JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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It is a truth that the doctors initially speculated that a bullet hit the throat and exited out of the back of the head

Let's again stress that it was the PARKLAND doctors that speculated that on the afternoon of the assassination, in the absence of any information about how many shots struck the President and lacking any information about where the shooter was (or shooters were, if you prefer).

This has nothing to do with whatsoever with anything the Bethesda doctors concluded.


...you combine that with a lie that the autopsy doctors did not seriously consider that the throat wound could be an exit for a head shot.

It's not a lie. You've provided nothing attributable to any of the autopsy doctors that says that. You've in the past merely conjectured they considered that, then waited a week or so to state it was a fact.

Here's what you said originally: "Therefore, this is most likely information leaked to the media directly from the autopsy".

That was your conjecture. "Most likely" is simply your attempt to put the odds at this in your favor. In truth, the article you reference says the Parkland doctors were the source of the original conjecture, and it also says the autopsy hasn't happened yet. You ignore all that.


Despite the Boston Globe article's erroneous statement "More complete details are not expected until an autopsy is performed in Washington and this is considered likely to establish the criminality.",

"Erroneous" is, once again, simply your opinion. You're again demonstrating the ability to both accept and deny anything you like and don't like from the same source. Some would call that cherry-picking. So while the article clearly references the autopsy hasn't happened yet, and also says the source of the claim about the path of a bullet into the neck and out the head came from the Parkland doctors, you apparently wish to discount all that, and cite the image which was drawn by some newspaper staff person to illustrate Ian Menzie's reported speculation that the Parkland doctors got the path reversed.


...you would have to believe in a pretty big coincidence if you say this isn't information leaked from the autopsy, because the diagram shows the bullet entering at the exact location specified in the autopsy report

There's very few ways to draw that line from that illustration to make it come out the throat. In addition, look at the article - do the wounds described sound like the autopsy was the source?

The article says: "As it reached the throat, it pierced one or other of the two carotid arteries taking blood to and from the brain, or one or other of the two small jugular veins performing the same function, though with less pressure than in the main arteries. The bullet must also have shattered the windpipe which takes air into the lungs."

Where does the autopsy say anything like the above? It's not the source.


...and which Dr. Humes pointed out to everybody in the room.

Really? When and where?


...The article isn't specific, it just says "it is now believed".

Ian Menzies cites his source as a Boston neurosurgeon. He is unnamed:
"How did the President die? Probably either through fast loss of blood or damage to the nervous system in the brain which controls breathing, or both, said a Boston neurosurgeon piecing the details together."

This is a perfect illustration of what happens when people speculate from insufficient detail. The Parkland doctors knew of only two of the four wounds to the President that would be found at autopsy. They speculated the wounds were connected as a neck entry and head exit. People further removed from the scene knew there were two wounds, and that the President was shot from a tall building behind him. Each, working with incomplete information, drew conclusions that were entirely reasonable to them, and totally wrong.

Much like you do here every day, likewise speculating from incomplete information.


...The evidence for the autopsy doctors considering the throat wound an exit for a head shot was already discussed.

And demolished. Among other things, you referenced Parkland doctor McClelland's mention of a fragment wound of the throat, conjecturing (despite no evidence) that McClelland got that info from the autopsy doctors. I showed that the memo you referenced was prepared at a time when Air Force 1 was still in the air, on its way back to Washington. The body wasn't even in the hands of the autopsy surgeons yet when McClelland wrote his memorandum for the record, contrary to your conjecture / speculation / WAG that the autopsy doctors were the source. So they could not be the source. And I quoted above, more recently, McClelland's admission that it was simply the Parkland doctor's conjecture, from the info they had, that the two wounds were connected.


... I definitely don't feel like going back and reposing evidence I already pointed out.

Because it was already shot down previously and I can do it again.


...You can drop the act downplaying that, it's not like there are a lot of lurkers or anything.

I'm not playing to any crowd. I'm simply pointing out your errors. Let's rely on the facts to reach a conclusion instead of reaching a conclusion and relying on speculation and conjecture to justify the conclusion.


...And you're probably not impressing anybody by downplaying the autopsy witnesses by comparing them to the Tippit shooting witnesses.

Witnesses are witnesses. Until dogs and cats learn to speak, humans are going to be all we have as witnesses, and humans are fallible. You need to learn to live with that.

Regarding the varying jacket descriptions, you never did choose one.

Why? - For the same reason Mark Lane chose not to go any further in his analysis of the witnesses jacket descriptions. It establishes witnesses are fallible, and they should not be relied on for fine details. That's true whether the witnesses are recalling the murder of a policeman scant hours after his murder, or the autopsy of a President decades after his murder.

And it's true whether you or Mark Lane like it or not.

And witnesses being fallible is something you don't want to admit or accept, because witness statements taken out of context and justified after the fact by speculation is really all you have.

Hank
 
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The jacket was blue and gold.

You missed the point.

Spectacularly, I'll admit (Blue and Gold!) but you missed it nonetheless.

I'm asking MicahJava to choose the most reasonable way the witnesses recollections can be reconciled, or if they can't, to admit they can't.

I'm not asking him to choose a color or colors.

Hank
 
A quick history lesson:

JFK was from Massachusetts, most of his personal advisers, as well as those of RFK, were also from Massachusetts. Boston is in Massachusetts. The source for the story was likely a Kennedy insider who was talking out of his butt. Probably from RFK's staff because nobody on JFK's staff would risk upsetting Jackie by spouting BS to a reporter.

I could be wrong, but I think RFK was present at his brother's autopsy, my guess is that the source - a lay person - was too.

The story says the autopsy hadn't happened yet. And it was a story in the Boston Globe, so my conjecture is the Boston Globe writer reached out to a local doctor he knew, or the editor of the paper knew, and asked for his opinion, given these 'facts':
  • The shooter was behind and above the President.
  • The President had a head wound and a throat wound.
  • One bullet caused both wounds.
The Globe article also early on referenced M.G.H. (Massachusetts General Hospital) and lauded it as a teaching hospital 'staffed by the most able men', and later on says the source of the conjecture was a Boston neurosurgeon, so my guess is they reached out to someone at M.G.H. and asked that person about the wounds. And in return, gave a small plug to the hospital by lauding its staff.

But the bottom line is that the newspaper article is just hearsay, repeating conjectures from incomplete information as fact. We both recognize it's not a good source of information, MicahJava isn't convinced that hearsay newspaper articles aren't a good source, and rejecting the facts, expands upon their conjectures with additional conjectures of his own.

