General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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LemmyCaution said:
Utter BS. Here is one member of the "holohoax establishment" writing about Zisblatt: "
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It's good to see that the holohoax community has a sense of humor, calling HC Polish guest blogger (on a Muehlenkamp blog no less) Joachim Neander, PhD, independent scholar, a member of the holohoax establishment.

Irene Zizblatt, holohoax witness promoted by the entire holohoax establishment



Here is the reality, the absurd lies of Irene Zizblatt carry the full authority of Steven Spielberg, the Academy Awards, the rabbis and holohoax scholars that vetted the movie and that were listed in the credits, plus every Jew, rabbi, academic, and government official in the US, none of which exposed the obvious blatant preposterous and degenerate lies of Zizblatt. If I'm wrong name the member of USHMM, Yad Vashem, a US university, the US govt, and rabbi in the US, that has denounced the absurdities of Speilberg's movie.

The holohoax is not what didn't happen in WW II, the holohoax is the lies that are being told now, by every Jew in the US and the world and every member of every news and academic organization and government in the US, either actively by repeating the lies or passively by not exposing them. It is real. Here is the proof.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80GgRWuXcO8"]The Last Days of the Big Lie

RHL74xw.png
 
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There is more ...

gNtzKwF.jpg


Zizblatt's lies are prima facie preposterous and degenerate. Spielberg had 50,000 testimonies to choose from.

Why did he choose Zizblatt?

I of course have a theory.
 
Saggy said:
There is more ...

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/gNtzKwF.jpg[/qimg]

Zizblatt's lies are prima facie preposterous and degenerate. Spielberg had 50,000 testimonies to choose from.

Why did he choose Zizblatt?

I of course have a theory.
Click to expand...

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe that history records six million Jews died in gas chambers disguised as showers?
 
Saggy said:
It's good to see that the holohoax community has a sense of humor, calling HC Polish guest blogger (on a Muehlenkamp blog no less) Joachim Neander, PhD, independent scholar, a member of the holohoax establishment. . . .
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Your post makes no sense and adds nothing to the discussion.
 
Saggy said:
There is more ...

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/gNtzKwF.jpg[/qimg]

Zizblatt's lies are prima facie preposterous and degenerate. Spielberg had 50,000 testimonies to choose from.

Why did he choose Zizblatt?

I of course have a theory.
Click to expand...
Who cares about Spielberg's choices, as you describe them, or your game of hide and seek? We're waiting for your replies to so many questions, yet you want to review Zisblatt, whose life story I've never seen cited in a single study of the period - except to, as Neander did, critique it.
 
Saggy said:
There is more ...

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/gNtzKwF.jpg[/qimg]

Zizblatt's lies are prima facie preposterous and degenerate. Spielberg had 50,000 testimonies to choose from.

Why did he choose Zizblatt?

I of course have a theory.
Click to expand...



Saggy, I honestly don't care what Irene Zisblatt said. I prefer to look at what Germans wrote and said, eyewitnesses know only what they saw by accident or what they were allowed to see. Eyewitnesses only fill in the blanks, they can't tell us everything.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Nor Spielberg, frankly. What matters is the evidence for the Holocaust, as you say, not what a movie-producer trying to do good thinks about it.
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The topic, i.e. this topic, is not evidence for the holocaust, for which there is no evidence as it did not happen.

This topic is evidence for the holohoax, that is, the massive systematic campaign of lies about the holocaust, for which there is unlimited evidence, and Spielberg's movie is a prime example.

HTH

If you would like to introduce a separate topic - evidence for the holocaust, please feel free to do so. It will be a real challenge for you.
 
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Saggy said:
The topic, i.e. this topic, is not evidence for the holocaust, for which there is no evidence as it did not happen.
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Except we keep posting evidence for it, you keep trying to change the subject, as you are now doing again. This flailing about with your anti-Semitic wand doesn't erase the evidence we've presented and know about.

We at least agree that the topic "evidence for the Holocaust" is a bad one for you, which is why you avoid discussion of it. Let's try Babi Yar. Here's a list of pieces of evidence for the mass murder there, borrowed from Nick Terry, who compiled this list in 2012 and noted at the time that there are over 60 contemporary sources on the Babi Yar massacre, excluding hearsay reports compiled by the Abwehr and Polish underground (we can do Ponary, Warsaw, and Chełmno after you've tried waving your wand at the Babi Yar sources):
RSHA Sources

1. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 97, 28.9.41 - planning of action

2. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 101, 2.10.41 - carrying out of action, brief reference

3. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 106, 7.10.41 - carrying out of action, more extensive report

4. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 111, 12.10.41 - SK4a bodycount reached more than 51,000, referring back to action

5. Taetigkeits- und Lagebericht der Einsatzgruppen Nr 6, covering 1-31.10.41 - repeating details from the Ereignismeldungen

Foreign Office Sources

6. Summary of TuLBs by Undersecretary of State Martin Luther of Foreign Office, cited by Browning/Origins of the Final Solution, p.204

HSSPF Russland-Sued Sources

7. HSSPF Russland-Sued, Lagebericht, 28.9.41, Military History Archive Prague, Kommandostab RFSS files - "Pol.Rgt. Sued Saeuberungsaktion und Absperrdienst in Kiew"

8. HSSPF Russland-Sued, Lagebericht, 30.9.41, Military Historical Archive Prague, Kommandostab RFSS files - "Pol.Rgt.Sued weiterhin Sicherungsdienst in Kiew und Durchfuehrung von Aktionen nach Kriegsbrauch"

Wehrmacht Sources

9. Report of Oberst Erwin Stolze of the Abwehr, 23.10.41, NOKW-3147, referring to massacre of Jews at Kiev and transmission of information by Hauptmann Hans Koch, liaison officer of the Ostministerium to Army Group South, as well as questioning of Koch by foreign journalists visiting Kiev in October 1941.

10. Report of Hauptmann Hans Koch, liaison officer of the Ostministerium to Army Group South, 5.10.41, regarding situation in Kiev, describes massacre, 053-PS, original in GARF 7445-2-138

11. Propagandakompanie (mot) 637, Taetigkeitsbericht fuer den 25. und 26. September 1941 - printing up of 2000 placards ordering Jews "sich an einem bestimmten Ort zu melden" - BA-MA RH20-6/492, p.18, facsimiled in Verbrechen der Wehrmacht, p.162

12. Besondere Anordnungen fuer die Versorgung, Versorgungsbezirk Sued, Nr 132, 27.9.41, BA-MA RH3/v.174, supply of 100,000 rounds of ammunition to HSSPF Russland-Sued

13. 113. Infanteriedivision Ic, entries in activity report of 27.9.1941 and 3.10.1941, BA Ludwigsburg Dok-Sammlung Verschiedenes IX, p.58ff; reports noting tasking of pioneer battalion to blow up ravine sides over the grave

14. 454. Sicherungsdivision Abt VII, Taetigkeitsbericht 1-10.10.41, NOKW-2129 and BA-MA RH26-454/28, referring to massacre, preparations and aftermath

