Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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MicahJava said:
There was a window of time between the departure of FBI agents Sibert and O'Neil and the true end of the autopsy.
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So nothing except "anybody but Oswald"?

I accept your concession that you don't have a theory. Like every other CTist. I look forward to the day when an interesting CTist shows up and displays some relevance.
 
The professionals from Gawlers Funeral Home arrived while "they were proceeding with the most mortem... the head, I think the thoracic cavities and all, had been opened... our hearse took the (mahogany) casket out to the Naval Hospital late that evening... we dressed him and rolled the casket right in and put him in it." (Interview of Joe Hagen by Harrison Livingstone and Kathlee Fitzgerald, 8/15/91)
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What this says is they got there early, and had to wait around.

Not seeing conspiracy, just guys concerned with taking care JFK.

You are really bad at this.
 
MicahJava said:
There was a window of time between the departure of FBI agents Sibert and O'Neil and the true end of the autopsy.
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None of which matters in any way. It doesn't change what happened in Dallas, and that is the only thing that counts in this story.

Harrison Livingstone lived a few miles away from me. He is not a good source, he saw only what he wanted to see.

If you accept Livingstone then you have to accept his theory:

Four men fire 13 shots at JFK striking him in the front and back of the head and neck. None of the shooters was Oswald.

Livingstone claims that the Zapruder Film was doctored to hide a massive exit wound in the back of JFK's head.

Livingstone asserts that Hoover was behind the assassination, doing the bidding of wealth Texas oilmen, who had invested heavily in the defense industry, and stood to lose billions if the US withdrew from Vietnam(which we weren't involved in a big way in 1963), and that LBJ would insure escalation.

By citing Livingstone you have to accept this as your theory of what happened in Dallas. You can't pick and choose your sources because each CT-Hack's work is slanted to support their silly theories, and thus suffered from inadequate research, and heavy speculation.

Why you've failed (again) on this red-herring is the only reason the autopsy time line inconsistencies are relevant is because the body was being surgically altered to frame Oswald as the lone shooter...THE ONLY REASON.

So you now have to explain why you believe the body was altered, who altered it before it got to Bethesda, and how they knew to frame Oswald in the first place.
 
MicahJava said:
Nope, almost the same story was told to William Manchester and Jim Bishop in the 60's.
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By Sibert and O'Neill?

You mean your argument where they made stuff up to destroy Lifton's body alteration theory that hadn't been invented yet?
"Comparing their statements to other evidence and witnesses, it seems that they may have a personal motive for adding details to their stories that conveniently discredit various theories like body alteration/early throat wound discovery"

Is that your best argument for the discrepancies in the 33-years-after-the-fact recollections of the men involved?

Yeah, that makes as much sense as anything else you've said to date.

And if you're going to follow Lifton's lead on his body alteration theory, at least reveal what Lifton never could: WHO ALTERED CONNALLY'S WOUNDS? It's Lifton's theory that all the shooters were in front of the President, none behind, and that means all the shooters were in front of the Governor as well. In Lifton's nearly 800-page doorstop, he never once addressed that issue.

Remember, by the time the Presidential Limousine arrived at Parkland Hospital, the Governor already had wounds pointing to a shooter behind him. So which one of the six people (excluding the Governor himself) altered the Governor's wounds on the ride from Dealey Plaza to Parkland?


MicahJava said:
So you don't read. You should still understand the value of one theory having more evidence than the other.
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You mean the Oswald-did-it case still takes precedence over the inane speculations of conspiracy theorists like David Lifton?

Thanks for that admission.

Hank
 
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So... let’s cut away all the flab and the silly name calling. The majority of posters here simply seem to be stating:

There is no evidence that passes the benchmark required for them to believe the autopsy lasted much longer than midnight.

There is nothing suspicious about the paperwork being completed some time later.

The observable records of the autopsy, and medical evidence supports the WC findings.

Testimony should be tested against the Objective and Documentary records, not vice versa, due to the limitation of subjective human memory.

Even IF it were shown the autopsy continued later, and maximum weight were placed upon the outlying interpretations of the objective evidence, that does not support or suggest the plethora of contradictory “theories” that have previously been stated. Proving the known timeline wrong does not equate to proving another correct.
 
The evidence for the timeline may provide the best explaination for the reports of the autopsy pathologists discussing, examining, and probing the traceotomy throat wound as a bullet hole: Sibert and O'Neil could have just departed the autopsy before that became an issue. Then a lie was formulated that the doctors were informed about the throat wound later in the day of 11/23.
 
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MicahJava said:
The evidence for the timeline may provide the best explaination for the reports of the autopsy pathologists discussing, examining, and probing the traceotomy throat wound as a bullet hole: Sibert and O'Neil could have just departed the autopsy before that became an issue. Then a lie was formulated that the doctors were informed about the throat wound later in the day of 11/23.
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So a full fringe reset is the argument you're advancing now?

