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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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The new Oswald mock trial's ethics panel features a 3D animation traced over the Zapruder Film which can be considered a rebuttal to Dale Myers. Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH_r1uDCa88&t=18m1s

At the 8:13 mark, he's got the bogus alignment of the President and the Governor, with the Governor aligned directly in front of the President, and facing directly forward.

He does this to argue the bullet path must have deviated from a straight line somewhere between the President and the Governor. This is the standard conspiracy strawman argument, pretending this is what the Commission said. They said nothing of the sort.

If the Governor is aligned properly in the limo, slightly lower than the President, slightly inboard of the President, and in the process of turning, as he testified, then the wounds align in a straight line, and there is no deviation in the bullet path.

At the 9:31 mark, he shows an image of the President's jacket on a coat hanger, lying flat, with the entry point noted as nearly six inches down in the jacket. This is a distortion, because JFK wasn't as thin as a coat hanger, and doesn't take into account the fact that images taken along the motorcade route show his jacket was bunched near the top, having the effect of raising the bullet hole in his jacket relative to his body.

Do I really need to go on?

This video simply regurgitates a lot of old conspiracy myths about the assassination, because if conspiracy theorists had to be truthful, they wouldn't have an argument.

Hank
 
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At the 9:31 mark, he shows an image of the President's jacket on a coat hanger, lying flat, with the entry point noted as nearly six inches down in the jacket. This is a distortion, because JFK wasn't as thin as a coat hanger, and doesn't take into account the fact that images taken along the motorcade route show his jacket was bunched near the top, having the effect of raising the bullet hole in his jacket relative to his body.
It doesn't matter how anything looked along the motorcade except for the moment of impact. At the 10:00 mark the Speaker did note that the jacket, no more than 2.5 seconds prior to being hit, was "maybe an inch bowed up at this point" but even that is immaterial, you have to go with facts and Admiral Burkley wrote on the Death Certificate that the wound was located close to the "third thoracic vertebra" which is the back and not the base of the neck. The Admiral was precise, clear and provided a reference point that is quantifiable. Ford (he was not present at the autopsy) who inserted and deleted words of his own Committee chose to purposefully alter the stated location instead of using the verbiage of medical records.

"A bullet had entered the base of the back of his neck slightly to the right of his spine." This was in the final draft and it effectively eliminated the precise location the signed autopsy sheet provided which was verified by the President's personal physician.

The only argument regarding the location of the wound is:

Do you believe multiple medical professionals who were present at the autopsy, signed the Death Certificate and have combined medical education/experience that spans decades or of a politically appointed committee person who was not at the autopsy, completely void of medical training that changed the location of the entry wound... because he could?
 
It doesn't matter how anything looked along the motorcade except for the moment of impact. At the 10:00 mark the Speaker did note that the jacket, no more than 2.5 seconds prior to being hit, was "maybe an inch bowed up at this point" but even that is immaterial...

No, it's not. For about 51 years now conspiracy theorists have argued the bullet hole in the jacket establishes the wound in JFK was too low to be where the autopsy placed it. But as even you concede, the jacket was bunched all along the parade route, and it's not likely to have unbunched just in time for the shooting. So the bunching of the jacket moves the wound upward relative to JFK's body. Moving it upward due to the bunch, along with the realization that JFK wasn't as thin as a coat hanger, which also gives the impression the wound would be lower in the back than it really was, means the wound was at the level of the shoulders, exactly where the official autopsy report places it. It reads, on page three:

"Situated on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper boarder of the scapula there is a 7x4 millimeter oval wound. This wound is measured to be 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromium process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process." (The scapula is the shoulder blade, and you can see it extends to the level between the second & third thoracic vertebrae in the image below). It goes on to say in summarizing: "The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissue of the supra-scapular and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck.



...you have to go with facts and Admiral Burkley wrote on the Death Certificate that the wound was located close to the "third thoracic vertebra" which is the back and not the base of the neck. The Admiral was precise, clear and provided a reference point that is quantifiable.

