General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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Degeneve said:
This guy has found several hundreds of holocaust mass graves in Ukraine and got testimonies of eye witnesses who could tell what happened there and how it happened: http://www.yahadinunum.org/

His website has even an interactive map to all mass executions sites he could find.

You might also read his book. It has been translated into English.
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For anyone interested, that is, anyone not Saggy, here are notes I made on a talk Fr Desbois gave in September 2016:
Seven points I was struck by and want to invite comment on:

First, Desbois remarked that in the town he grew up in in Burgundy, two Germans were killed during the war - and everyone knew about it, even him after the war. How then, he asked, can it be that people in the east have insisted that what the Germans did, they did in secret and nobody knew, for example, in Rawa Ruska where 1000s of Jews and 1000s of Russian POWs were shot outside the town?

Second, following on this question, which relates to the war and to what people "remember" and talk about, Desbois noted that "you cannot commit genocide without involving the neighbors." Desbois then described typical execution processes used by the Germans and gave some examples to explain so few people were able to kill so many and what the mass murder operations "looked like."

Third, Desbois said that in one way it is easy for his team to find some of the mass graves (he's documented 1,900 execution sites in areas of the occupied USSR) because "the neighbors are looking for gold, still."

Four, Yahad in Unum has a fulltime staff of 27 in Paris - one member of which is focused entirely on handling correspondence from families/descendants of Jews who died during the war in the occupied USSR; letter writers often don't ask where a relative wound up but rather tell Yahad in Unum that the family have had no news, usually, since '41.

Fifth, Desbois said that the situation in Europe is critical, in his view; basically, talk to young people and you will find a goodly number of them who tell you that the Holocaust is a fraud invented by the Jews to trick people out of their money or to get support for Israel. Desbois was just appointed to an endowed chair in forensic study of the Holocaust at Georgetown U - his appointment beginning last week - and he noted that "America is heaven, our heaven has ended" in Europe. He related that Y-i-U's office in Paris moved in part due to complaints by neighbors that it "brings the Jews." In his view, anti-Semitism and denial are serious problems on the continent - and he gave combating denial as one of the foundation reasons for the importance of his work.

Sixth, Desbois remarked on the anonymity of the mass graves in the east, and, from his religious point of view, on the absence of memorials to those who perished. In this regard, he told how during some of his work in Poland an older man explained to him that Hitler made one mistake - Auschwitz - "because when we killed them in the forest, the Jews never came back" the way they now do for memorial and educational visits to the camps.

Last, Desbois' work has gained a second focus, which he spent about 1/4 of his lecture on, maybe a bit more: the genocidal work - he called it "a science" - of ISIS, which he sees as astonishingly fast at developing genocidal systems and implementing them. He said that a genocide is not a simple matter, that it's complex and that he has been surprised (having made six investigative trips to Syria and Iraq) at ISIS's expertise in mass murder and destruction of the Yazidis and also of Christians in the region. He tied this work in the present to the lessons learned in the Holocaust work he and his team have carried out and continue to do.

(I should add - thinking of Rodoh mockery of Desbois and his findings - that he showed only a couple of images of excavated mass graves, which he has Jewish religious authorities oversee, and the images showed a great many bones from obviously many victims. Desbois described finding the skeleton of one young girl, IIRC, near the edge of a former pit - with mouth locked wide open as if gasping for air or crying out . . . )
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One last comment on Saggy's use of the Porter quote-mine from the Black Book.

I've read several 100s of books on the Holocaust, and too many articles, web-sources, etc to count. Only posted by Saggy in this forum and on denier and anti-Semitic websites have I come across the "quicklime" quotation - until tracking it to the Black Book. I've never encountered this quotation in a single instance in any of the historical studies I've read.

Not a single poster in this forum has to my knowledge used this quotation as evidence for the genocide of the Jews during WWII.