15. Armeeoberkommando 6 Ic/AO, Taetigkeitsbericht, 3.10.41, BA-MA RH20-6/493, p.240, meetings with SK4a officers

16. Propagandakompanie (mot) 637 an AOK 6, 10.11.41, BA-MA RH20-6/494, p.215ff, notifying army of photos taken by command, including photo of town commandant Eberhard with HSSPF Russland-Sued Friedrich Jeckeln in Kiev, interesting partial corroboration of Ereignismeldungen detail of meetings between Jeckeln, Rasch, Blobel and Eberhard

17. Reichenau Order of 10 October 1941, issued by commander of 6th Army, explicitly exhorting soldiers to have full understanding of the harsh measures against Jews in his sector

18. “In Kiev,” Cpl. LB wrote on September 28, “mines explode one after the other. For eight days now the city is on fire and all of it is the Jews’ doing. Therefore all Jews aged 14 to 60 have been shot and the Jewish women will also be shot, otherwise there will be no end to it.” - quoted in Saul Friedlander, The Years of Exetermination, p.293, from published field post letters of German soldiers.

Collaborator Sources/in Ukrainian Language

19. Placard ordering Jews to gather on 28 September 1941

20. Ukrainian Police commander of Kiev, Order No 5, n.d, after 29.9.41, TsADAHOU 1-23-121, p.6, reproduced in Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europaeischen Juden Bd.7, pp.304-5, ordering all house block administrators to report any Jews to the nearest police station

21. Ukrains'ke Slovo, Nr 29, 10.10.41, p.4, ordinance of town administration of Kiev of same date, reproduced in Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europaeischen Juden Bd.7, pp.314-5, ordering that property of Jews be gathered by commissions

Soviet sources

22. Diary of teacher L. Nartova, TsADAHOU 1-22-347, pp.1-3, reproduced in Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europaeischen Juden Bd.7, p.296

23. Diary of Irina Chorosunova, published in Erhard Wiehn (ed), Die Schoah von Babij Jar, p.292ff

24. Joint report by 18th and 8th Soviet Armies to Political Administration of the Southern Front, 15 January 1942, TsADAHOU 62-9-4. pp.149-155, reproduced in Verfolgung und Ermordung Bd 7, pp.415-9, describing massacre based on eyewitness testimonies of escaped prisoners, noting 'active support of Black Hundreds and Ukrainian nationalists' (i.e. collaborators)

Neutral Sources

25. Aussage eines Wehrmachtdeserteurs, verhoert durch den Einvernahmeoffizier 'Schangau' am 26.2.42, Swiss EMD E27, Dossier 8430, reproduced in Verfolgung und Ermordung Bd 7, pp.441-3, detailed description of Zhitomir action carried out by SK4a, hearsay about action at Kiev

26. Bericht aus Deutschland, November 1941, received by Swiss Bundesanwaltschaft on 13.12.41, BAr Akten der Bundesanwaltschaft E 4320 (B) 1968/195; C.2.8, more hearsay

27. Bericht 8548/d. 444, March 1942, in EMD E 27, 9228, Bd.3, Luftwaffe deserter (Stuka pilot), reporting murder of 40 000 Jews, 'Abmarsch in die Sandgruben: Erschossen. Waende der Sandgruben gesprengt, sodass Massengraeber entstanden'. Interesting knowledge of exact details.

Photographic Sources

28-56: Johannes Haehle's photos

57: German soldiers with clothing, 29.9.41, from BY massacre, different photograher - ЦДКФФАУ, од. зб. 0-11410.

58. German soldiers sorting clothing,29.9.41, from BY massacre, closer to ravine, different photographer - ЦДКФФАУ, од. зб. 0-11411.

I doubt the above is complete, because I've not bothered to look up the sources cited in 2 journal articles on the BY massacre and Wehrmacht complicity.

It doesn't include the hundreds of witness testimonies gathered in about a dozen West German investigations into Sonderkommando 4a, Pol.Btl 45, Pol.Btl. 303, and Sonderkommando 1005, and in at least five Soviet investigations (post-liberation, Kiev trial in 1945, a 1950 investigation, a 1960s one, and one in 1980).

Nor does it include the fact that news of the massacre leaked to the outside world within 2 months. But let's add a few of those, since these reports leaked in multiple directions and cannot be traced back to a single source.

Contemporary Newspaper Reports

59. Krakiwski Wisti, Ukrainian collaborator paper in Cracow, reported by Jewish Telegraphic Agency on 21 October 1941 (dateline London 20 October 1941) saying that the Jews had been driven out of Kiev, 'the last Jew was expelled from Kiev on September 29'.

60. Fred Oechsner, United Press Bureau chief in Berlin, New York Herald Tribune article of 29 October 1941, reporting German sources about liquidations of Jews in Kiev, Zhitomir, Cherson, also noting that 'the Ukrainians took care of matters'.

60a. Neue Zuercher Zeitung, 30 October 1941, 'Eindruecke aus Odessa', reprint of report of United Press correspondent travelling over Ukraine: 'Im Laufe unserer Reise hoerten wir oft von deutschen und rumaenischer Seite von summarischer Behandlung der Juden in Kiew, Shitomir, Cherson und anderen Orten, und die Deutschen erzaehlten haeufig, dass die Ukrainer selber die Sache in die Hand genommen haetten'.

61. Felice Bellotti, “Le mine ‘assassine’ di Kiev,” La Stampa (Turin), October 31, 1941, p. 3 - Italian journalist visiting Kiev in October 1941 on the same tour, told by city administration that all the Jews had gone, and wondered where. See here for more. The 30 journalists taken to Kiev also asked Hauptmann Koch about the massacre, see document 9 listed above.

61a. By contrast, the remarks by the city administration were not mentioned in Alex Small, “Ruins of 5 Day Blaze – Kiev’s War Reminder,” Chicago Daily Tribune, October 23, 1941, p. 1.

62. Jewish Telegraphic Agency report of 16 November 1941 about massacre of 52,000 Jews in Kiev

62a. Pravda and Izvestiia, 19 November 1941, reporting massacre of 52,000 Jews in Kiev, repeated in Pravda, 29 November 1941. Counted as same root source - JTA correspondent probably learned the information from same informant in Kuibyshev/Moscow, but was able to publish.

63. JTA report of Russian eyewitness who had escaped across Soviet lines, confirming massacre, 28 August 1942.
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How many of these sources have you studied?
Saggy said:
This topic is evidence for the holohoax
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Which you've been asked for, as recently as this post, and refused to answer: we have begged you for evidence of this hoax you keep whining about but never demonstrating or supporting with evidence.

Sorry, this is the forum's thread for Holocaust-related discussion. If you're afraid to tackle the hard questions, that's your problem, but you don't decide what we discuss in this thread, you do decide what you're unable to discuss and so must avoid, which is, er, evidence for the mass murder of Jews during WWII.

Saggy said:
If you would like to introduce a separate topic - evidence for the holocaust, please feel free to do so. It will be a real challenge for you.
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Introducing evidence for the Holocaust is so easy that it's been done repeatedly in this thread, and I just did it above. Let's hear your assessment of the sources for the mass murder at Babi Yar.
 