Can you count to three? I can. Count down from the top of the vertebrae in red in this image:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoracic_vertebrae#/media/File:Thoracic_vertebrae_back3.png

Just above the third vertebrae is "close to the third throracic vertebra" and "just above the upper boarder of the scapula". Do you see that? That puts the wound at about the level of the shoulders.

Pretty much just where this autopsy photo puts it.
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/images/BE5_HI.jpg

Dr. Humes conducted the autopsy. He testified the wound was in the lower neck.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/humes.htm
Commander HUMES - The wound in the low neck of which I had previously begun to speak is now posteriorly--is now depicted in [Commission Exhibits] 385, in 386 and in 388.

The autopsy doctor testified to the wound "in the low neck". Where did the Warren Commission place it? Read on...



Ford (he was not present at the autopsy) who inserted and deleted words of his own Committee chose to purposefully alter the stated location instead of using the verbiage of medical records.

Untrue. The autopsy language and the testimony of Dr. Humes is above. The final language in the Warren Report is here (pages 86-87):
The President's Neck Wounds
During the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital another bullet wound was observed near the base of the back of President Kennedy's neck slightly to the right of his spine which provides further enlightenment as to the source of the shots. The hole was located approximately 5% inches (14 centimeters) from the tip of the right shoulder joint and approximately the same distance below the tip of the right mastoid process, the bony point immediately behind the ear. The wound was approximately one-fourth by one-seventh of an inch (7 by 4 millimeters), had clean edges, was sharply delineated, and had margins similar in all respects to those of the entry wound in the skull.




"A bullet had entered the base of the back of his neck slightly to the right of his spine." This was in the final draft and it effectively eliminated the precise location the signed autopsy sheet provided which was verified by the President's personal physician.

Still untrue. The final version as published borrows liberally from both the autopsy report language and the testimony of Dr. Humes, the autopsy doctor who conducted the autopsy.

And by the way, it's not an autopsy sheet and has nothing to do with the autopsy. It's a part of the death certificate, which can be completed by any qualified person, like a police officer, even. In this case it was completed by the President's personal physician.
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md6/html/Image0.htm
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md6/html/Image1.htm



The only argument regarding the location of the wound is:
Do you believe multiple medical professionals who were present at the autopsy, signed the Death Certificate and have combined medical education/experience that spans decades or of a politically appointed committee person who was not at the autopsy, completely void of medical training

Both. The language is the Warren Report echoes that of the autopsy report and the testimony of the chief autopsist of JFK, Dr. Humes. All of that agrees with Burkley's claim that the wound was above the scapula and near the third thoracic vertebrae.



that changed the location of the entry wound... because he could?

You haven't established that. In fact, I just established it wasn't changed, that it uses almost the same language as the autopsy surgeon testified to and the autopsy report he submitted.

Now, what website or book lied to you about Gerald Ford changing the language and raising the wound?

Hank
 
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At the 8:13 mark, he's got the bogus alignment of the President and the Governor, with the Governor aligned directly in front of the President, and facing directly forward.

He does this to argue the bullet path must have deviated from a straight line somewhere between the President and the Governor. This is the standard conspiracy strawman argument, pretending this is what the Commission said. They said nothing of the sort.

If the Governor is aligned properly in the limo, slightly lower than the President, slightly inboard of the President, and in the process of turning, as he testified, then the wounds align in a straight line, and there is no deviation in the bullet path.

When someone accepts and swallows the totally bogus "magic bullet" nonsense I know there is no reason to take the person who pushes it forward Because it indicates:

1, That the person has been reading far too much conspiracy woo nonsense.

2, That their knowledge of the assassination is at best partial and / or very minimal.

3, And if they are indeed knowledgeable about the assassination then they are arguing in bad faith and deliberately presenting a bogus argument.

Oliver stone presented this "magic bullet" nonsense in his move JFK, despite the fact it can be easily demonstrated to be total ************. I am totally amazed how this falsehood is still believed by so many.
 
When someone accepts and swallows the totally bogus "magic bullet" nonsense I know there is no reason to take the person who pushes it forward Because it indicates:

1, That the person has been reading far too much conspiracy woo nonsense.

2, That their knowledge of the assassination is at best partial and / or very minimal.