Saggy is so desperate in the face of all the evidence that we have posted that he has to resort to posting irrelevant material which none of us has even awareness of. It is as though Saggy were to try disproving a murderer's guilt when the police have documentary evidence, forensics, and eyewitnesses to the shooting by referring to a drunk at a neighborhood bar who claims he saw the man stab the victim. It's daft, but it's a dog that won't hunt, sorry.
 
LemmyCaution said:
One last comment on Saggy's use of the Porter quote-mine from the Black Book.
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I first came across quotes from the Black Book on the skeptics forum I think. One fellow posted quote after quote. There is no shortage of absurd quotes. In fact I have a list, but not all of the quotes he posted. He was, predictably banned.
 
Saggy said:
I first came across quotes from the Black Book on the skeptics forum I think. One fellow posted quote after quote. There is no shortage of absurd quotes. In fact I have a list, but not all of the quotes he posted. He was, predictably banned.
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Did you get a chance to read that Wikipedia link I sent you? I hope it helped in some way.
 
Saggy said:
I first came across quotes from the Black Book on the skeptics forum I think. One fellow posted quote after quote. There is no shortage of absurd quotes. In fact I have a list, but not all of the quotes he posted. He was, predictably banned.
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So basically you're saying you collect out-of-context, cherry-picked quotations that explain nothing and that those who study the period don't rely on. That is what I thought.

But, Saggy, the main thing is that you don't do history by quotations or else I'd post that the Führer said of the Jews "By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea"; Rosenberg wrote that "In the east some six million Jews still live, and this question can only be solved in a biological eradication of the entire Jewry of Europe"; Hitler declared "I wish to avoid making hasty prophesies, but this war will not end as the Jews imagine, namely, in the extermination of the European-Aryan people; instead, the result of this war will be the annihilation of Jewry"; Hitler reiterated "my prophecy will find its fulfillment, that through this war Aryan humankind will not be annihilated, but the Jew will be exterminated" - and call it a day.
 
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Saggy said:
I first came across quotes from the Black Book on the skeptics forum I think.
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Jarvis posted the quotation at SSF, without citing a source and with no mention of The Black Book, on Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:21 am. Focus had posted it using Porter's Black Book citation on Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:23 am. Focus liked the quotation because on Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:52 am he posted it again, also with The Black Book reference.

In these three cases the posts were by revisionists cherrypicking Porter's cherrypicked quotations - there was no mention of Grossman & Ehrenburg's book at SSF; the posts were made in a thread called "Holocaust Whopper Series," which was basically a silly list of out of context quotations presented without an iota of analysis. You wrote, embarrassingly, "This is a great series." It was actually dreadful and of no value for understanding either the history or what scholars have concluded.

You seem to have attached the quotation, erroneously, to Grossman & Ehrenburg by another route, I am guessing the equally silly and useless Holohoax 101 website.
 
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Degeneve said:
Saggy behaves as a drunk parrot: he keeps repeating the same idiocies without understanding what they mean.
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an insult to drunk parrots everywhere as I understand they at the least listen and respond to what others say
 
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LemmyCaution said:
Jarvis posted the quotation at SSF, without citing a source and with no mention of The Black Book, on Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:21 am. Focus posted it using Porter's Black Book citation on Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:23 am. Focus liked the quotation because on Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:52 am he posted it again, also with The Black Book reference.

In these three cases the posts were by revisionists cherrypicking Porter's cherrypicked quotations - there was no mention of Grossman & Ehrenburg's book at SSF; the posts were made in a thread called "Holocaust Whopper Series," which was basically a silly list of out of context quotations presented without an iota of analysis. You wrote, embarrassingly, "This is a great series."

You seem to have attached the quotation, erroneously, to Grossman & Ehrenburg by another route, I am guessing the equally silly and useless Holohoax 101 website.
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It was a great series, I just wish I'd copied all the quotes ! But .... you're right that obscure idiotic quotes by nameless Jews are a dime a dozen.