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LemmyCaution said:
Introducing evidence for the Holocaust is so easy that it's been done repeatedly in this thread, and I just did it above. Let's hear your assessment of the sources for the mass murder at Babi Yar.
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I'm not looking for a list of twenty links, I'm looking for you to discuss evidence for the holocaust yourself, providing links as appropriate. Now, it just so happens that Babi Yar is one of my favorite topics, as it is covered here ...

holohoax101.org

So, I'd be happy for you to present the evidence for it. Not a list of links, your discussion of the evidence, and then I'll respond. Sabe'?

What I'm afraid of? I'm afraid the insane aggression of the US/Israeli military will initiate WW III.
 
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Saggy said:
The NKVD from the beginning was a Jewish dominated organization...
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Is there no human evil that doesn't have its roots in the diaspora?

What is immensely amusing to me is that there doesn't seem to be a single holocaust denier who sticks to the denial of the evidence. To a man, every one of them eventually, but usually sonner rather than later, veers off into accusing the Jews of weaving an elaborate and international lie that no one save for the few who comprise their own numbers have unraveled, and most, but not all, openly admit that though the holocaust didn't happen, it was entirely deserved.

That reminds me of so many political debates where we are told in the same breath that the event under discussion didn't occur, but that even if it did occur, it's not illegal, or that it is entirely understandable, or justified, or whatever other excuse is trotted out. It's a very clear indication that the person knows that the event both occured and is wrong, but is lacks confidence in either excuse, instead opting to combine them, and thus revealing their true thoughts on the subject.

In other words, saggy, I think you know for a fact that the holocaust both happened and is one of the greatest evils of recent history, but that you are too cowardly to clearly admit that you fully agree with it and its criminal perpetrators.
 
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Saggy, here's another look at evidence for the Holocaust, a broad list of recent publications with the number of citations in each:
Nick Terry said:
That list more than doubled in size. It's not a comprehensive bibliography, there are many more titles that are not included, I just add to the list because it amuses me to see how many footnotes and endnotes accumulate when one counts them up.

The assumptions are
1) many sources are repeated across the 348 books and their 449,375 footnotes and endnotes, but if they are repeated, then they're more important
2) the literature is so specialised and focused on different camps and regions that the overlap between a book on Lithuania and a book on Auschwitz is marginal, therefore despite repeated citations of some sources like the Wannsee protocol, the 448,375 footnotes and endnotes cite a huge range of evidence, running into 100s of 1000s of sources, covering all aspects of the persecution and mass murder of the Jews from 1933 to 1945.