3, And if they are indeed knowledgeable about the assassination then they are arguing in bad faith and deliberately presenting a bogus argument.

Oliver stone presented this "magic bullet" nonsense in his move JFK, despite the fact it can be easily demonstrated to be total ************. I am totally amazed how this falsehood is still believed by so many.

I go back to the old "sit the passengers in the car" nonsense. You know the claims are ******** when they have JFK and Connolly on the same level, sitting up erect and facing perfectly forward. At no point during the shooting were they ever arranged that way.

And if anyone tries to make a claim based on that arrangement, you know they are either lying or completely incompetent (perhaps both).

This isn't a matter of opinion, this is basic fact. Any analysis of the bullet path is going to have to have the people sitting in the right spots. If they aren't, then you know that it's nonsense. It's a non-starter.
 
The new Oswald mock trial's ethics panel features a 3D animation traced over the Zapruder Film which can be considered a rebuttal to Dale Myers. Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH_r1uDCa88&t=18m1s

And it can also be considered a rebuttal to the arguments you've advanced here about a bullet entry wound near the external occipital protuberance. Where did he place it again? Oh, that's right, above the location you favor, in agreement with the HSCA pathology panel, which you contend was in error for placing it there.

So why do you bring it up, exactly, since it directly contradicts your primary talking point over the last year or more?

Hank
 
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I go back to the old "sit the passengers in the car" nonsense. You know the claims are ******** when they have JFK and Connolly on the same level, sitting up erect and facing perfectly forward. At no point during the shooting were they ever arranged that way.

And if anyone tries to make a claim based on that arrangement, you know they are either lying or completely incompetent (perhaps both).

This isn't a matter of opinion, this is basic fact. Any analysis of the bullet path is going to have to have the people sitting in the right spots. If they aren't, then you know that it's nonsense. It's a non-starter.

Absolutely agree!!
 
The new Oswald mock trial's ethics panel features a 3D animation traced over the Zapruder Film which can be considered a rebuttal to Dale Myers. Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH_r1uDCa88&t=18m1s

Yeah, there are a long list of reasons why his theory doesn't work.

1. He lists the first shot a few frames later than it likely occured.

2. The second shot comes as they pass the freeway sign, and Conally and JFK are both reacting to the same bullet.

3. They found that bullet.

4. They never found more than 2 bullets, and we know the head-shot 6.5x52mm round shattered, some of it struck the inside of the windshield, and it's not inconceivable that some of those fragents exited forward of the limo. There is a large volume of that bullet that was never recovered.

5. The angle from the roof of the proposed building is too high.

6. The video in no way acknowledges the performance of the 6.5x52mm round, nor does it match up with what we know of what happened to the round as it passed through JFK's head.

For even half of that video to be correct one has to ignore too many basic facts, and a lot of ballistic science.:thumbsup:
 
And it can also be considered a rebuttal to the arguments you've advanced here about a bullet entry wound near the external occipital protuberance. Where did he place it again? Oh, that's right, above the location you favor, in agreement with the HSCA pathology panel, which you contend was in error for placing it there.

So why do you bring it up, exactly, since it directly contradicts your primary talking point over the last year or more?

Hank

Everything he's posted in his little Autopsy/Mortician Adventure has directly contradicted everything he has claimed over the past year. He cannot process information, only regurgitate things he find on CT sites.

Example: The mortician time-line CT only matters if one believes that the body was altered to hide all of the wounds coming from the front in order to frame Oswald. Thus, MJ's EOP theory no longer matters as all of JFK's wounds came from the front if you buy into the mortician nonsense. MJ doesn't understand that the author's "research" was all skewed to support the body being altered, and obviously contradictory evidence never makes it into his book. He's done this with other CT works he's tried to cherry-pick in his EOP quest, and each time he ignores the larger body of those works and their conclusions, all of which undermine his theory.

He has yet to demonstrate that he has read any of the new files. I even told him there is an FBI memo, though unsubstantiated, which could help him with his EOP theory, but does he go looking?...Nope.
 
Everything he's posted in his little Autopsy/Mortician Adventure has directly contradicted everything he has claimed over the past year. He cannot process information, only regurgitate things he find on CT sites.