What we need are egregiously absurd quotes that carry the authority of the USHMM and Yad Vashem, and .... Steven Spielberg. No problem, there is no shortage of completely idiotic quotes supported by them and vetted by rabbis and holohoax scholars, and included in Spielberg's movie 'The Big Lie' (Edit: oops 'The Last Days' )

Spielberg had 50,000 recorded testimonies to choose from, and when he made his movie of the most credible and compelling he chose, among others equally idiotic, Irene Zisblatt, who claims, among other things, that she swallowed and pooped diamonds for 1 - 1.5 - 2 ? years. A classic, let's have a look ...

Irene Zizblatt - a holohoax witness vetted by the USHMM, Yad Vashem, rabbis, holohoax scholars, Steven Spielberg, the Academy Awards (the movie won an AA for best documentary, believe it or not :) ) , and the entire holohoax establishment ...

gNtzKwF.jpg


See the clip from Spielberg's vid ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wAbjUqHTNA

See the complete idiocy of each of Spielberg's lying eyewitnesses dissected in the 'The Last Days of the Big Lie' ...

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80GgRWuXcO8

The point is not that Irene Zizblatt is telling absurd lies, the point is that Spielberg, the USHMM, Yad Vashem, every rabbi, every holohoax scholar, every Jew, every academic who doesn't expose this degenerate idiocy, is telling absurd lies.
 
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Saggy said:
It was a great series, I just wish I'd copied all the quotes !
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The threads are still there.

Saggy said:
But .... you're right that obscure idiotic quotes by nameless Jews are a dime a dozen.
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Do not misquote me or lie about what I have said: I wrote no such thing.

Saggy said:
What we need are egregiously absurd quotes that carry the authority of the USHMM and Yad Vashem, and .... Steven Spielberg.
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Your call; as I told you, assembling quotations is not a way of understanding history.

Saggy said:
Spielberg had 50,000 recorded testimonies to choose from, and when he made his movie of the most credible and compelling he chose, among others equally idiotic, Irene Zisblatt, who claims, among other things, that she swallowed and pooped diamonds for 1 - 1.5 - 2 ? years. A classic, let's have a look ...

Irene Zizblatt - a holohoax witness vetted by the USHMM, Yad Vashem, rabbis, holohoax scholars, Steven Spielberg, the Academy Awards (the movie won an AA for best documentary, believe it or not :) ) , and the entire holohoax establishment ...
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Utter BS. Here is one member of the "holohoax establishment" writing about Zisblatt: " Stories, such as Mrs. Zisblatt's, full of easily refutable details, are simply an easy target for the deniers. It is not sufficient to defend the historical truth about the Holocaust only against distortions from the deniers' side. Distortions from the side of exaggerators, mythmakers, and self-aggrandizers must equally be rejected. A matter as serious as the Holocaust demands serious, honest, and accurate treatment. Not least with regard to the dignity and the memory of those who perished.". Whoopsie, you're wrong yet again.

Saggy said:
See the clip from Spielberg's vid ...
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Do you really imagine that this old nonsense you're posting is news to people here, if they've followed the antics of denial in recent years? Seriously? I thought you promised to come up with something new and interesting . . . w'appen?
 
Saggy said:
Do not post again until you have identified and described one excavated holohoax mass grave and provided a non Muehlenkamp link

Is that too much to ask?
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BING!

http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

This provides details of numerous graves in the area of the Chelmno extermination camp that were subjected to invasive archaeological examination that found evidence consistent with cremains.

How the phuck were you unaware of this?
 
Saggy said:
Now we're getting somewhere.
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We are. You on the contrary, are still sitting with your balls in your hand.

There are no mass graves containing bodies because the Nazis destroyed all the evidence, burned all the bodies.
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As we have laboriously documented and proven, there is copious evidence left, including hundreds of mass graves.

Six million killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms
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You hear that sound boy!?!?!? That's the sound of whatever credibility you may have had going up in a puff of smoke. Nicely done :dig::thumbsup:

there are no bodies
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Desbois, Patrick. Google. Now!

no documents.
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You have contradicted your earlier assertion that it was the best documented genocide in history. There are loads of documents. The Hans Frank diaries and the correspondence between Eichmann and Luther for example.