Hank
 
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HSienzant's posts have impressed me as being factual, using direct quotes from the time. Yours have impressed me as using speculation, impressions, and interpretations of things said up to thirty years later. Maybe he is making an impression.

Thanks for noticing.

Feedback is good.

Positive feedback is even better. ;)

Hank
 
The newspaper was published on the afternoon of the 23rd, so obviously the autopsy had been performed. No specific source is given for the head-entry-throat-exit concept, but we must at least strongly consider the possibility that this was leaked from the autopsy because it shows the entry into the head at the exact location it was in real life. The Boston neurosurgeon isn't mentioned until later. It is your speculation that it was drawn that way to demonstrate a straight angle down to the throat. It is your speculation that several autopsy witnesses were hallucinating (or "having fallible recollections" to make it sound more palatable to the average person who identifies as a skeptic).
 
When was the article written?
Does it state if the autopsy had been completed at time of writing?
Does the article offer conclusions that mirror the autopsy report?
If the article differs from the autopsy report,why would we assume it knows better than the report as written?


This is going beyond silly.
 
Doctor McClelland testified to the same thing:

Mr. SPECTER - Have you had discussions with the other doctors who attended President Kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which was inflicted on him?
Dr. McCLELLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And what facts did you have available either to you or to the other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing?
Dr. McCLELLAND - Immediately we had essentially no facts. We knew nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired. We knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired, essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, 20 or 30 minutes after the President was brought in, so that our initial impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information.
Mr. SPECTER - What were your initial impressions?
Dr. McCLELLAND - The initial impression that we had was that perhaps the wound in the neck, the anterior part of the neck, was an entrance wound and that it had perhaps taken a trajectory off the anterior vertebral body and again into the skull itself, exiting out the back, to produce the massive injury in the head.


You should have included the next line of McClelland's testimony:

However, this required some straining of the imagination to imagine that this would happen, and it was much easier to explain the apparent trajectory by means of two bullets, which we later found out apparently had been fired, than by just one then, on which basis we were originally taking to explain it.[bolding mine]
 
You missed the point.

Spectacularly, I'll admit (Blue and Gold!) but you missed it nonetheless.

I'm asking MicahJava to choose the most reasonable way the witnesses recollections can be reconciled, or if they can't, to admit they can't.

I'm not asking him to choose a color or colors.

Hank
Using absurdity, I was demonstrating perceptions differ.
 
Still running from my question huh MJ? You are looking rather foolish running from basic questions but of course it is your choice to be an intellectually ineffectual.

It will be repeated until answered

Here you go 4th time

Would you agree that there are conflicting autopsy accounts?

Okay so how do you know which ones are correct and which ones are wrong?


Boy those sure are HARD questions aren't they? lol
 
You should have included the next line of McClelland's testimony:

Yeah, a few(?) doctors thought that perhaps a bullet entered the throat and exited the back of the head. Nobody, except I think a nurse, saw the back wound.

Dr. Mcclelland speculated early on the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot. We have this memo apparently written before the autopsy, and we also have this bit from a 12/18/1963 Washington Post article: "One of the surgeons (Mcclelland?) explained over television that he was shot only once, and that a fragment from the bullet that hit his head coursed downward and emerged from the front of the throat."

So we a Parkland witness as well who thought that this could be the case.
 
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Corroboration of witness statements is a good way to know which ones are credible.

Questions avoided so they are repeated:

5th time

Would you agree that there are conflicting autopsy accounts?

Okay so how do you know which ones are correct and which ones are wrong?

maybe you need to ask someone to help you find an answer? Chuckle
 
Yeah, a few(?) doctors thought that perhaps a bullet entered the throat and exited the back of the head. Nobody, except I think a nurse, saw the back wound.

Dr. Mcclelland speculated early on the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot. We have this memo apparently written before the autopsy, and we also have this bit from a 12/18/1963 Washington Post article: "One of the surgeons (Mcclelland?) explained over television that he was shot only once, and that a fragment from the bullet that hit his head coursed downward and emerged from the front of the throat."

So we a Parkland witness as well who thought that this could be the case.

The Parkland Witness is crap.

I have posted the link of the two surviving Parkland doctors who worked on JFK. They thought the throat wound was an entrance wound, NOBODY thought the throat wound was caused by the head shot.

The doctors also walk everyone through the process of transitioning from resuscitation efforts to calling time of death, and then they talk about how hard it is to judge gunshot wounds in the context of ER operation, and how the coroner is always the last word on the subject.
 
When was the article written?
Does it state if the autopsy had been completed at time of writing?
Does the article offer conclusions that mirror the autopsy report?
If the article differs from the autopsy report,why would we assume it knows better than the report as written?


This is going beyond silly.

Beyond silly is apparently all he has at this point.

Let's ignore what the article says where convenient, and assume anything we need to that the article doesn't say also when convenient appears to be the mantra here.

Hank
 
Yeah, a few(?) doctors thought that perhaps a bullet entered the throat and exited the back of the head. Nobody, except I think a nurse, saw the back wound.

When did this nurse first say this?


Dr. Mcclelland speculated early on the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot. We have this memo apparently written before the autopsy...

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down. A week or two ago, you were claiming that McClelland got his info from the autopsy doctors (attempting to show the autopsy changed) - until I showed his memo was written before the plane even landed in Washington, D.C. Remember?

Now you're attempting to turn it around, and apparently claim McClelland's mention means the autopsy that was published was false. Or something. McClelland advanced a guess. He did NOT dissect the wound. He took no tissue samples. He did not probe the wound either. Your arguments utilizing McClelland for anything is a non-starter, especially since McClelland explained all that (and I quoted it back to you above).


...and we also have this bit from a 12/18/1963 Washington Post article: "One of the surgeons (Mcclelland?) explained over television that he was shot only once, and that a fragment from the bullet that hit his head coursed downward and emerged from the front of the throat."

I'm not aware of McClelland being on TV being interviewed at any time in the first month. Perhaps you can document that? Or post a link to the actual article so we can assure ourselves you're not taking it out of context?

This is a hearsay report, and doesn't do justice to what Dr. Perry and Dr. Clark said in the initial press conference whatsoever.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/press.htm

Perry and Clark actually conjectured the opposite path, but only after being pressed for conjecture. Even then, they said they couldn't speak with certainty whatsoever.