Example: The mortician time-line CT only matters if one believes that the body was altered to hide all of the wounds coming from the front in order to frame Oswald. Thus, MJ's EOP theory no longer matters as all of JFK's wounds came from the front if you buy into the mortician nonsense. MJ doesn't understand that the author's "research" was all skewed to support the body being altered, and obviously contradictory evidence never makes it into his book. He's done this with other CT works he's tried to cherry-pick in his EOP quest, and each time he ignores the larger body of those works and their conclusions, all of which undermine his theory.

He has yet to demonstrate that he has read any of the new files. I even told him there is an FBI memo, though unsubstantiated, which could help him with his EOP theory, but does he go looking?...Nope.

When I went back in the old thread to dig up the No Other headspace gauge nonsense I note that in October-November of 2016 MJ was riding the same lame headwound horse he's riding now.

In going back in the old thread I can also see where I began to give up on going into detail to rebut some of this nonsense these posters come up with. It's not worth my effort.

I salute the posters who have the wherewithal to rebut the nonsense those posters are married to.
 
At the 8:13 mark, he's got the bogus alignment of the President and the Governor, with the Governor aligned directly in front of the President, and facing directly forward.

He does this to argue the bullet path must have deviated from a straight line somewhere between the President and the Governor. This is the standard conspiracy strawman argument, pretending this is what the Commission said. They said nothing of the sort.

If the Governor is aligned properly in the limo, slightly lower than the President, slightly inboard of the President, and in the process of turning, as he testified, then the wounds align in a straight line, and there is no deviation in the bullet path.

Um, what? The video shows the Zapruder Film overlaid the animation and it appears to fit quite well. Kennedy is sitting at an elevated position above Connally.

SAFZue5.png


Quit making stuff up. And the seat was 2 1/2 inches to the right of the Limousine door, not 6 inches. Friendly reminder that the Single Bullet theory requires Connally's left ass cheek to be hanging over the side of the seat.
 
When someone accepts and swallows the totally bogus "magic bullet" nonsense I know there is no reason to take the person who pushes it forward Because it indicates:

1, That the person has been reading far too much conspiracy woo nonsense.

2, That their knowledge of the assassination is at best partial and / or very minimal.

3, And if they are indeed knowledgeable about the assassination then they are arguing in bad faith and deliberately presenting a bogus argument.

Oliver stone presented this "magic bullet" nonsense in his move JFK, despite the fact it can be easily demonstrated to be total ************. I am totally amazed how this falsehood is still believed by so many.

Pacal, did you even see the 3D animation I linked above which can be considered serious evidence against the Single Bullet Theory?
 
And it can also be considered a rebuttal to the arguments you've advanced here about a bullet entry wound near the external occipital protuberance. Where did he place it again? Oh, that's right, above the location you favor, in agreement with the HSCA pathology panel, which you contend was in error for placing it there.

So why do you bring it up, exactly, since it directly contradicts your primary talking point over the last year or more?

Hank

John Orr did not make the animation, he simply presented it in a way that demonstrated his personal theories.
 
John Orr did not make the animation, he simply presented it in a way that demonstrated his personal theories.

And now you are presenting it... and yet it still contradicts your own claims.
Oddly your post failed to address that issue completely. Do you see why this might not convince us that your placement of certain wounds are correct, when the evidence you present relies on the accepted and proven wounds?
 
When I went back in the old thread to dig up the No Other headspace gauge nonsense I note that in October-November of 2016 MJ was riding the same lame headwound hobby-horse he's riding now.

In going back in the old thread I can also see where I began to give up on going into detail to rebut some of this nonsense these posters come up with. It's not worth my effort.

I salute the posters who have the wherewithal to rebut the nonsense those posters are married to.

FTFY. Your original post implies he's actually getting somewhere. ;)

Hank
 
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Um, what? The video shows the Zapruder Film overlaid the animation and it appears to fit quite well. Kennedy is sitting at an elevated position above Connally.
[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/SAFZue5.png[/qimg]
Wait, what? What film in 1963 was taken from the angle you show above, and please show that image and how it matches.

And the vertical alignment wasn't the only problem I mentioned.