Burned the bodies,
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They did not.

dynamited the gas chambers
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Not all of them.

, and shredded the documents.
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They did not.

You could at least make it hard for us. I mean really.
 
LeoMajor said:
BING!

http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

This provides details of numerous graves in the area of the Chelmno extermination camp that were subjected to invasive archaeological examination that found evidence consistent with cremains.

How the phuck were you unaware of this?
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especially as that link, and others, have been posted in this very thread already! lol - part of Saggy's empty reply earlier:
Muehlenkamp, "Human remains inside the mass graves at Chełmno, Bełżec and Sobibór"

Muehlenkamp's life is promoting the hoax, thus he is not reliable, I wouldn't trust Netanyahu on the matter either. Give me a wiki, or even USHMM or Yad Vashem, link on the non-existent mass graves at Chełmno, Bełżec and Sobibór
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He missed the museum link and others because he is so intimidated by Muehlenkamp!
 
LeoMajor said:
They did not burn all of the bodies and they did not shred all of the documents. Saggys argument was that there were none of either.
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Disagree. Saggy seems to be hell bent upon Jooooooo blaming for anything that ever went wrong throughout all of history. Why? Beats seven shades out of me. One cannot rationalise the irrational.
 
Saggy said:
Now we're getting somewhere. There are no mass graves containing bodies because the Nazis destroyed all the evidence, burned all the bodies. Six million killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms in the best documented genocide in history, and yet there are no bodies, no murder weapons, i.e. gas chambers, and no documents.

The Nazis committed the perfect crime. Burned the bodies, dynamited the gas chambers, and shredded the documents.

Except of course for the eyewitnesses ..... :) really this is the most idiotic and absurd hoax ever.
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They did not commit the perfect crime. Enquiry after the war found the evidence to prove the crime was committed.

When allegations were made the Nazis had cremated the bodies, enquiry established large areas of cremated remains just where witnesses (both Nazi and Jewish) said bodies had been burned and buried.

Buildings used as gas chambers were traced, not all of which had been dynamited. The second gas chamber at TII was described by witnesses to have been made of brick with specifically coloured tiles. The remains of that building, with bricks and tiles as described, was found buried at TII in 2014.

Documents have been traced, such as the Stroop Report, which make it clear the AR camps were killing centres.

The hoax is your one of the AR camps were not killing centres and instead millions were transited through them to other places. Yet there are no witnesses, documents or physical evidence for that.

How did the Nazis hide so any people and how did they stay hidden even when they were liberated and the war ended?
 
Saggy said:
......
The point is not that Irene Zizblatt is telling absurd lies, the point is that Spielberg, the USHMM, Yad Vashem, every rabbi, every holohoax scholar, every Jew, every academic who doesn't expose this degenerate idiocy, is telling absurd lies.
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That is a lot of liars. To which you have to add millions who did not die as claimed and numerous governments which list those people as dead. That is a massive CT.
 
LeoMajor said:
They did not burn all of the bodies and they did not shred all of the documents. Saggys argument was that there were none of either.
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With the qualifier "all", agreed. They did not leave behind a Field Guide to Wot We Done Did, but did leave a variety criminal traces, borrowing Pressac's word, of various types (forensic, documentary, eyewitness, etc).
 
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Nessie said:
That is a lot of liars. To which you have to add millions who did not die as claimed and numerous governments which list those people as dead. That is a massive CT.
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On top of which, Saggy has already informed us that he refuses to read what "holohoax scholars," Jews, and academics have to say about the Holocaust. Yet his magic Jew detector informs him that the works of these people are filled with Jewish lies.

That could be why Saggy pictures the scholarship as being filled with quote-stacks and Zurmanski, Zisblatt and Wiesel. He has no idea what's in the works he dismisses and vilifies.
 