All the above was explored in depth months previous to this.

You punted.

You must hold the NFL record for punts, in fact.

You punted here, too, ignoring the post entirely.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12131162&postcount=3328

It pointed out the logical conclusion of your prior argument:"reductio ad absurdum"

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
The evidence for the timeline may provide the best explaination for the reports of the autopsy pathologists discussing, examining, and probing the traceotomy throat wound as a bullet hole: Sibert and O'Neil could have just departed the autopsy before that became an issue. Then a lie was formulated that the doctors were informed about the throat wound later in the day of 11/23.
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What's the point of the lie again?

To cover up a body alteration theory that hadn't been invented yet, and wouldn't be invented until David Lifton twisted himself into a pretzel trying to justify a conspiracy in the 1970s?

And they came up with this lie within 24 hours of the President's death?

Did they possess time travel?

Hank
 
MicahJava said:
The evidence for the timeline may provide the best explaination for the reports of the autopsy pathologists discussing, examining, and probing the traceotomy throat wound as a bullet hole: Sibert and O'Neil could have just departed the autopsy before that became an issue. Then a lie was formulated that the doctors were informed about the throat wound later in the day of 11/23.
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The reports are wrong, it's that easy.

The three attending pathologists have never changed their story about the throat wound. If they had probed it they would have been able to trace it out the hole in the back. We know the throat wound was an exit wound because of the fiber evidence from the shirt AND tie which back this up.

If there was a cover-up then why admit to calling Parkland to ask about the throat wound?

Why have none of the Kennedy people ever brought this up? They had someone with the body from Love Field to the Rotunda, someone reliable would have said something by now.
 
HSienzant said:
So a full fringe reset is the argument you're advancing now?

All the above was explored in depth months previous to this.

You punted.

You must hold the NFL record for punts, in fact.

You punted here, too, ignoring the post entirely.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12131162&postcount=3328

It pointed out the logical conclusion of your prior argument:"reductio ad absurdum"

Hank
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Hank, in case you are not sure, so far I have only been discussing the timeline of the later stages of the autopsy and the reconstruction by the Gawler's funeral team (who provided the Mahogany casket to replace the bronze casket, which was deemed unfit because it had a damaged handle).

"Body alteration" usually refers to theories involving major surgical alterations of the body before the photographs and X-rays were taken. Whether the autopsy pathologists discovered that a bullet wound in the throat obscured by the tracheotomy while the autopsy was in progress, or the next day when it was too late is a different issue.
 
MicahJava said:
"Body alteration" usually refers to theories involving major surgical alterations of the body before the photographs and X-rays were taken.
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Which never happened.


Whether the autopsy pathologists discovered that a bullet wound in the throat obscured by the tracheotomy while the autopsy was in progress, or the next day when it was too late is a different issue.
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It's a non-issue. It happened just the way they said it did.
 
MicahJava said:
Hank, in case you are not sure, so far I have only been discussing the timeline of the later stages of the autopsy and the reconstruction by the Gawler's funeral team (who provided the Mahogany casket to replace the bronze casket, which was deemed unfit because it had a damaged handle). (emphasis added)
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No, that's not true. You have brought up a lot of non-issues since you first signed on here. And in every case, you've abandoned those issues and moved on to other issues when your arguments were exposed as nonsense and not in accordance with the facts.

Six months ago you weren't talking about the timeline whatsoever. You were making claims about the wound in JFK head that you simply didn't understand:
July 2nd, 2017: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11905090&postcount=842

After all that was explained to you extensively and repeatedly, you simply changed the subject. You punted.

Nine months ago (April 2nd, 2017) you still weren't talking about the timeline. You were telling us what you saw on a x-ray.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11782221&postcount=2964

You punted there as well.

There were no posts in the predecessor thread between December 8th, 2016 and February 15th, 2017, so I can't do "A year ago today" but when you posted on March 9th, 2017 you brought up a supposed witness talking about the EOP wound (external occipital protuberance) here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11749838&postcount=2316

You dropped that too. You punted.

Don't you remember also arguing about the bullet found at Parkland and claiming it wasn't the bullet found in evidence?

Punt.

And of course, elsewhere you argued that forensic pathologists weren't qualified to read x-rays (punt), that the paperwork linking Oswald to the rifle is faked (punt), that the first shot came after Zapruder frame 190 (punt), that the autopsy doctors thought the shot that hit JFK in the back of the head exited the throat (punt), that Dale Myers recreation wasn't accurate (punt), that the wound was in the cowlick area (punt), that Dr. Burkley thought there were two head shots:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11749838&postcount=2316

Punt.

That CE399 should have suffered more damage if it struck both JFK and Connally:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11766334&postcount=2698

Punt.