DR. MALCOM PERRY- I noted he was in critical condition from the wound in the neck and the head.
QUESTION- Could that be done by one shot?
DR. MALCOM PERRY- I cannot conjecture. I don’t know.
...
DR. KEMP CLARK- We were too busy to be absolutely sure of the track, but the back of his head.
QUESTION- And through the neck?
DR. KEMP CLARK- Principally on his right side, towards the right side.
...
QUESTION- Doctor, is it the assumption that it [the neck bullet - Hank] went through the head?
DR. MALCOM PERRY- That would be on conjecture on my part. There are two wounds, as Dr. Clark noted, one of the neck and one of the head. Whether they are directly related or related to two bullets, I cannot say.
...
QUESTION- Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?
DR. MALCOM PERRY- It appeared to be coming at him.
QUESTION- And the one behind?
DR. MALCOM PERRY- The nature of the wound defies the ability to describe whether it went through it from either side. I cannot tell you that. Can you, Dr. Clark?
DR. KEMP CLARK- The head wound could have been either the exit wound from the neck or it could have been a tangential wound, as it was simply a large, gaping loss of tissue.
...
QUESTION- Can’t we clear this up just a little more? In your estimation, was there one or two wounds? Just give us something.
DR. MALCOM PERRY- I don’t know. From the injury, it is conceivable that it could have been caused by one wound, but there could have been two just as well if the second bullet struck the head in addition to striking the neck, and I cannot tell you that due to the nature of the wound. There is no way for me to tell.
QUESTION- Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?
DR. MALCOM PERRY- The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes, that is correct. The exit wound, I don’t know. It could have been the head or there could have been a second wound of the head. There was not time to determine this at the particular instant.
QUESTION- Would the bullet have to travel up from the neck wound to exit through the back?
DR. MALCOM PERRY- Unless it was deviated from its course by striking bone or some other object.


Again, at best, these are conjectures only. None of the Parkland doctors performed any visual inspection of the wounds with an eye toward determining how many bullets struck the President and where they went. They were only aware of two of the four wounds on the president's body for his brief stay at Parkland. The doctors all said - rather uniformly - that nobody hung around the operating room doing any analysis once the President was declared dead.

Nobody cares - or rather, nobody cares except apparently for you - what the initial erroneous impressions of the Parkland doctors were. We conduct autopsies for a reason. Can you tell us what reason?


So we a Parkland witness as well who thought that this could be the case.

Only if you credit hearsay newspaper reports, assume they are reporting accurately, and accept conjectures by doctors who previously said any answer they gave would be a conjecture only.

Hank
 
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The newspaper was published on the afternoon of the 23rd, so obviously the autopsy had been performed.

Is the Boston Globe a morning or evening paper?

The Boston Globe is a morning paper, according to Wikipedia. There was a sister paper called the Boston Evening Globe, that was published in the afternoon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boston_Globe

The Boston Globe was founded in 1872 by six Boston businessmen, including Charles H. Taylor and Eben Jordan, who jointly invested $150,000 (worth $2,967,917 today). The first issue was published on March 4, 1872, and cost four cents. Originally a morning daily, it began a Sunday edition in 1877, which absorbed the rival Boston Weekly Globe in 1892.[5] In 1878, The Boston Globe started an afternoon edition called The Boston Evening Globe, which ceased publication in 1979. By the 1890s, The Boston Globe had become a stronghold, with an editorial staff dominated by Irish Catholics.[6]

The article in question was published in the Boston Globe, was it not? Look in the upper right hand corner of this link:
http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/Globe11-23-63.jpg
What do you see? See the word EVENING anyplace? I don't.

It was therefore published on the morning of 11/23/63, and it was reporting what the Parkland doctors said here in their press conference (conjecture about the bullet path) and then conjecturing the doctors had the path reversed, because, as they noted in the article, the shooter was behind the President.


No specific source is given for the head-entry-throat-exit concept, but we must at least strongly consider the possibility that this was leaked from the autopsy because it shows the entry into the head at the exact location it was in real life.

It says it's conjecture, based on the fact the shooter was behind the President. I covered this all in detail in post 2221. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11596500&postcount=2221
Here's an excerpt:
The story accompanying the picture you cited even says "more complete details are not expected until the autopsy is performed..."; clearly, the story was written on 11/22/63 and published early the next day.
The story also says: "The rather meager medical details attributed to Dr. Malcolm Perry, the attending surgeon, described the bullet as entering just below the Adam's Apple and leaving by the back of the head. Since that statement Friday afternoon, it is believed from determining the site of the firing that the bullet entered the back of the head first and came out just under the Adam's Apple." Clearly, this is a speculation of someone at the newspaper based on the speculation of Dr. Perry...
The speculation about a connection between the head and anterior neck wounds came originally from Dr. Perry, and it's important to note those are the only two wounds the Parkland doctors were aware of on 11/22/63 - the large wound in the head, and the small wound in the throat. So Perry speculated one bullet could do all the damage, by entering the throat, hitting the spine, and deflecting up and out the large head wound. He was wrong about that.



The Boston neurosurgeon isn't mentioned until later.

Ian Menzies (identified as the Globe's science editor) cites his source as a Boston neurosurgeon. He is unnamed:
"How did the President die? Probably either through fast loss of blood or damage to the nervous system in the brain which controls breathing, or both, said a Boston neurosurgeon piecing the details together."

It says this neurosurgeon 'pieced the details together'. Which means he's the one responsible for the conjecture about the bullet path. Not any autopsy doctors.


It is your speculation that it was drawn that way to demonstrate a straight angle down to the throat.

Yes, that's correct. And even though the autopsy doctors are uniform that they didn't reach any conclusions about the bullet path until they talked to Parkland on Saturday morning (which would have been AFTER this paper went to press), it's your speculation that somehow the autopsy conclusions which hadn't been reached yet was leaked to the Boston Globe. I think my speculation is far more reasonable than yours.


It is your speculation that several autopsy witnesses were hallucinating...

No, I never said that. Try to avoid logical fallacies like straw man arguments.


... (or "having fallible recollections" to make it sound more palatable to the average person who identifies as a skeptic).

Yes, better. As noted, the witnesses to the Tippit shooting and the immediate aftermath couldn't even remember the color of the killer's jacket correctly, within a few hours of the murder. They were certainly "having fallible recollections", were they not? Why do you think autopsy witnesses, from 33 or 34 years after the assassination would be somehow immune to "having fallible recollections"?