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Nessie said:
That is a lot of liars. To which you have to add millions who did not die as claimed and numerous governments which list those people as dead. That is a massive CT.
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And as demonstrated in this discussion, most of these "governments which list people as dead" were not friendly to Jews and had absolutely no motive to fake anything on their behalf. In particular, the USSR's policy was to cover up the Genocide against the Jews. Not only would this alleged CT need to have been massive, but it also directly contradicts the policies of the nations alleged to have perpetrated it, making it impossible.
 
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Ivanesca said:
And as demonstrated in this discussion, most of these "governments which list people as dead" were not friendly to Jews and had absolutely no motive to fake anything on their behalf. In particular, the USSR's policy was to cover up the Genocide against the Jews. A massive and impossible CT.
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Which brings us back to this, a request for a history or at least a minimal account of the hoax, something its advocates are extremely reticent to provide.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Which brings us back to this, a request for a history or at least a minimal account of the hoax, something its advocates are extremely reticent to provide.
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To be fair, they can't provide an account of something non-existent.

We have the same issue with another division of The Stupidati; Moon hoax believers. They throw barbs and point out anomalies, and claim Apollo was faked, but when you ask the to come up with a an account of how it all might have been done, they go quiet.
 
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OK Saggy, you've whiffed on the Netherlands, Liepaja, the NKVD, Porter's quote-mine and everything else. Let's try another one, the fate of Warsaw Jews.

A few years ago Eric Hunt made a video claiming he had evidence that many 1000s of deportees to Treblinka had been transferred East. He came to SSF to defend his video and utterly failed, his data shown to be sketchy, his claims erroneous, his chronology wrong, and his interpretations groundless. A number of us who post here were part of that discussion, including Nick Terry, Matthew Ellard, and Nessie.

Eric abandoned the SSF discussion in seeming frustration and later posted a plea for help: "I would like to form a team to get as much new information about where did the Warsaw Jews go from July 22nd - September 21st 1942 . . ." He chose this time frame because it was during the height of Treblinka's operation and all he'd been able to muster in reality had been small-scale transfers from Treblinka to labor camps in 1943, already known and discussed in a postwar trial and by historians. Hunt knew that if he couldn't show transit east from Treblinka for the main deportations of Warsaw Jews, his resettlement claims were undone.

No one helped Hunt with his request. As a result, at some point Hunt took down his plea from the web.

Later he abandoned revisionism, unable to prove "transit" or resettlement.

But you are sticking with denial. So here's your chance to win Eric back and show us your evidence and explanation for "new information about where did the Warsaw Jews go from July 22nd - September 21st 1942 . . ."

We're all ears, Saggy.
 
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LeoMajor said:
BING!

http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

This provides details of numerous graves in the area of the Chelmno extermination camp that were subjected to invasive archaeological examination that found evidence consistent with cremains.

How the phuck were you unaware of this?
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<SNIP>

(EDIT) Just for fun, let's add the requirement that one of the excavated bodies show signs of cyanide poisoning :)

(EDIT 2) For additional laughs, let's make it the BIGGEST excavated holohoax mass grave.

(EDIT 3) definition of grave: a hole dug in the ground to receive a coffin or dead body, typically marked by a stone or mound. 'Cremains' are a different subject, and would be buried in cremation pits I suppose. But be forewarned, cremation pits take us right to the absurdity of Aktion 1005.

Edited by Locknar: 
SNIP'ed; issuing "warnings" to fellow members is hardly civil - please do not do so again.
 
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Saggy said:
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(EDIT) Just for fun, let's add the requirement that one of the excavated bodies show signs of cyanide poisoning :)

(EDIT 2) For additional laughs, let's make it the BIGGEST excavated holohoax mass grave.

(EDIT 3) definition of grave: a hole dug in the ground to receive a coffin or dead body, typically marked by a stone or mound. 'Cremains' are a different subject, and would be buried in cremation pits I suppose. But be forewarned, cremation pits take us right to the absurdity of Aktion 1005.
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Hey saggy, did you read that Wikipedia link I sent you earlier? Did it help? Let me know, thanks.
 