And there's a deviation in the bullet path as it exits the neck. You didn't notice that unaccounted-for change? Extend the line downward along the original line -- he admits the bullet in question should penetrate flesh without a deviation elsewhere in the video -- and you've got your single bullet hitting both men.


Quit making stuff up.
We could rightfully say that in response to almost any post of yours, but the admonishment would no doubt not be effective.


And the seat was 2 1/2 inches to the right of the Limousine door, not 6 inches. Friendly reminder that the Single Bullet theory requires Connally's left ass cheek to be hanging over the side of the seat.
According to which conspiracy website you frequent? Seriously. Your problem is you're getting your so-called facts from conspiracy authors and conspiracy websites, not legitimate primary sources. So roughly 99% percent of your claims don't track back to anything you can establish, which is why your responses aren't rebuttals of the facts, but simple name-calling. Like this:
"I can see you're really acting like a child here."

We can see that. You might be too close to the problem to see it.

Hank
 
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Pacal, did you even see the 3D animation I linked above which can be considered serious evidence against the Single Bullet Theory?

What part of "Garbage in, Garbage out" in my original post didn't you understand?

I note you didn't respond to any of this:

Problem is his built-in bias is showing.

At the 3:36 mark, the bullet points in the video say there was a fourth bullet, based on what he claims were conclusions reached by the FBI, Secret Service, and CIA that three bullets landed in the limousine. He argues the Tague shot was that evidence of a fourth bullet, but apparently never considers whether it could have been the lead core of the head shot that struck Tague.

He also misdates the Warren Commission determination of the single-bullet concept vs. the determination of when Tague was wounded (claiming Tague's wounding caused the WC to develop the single-bullet concept). The single-bullet concept came before Tague testified and came about because of a close study of the Zapruder film and the recreation when compared to the eyewitness testimony, especially that of John Connally. It had nothing to do with Tague.

The Testimony of John Connally was taken on April 21st, 1964.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh4/html/WC_Vol4_0055a.htm

The FBI / Secret Service reenactment was done May 24th, 1964.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/18286-1964-fbi-re-enactment-color-credit-6th-floor-museum/

Tague's testimony was taken on July 23rd, 1964.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0280b.htm

So his claim in those bullet points that the discovery of the Tague wound led the Commission to decide on a single-bullet concept is false. The Tague wound wasn't the genesis, it was the recreation and the perceived timing of the shots combined with the testimony of the Governor.

Garbage in, Garbage out.

The Wikipedia page on the Single Bullet Theory has much more detail and exposes the claim in the cited video as a falsehood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-bullet_theory

Note particularly the dates in these two paragraphs:
On April 14 and 21, two conferences were held at the Commission to determine when, exactly, the president and governor were struck. Assistant counsel Melvin Eisenberg wrote in a memorandum dated April 22 on the first conference that the consensus of those attending was, among other issues, that Kennedy was struck by frames 225–6 and that “the velocity of the first bullet [which struck Kennedy] would have been little diminished by its passage through the President. Therefore, if Governor Connally was in the path of the bullet it would have struck him and caused the wounds he sustained in his chest cavity... Strong indications for that this occurred are provided by the facts that... if the first bullet did not strike Governor Connally, it should have ripped up the car but it apparently did not.” However, the memorandum stated, given the relatively undamaged condition of the bullet presumed to have done this, CE 399, the consensus was a separate bullet probably struck his wrist and thigh. While not specifying a precise frame for when it was thought Connally was struck by the same bullet which struck Kennedy, the consensus was “by Z235” as afterwards his body position would not have allowed his back to be struck the way it was.

By the end of April 1964, the Commission had its working theory, the single-bullet theory, to account for the apparent timing discrepancies found in the Zapruder film and the lack of any damage to the limousine from a high-velocity bullet exiting the president's throat. (Impact damage was observed in the limousine, but was indicative of lower-velocity bullets or bullet fragments. For example, a nick on the limousine’s chrome was not from a high-velocity bullet as such a bullet would have pierced the chrome, not merely dented it.)


Tague didn't testify until July. His claims about the genesis of the single bullet concept are false.

I removed the footnoting present in the original.

Hank
 
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