  1. Poliakov, Harvest of Hate 1951 481 notes
  2. Reitlinger, The Final Solution 1953 1660 notes
  3. Hilberg, Destruction (1961 1st edition) 1961 3413 notes
  4. Levin, The Holocaust 1970 693 notes
  5. Dawidowicz, War Against the Jews 1975 598 notes
  6. Hilberg, Destruction (1985 2nd edition) 1985 4329 notes
  7. Gilbert, The Holocaust 1986 2097 notes
  8. Yahil, The Holocaust 1990 1784 notes
  9. Friedlander, Years of Persecution 1997 1147 notes
  10. Hilberg, Destruction (3rd edition) 2003 4711 notes
  11. Friedlander, Years of Extermination 2006/7 2431 notes
  12. Bloxham, The Final Solution 2009 557 notes
  13. Longerich, Holocaust 2010 2263 notes
  14. Goda, The Holocaust: Europe, the Jews and the World 2013 1440 notes
  15. Cesarani, Final Solution 2016 1604 notes
  16. Gerlach, The Extermination of the European Jews 2016 2404 notes
  17. Rees,The Holocaust: A New History 2017 1176 notes
  18. Black, Kaltenbrunner 1984 717 notes
  19. Reuth, Goebbels 1990 (2013) 3157 notes
  20. Breitman, The Architect of Genocide 1991 936 notes
  21. Herbert, Best 2001 1426 notes
  22. Barth, Goebbels und die Juden 2003 1347 notes
  23. Longerich, Himmler 2008 (2012) 3509 notes
  24. Husson, Heydrich et la solution finale 2008/2012 1331 notes
  25. Zelle, Hitlers zweifelnde Elite 2010 1192 notes
  26. Gerwarth, Hitler’s Hangman 2011 1208 notes
  27. Longerich, Goebbels: A Biography 2012 (2015) 4235 notes
  28. Roos, Julius Streicher und Der Stürmer 2014 2465 notes
  29. Longerich, Hitler: Biographie 2015 4800 notes
  30. Kaplan, Between Dignity and Despair 1998 539 notes
  31. Wildt, Hitler’s Volksgemeinschaft 2007 (2011) 858 notes
  32. Steinweis, Kristallnacht 2009 411 notes
  33. Trunk, Judenrat (English) 1972 2029 notes
  34. Corni, Hitler’s Ghettos 2002 2162 notes
  35. Michman, The Emergence of Jewish Ghettos During the Holocaust 2011 392 notes
  36. Kogon et al, Nazi Mass Murder with Poison Gas 1983 551 notes
  37. Schneppen, Walter Rauff 2011 411 notes
  38. Morsch/Perz (eds), Neue Studien 2011 1249 notes
  39. Adam, Judenpolitik im Dritten Reich 1972 1834 notes
  40. Friedman, Roads to Extinction 1980 1174 notes
  41. L’Allemagne nazie et le genocide juif 1985 1408 notes
  42. Jäckel/Rohwehr (eds), Der Mord an den europäischen Juden 1985 321 notes
  43. Benz (ed), Dimension des Völkermordes 1991 2703 notes
  44. Aly/Heim, Architects of Annihilation 1991 (2002) 987 notes
  45. Cesarani (ed) The Final Solution 1994 850 notes
  46. Aly, Final Solution 1995 982 notes
  47. Manoschek, “Serbien ist judenfrei” 1995 791 notes
  48. Jansen, Der Madagaskar Plan 1997 833 notes
  49. Brechtken, “Madagaskar für die Juden” 1998 1316 notes
  50. Berenbaum/Peck (eds), The Holocaust and History 1998 2036 notes
  51. Herbert (ed), National Socialist Extermination Policies 1998/2000 817 notes
  52. Browning, Nazi Policy, Jewish Workers, German Killers 2000 586 notes
  53. Longerich, The Unwritten Order 2001 456 notes
  54. Wildt, An Uncompromising Generation 2002 2389 notes
  55. Essner, Nürnberger Gesetze 2002 1749 notes
  56. Bankier/Gutman (eds), Nazi Europe and the Final Solution 2003 1205 notes
  57. Roseman, The Villa, The Lake, The Meeting 2003 357 notes
  58. Browning, Origins of the Final Solution 2004 1853 notes
  59. Brayard, La “solution finale de la question juive” 2004 2434 notes
  60. Aly, Hitler’s Beneficiaries 2005 997 notes
  61. Cüppers, Wegbereiter des Shoahs 2005 1719 notes
  62. Westermann, Hitler’s Police Battalions 2005 1166 notes
  63. Klemp, Nicht ermittelt 2005/2011 1497 notes
  64. Welzer, Täter 2005 569 notes
  65. Zimmermann (ed), On Germans and Jews under the Nazi Regime 2006 886 notes
  66. Gruner, Jewish Forced Labor under the Nazis 2006 1290 notes
  67. Tooze, Wages of Destruction 2006 2088 notes
  68. Berkowitz, The Crime of My Very Existence 2007 820 notes
  69. Dean, Robbing the Jews 2008 1429 notes
  70. Hoffmann, ‘Das kann man nicht erzählen’ (1005) 2008 1135 notes
  71. Gigliotti, The Train Journey 2009 634 notes
  72. Ingrao, Believe and Destroy 2010 (2013) 1179 notes
  73. Brayard, Auschwitz, enquête sur un complot nazi 2012 1198 notes
  74. Kampe/Klein (eds), Die Wannsee-Konferenz 2013 1150 notes
  75. Confino, A World Without Jews 2014 418 notes
  76. Longerich, Wannseekonferenz 2016 389 notes
  77. Taft, From Victim to Survivor 2013 714 notes
  78. Michman, Holocaust Historiography 2003 1177 notes
  79. Stone (ed), The Historiography of the Holocaust 2004 1822 notes
  80. Bankier/Michman (eds), Holocaust Historiography in Context 2008 1284 notes
  81. Engel, Historians of the Jews and the Holocaust 2009 916 notes
  82. Lawson, Debates on the Holocaust 2010 953 notes
  83. Stone, Histories of the Holocaust 2010 926 notes
  84. Stone (ed), The Holocaust and Historical Methodology 2013 865 notes
  85. Feingold, The Politics of Rescue 1970 966 notes
  86. Wasserstein, Britain and the Jews of Europe 1979 1135 notes
  87. Laqueur, The Terrible Secret 1980 280 notes
  88. Ross, So It Was True 1980 752 notes
  89. Bauer, American Jewry and the Holocaust 1981 739 notes
  90. Penkower, The Jews Were Expendable 1983 770 notes
  91. Wyman, The Abandonment of the Jews 1984 1281 notes
  92. Lookstein, Were We Our Brothers’ Keepers? 1985 623 notes
  93. Lipstadt, Beyond Belief 1986 879 notes
  94. Porat, The Blue and Yellow Stars of David 1986 (1990) 538 notes
  95. Engel, In the Shadow of Auschwitz 1987 911 notes
  96. Koblik, The Stones Cry Out 1988 306 notes
  97. Favez, The Red Cross and the Holocaust 1988 (1999) 565 notes
  98. Ofer, Escaping the Holocaust 1988 (1990) 868 notes
  99. Kushner, The Holocaust and the Liberal Imagination 1990 750 notes
  100. Bankier, The Germans and the Final Solution 1992 609 notes
  101. Bolchover, British Jewry and the Holocaust 1993 (2003) 635 notes
  102. Engel, Facing a Holocaust 1993 903 notes
  103. Haas, Wenn mann gewusst hätte 1994 (1997) 593 notes
  104. Feingold, Bearing Witness to the Holocaust 1995 482 notes
  105. Stola, Nadzieja i zaglada 1995 1140 notes
  106. Levine, From Indifference to Activism 1996 (1998) 859 notes
  107. Rubinstein, The Myth of Rescue 1997 (2000) 626 notes
  108. Friling, Arrows in the Dark 1998 (2005) 2047 notes
  109. Breitman, Official Secrets 1998 752 notes
  110. Sompolinsky, Britain and the Holocaust 1999 988 notes
  111. Phayer, The Catholic Church and the Holocaust 2000 969 notes
  112. London, Whitehall and the Jews 2000 925 notes
  113. Penkower, Decision on Palestine Deferred 2002 620 notes
  114. Zuccotti, Under His Very Windows 2002 1061 notes
  115. Leff, Buried By The Times 2005 876 notes
  116. Mächler, Hilfe und Ohnmacht 2005 608 notes
  117. Herf, The Jewish Enemy 2006 842 notes
  118. Bankier (ed), Secret Intelligence and the Holocaust 2006 789 notes
  119. Longerich, ‘Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!’ 2006 1233 notes
  120. Bajohr/Pohl, Massenmord und schlechtes Gewissen 2006 306 notes