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Saggy said:
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(EDIT) Just for fun, let's add the requirement that one of the excavated bodies show signs of cyanide poisoning :)

(EDIT 2) For additional laughs, let's make it the BIGGEST excavated holohoax mass grave.

(EDIT 3) definition of grave: a hole dug in the ground to receive a coffin or dead body, typically marked by a stone or mound. 'Cremains' are a different subject, and would be buried in cremation pits I suppose. But be forewarned, cremation pits take us right to the absurdity of Aktion 1005.
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Well Saggy, I feel compelled to post links to two of my previous posts as you have clearly missed them or, more probably, did not even bother to read and understand their content:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11945530&postcount=2957

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11945549&postcount=2958

As I explained there are hundreds of mass graves found and identified in Ukraine, Poland, Belarus and Russia. And even more testimonies who proves these mass graves contain the remains of Jews killed by nazi Einsatzgruppen between June 1941 and 1944. Not all Hews were gassed and you know it really well even if you do not want to admits well established and proven historical facts.
 
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Why not CO? Why nothing discussed by Muehkenkamp? Saggy is well and truly spooked by Muehlenkamp!
 
But honestly LeoMajor asked Saggy a question and Saggy's response is to ask a different question and pile on restrictions and demands? Gimme a break dude.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Why not CO? Why nothing discussed by Muehkenkamp? Saggy is well and truly spooked by Muehlenkamp!
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If you want to debate Muehlenkamp you can go to CODOH and debate him directly. I myself would not waste my time reading that idiot, much less 'debating' him.
 
Saggy said:
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Moderated content removed.


(EDIT) Just for fun, let's add the requirement that one of the excavated bodies show signs of cyanide poisoning :)

(EDIT 2) For additional laughs, let's make it the BIGGEST excavated holohoax mass grave.

(EDIT 3) definition of grave: a hole dug in the ground to receive a coffin or dead body, typically marked by a stone or mound. 'Cremains' are a different subject, and would be buried in cremation pits I suppose. But be forewarned, cremation pits take us right to the absurdity of Aktion 1005.
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Forensic testing and archaeological excavations found large areas of cremated remains at the sites, so we are dealing with cremation pits.
 
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Why would we debate Muehlencamp? It's more fun to watch him torch the morons. CODOH is a cesspool.
BTW, do you actually believe that history records six million Jews were murdered in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms?
 
Saggy said:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cremains

Origin and Etymology of cremains
blend of cremated and remains
NEW!
First Known Use: 1947

How about that. I suspected as much.
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Oh for heavens sake! Surely, nobody can be this unable to understand what they are reading!

Do you really not understand that 1947 is THE FIRST USE OF THE WORD "CREMAINS"!!! It doesn't mean that cremated remains didn't exist before that!

FFS man, get a bloody grip!
 
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smartcooky said:
Oh for heavens sake! Surely, nobody can be this unable to understand what they are reading!

Do you really not understand that 1947 is THE FIRST USE OF THE WORD "CREMAINS"!!! It doesn't mean that cremated remains didn't exist before that!

FFS man, get a bloody grip!
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Yeah like wooden buildings or ships never caught fire with people inside.....Saggy really isn't trying very hard is he?

Oldest known cremation 40,000 years

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2003/02/20/788032.htm

mungoman1.jpg
 
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Saggy said:
If you want to debate Muehlenkamp you can go to CODOH and debate him directly. I myself would not waste my time reading that idiot, much less 'debating' him.
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Once again you failed to answer what you were asked.

First question: Why Zyklon B and not CO? Reason: more than 1/2 the gassing victims during the Holocaust died from CO yet you exclude that cause of death. You thereby exclude over half the gassings. A little bogus, eh?

Second question: Why doesn't anything Muehlenkamp has found count? You know well that Muehlenkamp has studied this matter - he clearly terrifies you - and excluding his findings is also therefore bogus.

In addition, you now suggest I want to debate Muehlenkamp. Wot?
 
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