Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Delphic Oracle said:
But "only 2 sex cells = only 2 sexes" fails on observation if their own definition of sexes still leaves 0.2% unaccounted for.
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I don’t see any need to strictly classify everyone into one sex or another, unless we’re talking about the process of sexual reproduction itself, which is indeed binary. People who cannot produce either spermatozoa or ova are (sadly) sidelined from the endless game of sexual selectionWP (in terms of biological fitness) whether their phenotypes exhibit traits which are typically male, female, both, or neither.

(Alas, none of this gives us insight into the topic of the thread, since trans folks would still exist even if all intersex folks were abducted by aliens and/or raptured by Jesus.)

Delphic Oracle said:
And so this "study" kinda means nothing to me.
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Which study?
 
d4m10n said:
I don’t see any need to strictly classify everyone into one sex or another, unless we’re talking about the process of sexual reproduction itself, which is indeed binary. People who cannot produce either spermatozoa or ova are (sadly) sidelined from the endless game of sexual selectionWP (in terms of biological fitness) whether their phenotypes exhibit traits which are typically male, female, both, or neither.

(Alas, none of this gives us insight into the topic of the thread, since trans folks would still exist even if all intersex folks were abducted by aliens and/or raptured by Jesus.)


Which study?
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Sorry, statement, op-ed, what-have-you.

Again I go back to a lot of the inability to work a lot of these things out is the limited idea of what combinations of (predominantly) binary attributes are "correct." This take on it reduces once again all the way back down to "ova vs. sperm." It's fine to even take that as a general guideline.

The problem is a whole system of social rules (and laws) designed around that sole thing as determining whether you line up to the left or right, regardless of whether it has any context in regards to the thing being lined up for because "we just kinda typically assume this one thing almost always means 800 other things."

Sports could come up with competitive grades based on body mass, testosterone levels, and cardiopulmonary metrics, etc. Bathrooms probably just going to require us to grow the hell up and go unisex.

Maybe those are it, maybe not.

But my bigger point is, how about if we just absolutely have to do some binary segregating in some areas, let's have the attributes actually important to the issue at hand be the basis for deciding rather than "you produce sperm=you are male=you have to wrestle this guy with 3x your testosterone because we made these rules up by making a whole series of extrapolations that aren't relevant to what produces good matches." Or "you produce sperm=you should dress utilitarian and act kinda gruff=go to the men's room=no, I mean it, behave and present as masculine in there, do you want to get jumped and beaten senseless, dude?"
 
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Meadmaker said:
Because I can't **** thoughts.
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Meadmaker said:
Because I can't **** thoughts.
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So much of this comes down to intercourse, doesn't it? I'm also guessing most people against trans athletes competing with the group they identify would also not have sex with a transperson that identifies with their preferred partner gender.
 
BobTheCoward said:
So much of this comes down to intercourse, doesn't it?
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Have you ever met a human before?

I'm also guessing most people against trans athletes competing with the group they identify would also not have sex with a transperson that identifies with their preferred partner gender.
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Strangely enough, straight men don't want to have sex with men, and gay men don't want to have sex with women.

Take a moment to absorb that, it can be pretty shocking news.
 
The Atheist said:
Heck, you really do have an allergy to facts, don't you?
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Irony.

You brought it up. By all means, explain what it is. I look forward to correcting you.

If you think the "wage gap" indicates that women are paid less than men by the hour for the same job, then you have no idea what the number in question (77%) means. What it means is that men who work full time make more than women in a year, on average. That's not a wage gap, it's an earnings difference, one that hours worked accounts for half of. And that's not even getting into one's choice of career and other factors.

I'm sure women are, in some places, paid less for the same work, but that's not shown by the numbers often cited as a "wage gap".
 
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Ziggurat said:
Have you ever met a human before?



Strangely enough, straight men don't want to have sex with men, and gay men don't want to have sex with women.

Take a moment to absorb that, it can be pretty shocking news.
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Good thing that having sex with a transwoman is not having sex with a gay man.
 
