, one said light blue. He takes his argument no further, which is deliberately deceptive on his part. He avoids the next step entirely, which is to draw a reasonable conclusion about what this means, and what we should conclude from these discrepancies in this particular instance, and discrepancies between witnesses in general.

What's the reasonable conclusion here, regarding the Tippit shooting and the differing descriptions of the jacket worn by the gunman?

(a) The Tippit shooting and its aftermath was staged multiple times, with the gunman changing his jacket for each staging, and each witness saw a different shooting

(b) Tippit was shot by multiple gunmen each wearing different jackets, and each witness for some reason saw only one gunman

(c) The gunman wore a half-dozen jackets, continually discarding them, and the witnesses who saw the fleeing gunman all saw him wearing a different jacket

(d) Witnesses are fallible, and sometimes get stuff wrong, as they are relying on memory to describe what they saw previously (and in some of their statements, the witness was relying on memory only a couple of hours old, at most).

Choose one.


(Note, I was kind enough to add another option which just occurred to me. Please tell me which of the above you think is most reasonable. I won't even ask you to try to justify Mark Lane's mistreatment of the issue).

Thanks,

Hank
 
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Translation: I've got nothing.

Yep and he's trying the 'I'll ignore his hard question and hope he doesn't ask it again'....oops that didn't work:

Would you agree that there are conflicting autopsy accounts?

Okay so how do you know which ones are correct and which ones are wrong?

Really how do you know which statements are the correct ones? Did you buy the equivalent of Cliff's notes for the JFK assassination?

Lets see if he ignores it again and tries to change the subject by asking me a question....MJ if you ask me a question I'll answer it of course but only after you answer mine.....
 
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I want to make one correction to myself: The problem is not whether a probe was used, but rather if the back wound was the only wound probed. Finck admitted this as early as 1969 at the trial of Clay Shaw (claiming the shallowness could have been contractions of the muscles), Boswell to the HSCA in 1978, and I think Humes to the ARRB in 1996. What I'm saying is that the throat wound and small head wound was probed. Besides Humes, Boswell, and Finck, the witness statements unanimously say there was more extensive probing.
 
I don't think I'll dignify that with a response.

Hilarious - You just did!

But not a very good one.

Effectively, you punted, avoiding addressing any of my points. I could copy and paste them here, but we both know you have no answers to the points I raised.

Regardless of how many times I ask, you'll ignore the points each time.

Right?

Hank
 
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I want to make one correction to myself: The problem is not whether a probe was used, but rather if the back wound was the only wound probed.

Sorry, that's still just an assumption on your part. You don't get to assume part of your argument is true and label it a correction. You're still assuming what you need to prove.

May I ask what you're actually attempting to prove by this?


Finck admitted this as early as 1969 at the trial of Clay Shaw (claiming the shallowness could have been contractions of the muscles),

Finck described the standard autopsy probe as non-metallic to the ARRB.

Q: What kind of probe did you use?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Is there a standard type of probe that is used in autopsies?
A: A non-metallic probe.


And since you're talking about his Clay Shaw testimony, is it not true this is what he also testified to?

Q: You were puzzled by what you found in the back, is that right?
A: I was not puzzled by what I found in the back, I was puzzled by having a definite entry in the back, a bruise in the plural region, that is the region of the cavity of the chest, which was bruised, between the entry in the back and the exit in the front, and the three of us, the prosectors, we saw that bruise, and the following day knowing that a small wound had been seen in the front of the neck that made very much sense to me, an entry in the back, a wound in the front and a bruise in between due to the passage of that bullet.


Is his testimony here accurate, do you think? If not, why not?


Boswell to the HSCA in 1978, and I think Humes to the ARRB in 1996. What I'm saying is that the throat wound and small head wound was probed. Besides Humes, Boswell, and Finck, the witness statements unanimously say there was more extensive probing.

Manwhile, Boswell described the probe in his ARRB statement as metallic, contrary to Finck's recollection.

A. It's a little soft metal instrument that looks like a needle with a blunt end on one end and a flattened end on the other, like a needle that you would knit with or something. And it's, I would say, eight inches long, blunt on one end and sort of has a sharp point on the other end.

