Axxman300
Philosopher
The forensic, visual, and ballistic evidence says this didn't happen.
Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting
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The forensic, visual, and ballistic evidence says this didn't happen.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Can you actually quote where Burkley said anything about two shots to the head?
You yourself posted those quotes I utilized. Those quotes don't come close to establishing your claim that "Dr. Burkley, Kennedy's personal physician who witnessed the autopsy, said several times that he either suspected or believed that more than one bullet entered the head."
Three separate times, in the quotes you kindly provided, and contrary to your claim above, Burkley referenced one bullet to the head, or specifically excluded more than one bullet to the head.
Can you count to three?
ONE (1): Burkley said: "...but as far as the cause of death the immediate cause was unquestionably the bullet which shattered the brain and the calvarium [skull]." [not 'the bullets'].
TWO (2): Burkley said: "DR. BURKLEY thinks there was one but concedes of the possibility of there having been two." [Burkley's opinion was one shot struck the head].
THREE (3): Burkley said: "Had the Warren Commission deemed to call me, I would have stated why I retained the brain and the possibility of two bullets having wounded President John F. Kennedy's brain would have been eliminated." [If Burkley had testified, he could have eliminated two shots to the head].
So stop the nonsense about Burkley thinking otherwise.
I don't need to suggest that. That's precisely what the autopsy doctors concluded when they had the dead body of President Kennedy in front of them. You want to argue with the autopsy doctors, go right ahead. I know I'm just a layman, with no medical degree, and I'm not about to argue with their conclusions because I'm out of my depth. You apparently have no such compunction.
It was not I who insisted on that. It was the qualified ballistics experts who so testified. I merely quoted their conclusion back to you. A conclusion you were totally unaware of until I cited it.
Hilarious. We'll await your evidence of any such thing. You have no evidence of any such thing.
Well, you say a lot of stuff that makes no sense. I don't suppose one more would faze you any.
Let's start at the top... Could you PLEASE cite for this conclusion that particles of skin from JFK was identified on one of the two fragments under discussion? Once you cite for this new info, we can discuss whether it's actually a fact or not, and how you get from that 'fact' to the conclusion it argues for a tangential wound to the head. Go ahead. Tell us about this skin remnant from JFK found on one of the fragments ballistically traceable to Oswald's weapon. Cite who determined that.
There is no "Warren Commission-endorsed EOP wound". You keep mislocating the wound. It was above the EOP, according to the autopsy report.
I have no agenda other than reporting accurately on the evidence in this case. And the autopsy doctors weren't pushing evidence for conspiracy except in your mind.
Why phrase it that way? The autopsy doctors, to a man, determined both the head wounds were caused by a bullet from behind. That's what they wrote in the original autopsy report, and that's what they maintained every time they testified. Why pretend there is any doubt about that?
They put it above the EOP. You keep putting it at the EOP. You're the one pretending the wound was lower than they always insisted.
Hank
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Axxman300
Philosopher
I don't know what you put in your coffee at the doctor's lounge, but the SPINAL CORD is under the cerebellum. Last time I checked a bullet strike there would cause instant paralysis. Plus, the bare neck is visible in the Zapruder Film and take a wild guess what's missing - blood streaming down.
His body language is consistent with a man wearing a back brace taking a bullet in the upper back, which would have felt like a flaming sledge hammer.
Axxman300
Philosopher
More like as if he's trying to stop the bleeding from the exit wound in his throat.
Axxman300
Philosopher
I really don't care where the bullet entered the head. I know where it was fired from. All of the evidence backs me up (something I refused to accept when I was a CT loon).
Official x-rays of which you have only see two.
You remain clueless to the capabilities of the 6.5x52mm round, and you have yet to rule it out...which you won't because you can't.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
Where did the bullet come from? LOL.
bknight
Master Poster
Precisely my thoughts on the subject and what I have asked MJ to provide information backing up his "second" GSW to the head.
Hank you answered MJ's comments to my post more eloquently than I and I congratulate your counter points.
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
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And what conclusions did they reach?
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Do share. If you are not going to provide references, why should anyone bother wasting their time trying to find something which may or may not match whatever it is you are referring to?
I suspect you simply want to waste everyone's time searching for something so vague that you can immediately deny that it is the correct X-ray with a glib "Search again, search better" comment.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Neat-o.