  121. Dörner, Die Deutschen und der Holocaust 2007 2265 notes
  122. Hamerow, Why We Watched 2008 442 notes
  123. Puławski, W obliczu Zagłady 2009 2386 notes
  124. Caestecker/Moore (eds), Refugees from Nazi Germany 2010 995 notes
  125. Cohen, Rescue the Perishing 2010 1029 notes
  126. Plesch, America, Hitler and the UN 2011 383 notes
  127. Hurwitz, Jews Without Power 2011 (2015) 1053 notes
  128. Berkhoff, Motherland in Danger 2012 955 notes
  129. Wallance, America’s Soul in the Balance 2012 482 notes
  130. Gorny, The Jewish Press and the Holocaust 2012 624 notes
  131. Lanicek, Czechs, Slovaks and the Jews 2013 1145 notes
  132. Lanicek/Jordan (eds), Governments-in-Exile and the Jews 2013 650 notes
  133. Breitman/Lichtman, FDR and the Jews 2013 868 notes
  134. Medoff, FDR and the Holocaust 2013 314 notes
  135. Segev, World Jewish Congress and Holocaust 2014 474 notes
  136. Medoff, The Anguish of a Jewish Leader 2015 336 notes
  137. Zimmerman, Polish Underground and the Jews 2015 2067 notes
  138. Bloxham, Genocide on Trial 2001 989 notes
  139. Douglas, The Memory of Judgment 2001 465 notes
  140. Weinke, Die Verfolgung von NS-Tätern im geteilten Deutschland 2002 1499 notes
  141. Weindling, Nazi Medicine and the Nuremberg Trials 2004 2189 notes
  142. Hasian, Rhetorical Vectors of Memory 2006 986 notes
  143. Heberer/Matthäus (eds), Atrocities on Trial 2008 886 notes
  144. Weinke, Eine Gesellschaft ermittelt gegen sich selbst 2008 728 notes
  145. Hebert, Hitler’s Generals on Trial 2010 870 notes
  146. Segev, Simon Wiesenthal 2010 1026 notes
  147. Heller, The Nuremberg Military Tribunals 2011 2400 notes
  148. Eichmüller, Keine Generalamnestie 2012 1352 notes
  149. Raim, Justiz zwischen Diktatur und Demokratie 2013 5422 notes
  150. Tisseron, La France et le process de Nuremberg 2014 749 notes
  151. Jockusch/Finder (eds), Jewish Honor Courts 2015 1107 notes
  152. Klee, “Euthanasie” im NS-Staat 1983 1606 notes
  153. Burleigh, Death and Deliverance 1994 972 notes
  154. Friedlander, The Origins of Nazi Genocide 1995 1745 notes
  155. Schmidt, Karl Brandt: The Nazi Doctor 2007 1955 notes
  156. Aly, Die Belasteten 2013 454 notes
  157. Streit, Keine Kameraden 1978/1991 1780 notes
  158. Cholawsky, The Jews of Bielorussia during World War II 1982 (1998) 576 notes
  159. Krausnick/Wilhelm, Truppen des Weltanschauungskrieges 1981 2107 notes
  160. Heer/Naumann (eds), Vernichtungskrieg 1995 1482 notes
  161. Manoschek (ed), Die Wehrmacht im Rassenkrieg 1996 412 notes
  162. Ogorreck, Die Einsatzgruppen und die ‘Genesis der Endlösung’ 1996 780 notes
  163. Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde 1999 6309 notes
  164. Dean, Collaboration in the Holocaust 2000 1019 notes
  165. Angrick, Besatzungspolitik und Massenmord 2003 1933 notes
  166. Berkhoff, Harvest of Despair 2004 1620 notes
  167. Shepherd, War in the Wild East 2004 704 notes
  168. Oldenburg, Ideologie und militärische Kalkül 2004 1299 notes
  169. Kugler, Scherwitz 2004 908 notes
  170. Kruglov, The Losses Suffered by Ukrainian Jews 2005 1508 notes
  171. Lower, Nazi Empire-Building 2005 756 notes
  172. Curilla, Die deutsche Ordnungspolizei und der Holocaust 2006 8270 notes
  173. Angrick/Klein, The “Final Solution” in Riga 2006 1282 notes
  174. Kay, Exploitation, Resettlement, Mass Murder 2006 953 notes
  175. Wrochem, von, Erich von Manstein: Vernichtungskrieg… 2006 (2009) 1795 notes
  176. Huerter, Hitlers Heerfuehrer 2007 2594 notes
  177. Pohl, Die Herrschaft der Wehrmacht 2008 1404 notes
  178. Brandon/Lower (eds), The Shoah in Ukraine 2008 1105 notes
  179. Epstein, The Minsk Ghetto 2008 389 notes
  180. Arad, Holocaust in the Soviet Union 2009 1747 notes
  181. Weiss-Wendt, Murder Without Hatred 2009 1339 notes
  182. Schneppen, Ghettokommandant in Riga 2009 836 notes
  183. Bauer, The Death of the Shtetl 2009 328 notes
  184. Earl, The Nuremberg SS-Einsatzgruppen Trial 2009 1352 notes
  185. Hartmann, Wehrmacht im Ostkrieg 2009 4871 notes
  186. Brakel, Unter Rotem Stern und Hakenkreuz 2009 2020 notes
  187. Quinkert, Propaganda und Terror 2009 1920 notes
  188. Hasenclever, Wehrmacht und Besatzungspolitik 2010 3107 notes
  189. Dieckmann, Deutsche Besatzungspolitik in Litauen 2011 6712 notes
  190. Reichelt, Lettland unter deutscher Besatzung 1941-1944 2011 1270 notes
  191. Rentrop, Tatorte der ‘Endloesung’ 2011 969 notes
  192. Rein, The Kings and the Pawns 2011 1472 notes
  193. Wette, Karl Jäger 2011 586 notes
  194. Christ, Die Dynamik des Tötens 2011 616 notes
  195. Kilian, Wehrmacht und Besatzungsherrschaft im Nordwesten 2012 2854 notes
  196. Plath, Zwischen Schonung und Menschenjagd 2012 1786 notes
  197. Kay/Rutherford/Stahel (eds), Nazi Policy on the Eastern Front, 1941 2012 1053 notes
  198. Burds, The Holocaust in Rovno 2013 222 notes
  199. Pieper, Fegelein’s Horsemen 2014 811 notes
  200. Tauber, Arbeit als Hoffnung: Jüdische Ghettos in Litauen 1941-1944 2015 3020 notes
  201. Kay, The Making of an SS Killer 2016 896 notes
  202. Ioanid, The Holocaust in Romania 2000 1378 notes
  203. Solonari, Purifying the Nation 2010 1268 notes
  204. Baum, Varianten des Terrors 2011 2595 notes
  205. Ancel, The History of the Holocaust in Romania 2011 1909 notes
  206. Steinhart, The Holocaust and the Germanization of Ukraine 2015 933 notes
  207. Dumitru, The state, antisemitism and collaboration in the Holocaust 2016 1019 notes
  208. Trunk, Łódź Ghetto: A History 1962 (2006) 1321 notes
  209. Krakowski, Chelmno 2001 459 notes
  210. Ziołkowska, Obozy pracy przymusowej 2005 746 notes
  211. Alberti, Verfolgung und Vernichtung 2006 1866 notes
  212. Löw, Juden im Getto Litzmannstadt 2006 1735 notes
  213. Horwitz, Ghettostadt 2008 888 notes
  214. Klein, Gettoverwaltung Litzmannstadt 2009 1635 notes
  215. Epstein, Model Nazi 2010 1907 notes
  216. Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust 2011 675 notes
  217. Gutman, The Jews of Warsaw 1982 698 notes
  218. Paulsson, Secret City 2002 547 notes
  219. Levin, Walls Around 2003 (2004) 411 notes
  220. Kassow, Who Will Write Our History? 2007 1193 notes
  221. Engelking/Leociak (eds), Prowincja noc 2007 1986 notes
  222. Libionka/Weinbaum, Bohaterowie, hochsztaplerzy, opisywacze 2011 1512 notes
  223. Klemp, Vernichtung 2013 590 notes
  224. Roth/Schmidt, Judenmord in Ostrów Mazowiecka 2013 332 notes
  225. Seidel, Deutsche Besatzungspolitik in Polen 2006 2032 notes
  226. Mlynarczyk, Judenmord in Zentralpolen 2007 1338 notes
  227. Browning, Remembering Survival 2010 1449 notes
  228. Crowe, Oskar Schindler 2004 1836 notes
  229. Grabowski, Hunt for the Jews 2011 (2013) 505 notes
  230. Hembera, Die Shoah im Distrikt Krakau (Tarnow) 2016 1548 notes
  231. Browning, Ordinary Men 1992 511 notes
  232. Pohl, Von der “Judenpolitik” zum Judenmord 1993 863 notes
  233. Musial, Deutsche Zivilverwaltung und Judenverfolgung 1999 1384 notes