BobTheCoward said:
So much of this comes down to intercourse, doesn't it?
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So much of everything we do comes down to intercourse.


The connection between intercourse and high school track meets is pretty indirect, though.

As for who has sex with whom, yeah, intercourse is a pretty big deal, and what's between your legs really matters, a lot. Rolfe has brought us a lot of updates over the years about stupid things trans activists say about "cotton ceilings" and other absurdities of modern Life.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Good thing that having sex with a transwoman is not having sex with a gay man.
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What do you imagine the difference is between having sex with a transwoman and sex with a man (straight or gay)? If the transwoman had a sex change operation, the difference may be quite significant, but if they haven't, how is it any different?
 
Ziggurat said:
That article details how female hormone therapy changes sexual response in males. That hardly plays into your position that you simply are whatever you declare yourself to be. And it sure as **** doesn't indicate that sex with a transwoman is the same as sex with a woman.
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Let me quote you real quick

What do you imagine the difference is between having sex with a transwoman and sex with a man (straight or gay)?
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So I answered the question

And then you wrote this

And it sure as **** doesn't indicate that sex with a transwoman is the same as sex with a woman.
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Hopefully you didn't strain your back moving those goalposts so far.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Let me quote you real quick



So I answered the question

And then you wrote this



Hopefully you didn't strain your back moving those goalposts so far.
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You seem to be confused. Let's go back a bit further:

Ziggurat said:
Strangely enough, straight men don't want to have sex with men, and gay men don't want to have sex with women.
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This is a statement that you haven't directly contested. Instead, you came up with this nonsequitor:

BobTheCoward said:
Good thing that having sex with a transwoman is not having sex with a gay man.
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First note that I didn't say straight men don't want to have sex with gay men, I said straight men don't want to have sex with men. In response to your nonsequitor, I asked you,

Ziggurat said:
What do you imagine the difference is between having sex with a transwoman and sex with a man (straight or gay)? If the transwoman had a sex change operation, the difference may be quite significant, but if they haven't, how is it any different?
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Note that this question does not actually presuppose that the answer is "none", as you seem to have assumed. But given that, according to you, any man can be a transwoman if he simply declares himself to be, then it's actually clear merely as a matter of YOUR definition that there can be zero difference between having sex with a transwoman and having sex with a man (gay or otherwise).

That's not the end of the story, of course, and my mention of those with sex change operations should have (but didn't) clue you in that I know that. Yes, in some cases it is different. Why? Because in some cases, transwomen are not simply men who have declared themselves to be women. In some cases, they have undergone medical procedures to alter their biology. And it should surprise no one that if you alter your biology in regards to sex, that sexual activity will change in response. Quelle suprise! But that's rather my point: biology matters, it's not simply an issue of self-declaration.

And your link backs me up, as it details how hormonal changes from medical intervention change sexual response. Those are valid answers to my question, but again, I wasn't expecting no answer at all. If you've altered your hormone profile from that of a male to that of a female, that creates changes which simply calling yourself a woman cannot produce. And to go back to my earlier observation that straight men don't want to have sex with men, well, your response still hasn't actually touched on that at all. In case you didn't notice, it discusses women having sex with transwomen.

And it's rather curious, isn't it, that transwomen seem more interested in sex with women than in sex with men.
 
Ziggurat said:
You seem to be confused. Let's go back a bit further:
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Then let me me clarify.

Having sex with a social transitioned woman is not like having sex with a male. Some it will, some it won't.

As a matter of reality, having sex with a woman is not like how you would have sex with all women.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Then let me me clarify.

Having sex with a social transitioned woman is not like having sex with a male.
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Actually, it's exactly the same, because, get this, they're still male. It may be different than sex with a typical male, but it is in fact still sex with a male.

And it sure as hell isn't like having sex with a female, which is what straight males want.
 
Ziggurat said:
Actually, it's exactly the same, because, get this, they're still male. It may be different than sex with a typical male, but it is in fact still sex with a male.

And it sure as hell isn't like having sex with a female, which is what straight males want.
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Get this, they are no longer male. No one is asking someone stimulate a man's penis, it is a woman's penis.
 