Maybe they'll release the x-rays of his feet to since they weren't hit either.
bknight
Master Poster
MJ, I'm beginning to think you are nothing but a troll.
MicahJava
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A troll under the bridge asks three questions before you must pass. If you want to pass the bridge into lonenutterdom, you must answer the questions about the EOP location of the entry wound as described by the autopsy report and everybody who was present at the autopsy. Hint: you can't.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
MicahJava
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RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
It's good that you can admit you are losing.
bknight
Master Poster
I don't recall that there ever was a citation where any of the doctors participating in the autopsy indicated that they disagreed with the autopsy.
And now cite such thoughts. Hint: you can't.
Axxman300
Philosopher
We have. You choose to ignore fact and embrace delusion.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
MicahJava
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The autopsy doctors always said that the entry wound was low in the head by the EOP. That corroborates the autopsy report. They disagreed with any higher placement of that wound.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
And only one shot, correct?
MicahJava
Illuminator
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What? Nobody believes in the Thorburn position anymore. That's a rare occurrence which takes place over several hours. Kennedy appears to be reaching for his throat, but can't quite place his hands in the precise area. Inhibited motor skills.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Wrong. Where are you getting this crap?
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Which demonstrates exactly nothing.
Place your second gunman and thence your second wound.
You can't, because your CT gurus can't either.
MicahJava
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My comment was meant to explain the lack of severe damage to the cerebellum, not explain where the projectile went after that. You should have already comprehended the EOP problems by now, but I will outline them again.
If we assume that the autopsy evidence is true and accurate, i.e. photographs and X-rays are not faked, then there are only three real options: 1. high-tech ammunition which will leave virtually no trace of itself upon examination (I'm not even sure if this existed in the early 60's, but i'm not trusting a lone nutter for the answer), 2. the projectile or fragments were surgically removed from the base of the head before the X-rays were taken (perhaps suggested by the "bullet lodged behind the president's ear" memo), or 3. It entered neat the EOP, deflected sharply downwards and exited the throat.
Why bring up the limousine as if the evidence covered from there is settled? It's already a piece of evidence known for have being neglected from proper examination.
Dr. Humes told the ARRB in 1996 that there were fractures in the posterior cranial fossa, so far I'm not sure if any other autopsy doctor made a specific reference to the base of the skull being fractured. One autopsy witness, Tom Robinson also told the ARRB in 1996 that "there were fractures all over the cranium, including the floor of the skull". Perhaps these are the "complete" fractures noted in the autopsy report as radiating from the entry wound as well as the large defect.
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bknight
Master Poster
You forgot to cite these feelings, and as usual you fail.
MicahJava
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This would be in a situation with more than two gunshots causing all injuries to Kennedy and Connally. Why are you referring to a rifle which was supposed to be found with only three spent shells, one a hypothetical miss at best and at worst an obvious plant because of the dented lip? The EOP shot was most likely a different weapon. Certainly not from a high-powered rifle unless it was fired in the z313+ time zone.
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abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Do demonstrate. Also, a bullet passing through ones neck will have what effect?
bknight
Master Poster
You have yet to provide a link to the general public having access to any experimental ammunition.
No citations of this fantasy either, did you read the autopsy report? Continual statements concerning a trajectory that exited the throat are contrary to the autopsy report, and repeating them will never make them correct.
Does this preclude one entry slightly above and right of the EOP? If you answer, then please provide your medical degree(s) and post your experience with GSWs to the head.
Autopsy witnesses are not trained forensic pathologist, so any observation they make may be true, but is meaningless in this context.
And finally we are left with one other possibility that you have failed to list.
4. One SGSW to the head wherever (non precise location) doesn't really make difference blew the top right portion of the skull off and did considerable damage to the brain. This killed the President.
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
What weapon? Who fired it? From where? Why is there no evidence for it? Where is that weapon? Why is there no bullet hole from any but Oswald's rifle? Where did Oswald's three shots go? Who planted Oswald's rifle in Oswald's workplace? Where are the curtain rods?
A typical CTist will not have any answers and will continue to lose.
Axxman300
Philosopher
A bullet striking the rear of the skull low will go right through the cerebellum.
Your theory is voided.
And you have to because there is no evidence that they are fakes. So there's that.
No such thing. Did not exist. They didn't even try that 2 years later on Star Trek, that's how dumb this idea is.
You know what did exist in 1963? Lee Oswald.