  234. Silberklang, Gates of Tears 2013 748 notes
  235. Pohl, Nationalsozialistische Judenverfolgung in Ostgalizien 1996 2153 notes
  236. Sandkühler, “Endlösung” in Galizien 1996 1050 notes
  237. Redlich, Together and Apart in Brzezany 2002 371 notes
  238. Bartov, Erased 2007 190 notes
  239. Struve, Deutsche Herrschaft 2015
  240. Bender, The Jews of Bialystok 1997 (2008) 1018 notes
  241. Gross, Neighbors 2000 (2001) 169 notes
  242. Zbikowski, U genezy Jedwabnego 2006 940 notes
  243. Schwindt, Majdanek 2005 1475 notes
  244. Mailander, Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence 2009 (2015) 1408 notes
  245. Lenarcyzk/Libionka (eds), Erntefest 2009 1518 notes
  246. Rossino, Hitler Strikes Poland 2003 1100 notes
  247. Böhler, Auftakt zum Vernichtungskrieg 2006 1110 notes
  248. Wardzyńska, Był rok 1939 2009 277 notes
  249. Majer, “Non-Germans” Under the Third Reich 1981 (2013) 3935 notes
  250. Krakowski, The War of the Doomed 1984 565 notes
  251. Arad, Belzec Sobibor Treblinka 1987 688 notes
  252. Tomaszewski/Werbowski, Code Name: Zegota 1994 (2010) 74 notes
  253. Schelvis, Sobibor 1998/2003 662 notes
  254. Housden, Hans Frank and Lebensraum 2003 1411 notes
  255. Poprzeczny, Hitler’s Man in the East: Odilo Globocnik 2004 463 notes
  256. Musial (ed), Aktion Reinhard 2004 1296 notes
  257. Jockheck, Propaganda im Generalgouvernement 2006 1116 notes
  258. Schenk, Hans Frank 2006 1442 notes
  259. Loose, Kredite für NS-Verbrechen 2007 2023 notes
  260. Rutherford, Prelude to the Final Solution 2007 744 notes
  261. Rieger, Creator of Nazi Death Camps 2007 551 notes
  262. Roth, Herrenmenschen 2009 1233 notes
  263. Kuwalek, Das Vernichtungslager Belzec 2011/2013 713 notes
  264. Curilla, Der Judenmord in Polen 2011 8405 notes
  265. Gross, Golden Harvest 2011 (2012) 180 notes
  266. Żbikowski, Karski 2011 375 notes
  267. Medykowski, W cieniu gigantow 2012 686 notes
  268. Berger, Experten der Vernichtung 2013 1698 notes
  269. Rashke, Useful Enemies 2013 542 notes
  270. Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide 2014 667 notes
  271. Benz, Handlager der SS 2015 1185 notes
  272. Browning, The Final Solution and the German Foreign Office 1978 811 notes
  273. Adler, The Jews of Paris and the Final Solution 1985 (1987) 924 notes
  274. Döscher, Das Auswärtige Amt im Dritten Reich 1987 1085 notes
  275. Steinberg, All or Nothing 1990 799 notes
  276. Mazower, Inside Hitler’s Greece 1993 807 notes
  277. Safrian, Eichmann’s Men 1993 (2010) 1109 notes
  278. Moore, Victims and Survivors 1997 914 notes
  279. Poznanski, Jews in France during World War II 1997 (2001) 2446 notes
  280. Lozowick, Hitler’s Bureaucrats 2000 (2002) 787 notes
  281. Rabinovici, Eichmann’s Jews 2000 (2011) 735 notes
  282. Yablonka, The State of Israel vs Adolf Eichmann 2001 (2004) 843 notes
  283. Lafitte, Un engrenage fatal 2003 913 notes
  284. Cesarani, Eichmann 2004 1024 notes
  285. Brunner, Die Frankreich-Komplex 2004 1257 notes
  286. Meyer, Täter im Verhör 2005 1,599 notes
  287. Rothkirchen, The Jews of Bohemia & Moravia 2005 1440 notes
  288. Weitkamp, Braune Diplomaten 2008 2112 notes
  289. Bowman, The Agony of Greek Jewry 2009 760 notes
  290. Moore, Survivors 2010 1508 notes
  291. Meyer, Das Wissen um Auschwitz 2010 556 notes
  292. Seibel, Persecution and Rescue 2010 (2016) 944 notes
  293. Meyer, A Fatal Balancing Act 2011 (2013) 1513 notes
  294. Stangneth, Eichmann Before Jerusalem 2011 (2014) 1406 notes
  295. Fulbrook, A Small Town Near Auschwitz 2012 873 notes
  296. Wieviorka/Lafitte, A l’intérieur du camp de Drancy 2012 490 notes
  297. Ritz, Schreibtischtäter vor Gericht 2012 743 notes
  298. Meinen, Die Shoah in Belgien 2012 552 notes
  299. Meinen/Meyer, Verfolgt von Land zu Land 2013 660 notes
  300. Gruner, Die Judenverfolgung im Protektorat 2016 1823 notes
  301. Ben-Tov, Facing the Holocaust in Budapest 1988 690 notes
  302. Kranzler, The Man Who Stopped The Trains to Auschwitz 2000 864 notes
  303. Gerlach/Aly, Das letzte Kapitel 2002 1870 notes
  304. Cole, Holocaust City 2003 788 notes
  305. Levine, Raul Wallenberg in Budapest 2010 951 notes
  306. Bogdanor, Kasztner’s Crime 2016 790 notes
  307. Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz 1994 318 notes
  308. Gutman/Berenbaum (eds), Anatomy of the Auschwitz 1994 1160 notes
  309. Dlugoborski/Piper (eds), Auschwitz 1940-1945, 5 vols 1995/2000 3286 notes
  310. Dwork/Pelt, Auschwitz 1996 679 notes
  311. Wagner, IG Auschwitz 2000 1308 notes
  312. Steinbacher, ‘Musterstadt’ Auschwitz 2000 1632 notes
  313. Pelt, van, The Case for Auschwitz 2002 931 notes
  314. Friedler/Siebert/Kilian, Zeugen aus der Todeszone 2002 895 notes
  315. Zürcher, Wir machten die schwarzen Arbeit des Holocaust 2004 839 notes
  316. Pendas, The Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial 2006 1227 notes
  317. Dirks, “Die Verbrechen der anderen” 2006 1275 notes
  318. Knopp, Wir lebten mitten im Tod 2009 380 notes
  319. Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust 2010 1301 notes
  320. Lang, Die Frauen von Block 10 2011 713 notes
  321. Stengel, Hermann Langbein 2012 2219 notes
  322. Fleming, Auschwitz, The Allies and Censorship 2014 847 notes
  323. Greif/Levin, Aufstand in Auschwitz 2015 446 notes
  324. Dobosiewicz, Vernichtungslager Gusen 1977 (2007) 347 notes
  325. Pingel, Häftlinge unter SS-Herrschaft 1978 578 notes
  326. Orth, Das System der nationalsozialistischen KL 1999 1234 notes
  327. Wenck, Zwischen Menschenhandel und “Endlösung” 2000 1461 notes
  328. Schulte, Zwangsarbeit und Vernichtung 2001 1778 notes
  329. Allen, The Business of Genocide 2002 726 notes
  330. Strebel, Das KZ Ravensbrück 2003 2625 notes
  331. Kaienburg, Die Wirtschaft der SS 2003 3688 notes
  332. Steegman, Natzweiler 2005 (2010) 1985 notes
  333. Kaienburg, Der Militär- und Wirtschaftskomplex Oranienburg 2006 1208 notes
  334. Gutternan, A Narrow Bridge to Life 2008 725 notes
  335. Buggeln, Arbeit & Gewalt (translated as Slave Labor) 2009 1976 notes
  336. Caplan/Wachsmann (eds), Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany 2010 675 notes
  337. Blatman, The Death Marches 2011 1836 notes
  338. Weigelt, Judenmord im Reichsgebiet 2011 2388 notes
  339. Jardim, The Mauthausen Trial 2012 616 notes
  340. Adam, Die Arbeiterfrage soll mot Hilfe von KZ-Häftlingen gelöst w.. 2013 1890 notes
  341. Rudorff, Frauen in den Aussenlagern des KL Gross-Rosen 2014 1640 notes
  342. Scheck, Zwangsarbeit und Massensterben 2014 942 notes
  343. Weindling, Victims and Survivors of Nazi Human Expts 2015 1042 notes
  344. Pauer-Studer/Velleman, Konrad Morgen 2015 510 notes
  345. Wachsmann, KL 2015 3423 notes
  346. Wünschmann, Before Auschwitz 2015 1069 notes
  347. Stone, The Liberation of the Camps 2015 739 notes
  348. Hördler, Ordnung und Inferno 2015 2086 notes
  349. Dillon, Dachau and the SS 2015 1439 notes