And contrary to those who remember a probe going through the President, isn't it true that Boswell said those attempts were unsuccessful, but that upon learning of the throat wound, the autopsists then had a straight path from the neck wound to the throat wound here:

A. Yes. When we saw the clothing, we realized that where I had drawn this was--if you looked at the back of the coat, it was in the exact same place. But the coat had been--was up like this. He was waving, and this was all scrunched up like this. And the bullet went through the coat way below where this would be on his body, because it was really at the base of his neck. And the way I know this best is my memory of the fact that-- see, we probed this hole which was in his neck with all sorts of probes and everything, and it was such a small hole, basically, and the muscles were so big and strong and had closed the hole and you couldn't get a finger or a probe through it.
But when we opened the chest and we got at--the lung extends up under the clavicle and high just beneath the neck here, and the bullet had not pierced through into the lung cavity but had caused hemorrhage just outside the pleura. And so if I can move this up to here--it's shown better on the front, actually. The wound came through and downward just above the thoracic cavity and out at about the thyroid cartilage. So if you put a probe in this and got it back through like this, that would come out right at the base of the neck.



Meanwhile, Humes said this to the ARRB:
Q. Do you know what the standard autopsy protocol is for gunshot wounds and autopsy of the neck?
A. Well, no. I haven't seen that in--what you say, standard, I mean, many times if you have a track of a missile, it's helpful to take a long probe and put it in the position. It can tell you a lot of things. If you know where the point of entrance and the point of exit are, it's duck soup. But for me to start probing around in this man's neck, all I would make was false passages. There wouldn't be any track that I could put a probe through or anything of that nature. It just doesn't work that way.
Q. Was any probe used at all to track the path--
A. I don't recall that there was. There might have been some abortive efforts superficially in the back of the neck, but no.
And if there's a standard protocol, I don't know where you'd find it, to tell you the truth.


But he also said this, which conflicts entirely with your scenario:
A. My problem is, very simply stated, we had an entrance wound high in the posterior back above the scapula. We didn't know where the exit wound was at that point. I'd be the first one to admit it. We knew in general in the past that we should have been more prescient than we were, I must confess, because when we removed the breast plate and examined the thoracic cavity, we saw a contusion on the upper lobe of the lung. There was no defect in the pleura anyplace. So it's obvious that the missile had gone over that top of the lung.
Of course, the more I thought about it, the more I realized it had to go out from the neck. It was the only place it could go, after it was not found anywhere in the X-rays. So early the next morning, I called Parkland Hospital and talked with Malcolm Perry, I guess it was. And he said, Oh, yeah, there was a wound right in the middle of the neck by the tie, and we used that for the tracheotomy.


So one thing all the doctors at the autopsy agreed on was that there was confusion on the night of the autopsy concerning the bullet that struck the President in the upper back/neck region; in that they had an entry, but no wound of exit and yet no bullet was seen in the body in the x-rays. And they all said they concluded the wound in the upper back/neck exited the throat, and they all said that was their conclusion by Saturday, 11/23/63, the day after the assassination, after learning that the trache was made through an existing bullet wound, did they not?

I am wondering if you agree with the good doctors' recollections there, concerning the path of the bullet that caused the throat wound. And if not, why not?

Hank
 
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I want to make one correction to myself: The problem is not whether a probe was used, but rather if the back wound was the only wound probed. Finck admitted this as early as 1969 at the trial of Clay Shaw (claiming the shallowness could have been contractions of the muscles), Boswell to the HSCA in 1978, and I think Humes to the ARRB in 1996. What I'm saying is that the throat wound and small head wound was probed. Besides Humes, Boswell, and Finck, the witness statements unanimously say there was more extensive probing.

The funny part of all this is that they didn't need to probe the body.

The fibers on the back of JFK's jacket and shirt show an entry wound, and the fibers on the front of the shirt show an exit wound.

Probing holes, or the lack of probing is irrelevant because the ballistic evidence on the clothes is more than enough.:thumbsup:
 
The funny part of all this is that they didn't need to probe the body.

The fibers on the back of JFK's jacket and shirt show an entry wound, and the fibers on the front of the shirt show an exit wound.

Probing holes, or the lack of probing is irrelevant because the ballistic evidence on the clothes is more than enough.:thumbsup:

The part about fibers on the front of the shirt sounds a bit like junk science, but at this point I have no reason to disagree with either. You forgot to mention that the FBI examination of the necktie found the results to be more consistent with a low-speed fragment exiting the throat. And we've already been oven how the autopsy doctors thought the throat wound was a consequence of a head shot.
 
And we've already been oven how the autopsy doctors thought the throat wound was a consequence of a head shot.

Not according to their testimony quoted above. They never said anything like that.
See this post, where I quoted what they actually said: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11617407&postcount=2269

You're simply giving us your *interpretation* of what a newpaper article published in the Boston Globe the day after the assassination said (and this article was reporting on what the Parkland doctors thought). Even though that article was clearly written the day before it was published on the 23rd and the newspaper article said the autopsy hadn't even been performed yet.