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BobTheCoward said:
Whatever the person identifying as male thinks it is for themselves.
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First, that sure as hell isn't what I mean by the word, or what the word has always meant in the past, so no, they are still male. You don't get to decide for everyone else that the definition will now change.

And second, your definition renders the word completely useless. It no longer conveys any information. You are choosing to be bad at communication.

https://www.xkcd.com/169/
https://www.xkcd.com/1860/
 
I'm loving the way some of the armchair experts are talking about sex with a trans woman, yet for certain have no experience of it, so are blowing it out their rear ends.

Ziggurat said:
And it sure as hell isn't like having sex with a female, which is what straight males want.
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How many trans women have you had sex with? How would you know?

Two other points:

1 - it may surprise you to know that many "straight" men have anal sex with women, and I don't think anyone's arguing anuses have a gender. Legs shut, from behind I doubt you or anyone else could tell what gender the person is.

2 - by far most men who have sex with trans women consider themselves firmly "not gay".

And yes, I have had sex with women, men and trans women.
 
theprestige said:
This is true, except for the part where they're still male in every way that matters, for attracting a sex partner.
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Utter nonsense.

Taking female hormones results in changes to the body that males don't have, and the vast majority of trans women take oestrogen.

The main reason trans women in NZ don't have GRS is because the waiting list is 40 years long. In USA, I imagine it's financially prohibitive for a marginalised sector of the population.
 
The Atheist said:
I'm loving the way some of the armchair experts are talking about sex with a trans woman, yet for certain have no experience of it, so are blowing it out their rear ends.



How many trans women have you had sex with? How would you know?

Two other points:

1 - it may surprise you to know that many "straight" men have anal sex with women, and I don't think anyone's arguing anuses have a gender. Legs shut, from behind I doubt you or anyone else could tell what gender the person is.

2 - by far most men who have sex with trans women consider themselves firmly "not gay".

And yes, I have had sex with women, men and trans women.
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Also, most time people spend aroused is not time spent engaged with a person's genitals.
 
The Atheist said:
How many trans women have you had sex with? How would you know?
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Seriously? You think I need to have sex with a transwoman in order to conclude that having sex with a penis is different than having sex with a vagina?

It’s true that I don’t know how close an artificial vagina is to a real vagina, but it takes no special expertise to know that a penis and a vagina are very different.
 
The Atheist said:
I'm loving the way some of the armchair experts are talking about sex with a trans woman, yet for certain have no experience of it, so are blowing it out their rear ends.
...
And yes, I have had sex with women, men and trans women.
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So you're not a straight man, but you claim expertise about the sexual desires of straight men.

By your own standards, you're full of it.
 
Ziggurat said:
Seriously? You think I need to have sex with a transwoman in order to conclude that having sex with a penis is different than having sex with a vagina?
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:dl:

Wow, and here was me thinking that old joke was just a joke, but some people live it.

What's the definition of a woman?

A life-support system for a ****.

Ziggurat said:
So you're not a straight man, but you claim expertise about the sexual desires of straight men.
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Nope, I didn't claim that at all.

I know lots of men who claim to be straight and I have a several friends who are long-term prostitutes catering to allegedly straight men and I'll take their word for it.

p0lka said:
I think it would be better if more people thought like that, rather than getting hung up on what bits people have.
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In the real world, outside of keyboards, I think that's generally what happens - people like what they like and deal with whatever that means.

This is worth repeating about now: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/
 
The Atheist said:
I know lots of men who claim to be straight and I have a several friends who are long-term prostitutes catering to allegedly straight men and I'll take their word for it.
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For what? What is “it”?

In the real world, outside of keyboards, I think that's generally what happens - people like what they like and deal with whatever that means.
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And in the real world, a lot of men like to have sex with a person with a vagina, not with a person with a penis.

This is worth repeating about now: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/
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Unless you want to claim that a man not wanting to have sex with a person with a penis is homophobia, then no, actually, that’s not worth repeating now.
 
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