(349 listed, 348 books and collections counted for notes; 215 in English) - 449,375 notes
Click to expand...
As you should recall, revisionist EtienneSC told us he'd read just 3 of the listed titles, which on its face disqualifies him as a "revisionist" of this scholarship. How many have you read - and, relevant to this particular discussion, what can you tell us about the roughly 450,000 citations?
 
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Saggy said:
I'm not looking for a list of twenty links, I'm looking for you to discuss evidence for the holocaust yourself, providing links as appropriate. Now, it just so happens that Babi Yar is one of my favorite topics, as it is covered here ...
Click to expand...
20 links?!?! Say what? I cited, borrowing from Nick Terry, the important evidence for Babi Yar, which you claim doesn't exist.

Sorry, there's a lot of it - and ignoring all of it, 20 links of it, or whatever doesn't make it magically disappear.

Saggy said:
So, I'd be happy for you to present the evidence for it. Not a list of links, your discussion of the evidence, and then I'll respond. Sabe'?
Click to expand...
Sorry, no. You've shown yourself incapable of replying to questions, evidence, explanations all along - why should I expect anything different from you now?

I asked you to respond to the evidence for Babi Yar. Apparently you can't. Fine with me.

Saggy said:
What I'm afraid of? I'm afraid the insane aggression of the US/Israeli military will initiate WW III.
Click to expand...
Because of evidence for Babi Yar, or Warsaw, or whatever? Bizarre.

You just claimed there's no evidence for the Holocaust. I listed a large number of sources for a major slaughter of Jews by the Germans. I asked you to tell us your views about the items. You won't. Because you don't have any - you don't know the sources. You're faring really, really badly here.
 
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Saggy said:
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/RHL74xw.png[/qimg]
Click to expand...

Oh, that's another thing that I love about people like this. We have more than one poster on this forum who tries to make an argument via repetitious use of pictures like this. One could almost qualify those posts of propaganda. It would seem that you think repeating a lie often enough gives it power and makes it more real.

Gee, whom have I heard this from before...?
 
Saggy said:
Edited by Locknar: 
Moderated content removed.


(EDIT) Just for fun, let's add the requirement that one of the excavated bodies show signs of cyanide poisoning :)
Click to expand...

Ok, breaking out the hand puppets.........

Muehlenkamp is not mentioned in that link anywhere. You clearly did not even bother to read it.

Additionally inmates of Chelmno were killed with carbon monoxide, not cyanide. You are clearly unable to comprehend the most basic facts of the subject that you are discussing.

<SNIP>

Have I made myself clear?

SNIP'ed, breach of rule 0. Please keep the discussion civil.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar
 
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LeoMajor said:
Ok, breaking out the hand puppets.........

Muehlenkamp is not mentioned in that link anywhere. You clearly did not even bother to read it.

Additionally inmates of Chelmno were killed with carbon monoxide, not cyanide. You are clearly unable to comprehend the most basic facts of the subject that you are discussing.

If you do not read that article and show clearky tnat you did, I will petition to have you banned.

Have I made myself clear?
Click to expand...

Can you identify and describe one mass grave, or not? A list of links is a non-response. Can you understand that, or not?
 
Saggy said:
Can you identify and describe one mass grave, or not? A list of links is a non-response. Can you understand that, or not?
Click to expand...

Did you read the link? Innumerable graves are identified and described there.

This is your final warning
 
LemmyCaution said:
You're faring really, really badly here.
Click to expand...

LOL. I described it before as being like Gulliver and ...... and got a warning, so I won't repeat that.

To me it feels like beating on a drum.

This idea of providing twenty links with no discussion as a response, and then defending it !, is truly pathetic. In what, 10 years, I've never once seen it before !
 
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Saggy said:
I'm not looking for a list of twenty links
Click to expand...

Don't be a *****

I'm looking for you to discuss evidence for the holocaust yourself, providing links as appropriate.
Click to expand...

Which is what we have been doing. You have so far not come across as particularly knowledgeable.

What I'm afraid of? I'm afraid the insane aggression of the US/Israeli military will initiate WW III.
Click to expand...

The Israelis are not relevant outside their stupid little sandbox. The US on the other hand is led by a man that most deniers adore. So in a way it's your own fault.

Edited by Locknar: 
Edited, breach of rule 0 & rule 10. Name calling is never civil or polite. As to curse/vulgar words, Otto Censor has one job...please let him do it and do not alter curse/vulgar words.
 
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Saggy said:
To me it feels like beating on a drum.
Click to expand...

You have been shown to be wrong on the method and scope of the holocaust, on the role of the Jewish community in Latvia in the inter-war years, on the NKVD, and on mass graves. For me it feels like a tennis match against a man with no hands.
 
If Saggy is feeling particularly timid this evening I will enlighten him on a mass grave.

"Grave # 10" identified by Andreasz Kola at Belzec, was shown to be 18X24 meters in width and over 5.25 meters in depth.

KolaFigure27Grave10.jpg


Kola stated that the bottom of the grave contained "human remains in a state of wax-fat transformation". Also found was white sand mixed with rich lime and a substantial amount of cremains.
 
Saggy said:
LOL. I described it before as being like Gulliver and ...... and got a warning, so I won't repeat that.

To me it feels like beating on a drum.

This idea of providing twenty links with no discussion as a response, and then defending it !, is truly pathetic. In what, 10 years, I've never once seen it before !
Click to expand...
Of course in the first place I didn't post twenty links - I posted a list of sources which you claim don't exist. Deal with it and stop crying.

In the second place I am happy to discuss Babi Yar - after you explain how come there is so much evidence when you claim none exists. You made a claim, defend it.

And, last, this act doesn't work partly because it comes from a person who dodges question after question and who is a serial poster of random links - Holohoax 101, Zisblatt, Eric Hunt, etc.
 
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LeoMajor said:
Kola stated that the bottom of the grave contained "human remains in a state of wax-fat transformation".
Click to expand...