You did that here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11600464&postcount=2227

The newspaper article said the PARKLAND doctors conjectured the bullet entered the throat, hit the spine, and exited the top of the head. The newspaper author - not the autopsy doctors - conjectured the bullet actually hit the head and exited the throat. The newspaper article author (Ian Menzies) has no authority here. He never viewed the body at Parkland or Bethesda. He didn't conduct the autopsy. He wasn't at the autopsy. The autopsy results weren't released to the press at that time. His argument for switching the path from that conjectured by the Parkland doctors stemmed solely from the fact that Oswald was behind the President during the shooting, and he said that:

"Since that statement Friday [about the bullet entering the throat, hitting the spine, and deflecting out the head], it is believed from determining the site of the firing that the bullet entered the back of the head first and came out just under the Adams Apple."

Dr. Perry in fact did confirm the Parkland doctors did conjecture the path attributed to them in the newspaper article:

Mr. SPECTER - Were you asked how many bullets there were?
Dr. PERRY - We were, and our reply was it was impossible with the knowledge we had at hand to ascertain if there were 1 or 2 bullets, or more. We were given, similarly to the discussion here today, hypothetical situations. "Is it possible that such would have been the case, or such and such?" If it was possible that there was one bullet. To this, I replied in the affirmative, it was possible and conceivable that it was only one bullet, but I did not know.
Mr. SPECTER - What would the trajectory, or conceivable course of one bullet have been, Dr. Perry, to account for the injuries which you observed in the President, as you stated it?
Dr. PERRY - Since I observed only two wounds in my cursory examination, it would have necessitated the missile striking probably a bony structure and being deviated in its course in order to account for these two wounds.
Mr. SPECTER - What bony structure was it conceivably?
Dr. PERRY - It required striking the spine.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you express a professional opinion that that did, in fact, happen or it was a matter of speculation that it could have happened?
Dr. PERRY - I expressed it as a matter of speculation that this was conceivable. But, again, Dr. Clark and I emphasize that we had no way of knowing.


Doctor McClelland testified to the same thing:

Mr. SPECTER - Have you had discussions with the other doctors who attended President Kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which was inflicted on him?
Dr. McCLELLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And what facts did you have available either to you or to the other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing?
Dr. McCLELLAND - Immediately we had essentially no facts. We knew nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired. We knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired, essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, 20 or 30 minutes after the President was brought in, so that our initial impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information.
Mr. SPECTER - What were your initial impressions?
Dr. McCLELLAND - The initial impression that we had was that perhaps the wound in the neck, the anterior part of the neck, was an entrance wound and that it had perhaps taken a trajectory off the anterior vertebral body and again into the skull itself, exiting out the back, to produce the massive injury in the head.


Here's the link to the full article: http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/Globe11-23-63.jpg

I previously provided that link here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11596500&postcount=2221

I pointed out the problems with your supposition / conjecture / interpretation here: http://www.internationalskeptics.co...=11597990&highlight=Boston+Globe#post11597990

Stop treating your interpretations as if they are fact.

They aren't. They never will be.

Contrary to what you claimed above, the autopsy doctors NEVER said the the throat wound was a consequence of the head shot.

That's your conjecture only, based solely on your desire for it to be true.

Hank
 
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MicahJava,

Still waiting for you to tell us what we should conclude from the Tippit witnesses almost uniformly describing the jacket in different terms.

I'd still like you to choose one if you could be so kind (or add another option if I overlooked any):

Your suggestion reminds me of Mark Lane's treatment of the Tippit witnesses. He points out - rightly - in RUSH TO JUDGMENT that most of the witnesses described the jacket the gunman was wearing in very different terms. Some said it was tan, some said it was black, some grey, one said light blue. He takes his argument no further, which is deliberately deceptive on his part. He avoids the next step entirely, which is to draw a reasonable conclusion about what this means, and what we should conclude from these discrepancies in this particular instance, and discrepancies between witnesses in general.

What's the reasonable conclusion here, regarding the Tippit shooting and the differing descriptions of the jacket worn by the gunman?

(a) The Tippit shooting and its aftermath was staged multiple times, with the gunman changing his jacket for each staging, and each witness saw a different shooting

(b) Tippit was shot by multiple gunmen each wearing different jackets, and each witness for some reason saw only one gunman

(c) The gunman wore a half-dozen jackets, continually discarding them, and the witnesses who saw the fleeing gunman all saw him wearing a different jacket

(d) Witnesses are fallible, and sometimes get stuff wrong, as they are relying on memory to describe what they saw previously (and in some of their statements, the witness was relying on memory only a couple of hours old, at most).

Choose one.


Which one of the above is the most reasonable conclusion here?

Thanks much,

Hank
 
Lets see if he ignores it again and tries to change the subject by asking me a question....MJ if you ask me a question I'll answer it of course but only after you answer mine.....