That the back wound was shallow, according to the autopsy:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11766867&postcount=2708

Punt.

All nonsense. All claimed by you. All abandoned by you. You have punted repeatedly, exactly as I claimed. And contrary to your above assertion, you have so far NOT "only been discussing the timeline of the later stages of the autopsy".

You have flitted from claim to claim, abandoning one and picking up another, then going back to the earlier claims months later, pretending they weren't already disproven, and trying to start the discussion anew, as if none of the previous discussion had taken place.

And now you're doing it again, with the autopsy timeline. All that was previously discussed, and exposed as nonsense.

A fringe reset is what you seek.



MicahJava said:
"Body alteration" usually refers to theories involving major surgical alterations of the body before the photographs and X-rays were taken.
Click to expand...

Hey, no kidding. I read Lifton's book when it was first published, and saw the problem with his thesis immediately:
Who altered Connally's wounds?
Lifton won't touch this. Neither will any other body alteration fantasist. Including you.

A reminder that you claimed Sibert and O'Neill might have lied to discredit body alteration theories here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12130571

You brought up body alteration. Not me.



MicahJava said:
Whether the autopsy pathologists discovered that a bullet wound in the throat obscured by the tracheotomy while the autopsy was in progress, or the next day when it was too late is a different issue.
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One you just raised immediately above, claiming without any evidence that the autopsy doctors were lying about when they found out about the throat wound. And that Sibert and O'Neill were lying as well. It's amazing how many people must be lying if you insist on a conspiracy in the JFK assassination. Just within the last few days you've suggested the autopsy doctors and two FBI agents lied.

And you brought up body alteration as the reason for the FBI agents to be lying.

So it's not true "so far I have only been discussing the timeline of the later stages of the autopsy".

And of course, you ignored the problems I pointed out with that argument here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12131162&postcount=3328

It pointed out the logical conclusion of your prior argument:"reductio ad absurdum"

Keep ignoring it. It proves my point.

Every time you're faced with the facts, you punt.

Hank
 
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HSienzant said:
No, that's not true. You have brought up a lot of non-issues since you first signed on here. And in every case, you've abandoned those issues and moved on to other issues when your arguments were exposed as nonsense and not in accordance with the facts.

Six months ago you weren't talking about the timeline whatsoever. You were making claims about the wound in JFK head that you simply didn't understand:
July 2nd, 2017: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11905090&postcount=842

After all that was explained to you extensively and repeatedly, you simply changed the subject. You punted.

Nine months ago (April 2nd, 2017) you still weren't talking about the timeline. You were telling us what you saw on a x-ray.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11782221&postcount=2964

You punted there as well.

There were no posts in the predecessor thread between December 8th, 2016 and February 15th, 2017, so I can't do "A year ago today" but when you posted on March 9th, 2017 you brought up a supposed witness talking about the EOP wound (external occipital protuberance) here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11749838&postcount=2316

You dropped that too. You punted.

Don't you remember also arguing about the bullet found at Parkland and claiming it wasn't the bullet found in evidence?

Punt.

And of course, elsewhere you argued that forensic pathologists weren't qualified to read x-rays (punt), that the paperwork linking Oswald to the rifle is faked (punt), that the first shot came after Zapruder frame 190 (punt), that the autopsy doctors thought the shot that hit JFK in the back of the head exited the throat (punt), that Dale Myers recreation wasn't accurate (punt), that the wound was in the cowlick area (punt), that Dr. Burkley thought there were two head shots:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11749838&postcount=2316

Punt.

That CE399 should have suffered more damage if it struck both JFK and Connally:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11766334&postcount=2698

Punt.

That the back wound was shallow, according to the autopsy:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11766867&postcount=2708

Punt.

All nonsense. All claimed by you. All abandoned by you. You have punted repeatedly, exactly as I claimed. And contrary to your above assertion, you have so far NOT "only been discussing the timeline of the later stages of the autopsy".

You have flitted from claim to claim, abandoning one and picking up another, then going back to the earlier claims months later, pretending they weren't already disproven, and trying to start the discussion anew, as if none of the previous discussion had taken place.

And now you're doing it again, with the autopsy timeline. All that was previously discussed, and exposed as nonsense.

A fringe reset is what you seek.





Hey, no kidding. I read Lifton's book when it was first published, and saw the problem with his thesis immediately:
Who altered Connally's wounds?
Lifton won't touch this. Neither will any other body alteration fantasist. Including you.

A reminder that you claimed Sibert and O'Neill might have lied to discredit body alteration theories here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12130571

You brought up body alteration. Not me.





One you just raised immediately above, claiming without any evidence that the autopsy doctors were lying about when they found out about the throat wound. And that Sibert and O'Neill were lying as well. It's amazing how many people must be lying if you insist on a conspiracy in the JFK assassination. Just within the last few days you've suggested the autopsy doctors and two FBI agents lied.