Serious question. Can you answer it?

Hank
 
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You may be right! If the evening edition is always called The Boston Evening Globe on the pages, then this must be the morning edition. I thought I remembered finding a source where you could read the entire 11/23/63 morning edition, and couldn't find the article with the diagram, but you may be right. That does seem pretty early for autopsy information to be leaked, but I'm still not convinced that it could only be a coincidence that it shows entry into the precise location. The only other explanation for that is that is happened to work with the 45 degree angle illustration. The neurosurgeon, i don't know, but it's getting pretty boring just arguing about this one article. I know it means a lot to you, but it doesn't to me.

Same thing with Dr. McClelland. His early explanation of the throat wound as a fragment from a head shot was probably from his own mind, and not leaked information from the autopsy. IMO it only adds credibility.

Now, let's move on to the historical value of two more items.

First, the 1/4/1964 JAMA article. There were a lot of newspapers reporting that the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot, however the JAMA article specifically said that the autopsy doctors at one point pushed this conclusion.

"Kennedy Shot Twice in Back. - President Kennedy was shot twice from the rear by the assassin who struck him down in Dallas. This unofficial finding by a team of pathologists who performed an autopsy on the President's body cleared up confusion over whether Kennedy was shot once or twice and whether both bullets came from the same direction. The autopsy was performed at Bathesda Naval Hospital on the night of Nov 22 after Kennedy's body was brought back to Washington from Dallas.

The first bullet reportedly hit Kennedy in the upper part of the right back shoulder. The bullet did not go through his body and was recovered during the autopsy. The second bullet hit Texas Gov. John B. Connally who was riding in the President's car. The third bullet hit Kennedy in the back of the right side of the head. A small fragment of this bullet also angled down and passed out through Kennedy's throat. Kennedy might have survived the first bullet, which may have ricocheted off the limousine before striking him, according to reports."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/1161559

Now, I tend to think the Journal of the American Medical Association is pretty credible about stuff like this, and the fine people there can differentiate between emergency room speculations and autopsy findings. Do you just think the part about the "team of pathologists who performed the autopsy" is just a bit of nonsense printed without much thought?

Second, this quote from Chief Counsel Lee Rankin at a 1/27/1964 Warren Commission meeting:

"Then there is a great range of material in regards to the wounds, and the autopsy and this point of exit or entrance of the bullet in front of the neck, and that all has to be developed much more than we have at the present time. We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite appare now, since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the right of the backbone, which is below the place where the picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcexec/pdf/WcEx0127.pdf


Consider that this guy is in charge of getting the official story straight. Are you going to say this is a casual flub based on something he read in the paper?
 
It only adds to the credibility that the description was speculation by a man who did not perform an autopsy? Or take notes or measurements?
 
It only adds to the credibility that the description was speculation by a man who did not perform an autopsy? Or take notes or measurements?

Apparently there's a question of whether Dr. McClelland saw the throat wound before the incision in the neck, I guess I lean towards him not seeing it, but the point is that he considered it logical at the time. Even all the way up into the autopsy when they got to see the back wound, nobody considered it logical that the back wound exited the throat, for several reasons, even though we know that the autopsy doctors investigated the throat wound as a bullet hole.
 
Yeah, a few(?) doctors thought that perhaps a bullet entered the throat and exited the back of the head. Nobody, except I think a nurse, saw the back wound.

Dr. Mcclelland speculated early on the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot. We have this memo apparently written before the autopsy, and we also have this bit from a 12/18/1963 Washington Post article: "One of the surgeons (Mcclelland?) explained over television that he was shot only once, and that a fragment from the bullet that hit his head coursed downward and emerged from the front of the throat."

So we a Parkland witness as well who thought that this could be the case.


You've missed my point for some reason. My point was that Dr. McClelland strongly implied that the single-shot scenario was highly unlikely, and the doctors at Parkland believed it was highly unlikely at the time, and that the two-shot scenario was far more plausible.
 
You've missed my point for some reason. My point was that Dr. McClelland strongly implied that the single-shot scenario was highly unlikely, and the doctors at Parkland believed it was highly unlikely at the time, and that the two-shot scenario was far more plausible.

Um, not like you're saying. And the lack of serious damage in the back of the brain (according to the official materials) shows that three shots is a better scenario.
 
Um, not like you're saying. And the lack of serious damage in the back of the brain (according to the official materials) shows that three shots is a better scenario.

Ni. It suggests you are still 100mm too low on the entry point.
 
You may be right! If the evening edition is always called The Boston Evening Globe on the pages, then this must be the morning edition. I thought I remembered finding a source where you could read the entire 11/23/63 morning edition, and couldn't find the article with the diagram, but you may be right. That does seem pretty early for autopsy information to be leaked, but I'm still not convinced that it could only be a coincidence that it shows entry into the precise location. The only other explanation for that is that is happened to work with the 45 degree angle illustration. The neurosurgeon, i don't know, but it's getting pretty boring just arguing about this one article. I know it means a lot to you, but it doesn't to me.

Hilarious. Seriously, you're funny.
You're the one who brought up the illustration here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11560266&postcount=1875

You're the one arguing for it repeatedly. I'm the one clearing up your confusion by quoting back all the language you've been ignoring. Now you're bored and don't want to discuss it anymore because it's not that important to you? Like I said, Hilarious.

I guess this is what passes for a concession speech from a conspiracy theorist. So you're admitting you were wrong and we can expect you not to bring it up again? Or are you just 'bored' and reserve the right to bring it up again in a month when you're not 'bored' with this any longer?



Same thing with Dr. McClelland. His early explanation of the throat wound as a fragment from a head shot was probably from his own mind, and not leaked information from the autopsy. IMO it only adds credibility.

Wow. Just wow. A guy with inadequate information (saw only two of the four known wounds) make a WAG about what one wound was, retracts his claim later, and you think that makes it more credible somehow. No, it makes it meaningless.



Now, let's move on to the historical value of two more items.

First, the 1/4/1964 JAMA article. There were a lot of newspapers reporting that the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot, however the JAMA article specifically said that the autopsy doctors at one point pushed this conclusion.

"Kennedy Shot Twice in Back. - President Kennedy was shot twice from the rear by the assassin who struck him down in Dallas. This unofficial finding by a team of pathologists who performed an autopsy on the President's body cleared up confusion over whether Kennedy was shot once or twice and whether both bullets came from the same direction. The autopsy was performed at Bathesda Naval Hospital on the night of Nov 22 after Kennedy's body was brought back to Washington from Dallas.