Still running from my question huh MJ? Very funny

It will be repeated until answered

Here you go 3rd time

Would you agree that there are conflicting autopsy accounts?

Okay so how do you know which ones are correct and which ones are wrong?
 
It is a truth that the doctors initially speculated that a bullet hit the throat and exited out of the back of the head, you combine that with a lie that the autopsy doctors did not seriously consider that the throat wound could be an exit for a head shot.

Despite the Boston Globe article's erroneous statement "More complete details are not expected until an autopsy is performed in Washington and this is considered likely to establish the criminality.", you would have to believe in a pretty big coincidence if you say this isn't information leaked from the autopsy, because the diagram shows the bullet entering at the exact location specified in the autopsy report, and which Dr. Humes pointed out to everybody in the room. The article isn't specific, it just says "it is now believed".

The evidence for the autopsy doctors considering the throat wound an exit for a head shot was already discussed. I definitely don't feel like going back and reposing evidence I already pointed out. You can drop the act downplaying that, it's not like there are a lot of lurkers or anything. And you're probably not impressing anybody by downplaying the autopsy witnesses by comparing them to the Tippit shooting witnesses.
 
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You can drop the act downplaying that, it's not like there are a lot of lurkers or anything. And you're probably not impressing anybody by downplaying the autopsy witnesses by comparing them to the Tippit shooting witnesses.
HSienzant's posts have impressed me as being factual, using direct quotes from the time. Yours have impressed me as using speculation, impressions, and interpretations of things said up to thirty years later. Maybe he is making an impression.
 
The part about fibers on the front of the shirt sounds a bit like junk science, but at this point I have no reason to disagree with either.

It just took a microscope. Hardly wizardry.

You forgot to mention that the FBI examination of the necktie found the results to be more consistent with a low-speed fragment exiting the throat.

Low Speed being relative, plus, the FBI had never seen a Carcano round before.


And we've already been oven how the autopsy doctors thought the throat wound was a consequence of a head shot.

Nobody thinks that. You have speculation only, and the fact is that only 2 rounds struck the President.

Despite the Boston Globe article's erroneous statement "More complete details are not expected until an autopsy is performed in Washington and this is considered likely to establish the criminality.", you would have to believe in a pretty big coincidence if you say this isn't information leaked from the autopsy

A quick history lesson:

JFK was from Massachusetts, most of his personal advisers, as well as those of RFK, were also from Massachusetts. Boston is in Massachusetts. The source for the story was likely a Kennedy insider who was talking out of his butt. Probably from RFK's staff because nobody on JFK's staff would risk upsetting Jackie by spouting BS to a reporter.

I could be wrong, but I think RFK was present at his brother's autopsy, my guess is that the source - a lay person - was too.
 
MicahJava: I'd love to see you choose among the options for the Tippit witnesses (or add any additional ones you can think of). I notice you ignored that point entirely.

Here it is again:

Your suggestion reminds me of Mark Lane's treatment of the Tippit witnesses. He points out - rightly - in RUSH TO JUDGMENT that most of the witnesses described the jacket the gunman was wearing in very different terms. Some said it was tan, some said it was black, some grey, one said light blue. He takes his argument no further, which is deliberately deceptive on his part. He avoids the next step entirely, which is to draw a reasonable conclusion about what this means, and what we should conclude from these discrepancies in this particular instance, and discrepancies between witnesses in general.

What's the reasonable conclusion here, regarding the Tippit shooting and the differing descriptions of the jacket worn by the gunman?

(a) The Tippit shooting and its aftermath was staged multiple times, with the gunman changing his jacket for each staging, and each witness saw a different shooting

(b) Tippit was shot by multiple gunmen each wearing different jackets, and each witness for some reason saw only one gunman

(c) Witnesses are fallible, and sometimes get stuff wrong, as they are relying on memory to describe what they saw previously (and in some of their statements, the witness was relying on memory only a couple of hours old, at most).

Choose one.


Hank

The jacket was blue and gold.
 
I think it very well may be possible that all recollections are correct, all of the wounds were probed in different ways and the witnesses saw different parts of this procedure happening.

I'm sure ALL witness testimony about the even is correct, with 3, 4, 8 AND 12 shots fired at the plaza, ALL points of the body being probed until there was only bloody slush left, and EVERYONE on the planet in on the conspiracy.
 
That may be satisfactory for you, but what about the other people who don't accept that all of the autopsy witnesses hallucinated the same thing?

What about all the people who claim to have seen bigfoot, or to have been abducted by aliens, or to have been healed by prayer?

An astounding ZERO reasonable persons think that no tools for probing were used at the autopsy

You've polled all reasonable people on the planet?

I don't think I'll dignify that with a response.

In other words you're out of arguments.
 
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