And you brought up body alteration as the reason for the FBI agents to be lying.

So it's not true "so far I have only been discussing the timeline of the later stages of the autopsy".

And of course, you ignored the problems I pointed out with that argument here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12131162&postcount=3328

It pointed out the logical conclusion of your prior argument:"reductio ad absurdum"

Keep ignoring it. It proves my point.

Every time you're faced with the facts, you punt.

Hank
Click to expand...

Hank, you should keep links to facts and evidence in a convenient folder on your computer instead of links to my posts that you rebutted in your imagination alone. And it comes off as clueless when you bring up off-topic issues like body alteration and Lifton's theories rather than the content of the interviews he conducted, etc.
 
MicahJava said:
Hank, you should keep links to facts and evidence in a convenient folder on your computer instead of links to my posts that you rebutted in your imagination alone. And it comes off as clueless when you bring up off-topic issues like body alteration and Lifton's theories rather than the content of the interviews he conducted, etc.
Click to expand...

Lifton's interviews were skewed to support his theory that the body was altered to frame Oswald, and that is why they are a waste of time.
 
MicahJava said:
Hank, you should keep links to facts and evidence in a convenient folder on your computer instead of links to my posts that you rebutted in your imagination alone.
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Another punt by you.

The facts and evidence are available online. For example, the interviews conducted by the Warren Commission are readily available in a number of places.

There's a search function here. And to think I would bother with keeping links to your posts on my computer! Hilarious. And I note you didn't bother to rebut the content of those posts any, you merely pretend I made no meaningful points.


MicahJava said:
And it comes off as clueless when you bring up off-topic issues like body alteration and Lifton's theories rather than the content of the interviews he conducted, etc.
Click to expand...

Another punt by you.

I'll remind you once again that it was YOU who brought up body alteration when you alluded to it regarding Sibert & O'Neill, claiming they may have lied in their testimony. You did that most recently here:
MicahJava said:
Comparing their statements to other evidence and witnesses, it seems that they may have a personal motive for adding details to their stories that conveniently discredit various theories like body alteration/early throat wound discovery.
Click to expand...

So when you're slinging around claims like "clueless when you bring up off-topic issues like body alteration", double-check your coverage on your glass house first and foremost. Check your insurance policy now.

And I'll remind you once more that you have responded to none of the points I made in my prior posts in any meaningful fashion. We're still waiting for you, for example, to explain WHO ALTERED CONNALLY'S WOUNDS:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12131162&postcount=3328

Hank
 
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HSienzant said:
No, that's not true. You have brought up a lot of non-issues since you first signed on here. And in every case, you've abandoned those issues and moved on to other issues when your arguments were exposed as nonsense and not in accordance with the facts.

Six months ago you weren't talking about the timeline whatsoever. You were making claims about the wound in JFK head that you simply didn't understand:
July 2nd, 2017: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11905090&postcount=842

After all that was explained to you extensively and repeatedly, you simply changed the subject. You punted.

Nine months ago (April 2nd, 2017) you still weren't talking about the timeline. You were telling us what you saw on a x-ray.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11782221&postcount=2964

You punted there as well.

There were no posts in the predecessor thread between December 8th, 2016 and February 15th, 2017, so I can't do "A year ago today" but when you posted on March 9th, 2017 you brought up a supposed witness talking about the EOP wound (external occipital protuberance) here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11749838&postcount=2316

You dropped that too. You punted.

Don't you remember also arguing about the bullet found at Parkland and claiming it wasn't the bullet found in evidence?

Punt.

And of course, elsewhere you argued that forensic pathologists weren't qualified to read x-rays (punt), that the paperwork linking Oswald to the rifle is faked (punt), that the first shot came after Zapruder frame 190 (punt), that the autopsy doctors thought the shot that hit JFK in the back of the head exited the throat (punt), that Dale Myers recreation wasn't accurate (punt), that the wound was in the cowlick area (punt), that Dr. Burkley thought there were two head shots:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11749838&postcount=2316

Punt.

That CE399 should have suffered more damage if it struck both JFK and Connally:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11766334&postcount=2698

Punt.

That the back wound was shallow, according to the autopsy:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11766867&postcount=2708

Punt.

All nonsense. All claimed by you. All abandoned by you. You have punted repeatedly, exactly as I claimed. And contrary to your above assertion, you have so far NOT "only been discussing the timeline of the later stages of the autopsy".

You have flitted from claim to claim, abandoning one and picking up another, then going back to the earlier claims months later, pretending they weren't already disproven, and trying to start the discussion anew, as if none of the previous discussion had taken place.

And now you're doing it again, with the autopsy timeline. All that was previously discussed, and exposed as nonsense.