The first bullet reportedly hit Kennedy in the upper part of the right back shoulder. The bullet did not go through his body and was recovered during the autopsy. The second bullet hit Texas Gov. John B. Connally who was riding in the President's car. The third bullet hit Kennedy in the back of the right side of the head. A small fragment of this bullet also angled down and passed out through Kennedy's throat. Kennedy might have survived the first bullet, which may have ricocheted off the limousine before striking him, according to reports."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/1161559

The JAMA article is hearsay, as much as you don't want to hear that, it still is. It's got a number of items wrong, as do almost all hearsay reports. Chief here is the claim that a bullet was recovered at the autopsy, rather than at Parkland.

We discussed all this. There are two timelines you have to be aware of. Lifton did an effective job of tracing them both.

Timeline ONE:
There's the Bethesda autopsy results from the autopsy surgeons, which determined, after a discussion with Parkland, that the tracheotomy incision was made through a bullet wound in the neck. From that, the Bethesda autopsy team concluded the bullet that struck JFK in the back passed through his body and exited his throat. That became the official conclusion of the autopsy doctors, who wrote it up on 11/24/63, and signed it into the record.

Timeline TWO:
Sibert and O'Neill left the autopsy room that evening (or early the next morning) with the impression that the bullet that struck JFK in the back did not pass through the body and exit the neck. That left the throat wound unexplained. The conjecture arose at the Press Conference in Parkland that the bullet struck JFK in the throat, struck a bone, deflected upward, and exited the head. That was simply a conjecture issued by Perry and Clark to satisfy the reporters who were asking for a conclusion to report. As Lifton writes in BEST EVIDENCE, "Never before had I taken November 24th, 1963 as the date the navy autopsy was submitted. Now I studied [Judge Arnold] Fein's argument carefully. It was a revelation. His point was that if certain chronological sequences were understood, it would be clear that the FBI reports on non-transit were simply erroneous, that Humes told the truth, and that the Warren Commission had published the autopsy it received."

I've been crediting Lifton with originating the idea. But the actual case is that Judge Fein first reported this idea in the Saturday Review here:

http://www.unz.org/Pub/SaturdayRev-1966oct22-00036

This is a portion of what he wrote:
All of these books except The Second Oswald seem to ignore the fact that the FBI reports were based on the reports of Sibert and O'Neill, who were present at the autopsy; furthermore, that the doctors' autopsy report, which was revised or written in final form the next day, after the phone conversations with Dr. Perry at Parkland Hospital, was forwarded to the Secret Service, not the FBI. As Popkin notes, the FBI reports are phrased in the language of Sibert and O'Neill, rather than the technical language of the doctors.
Why is it necessary to assume falsification and a plot? Why cannot the third possibility, the unmentioned possibility —that Commander Humes's explanation is the truth—be accepted? It is not even discussed, except by Popkin. The alternatives proposed by the others involve either falsification by Humes or distortion or worse by the FBI. And although the FBI is their favorite whipping boy on other aspects of the case, here they point the finger at Humes. They do so, I suggest, because this fits more easily into their theories of conspiracy and plot.


I'm seeing this same approach throughout the more recent books and most of the online critics I encounter as well. Assume the worst, and ask others to disprove it.

That's of course, the logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof, which you do throughout your postings.



Now, I tend to think the Journal of the American Medical Association is pretty credible about stuff like this, and the fine people there can differentiate between emergency room speculations and autopsy findings. Do you just think the part about the "team of pathologists who performed the autopsy" is just a bit of nonsense printed without much thought?

They are reporting from the FBI reporting. And garbling portions of it extensively. We've already extensively covered that.

Here's the Sibert & O'Neill report.
http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/History/The_deed/Sibert-O'Neill.html
Note what they say about the autopsy conclusions.

*** During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column.
*** This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger.
*** Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X-Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets.
*** A call was made by Bureau agents to the Firearms Section of the FBI Laboratory, at which time SA CHARLES L. KILLION advised that the Laboratory had received through Secret Service Agent RICHARD JOHNSON a bullet which had reportedly been found on a stretcher in the emergency room of Parkland Hospital, Dallas, Texas. This stretcher had also contained a stethoscope and pair of rubber gloves. Agent JOHNSON had advised the Laboratory that it had not been ascertained whether or not this was the stretcher which had been used to transport the body of President KENNEDY. Agent KILLION further described this bullet as pertaining to a 6.5 millimeter rifle which would be approximately a 25 caliber rifle and that this bullet consisted of a copper alloy full jacket.
*** Immediately following receipt of this information, this was made available to Dr. HUMES who advised that in his opinion this accounted for no bullet being located which had entered the back region and that since external cardiac massage had been performed at Parkland Hospital, it was entirely possible that through such movement the bullet had worked its way back out of the point of entry and had fallen on the stretcher.
*** Also during the latter stages of the autopsy, a piece of the skull measuring 10 x 6.5 centimeters was brought to Dr. HUMES who was instructed that this had been removed from the President’s skull. Immediately this section of skull was X-Rayed, at which time it was determined by Dr. HUMES that one corner of this section revealed minute metal particles and inspection of this same area disclosed a chipping of the top portion of this piece, both of which indicated that this had been the point of exit of the bullet entering the skull region.
*** On the basis of the latter two developments, Dr. HUMES stated that the pattern was clear that the one bullet had entered the President’s back and had worked its way out of the body during external cardiac massage and that a second high velocity bullet had entered the rear of the skull and had fragmentized prior to exit through the top of the skull. He further pointed out that X-Rays had disclosed numerous fractures in the cranial area which he attributed to the force generated by the impact of the bullet in its passage through the brain area. He attributed the death of the President to a gunshot wound in the head.




Second, this quote from Chief Counsel Lee Rankin at a 1/27/1964 Warren Commission meeting:

"Then there is a great range of material in regards to the wounds, and the autopsy and this point of exit or entrance of the bullet in front of the neck, and that all has to be developed much more than we have at the present time. We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent now, since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the right of the backbone, which is below the place where the picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcexec/pdf/WcEx0127.pdf


Consider that this guy is in charge of getting the official story straight. Are you going to say this is a casual flub based on something he read in the paper?

Sigh. Same source, which tracks back to the Sibert and O'Neill report.

All this has been covered in detail with you in the past.