Nope. Never happened. Parkland never saw this, and the autospy pathologists were honest men. The memo is incorrect, we know it's incorrect, and has no weight as evidence to anything else but the confusion in the hours after the assassination.
Nope. We know because there was no levitating gunman on Elm Street, which is what you'd need for this shot to be real, that plus 200 temporarily blind eye witnesses.
Again, this is CT gibberish. The limo got a solid work-over. It's not like they were finding skull fragments months later.
I'll try to keep this answer to a 2nd grade level. The 6.5x52mm round at 300 feet has the same effect as sledge hammer on the human skull. Everything you just implied was mysterious was actually proven ballistic evidence of the Caracno round's power. You can't get around the 6.5x52mm Carcano bullet in this crime. It not only killed JFK and wounded Connally, it has killed your theory.
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Axxman300
Philosopher
That's all it took. Weird.
Because it WAS found with three spent shells because there were only three...oh that's right, you can't count that high.
No, it's not hypothetical. He fired and the bullet didn't strike it's target. Pretty sure they call that a "Miss" at every gun range on the planet.
And your assertion that it's an "obvious plant" because of the "dented lip" is based on what? Your hours at the range? Your years with MARSOC or the SEALs?
Let me think about that one...Oswald had a Carcano with 6.5x52mm rounds...only two bullets were found, both 6.5x52mm, both fired from his rifle...since that's all true...the EOP was definitely a different weapon...one that wasn't fired because there's no EOP.
Good god, man, you're onto something. All we have to do now is look at all of the crowd photos and film to find that guy who never fired his weapon. A non-assassin assassin, a CT first. I'll Oliver Stone on the phone right now. There's justice to be served.
Tomtomkent
Philosopher
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Let’s apply Occams Razor.
Which is adds fewest complications:
1) Futuristic ammo types, unknown at the time.
2) A bullet managing to enter the EOP, while carefully dodging bits of the brain right in its path, then taking a trajectory that no doctors actually thought of, in the autopsy.
3) An additional gunman, who somehow had a silenced weapon, that left no traces from the ammunition.
4) Micha Java misunderstandings the word “slightly “ and insisting the wound was on the EOP.
Given there are no anomalies to solve if we consider 4) correct, that remains the most convincing.
Which is adds fewest complications:
1) Futuristic ammo types, unknown at the time.
2) A bullet managing to enter the EOP, while carefully dodging bits of the brain right in its path, then taking a trajectory that no doctors actually thought of, in the autopsy.
3) An additional gunman, who somehow had a silenced weapon, that left no traces from the ammunition.
4) Micha Java misunderstandings the word “slightly “ and insisting the wound was on the EOP.
Given there are no anomalies to solve if we consider 4) correct, that remains the most convincing.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Really? And you possess the ability to speak for all six billion on the planet through what process exactly?
According to whom? I've seen it occur in NFL football games, as I explained previously. The player receives a hard hit to the head, compressing the neck, and he is laid out on the ground with his arms in the same position.
He points to his neck. Due to damage to or near the spine.
Your conjectures to the contrary don't amount to anything until you tell us your medical background in neurology.
Hank
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HSienzant
Philosopher
And that's the problem. You need to treat these issues as part of the same problem, not as totally separate issues that get different explanations. If the bullet hit the base of the skull as in your argument above, where'd it go after that? How'd it get through the base of the skull without creating an exit wound in the base of the skull? How did it finally exit the throat without an exit wound in the base of the skull?
No need, I understand your problem and keep confronting you with it, but you keep avoiding a meaningful response.
Whoa! What happened to 1. It exited the top of the head, exactly as the autopsy doctors claimed?
And if it first struck the base of the skull as you suggested above, why is there no damage to the base of the skull, and where is that bullet? Your arguments make no sense and are contradictory. How can the bullet both deflect downwards and exit the throat without damaging the base of the skull? If the bullet can deflect downwards in MicahJava world explanation #3 above, why can't it deflect upwards and exit the top of the head? Please explain how deflections downward are possible in MJ-world, but not deflections upward.
Nonsense and more nonsense. The two large bullet fragments were recovered from the limousine on the night of the assassination. We've addressed your absurd arguments about the limo being "neglected".
1. His recollections from 33 years after the fact were often qualified with waffle words like "I'm not sure" and "If I recall correctly". Instead of summarizing his words, why not QUOTE his words, in context?