A fringe reset is what you seek.





Hey, no kidding. I read Lifton's book when it was first published, and saw the problem with his thesis immediately:
Who altered Connally's wounds?
Lifton won't touch this. Neither will any other body alteration fantasist. Including you.

A reminder that you claimed Sibert and O'Neill might have lied to discredit body alteration theories here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12130571

You brought up body alteration. Not me.





One you just raised immediately above, claiming without any evidence that the autopsy doctors were lying about when they found out about the throat wound. And that Sibert and O'Neill were lying as well. It's amazing how many people must be lying if you insist on a conspiracy in the JFK assassination. Just within the last few days you've suggested the autopsy doctors and two FBI agents lied.

And you brought up body alteration as the reason for the FBI agents to be lying.

So it's not true "so far I have only been discussing the timeline of the later stages of the autopsy".

And of course, you ignored the problems I pointed out with that argument here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12131162&postcount=3328

It pointed out the logical conclusion of your prior argument:"reductio ad absurdum"

Keep ignoring it. It proves my point.

Every time you're faced with the facts, you punt.

Hank
Click to expand...

Wow, Hank! I didn't realize how much he runs away! This is a great handy list to refer back to.

MicahJava, address the points in Hank's post.
 
HSienzant said:
Another punt by you.

I'll remind you once again that it was YOU who brought up body alteration when you alluded to it regarding Sibert & O'Neill, claiming they may have lied in their testimony. You did that most recently here:


So when you're slinging around claims like "clueless when you bring up off-topic issues like body alteration", double-check your coverage on your glass house first and foremost. Check your insurance policy now.

And I'll remind you once more that you have responded to none of the points I made in my prior posts in any meaningful fashion. We're still waiting for you, for example, to explain WHO ALTERED CONNALLY'S WOUNDS:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12131162&postcount=3328

Hank
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One example I was thinking of, from a comment posted by Lifton on the alt assassination jfk Google group:

O'Neill's acquaintance was one Wayne Cook, a local businessman who ran Hilltop Orchards. His wife was the CBS anchor person for the local CBS station in Hartford, Conn. (as I recall).

c) After the publication of Best Evidence, Cooke contacted me, told me he had read Best Evidence, and told me of his friendship with O'Neill. (For example: their children played basketball together. . something like that). He offered to question O'Neill about anything I thought was relevant, and call me back, immediately, with his answers. We did this a number of times, and my questions mostly concerned the autopsy. But from the outset, one matter was volunteered, which had nothing to do with any question that I suggested be asked.

d) Wayne told me that when he discussed the autopsy with O'Neill, O'Neill maintained--repeatedly and emphatically, that there was no brain (!). "Wayne, there was no brain!" said O'Neill, more than once. It was a line I repeated in our conversations, which occurred back in 1992.


e)O'Neill had a tremendous --and very personal--antipathy towards me, and Best Evidence. He was furious at the notion he and his FBI partner (Sibert) had been mislead on the night of November 22, 1963, or that they had been improperly kept out of the morgue (as their own FBI report indicates). He didn't just "disagree"; he was furious with me personally, calling me all kinds of names, etc.

f) After the ARRB was created, and Doug Horne telephoned me (this was August 1995, when he first joined the staff), we had many telephone conversations, particularly when it became clear that witnesses would be called. I told Doug Horne about the Wayne Cooke situation, but--possibly because there were so many things on the "to do" list--Wayne Cooke slipped between the cracks. He just was never called. So the record of what Wayne Cooke said that O'Neill said is one that I have, from my phone calls with Cooke.

g) When O'Neill was called to testify before the ARRB (in 1997), he said that only a part of the brain was there, but he seemed to deliberately contradict what was stated bu Paul O'Connor, as set forth in Chapter 26 of Best Evidence. And yet Doug acknowledged to me privately, and more than once, the anger--even hatred--that O'Neill expressed towards me and my work. This is one area where I believe that the ARRB really dropped the ball. Cooke should have been called, or the proper affidavits taken. Then O'Neill should have been challenged, when under oath, about these reports that he repeatedly maintained, back around 1992, that there was no brain. That that was simply a fact of the Bethesda autopsy; and that he repeatedly said: "Wayne, there was no brain!".
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Reminder: Francis X. O'Neill started saying that he stayed at the autopsy to view the morticians restoration and dressing procedures when he was interviewed by the HSCA in 1978. That's 15 years later, not just 33+ years later as with the ARRB and William Law.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=348#relPageId=8&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=628#relPageId=8&tab=page

Or in this case "just prior to the dressing, before the morticians were through". But we know from Robert Frazier's documents that this supposed honest recollection is completely false.
 
MicahJava said:
One example I was thinking of, from a comment posted by Lifton on the alt assassination jfk Google group:
Click to expand...