Please note that your JAMA citation even points out the autopsy report was in the hands of the Secret Service (not the FBI) and had NOT yet been forwarded to the Warren Commission. Why then are you assuming Rankin actually had knowledge of the Bethesda conclusions at the above WC meeting? I think it's clear he's getting stuff wrong because he's relying on FBI reports, which ultimately all trace back to the memorandum of Sibert & O'Neill, who were at the autopsy.


Hank
 
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Apparently there's a question of whether Dr. McClelland saw the throat wound before the incision in the neck, I guess I lean towards him not seeing it, but the point is that he considered it logical at the time. Even all the way up into the autopsy when they got to see the back wound, nobody considered it logical that the back wound exited the throat, for several reasons, even though we know that the autopsy doctors investigated the throat wound as a bullet hole.

How do we know that?

Certainly not from the remarks of any of the autopsy doctors.

Or the Sibert & O'Neill report concerning the autopsy.

Or anything else I'm aware that doesn't rely on decades after the fact recollections that contradict each other in many of the particulars.

How do we know that?

Hank
 
1. I am not convinced that a whole bullet, or something resembling a bullet, was not secretly recovered from the back, or recovered from the head. Didn't Humes also publicly claim that the stretcher bullet may have squeezed out of Kennedy's back at Parkland? That could explain that line from the JAMA article.

2. Lifton was operating on the assumption that the doctors did always consider the throat wound was a tracheotomy, i.e. Humes et. al were not lying or distorting information. Like I said, I think Doug Horne is more accurate on the revisions to the autopsy conclusions.

4. Your excuse for the JAMA article is just claiming that it is just a bit of nonsense, perhaps Frankensteined with something McClelland said?

Please note that your JAMA citation even points out the autopsy report was in the hands of the Secret Service (not the FBI) and had NOT yet been forwarded to the Warren Commission. Why then are you assuming Rankin actually had knowledge of the Bethesda conclusions at the above WC meeting? I think it's clear he's getting stuff wrong because he's relying on FBI reports, which ultimately all trace back to the memorandum of Sibert & O'Neill, who were at the autopsy.

4. Which autopsy report? We know we only have the third draft of the first two plus the notes that were claimed to have been burned.
 
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Dr. Pierre Finck has been denying the government-approved location of the small head wound since he testified at the trial of Clay Shaw in 1969.

See here: http://www.jfk-online.com/finckshaw.html

According to a 1978 HSCA report on an interview with Francis X. O'Neill, "O'Neill said that the autopsy doctors felt that the bullet that entered the head struck the center, low portion of the head and exited from the top, right side, towards the front."

He also drew this diagram: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md86/html/md86_0011a.htm

Again, nobody who describes who small head wound places it above the level of the ears.

Except, except... the diagram you just referenced shows it above the level of the ears. Draw a line connecting the ears. The dot indicating the entry wound is slightly above that.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/ONeill-Drawing1.gif

Your assertion is disproven. By yourself.

O'Neill puts the entry wound above the level of the ears.

Your claim that "nobody who describes who [sic] small head wound places it above the level of the ears" is clearly false. You just proved that.

Thanks for that.

(Maybe you want to try for he had a "fallible recollection").

Hank
 
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1. I am not convinced that a whole bullet, or something resembling a bullet, was not secretly recovered from the back, or recovered from the head.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Personal Incredulity
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

Whether you are convinced or not is not our problem. It's yours and your inability to be convinced isn't the deciding factor here. If you want to argue for another bullet, by all means do so. But telling us what you're not convinced of is meaningless.

Indeed, it appears you're attempting to shift the burden of proof again, and have me disprove an additional bullet that you're conjecturing. Nope. You need to prove it.

And I remind you Sibert and O'Neill said this:
*** Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X-Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets.

They were there. You were not. No bullet was recovered at the autopsy. Keep guessing. And while you're guessing, guess whose statements would be admissible in court, and whose would not?



Didn't Humes also publicly claim that the stretcher bullet may have squeezed out of Kennedy's back at Parkland? That could explain that line from the JAMA article.

Yes. But no. The report came back from the FBI (and reported in the Sibert/O'Neill memorandum) that the bullet was recovered in Parkland. JAMA is reporting that, sort of, but garbling it, saying it was recovered at the autopsy. They were only wrong by 1183.33 miles. That's what happens when you rely on second-hand information (as JAMA was apparently doing).

*** A call was made by Bureau agents to the Firearms Section of the FBI Laboratory, at which time SA CHARLES L. KILLION advised that the Laboratory had received through Secret Service Agent RICHARD JOHNSON a bullet which had reportedly been found on a stretcher in the emergency room of Parkland Hospital, Dallas, Texas. This stretcher had also contained a stethoscope and pair of rubber gloves. Agent JOHNSON had advised the Laboratory that it had not been ascertained whether or not this was the stretcher which had been used to transport the body of President KENNEDY. Agent KILLION further described this bullet as pertaining to a 6.5 millimeter rifle which would be approximately a 25 caliber rifle and that this bullet consisted of a copper alloy full jacket.

JAMA said this: The bullet did not go through his body and was recovered during the autopsy.
The FBI agents said this: ... the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets.

The bullet in question was recovered well before the autopsy, in Parkland. It was reported to Bethesda during the autopsy. JAMA butchered the point. I said that. That's hearsay for you Keep relying on it. It makes it easier to puncture your arguments. Also note that the Sibert/O'Neill report credits Killion with an erroneous bit of hearsay as well, saying the bullet was recovered in the emergency room. It wasn't, it was recovered on a different floor from the emergency room entirely - in a hallway near some elevators. Again, that's hearsay for you.



2. Lifton was operating on the assumption that the doctors did always consider the throat wound was a tracheotomy, i.e. Humes et. al were not lying or distorting information.

Lifton details his thinking quite effectly in his book. You are apparently unaware that Lifton is explaining how his thinking shifted from a fraudulent autopsy to a legitimate one. He wasn't assuming anything like you suggest. Indeed, in his book he goes into depth explaining how he thought Humes was lying to being convinced he wasn't. Lifton was a conspiracy theorist very early on - probably before you were born. Please, stop guessing. Just stop.



Like I said, I think Doug Horne is more accurate on the revisions to the autopsy conclusions.

I already shot that down. True to form, you waited a few weeks to bring the same argument up again.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11596500&postcount=2221



4. Your excuse for the JAMA article is just claiming that it is just a bit of nonsense, perhaps Frankensteined with something McClelland said?