I knew that when this pic was posted earlier in the thread it would come in useful, this is the picture of an excavated body from 40,000 years ago ...

TbIgonE.jpg


As we see, the skeleton is intact.

The mass grave you have described is less than 100 years old. How many intact skeletons were in the grave you've described?

Where are the pics of the bodies in 'wax-fat transformation'? How many were there?

That's for starters. We can continue tomorrow.
 
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LemmyCaution said:
In the second place I am happy to discuss Babi Yar - after you explain how come there is so much evidence when you claim none exists. You made a claim, defend it..
Click to expand...

You've got to be kidding. I can't analyze evidence you have not described. I did google the first item on your list ....

1. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 97, 28.9.41 - planning of action

It came up with two hits, both in lists by Terry. There is no sense trying to refute something that cannot even be googled.

So, it is on you present the evidence, described in your own words, with links as appropriate.
 
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Saggy said:
I knew that when this pic was posted earlier in the thread it would come in useful, this is the picture of an escavated body from 40,000 years ago ...

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/TbIgonE.jpg[/qimg]

As we see, the skeleton is intact.

The mass grave you have described is less than 100 years old. How many intact skeletons were in the grave you've described?

Where are the pics of the bodies in 'wax-fat transformation'? How many were there?

That's for starters. We can continue tomorrow.
Click to expand...

The report did not enumerate the number of intact skeletons. However, as the bodies had been subjected to intense burning (note the presence of ashes of human origin, which corroborates with descriptions of the cremation of corpses at Belzec from local residents at the time one cannot logically make a comparison between the grave identified by Kola and the stupid little skeleton that you keep waving around like a dumb fat fruitcake.
 
Saggy said:
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/TbIgonE.jpg[/qimg]

As we see, the skeleton is intact.
Click to expand...

So you confirm by using that image that people have been cremating bodies for long before WWII....lol

Define intact - that is not considered an 'intact' skeleton it is fragmented in situ.

I guess we can add forensic physical anthropology to the long list of subjects you don't know 'binz' about.
 
Saggy said:
You've got to be kidding.
Click to expand...
I'm not.

Saggy said:
I can't analyze evidence you have not described. I did google the first item on your list ....
Click to expand...
So I take it that you deny that the Babi Yar massacre took place. Yet you haven't read the sources for it. Interesting method you use.

Saggy said:
1. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 97, 28.9.41 - planning of action

It came up with two hits, both in lists by Terry. There is no sense trying to refute something that cannot even be googled.
Click to expand...
Is there a Stundie judge in the house? LOL "There is no sense trying to refute something that cannot even be googled." Sorry, Saggy, there is a lot, and I mean a lot, of evidence about history, not just the Holocaust, in documents in archives which cannot be googled. Or in books, articles, and papers that aren't online. Those are the things historians study to learn about the past. You should find out about these things. They have really interesting content.

But your immense incompetence is really getting in our way here: if you want to complain about Google not turning up hits, you need to first learn how to use the search function. Look what I found, 'cuz, yeah, some of this is online: EM 97:
Execution of at least 50,000 Jews planned. The German Army welcomes measures and demands drastic procedure. Garrison commander advocates public execution of 20 Jews.
Click to expand...
I copied a bit of the document because at this point, I'm not sure you know how to click a link.

And so on.

Mind-blowing. Now you demand to be spoonfed . . .

Saggy said:
So, it is on you present the evidence, described in your own words, with links as appropriate.
Click to expand...
Get off your high horse and participate.

E.g., LeoMajor and I have linked you to the same summary of archaeological investigations at Chełmno, but you refuse to read it (or this parallel material, which I posted). If you had any interest at all in the topic, you'd be happy we posted links to the archaeological work and you'd want to read the summary of the work by those close to it. But you'd rather blether on and on about what you will and won't read. Amazing.
 
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Saggy: "I can't analyze evidence you have not described."

We've described evidence - and you've fled, dodged, changed the subject. We've linked to evidence - and you've whined about links. We've given you references to where to find evidence - and you've whined that there's too much.

So I shall now re-write your sentence as I am hearing you: "I can't analyze evidence." Sorry, that is basically what you're telling us.
 
Saggy said:
There is no sense trying to refute something that cannot even be googled.
Click to expand...

....and there it is a prime example of 'clown research'. Yes Saggy all the information in the world is ONLY located in Google.

:eek:
 
So I'm clear...

Reynhard Heydrich is sent to Czechoslovakia, and in the first week he has 92 locals executed, and another 4,000+ rounded up by the Gestapo to be sent to Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp. Only 4% of these people survived.

After Heydrich was righteously killed, the Gestapo wandered into the village of Lidice and shot all of the men over 15 years of age, and rounded up the woman and children and sent them to Chełmno extermination camp where they were gassed. A handful of children deemed racially acceptable were sent to live with S.S. families in the Fatherland (17 would return to Lidice after the war).

My question is this: If the Nazis were so casual about the mass murder of the Czechs (people they weren't even mad at), then what makes anyone thing they'd ever give the Jews under their control a pass on the violence?

The answer is: They didn't.
 
Saggy said:
Can you identify and describe one mass grave, or not?
Click to expand...
Are you saying we can't trust Nazi officers? :):)

SS-Hauptsturmführer Franz Stangl said:
I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there next to the pits full of blue-black corpses. It had nothing to do with humanity—it couldn’t have; it was a mass—a mass of rotting flesh. Wirth said, ‘What shall we do with this garbage?’
Click to expand...
 
Saggy said:
You've got to be kidding. I can't analyze evidence you have not described. I did google the first item on your list ....

1. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 97, 28.9.41 - planning of action

It came up with two hits, both in lists by Terry. There is no sense trying to refute something that cannot even be googled.

So, it is on you present the evidence, described in your own words, with links as appropriate.
Click to expand...

I can't believe what I read. Libraries are full of books and others documents that can't be googled.

But it becomes obvious that Saggy is too lazy or too coward to even try to open a book that could refute his beliefs...
 
LemmyCaution said:
So I shall now re-write your sentence as I am hearing you: "I can't analyze evidence." Sorry, that is basically what you're telling us.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but the only really way to re-write this sentence is: "I don't want to see any evidence or hear of any evidence. And certainly not analyse any evidence"
 
LemmyCaution said:
Why not CO? Why nothing discussed by Muehkenkamp? Saggy is well and truly spooked by Muehlenkamp!
Click to expand...

Not a huge fan but I do like "Hurts So Good" and "Jack & Diane" from his "American Fool" album*.






*C'mon guys, this thread need some yucks what with Saggy not answering any questions ...
 
Degeneve said:
I can't believe what I read. Libraries are full of books and others documents that can't be googled.

But it becomes obvious that Saggy is too lazy or too coward to even try to open a book that could refute his beliefs...
Click to expand...
Also, one refutes an argument. One examines evidence to learn and then uses as much as evidence as can be found to build and support an argument. Saggy OTOH is all worked up to refute the evidence itself - that is, evidence he's never seen but senses to be big trouble for him.
 
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