2. The bullet entered the rear of the head and caused massive disruption to the brain. Of course the skull has fractures throughout. That's why they didn't have to do a standard skullcap removal to remove the brain. The skull was already extensively fragmented.
3. Where did Humes talk about an exit through the floor of the skull or an exit in the throat from a skull wound? You're just back to cherry-picking stuff you like out of the record and ignoring all the expert opinion you don't like. Not the best or the most appropriate way to solve a crime.
4. The posterior cranial fossa is shown to be fractured in the HSCA drawings of the skull that you reject. Specifically this one here where the damage to the skull from the bullet entry wound extends downward:
Yep. Asked and answered. Where's the bullet wound exit point in the floor of the skull? Where'd anyone talk about THAT?
You need to understand something: A fracture is not a bullet exit wound.
You're arguing for an entry wound at the rear of the skull slightly above the External Occipital Protuberance (EOP). You're arguing for an exit for this bullet from JFK's throat. But if it enters the back of the skull and exits the throat, it must exit the base of the skull at some point. Where is that exit wound noted by the autopsy surgeons in the autopsy report?
And this bullet you conjecture must go, from the nature of the wound locations you insist on, right through the SPINE. Where's that damage noted in the autopsy report?
Hey, you figured something out. Congratulations. Yes, there are fractures radiating from both the entry and exit wounds in the skull. Where's the evidence of a bullet EXIT in the base of the skull? You have absolutely NO evidence of any such exit. And fractures extending to the base of the skull aren't evidence of an bullet exit wound there. And you don't get to pretend they are.
Hank
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HSienzant
Philosopher
You avoided Axxman's point entirely. The shooter behind the President, regardless of where you put him and regardless of which weapon he was firing, still could see and hit the area of the skull slightly above the EOP, could he not? The shooter in the Depository could see that same spot and hit that spot, yes? Your argument doesn't eliminate Oswald as that shooter hitting that spot.
Your response about not seeing JFK's EOP on the Zapruder film is still just a strawman argument, isn't it, as that was NOT the argument he was advancing, but merely one of your own creation to knock down, to pretend you actually had a rebuttal point.
You don't.
In addition, the new explanation / conjecture / speculation you advance, about a different shooter firing different ammo from a different location, has absolutely no evidence supporting it.
Let me repeat that for emphasis: Your new explanation / conjecture / speculation about a different shooter firing different ammo from a different location has absolutely no evidence supporting it.
No witnesses put a gunman anywhere but the Depository. No witnesses saw a man with a weapon before, during, or after the shooting anywhere but on one of the upper floors of the Depository.
No hard evidence of any other weapon, or shells, or bullets pointing to another weapon used in the assassination was ever recovered from Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination.
No damage from another bullet not traceable to Oswald's weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world was ever noted, and no bullet, large bullet fragment, or shell not fired from Oswald's weapon was ever recovered.
In short, you are conjecturing a imaginary assassin shot JFK with an imaginary weapon causing imaginary damage not seen anywhere by anyone.
Still not the best way to solve this crime.
Hank
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HSienzant
Philosopher
Yes, a conjecture on your part, with no evidence supporting it.
What do you mean "supposed to be found"? That's exactly what happened. It was found on the sixth floor, near the northwest stairwell. And separate from it, three shells were found at the southeast corner window of the same floor.
DISCOVERY OF THE RIFLE:
Mr. BALL - Did somebody tell you Officer Mooney had found some shells?
Mr. BOONE - Not him in particular. They said the shells had been found on the sixth floor. At that time, I didn't know he had found them.
Mr. BALL - What did you do after you got up to the sixth floor?
Mr. BOONE - Well, I proceeded to the east end of the building, I guess, and started working our way across the building to the west wall, looking in, under, and around all the boxes and pallets, and what-have-you that were on the floor. Looking for the weapon. And as I got to the west wall, there were a row of windows there, and a slight space between some boxes and the wall. I squeezed through them.
When I did--I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here.
Mr. BALL - What happened then?
Mr. BOONE - Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay. And at that time Captain Fritz picked it up by the strap, and it was removed from the place where it was.
Mr. BALL - You saw them take the photograph?
Mr. BOONE - Yes.
DISCOVERY OF THE SHELLS:
Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?
Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side.
And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.
I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that.
And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am going back down on six.
At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was--he was calming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures. He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth floor.
I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from.
So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.