Logical Fallacy: Straw Man Argument
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Try to rebut what I actually said, not what you find easiest to rebut.



4. Which autopsy report? We know we only have the third draft of the first two plus the notes that were claimed to have been burned.

Logical Fallacy: Moving the Goalposts (special pleading)
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

Your point has been answered. You're now raising a different point. And although you quote my question, you don't even attempt to answer my question: Please note that your JAMA citation even points out the autopsy report was in the hands of the Secret Service (not the FBI) and had NOT yet been forwarded to the Warren Commission. Why then are you assuming Rankin actually had knowledge of the Bethesda conclusions at the above WC meeting?

The autopsy in the record, that's which one. You don't prove your case by assuming your case. Above you're assuming the autopsy report is not legitimate, but that's what you need to prove.

Hank
 
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Except, except... the diagram you just referenced shows it above the level of the ears. Draw a line connecting the ears. The dot indicating the entry wound is slightly above that.

http://simfootball.net/JFK/ONeill-Drawing1.gif

Your assertion is disproven. By yourself.

O'Neill puts the entry wound above the level of the ears.

Your claim that "nobody who describes who [sic] small head wound places it above the level of the ears" is clearly false. You just proved that.

Thanks for that.

(Maybe you want to try for he had a "fallible recollection").

Hank

You have fun with that. Now find one that's 4 inches above the level of the ears.
 
I think you are guilty of the biggest logical fallacy of all: When presented with a problem, you find any scrap of information that could come close to maybe giving a solution (even when it kinda doesn't), and then claiming that the problem is solved. What's the agreed-upon term for that? For example, I ask what Lee Rankin was talking about when he said the autopsy doctors thought a the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot, and you give me something referring to the new-and-improved autopsy report with the back-throat connection. Like, I didn't ask for that.
 
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I think you are guilty of the biggest logical fallacy of all: When presented with a problem, you find any scrap of information that could come close to maybe giving a solution (even when it kinda doesn't), and then claiming that the problem is solved. What's the agreed-upon term for that?

I don't know the term for that. But what Hank is doing is called "Citing Evidence."

The evidence dos happen to debunk your claims. It seems you are having to put a lot of effort into not understanding it, or not believing the blatant.

For examples, you are STILL quibling where a bullet hole may appear in rough diagrams not drawn to scale, when we have photographs that everybody else can se proves you wrong.

You really, really, really want there to be abullet wound somewhere else on the wound, but it is 100mm abov your claim.

Your other claims are nonsense about how the brain would be damaged, or where the exit wound would be IF there was a reason to believe that the bullet hole was somewhere else. It wasn't. Nobody cares what ill informed newspaper report you found says...we can test it net to the autopsy record, xrays, and photographs.

You. Are. Wrong.
 
You have fun with that. Now find one that's 4 inches above the level of the ears.


Logical Fallacy:
Moving the Goalposts (special pleading)
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/129/Moving_the_Goalposts

I exposed your claim as false. You issue a different claim. Sorry, no.

The WC schematic drawing put it at the level of the ears:
https://kennedykilledhimself.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/rydberg.gif

The HSCA put it slightly above the level of the ears:
https://kennedykilledhimself.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/idadox.jpg

The autopsy photos put it slightly above the level of the ears:
https://kennedykilledhimself.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/dox2.jpg

It's never been placed four inches above the ears by anyone. Until now. By you.

Hank
 
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Still waiting, MicahJava: What's all this in aid of? If everything you allege is true, what does it establish? Do you have any underlying idea? How long can you go through these gruesome assertions without coming to a conclusion?

A conclusion that anybody gives a rat's arse about would be especially nice. Come on, reward the world with your brilliant brilliance.
 
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I think you are guilty of the biggest logical fallacy of all: When presented with a problem, you find any scrap of information that could come close to maybe giving a solution (even when it kinda doesn't), and then claiming that the problem is solved. What's the agreed-upon term for that?

You accuse me of a logical fallacy you can't even name. Hilarious.

Another poster (Tomtomkent) already addressed this. I note you're ignoring all my points (buttressed with citations to the evidence) and simply issuing another assertion based on nothing but your current 'thinking'.

Let's explain this again: Nobody cares what you think.

The debate forum isn't for "What MicahJava Thinks", it's for discussion of the JFK assassination evidence, and what that establishes.

You, curiously, cite your own opinion, hearsay from press accounts, out of context quotes to the Warren Commission, recollections from 14-years after the fact to the HSCA, recollections from 33-years after the fact to the ARRB, and whatever assertions you can glean from assorted conspiracy websites.

I keep setting the record straight by citing the actual evidence in context, and showing how your assumptions and assertions aren't based on the very documents you cite (like claiming nobody placed the wound above the level of the ears, while also providing a link to O'Neill's drawing in 1978 that placed the wound above the level of the ears).

Didn't you find that funny?

I certainly did.

It reminded me of something I saw on the Ed Sullivan show back in the early 1960's, where a magician/comedian would do a magic trick that amazed the audience (and me) and then, in moving on to the next trick, would "inadvertently" reveal how the trick was done, drawing a big laugh. He was really quite good at it.

You appear to be working hard to perfect that craft.

EDIT: Found a link on youtube to this guy, Mac Ronay. He doesn't do the same tricks I remember, but this is apparently the guy I remember: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZUAVVMZ_xo



For example, I ask what Lee Rankin was talking about when he said the autopsy doctors thought a the throat wound was a fragment from a head shot, and you give me something referring to the new-and-improved autopsy report with the back-throat connection. Like, I didn't ask for that.

LOGICAL FALLACY: Straw Man Argument
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/169/Strawman_Fallacy

Your summary of my argument sounds nothing like my argument.

I specifically excluded the autopsy doctor's autopsy report as the source of Rankin's statements. I pointed out your own citation to a JAMA hearsay report of early January, 1964, said that report was forwarded to the Secret Service, and was not yet in the hands of the FBI or the Warren Commission. I pointed out the FBI Sibert/O'Neill report says the bullet that struck JFK in the upper back/neck did not transit, and it was apparently the document (along with subsequent FBI summaries, claiming the throat wound was caused by a fragment from the head shot) that Rankin was utilizing as his source. See this:

Sigh. Same source, which tracks back to the Sibert and O'Neill report.
All this has been covered in detail with you in the past.
Please note that your JAMA citation even points out the autopsy report was in the hands of the Secret Service (not the FBI) and had NOT yet been forwarded to the Warren Commission. Why then are you assuming Rankin actually had knowledge of the Bethesda conclusions at the above WC meeting? I think it's clear he's getting stuff wrong because he's relying on FBI reports, which ultimately all trace back to the memorandum of Sibert & O'Neill, who were at the autopsy.