O'Neill's acquaintance was one Wayne Cook, a local businessman who ran Hilltop Orchards. His wife was the CBS anchor person for the local CBS station in Hartford, Conn. (as I recall).
Click to expand...

Oh. My. God.

Lifton's "source" was a guy who knew a guy.


After the publication of Best Evidence, Cooke contacted me, told me he had read Best Evidence, and told me of his friendship with O'Neill. (For example: their children played basketball together. . something like that). He offered to question O'Neill about anything I thought was relevant, and call me back, immediately, with his answers. We did this a number of times, and my questions mostly concerned the autopsy.
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We're not talking about an interview under controlled conditions, tape-recorded professionally. It was more like, "So, hey, O'Neil, how about that autopsy thing, am I right?"...THIS IS LIFTON'S SOURCE.

Wayne told me that when he discussed the autopsy with O'Neill, O'Neill maintained--repeatedly and emphatically, that there was no brain (!). "Wayne, there was no brain!" said O'Neill, more than once. It was a line I repeated in our conversations, which occurred back in 1992.
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Need to point out that Lifton NEVER HEARD O'NEAL SAY THESE WORDS.

This is your accepted base-line of evidence?

I told Doug Horne about the Wayne Cooke situation, but--possibly because there were so many things on the "to do" list--Wayne Cooke slipped between the cracks. He just was never called. So the record of what Wayne Cooke said that O'Neill said is one that I have, from my phone calls with Cooke.
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He didn't fall through the cracks, Cooke was not at the autopsy, and was not a witness to anything that actually happened.

This is not evidence of any kind. This is not even quality hearsay.
 
MicahJava said:
Reminder: Francis X. O'Neill started saying that he stayed at the autopsy to view the morticians restoration and dressing procedures when he was interviewed by the HSCA in 1978. That's 15 years later, not just 33+ years later as with the ARRB and William Law.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=348#relPageId=8&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=628#relPageId=8&tab=page

Or in this case "just prior to the dressing, before the morticians were through". But we know from Robert Frazier's documents that this supposed honest recollection is completely false.
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Yes. It. Is.

You got it! You finally got it!

Recollections can be false (GASP!).

Recollections aren't always true and don't imply a cover-up if they conflict with hard evidence or contemporaneous documents. Earlier recollections are more likely to be true than ones made more than a decade later.

They don't have to be deliberate lies - they can just be false.

Now, since we have photos of the brain in JFK's head taken at the very start of the autopsy, remember that when citing O'Neill's recollection that there was no brain in the head.

Or go back and look at literally almost any of your posts over the past year. They almost all rely on recollections made to the ARRB or HSCA. They almost all contradict the contemporaneous evidence. They almost all are wrong.

Hank
 
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Axxman300 said:
Oh. My. God.

Lifton's "source" was a guy who knew a guy.




We're not talking about an interview under controlled conditions, tape-recorded professionally. It was more like, "So, hey, O'Neil, how about that autopsy thing, am I right?"...THIS IS LIFTON'S SOURCE.



Need to point out that Lifton NEVER HEARD O'NEAL SAY THESE WORDS.

This is your accepted base-line of evidence?



He didn't fall through the cracks, Cooke was not at the autopsy, and was not a witness to anything that actually happened.

This is not evidence of any kind. This is not even quality hearsay.
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:thumbsup::thumbsup:

And the reason Lifton thinks Cooke should have been called, of course, is Lifton's ego. MicahJava was even kind enough to quote it for us:

When O'Neill was called to testify before the ARRB (in 1997), he said that only a part of the brain was there, but he seemed to deliberately contradict what was stated by Paul O'Connor, as set forth in Chapter 26 of Best Evidence. And yet Doug acknowledged to me privately, and more than once, the anger--even hatred--that O'Neill expressed towards me and my work. This is one area where I believe that the ARRB really dropped the ball. Cooke should have been called, or the proper affidavits taken. Then O'Neill should have been challenged, when under oath, about these reports that he repeatedly maintained, back around 1992, that there was no brain. That that was simply a fact of the Bethesda autopsy; and that he repeatedly said: "Wayne, there was no brain!".
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It's almost like Lifton has never gone fishing, and never heard a fish story (most CTs are like this). A guy may expand on his role at a party or among friends, and the fish gets bigger and bigger, and the one that got away was the size of a small whale. But put him under oath, where he's sworn to tell the truth, and the story changes. That "whale" he mentioned to his friends was truly a minnow.

And therefore a conspiracy. "Somebody got to him", "he lied under oath", and the like, become their currency of the day. They never consider the BS to be that story told among friends.

We've seen it all throughout this case. Robert Knudsen told his family for YEARS he took the autopsy photos (he was the official White House photographer, after all). He was believed. They had no reason to disbelieve him. But there's a known list of the people at the autopsy, and Knudsen wasn't one of them. He was nowhere near the autopsy. He made up a story to inflate his own importance and told his family that story.