Well, so I hollered, or signaled I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up.
And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the location spotted.
So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers.
We have two bullets causing all the wounds and three shots heard by the vast majority of the witnesses. So this 'hypothetical miss' must be a real miss in that scenario, must it not?
The dented lip can be caused by the extractor mechanism after the bullet is fired. This was duplicated in testing by the HSCA back in 1978 -- 39 years ago. News must travel slowly where you are located.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0191a.htm
In any case, how do you know this dented bullet was associated with the missed shot, and not the shot that hit the President in the back, or the bullet that hit the President in the head? How did you determine a plant is the most reasonable explanation?
How come you bring up only the arguments in favor of conspiracy and ignore any resolutions of the arguments that were discovered during the various investigations (like the dented bullet shell resolution known for 39 years)?
I can see only two possible reasons for this:
1. The websites you frequent for your arguments aren't telling you the whole truth.
2. You're not telling the whole truth.
Which is it, or is there another possibility I'm overlooking?
Based on what evidence? You have none as I pointed out in a previous post.
This is based on your extensive medical and ballistic knowledge gained where?
Hank
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Jean Davison
New Blood
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According to Dr. Kenneth Strully, a New Hampshire neurosurgeon, JFK's arm movements following Z225 were caused by direct stimulation of the relevant nerves in the spine.
In a letter appearing on another forum long ago he wrote, "Before all else, it is necessary to remember that this assassination reveals a sequence of neural responses initiated in the neck by the shock wave and cavitation induced by the bullet in its traverse of the neck. This traumatized all structures in a 6 inch radius in all directions from the path of passage through the neck. This spread of forces occurred in a fraction of a second, traumatizing all neural structures in the immediate vicinity [….] As a result, contraction of the muscles innervated by nerves closest to the bullet’s path took place first; — right deltoid, left deltoid, right biceps followed by the left biceps [….] Kennedy did not reach for his throat. All movements seen in the films, occurring relative to the bullet’s passage, were involuntary; lifting of the shoulders was a result of contraction of the deltoids followed by contraction of the biceps muscles which flexed the upper extremities at the elbows, then forearm and intrinsic muscles of the hands causing clenching of the hands.”
Charts online show that the nerves controlling the arms and hands originate around the C8/T1 area. No, it wasn't the Thorburn position but something similar, evidently.
Going back to lurking now... Carry on, gentlemen.
In a letter appearing on another forum long ago he wrote, "Before all else, it is necessary to remember that this assassination reveals a sequence of neural responses initiated in the neck by the shock wave and cavitation induced by the bullet in its traverse of the neck. This traumatized all structures in a 6 inch radius in all directions from the path of passage through the neck. This spread of forces occurred in a fraction of a second, traumatizing all neural structures in the immediate vicinity [….] As a result, contraction of the muscles innervated by nerves closest to the bullet’s path took place first; — right deltoid, left deltoid, right biceps followed by the left biceps [….] Kennedy did not reach for his throat. All movements seen in the films, occurring relative to the bullet’s passage, were involuntary; lifting of the shoulders was a result of contraction of the deltoids followed by contraction of the biceps muscles which flexed the upper extremities at the elbows, then forearm and intrinsic muscles of the hands causing clenching of the hands.”
Charts online show that the nerves controlling the arms and hands originate around the C8/T1 area. No, it wasn't the Thorburn position but something similar, evidently.
Going back to lurking now... Carry on, gentlemen.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Hi Jean!
Don't know if you recall, but we first crossed paths back on Prodigy in the early 1990's when I relayed what Lifton told me at a conference in Dallas in the early 1990s when I asked him who altered Connally's wounds.
As you know, Lifton's thesis in his book BEST EVIDENCE was that all the shooters were in front of JFK and the wounds on JFK's back and the back of the head were placed there by conspirators intent on making the shooting look like it came from behind (and framing Oswald) rather than the front.
That meant, of course, that all the shooters were in front of Connally as well, and Connally's wounds must have likewise been altered, as he has a bullet entry wound on his right back that exited his chest.
Lifton said that would be in his next book. Twenty-five years and counting, I'm still waiting for a explanation.
Thanks for the input.
Hank
PS: For those who don't know, Jean Davison is the author of OSWALD'S GAME.
https://www.amazon.com/Oswalds-Game...06&sr=8-1&keywords=Jean+Davison+Oswald's+Game
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