I've also taken some time to point out to you more than once that David Lifton, in his book Best Evidence has a detailed exposition on just how the two timelines for the differing conclusions of the autopsy arose - and just why and how it changed from non-transit to transit.

While the autopsists changed their conclusion from non-transit to transit on the morning of Saturday, 11/23/63 after talking to Dr. Perry of Parkland Hospital, and that conclusion is reflected in their official report of 11/24/63, the FBI based its summary conclusions on the Sibert/O'Neill memorandum that reflected the non-transit conclusion derived by the autopsists in the evening of 11/22/63.

The FBI also leaked those conclusions to the press in December, which accounts for the December '63, January '64 press reports of non-transit, and of the throat wound being caused by a fragment of the head shot.
 
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File Under B for "Better Late Than Never"

I cited Connally's first hand statement, from his autobiography. Are you actually calling Mickey Herskowitz a liar?? This man's reputation is impeccable. He has written for numerous other celebrities, including an American president. From Wikipedia:

He has authored over 30 books, many of them jointly written autobiographies of famous Americans in politics, sports and media (including Gene Autry, Nolan Ryan, Paul “Bear” Bryant, George Allen, Tom Kite, John Connally and Prescott Bush), and others ghostwritten autobiographies of celebrities in similar fields (including Dan Rather, Mickey Mantle, Howard Cosell, Bette Davis, Shirley Jones, Marty Ingels and Gene Tierney).

This man has NEVER been accused of lying or misrepresenting the people he wrote for, and he was citing Connally's first person statements... [bolding in the original - Hank]

That's untrue.

From the very book Robert Harris cited as his source, IN HISTORY'S SHADOW (by Connally & Herskowitz) [https://www.amazon.com/Historys-Shadow-American-Odyssey/dp/156282791X] it says this, all in the first chapter:

"It is no longer possible to say with certitude how much of the race to Parkland Memorial Hospital I remember and how much I have been told by Nellie, or picked up from watching the news films or reading the official reports." [page 12]

"Many of my memories are secondhand. I am missing the most historic minutes of my life. There are blank spaces in an unbearable scene; perhaps I could not have borne the scene otherwise." [page 15]

"This is what I missed, what I would put together from the accounts of those who survived that day in Dallas." [page 15]


So it is clearly NOT Governor Connally's first person account, as Robert Harris insisted then (and insists still on other forums). It was a recreation, from memory and other sources. It was in great part cobbled together from second-hand sources, which Connally freely admits, which makes it hard to say what is hearsay and what is from Connally's memory bank. But even the stuff from Connally's own memory bank isn't trustworthy, for the same reasons the stuff from my memory bank, or Robert's, or the readers, isn't trustworthy. We're all fallible, and so are our memories. And Connally admitted to the problem in the book Robert Harris cites from!

In short, Robert Harris was putting way too much emphasis on statements published 30 years after the events in question, in 1993 (after Connally was deceased) where the line between recreated conversations and actual conversations has been blurred beyond recognition, while Robert Harris was ignoring entirely the statements Connally made under oath to both the Warren Commission in 1964 and the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1978.

If you recall, Harris cited claims from the 1993 book about a bullet recovered in Parkland Hospital from the book, while Connally's earlier sworn testimony, of course, mentions nothing like that.

Hank
 
I forgot to mention yet another important autopsy witness attesting to the EOP wound, Chester H. Boyers.

4/25/1978 affidavit to the HSCA:

"5. During the autopsy people were frequently moving around. In regard to the wounds inflicted upon President Kennedy, I recall an entrance wound situated near the external occipital protuberance in the rear of the head which exited on the right side of the head above the right eyebrow and towards the rear. Another wound was located near the right shoulder blade, more specifically just under the scapula and next to it. I also observed that a tracheotomy had been performed on the President."

http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/HSCA/BOYERS.TXT

It would be nice to assemble yet another panel of experts to study the medical evidence, at least the nature of the head wounds as depicted on X-rays, skull photographs etc. because having the wound there really does indicate two shots to the head, just like Kennedy's personal physician Dr. Burkley suggested.
 
So, since that was an entrance wound, who are you saying shot Kennedy in the back of the head, if not Oswald?

By the way, how "near" is "near"?

Pretty much every description and diagram I've seen showing where the bullet struck would class as "near" to the EOP.
 
So, since that was an entrance wound, who are you saying shot Kennedy in the back of the head, if not Oswald?

By the way, how "near" is "near"?

Pretty much every description and diagram I've seen showing where the bullet struck would class as "near" to the EOP.

If the autopsy report bothered to record "2.5 centimeters to the right", then we can infer that "slightly above" means less than one centimeter above. Later consultations with the autopsy professionals made it clear that "slightly above" was supposed to mean just barely above the level of the EOP.

If you didn't see the rest of the thread, the basic fact that the right cerebellum in the official brain photographs isn't torn open from a bullet tumbling in and out of it means that it could not have exited the top-right side of the head, thus there were two head shots, one of which just brushed past the rear of the brain and hit the floor of the skull.
 
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Um...no.
You just posted a quote, presumably as evidence.

Nowhere in that quote does it say "slightly above" or anything about distances.
It simply says:
I recall an entrance wound situated near the external occipital protuberance in the rear of the head...
Note, this is your information, not mine.

Nowhere does it mention two shots to the head.
It mentions a single entrance wound, and a single exit wound in the head.
 
If the autopsy report bothered to record "2.5 centimeters to the right", then we can infer that "slightly above" means less than one centimeter above.

No, we can't. This was not an excerpt from an autopsy report compiled at the time of the autopsy, but a witness account recalled fifteen years later. In context, "slightly above" is impossible to quantify. It's also worth mentioning a later excerpt from the same document:

In concluding, Boyers said that the pathologists concluded that the President was shot from behind with two missiles.

It's clear that he meant one through the head, entering at the rear and exiting at the front, and one entering near the scapula, presumably exiting through the wound he believed to be a tracheotomy. So we cannot conclude, from the testimony of a witness who categorically states that there was evidence of one and only one bullet hitting the head, that two bullets hit the head.

Dave
 
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