Big deal.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/knudsen.txt

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
One example I was thinking of, from a comment posted by Lifton on the alt assassination jfk Google group:
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Everyone else here thinks Lifton is a moron. And for good reason. I cannot fathom why you cite Lifton given that you have dissed him in the past. Either you buy Lifton's BS or you don't. Pick one.
 
HSienzant said:
:thumbsup::thumbsup:

And the reason Lifton thinks Cooke should have been called, of course, is Lifton's ego. MicahJava was even kind enough to quote it for us:
It's almost like Lifton has never gone fishing, and never heard a fish story (most CTs are like this). A guy may expand on his role at a party or among friends, and the fish gets bigger and bigger, and the one that got away was the size of a small whale. But put him under oath, where he's sworn to tell the truth, and the story changes. That "whale" he mentioned to his friends was truly a minnow.

And therefore a conspiracy. "Somebody got to him", "he lied under oath", and the like, become their currency of the day. They never consider the BS to be that story told among friends.

We've seen it all throughout this case. Robert Knudsen told his family for YEARS he took the autopsy photos (he was the official White House photographer, after all). He was believed. They had no reason to disbelieve him. But there's a known list of the people at the autopsy, and Knudsen wasn't one of them. He was nowhere near the autopsy. He made up a story to inflate his own importance and told his family that story.

Big deal.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/knudsen.txt

Hank
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Hearsay is not admissible in a court of law for a good reason.

We don't know what the conditions or circumstances were when Cooke asked his questions. Was he sitting in the stands at their kid's basketball game, were they at a bar, a cookout, or what?

The other issue is that you and I would discuss something that happened at work differently in a casual setting than we would tell the story in an official capacity. We would be cautious about off-hand, and off the cuff remarks. In a casual setting we'd have a huge margin of error to recount our story, but under the canopy of official questioning we would be as exact as we could.

When O'Neil said, "There was no brain" what is missing is the question and the context and the questions leading to the comment (if he ever said it). The next problem is weather Cooke understood the answer, or interpreted the answer. Cooke was obviously s believer in a conspiracy and cover-up, and anything he reported should automatically be suspect.
 
RoboTimbo said:
Answer the points in Hank's post.
MicahJava said:
What points? Explain in your words and only your words.
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And yet another punt!

Why does he have to rephrase my points in his own words for you to acknowledge those points and respond to them?

Just respond to my points. You'll save everyone a lot of time if you drop the phony delaying tactic.

Your response here makes no sense whatsoever and is clearly just a way to avoid responding to the points made.

For your convenience, I am providing the link to the post in question, containing the points in question, here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12135493&postcount=3338

Hank
 
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I actually agree with most of the criticism of the Wayne Cooke hearsay information, at least as far as what we've been given so far and not what might be in Lifton's new book FINAL CHARADE. The part I was interested in is where Francis X. O'Neill became familiar with conspiracy sources such as Lifton, and had a very negative opinion towards them.
 
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MicahJava said:
I actually agree with most of the criticism of the Wayne Cooke hearsay information, at least as far as what we've been given so far and not what might be in Lifton's new book FINAL CHARADE. The part I was interested in is where Francis X. O'Neill became familiar with conspiracy sources such as Lifton, and had a very negative opinion towards them.
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No, that's not what you said earlier. You ascribed specific motives to the FBI agents' testimony, suggesting that Sibert & O'Neill LIED to destroy Lifton's body alteration thesis:
MicahJava said:
It's up in the air when Sibert and O'Neill departed before the 2 AM teletype, the time they left the autopsy room isn't in their report and they only remembered it was "around midnight". Comparing their statements to other evidence and witnesses, it seems that they may have a personal motive for adding details to their stories that conveniently discredit various theories like body alteration/early throat wound discovery.
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So it seems from here you've already reached your conclusion, and now are just searching for a way to justify it. Verdict first, evidence second? Sounds like something from Alice Through the Looking Glass.

Besides, if you're truly interested in "where Francis X. O'Neill became familiar with conspiracy sources such as Lifton, and had a very negative opinion towards them", you have some great resources right here on this board that you have yet to avail yourself of (myself and other posters on this board, who were previously convinced of a conspiracy).

I've previously described to you how a college friend related to me how he saw Lifton on a morning television show (like the "TODAY" show) and how Lifton made some (what he thought were) good points.

After he explained to me what Lifton's claims were, I told you how I destroyed Lifton's entire thesis with four words -- "WHO ALTERED CONNALLY'S WOUNDS?", and how he saw the flaw in Lifton's argument immediately.

(Lifton's thesis is that the assassination wasn't carried out by a shooter from behind, it was carried out by shooters in front, and then other members of the conspiracy - with medical training - altered the wounds to make it look like shots from behind. In the process, they enlarged the wounds inflicted on the front of the President's body while extracting the assassin's bullets, making the entry wounds look like exits, and created fake wounds on the back of the President's body, to make fake entry wounds that would deceive the autopsy doctors and make them think the shooter was behind the President).

No only does he ignore the fact that wounds inflicted on a dead body look nothing like wounds inflicted on a living person, he ignored the fact that there was another victim in the limousine with wounds that pointed to a shooter from above and behind... the Governor of Texas, John Connally.

His argument mandates that the Governor's wounds were altered as well, because like the President's wounds, the Governor's wounds likewise point to a shooter from behind, while Lifton claims all the shooters were actually in front of the President (and hence, the Governor).

He never explained why, if all the shooters were in front of the President and the Governor, why the Governor's wounds pointed to a shooter from behind. His book was published over three decades ago, and he has yet to explain it.

He can't. Neither can you. Neither can anyone else. Lifton's thesis makes no sense on its face. It's an indefensible theory that conflicts with the known facts of the case, and you can't defend it, so you have to date just ignored the criticisms of it.

Unless and until you can get past that hurdle and explain away the problem with the Governor's wounds establishing a shooter above and behind the limo, I too will have "a very negative opinion towards" ... "conspiracy sources such as Lifton".

So would any sentient being not sucked into the conspiracy whirlpool.

I also previously pointed out how conspiracy sources like Mark Lane, Harold Weisberg, and Sylvia Meagher had me convinced of a conspiracy in the mid-to-late 1960s, all through the 1970s. It wasn't until the early 1980s that I independently went back to their source material -- the Warren Commission 26 volumes of testimony and evidence -- and started comparing what they said versus what those volumes contained. The differences were stark, and established that contrary to their claims, it wasn't the Warren Commission that was selecting out-of-context claims from the record to argue for Oswald's guilt, it was they who were selecting out-of-context claims from the record to argue for a conspiracy.

They were lying up and down, taking advantage of the death of a President to sell books and inflate their own bank accounts.

Perhaps O'Neill had "a very negative opinion towards them" because that very negative opinion is entirely deserved.

Hank

PS: Did you ever wonder about why the conspiracy authors title their books in such a revealing manner? David Lifton has his FINAL CHARADE (on top of his earlier charade), Mark Lane had his RUSH TO JUDGMENT (he wrote his first published piece arguing for Oswald's innocence less than a month after the assassination, and before he had interviewed any witnesses or even been to Dallas), Harold Weisberg had his WHITEWASH (where he ignores or tries to explain away all the evidence of Oswald's guilt), Robert Groden and Harrison Livingstone had their HIGH TREASON (where they accumulated every claim of conspiracy into one book regardless of the veracity of the claim), etc...
 
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Reminder that you still need to address the points I made earlier here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12135493&postcount=3338

You punted away, addressing none of the points here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12136452&postcount=3339

RoboTimbo asked you to address them here:
RoboTimbo said:
MicahJava, address the points in Hank's post.
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and again here:
RoboTimbo said:
Answer the points in Hank's post.
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You punted away again, asking RoboTimbo to paraphrase all my points here:
MicahJava said:
What points? Explain in your words and only your words.
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I pointed out why that was a meaningless request here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12137409&postcount=3353

Perhaps you might want to try to advance the ball on your next possession?

Remember you can't score any points by punting.

Hank
 
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MicahJava said:
I actually agree with most of the criticism of the Wayne Cooke hearsay information, at least as far as what we've been given so far and not what might be in Lifton's new book FINAL CHARADE. The part I was interested in is where Francis X. O'Neill became familiar with conspiracy sources such as Lifton, and had a very negative opinion towards them.
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Perhaps the best course for you is to get your nose out of the CT library you have, then burn it kissing your foolishly spent dollars and start over again reading the WC.
 
bknight said:
Perhaps the best course for you is to get your nose out of the CT library you have, then burn it kissing your foolishly spent dollars and start over again reading the WC.
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I am often more than willing to spend a few dollars to order a book online if it means being able to know and present one more piece of evidence, even if it's just a couple of paragraphs I'm interested in. I don't know what your researching habits are. If you think you can keep the facts straighter than me, then maybe we can have a special one-one-one debate thread about the JFK forensic evidence.
 
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Hank, all you did is link to older posts of yours and mine and claim that you have refuted them. And you attack Lifton's overall theories as if they have anything to do with the raw evidence he collected. He found the 11/29/1963 George Barnum diary which shows the autopsy doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy.

If a one-on-one debate thread with only our comments sounds easier to manage these subjects, say so because that sounds interesting.
 
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Lisa Pease tweeted this :D

WhUvR7H.jpg
 
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