d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3
- Thread starter Squeegee Beckenheim
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Equivocation. You can support trans rights without agreeing that trans women are women.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
You don't believe they happen?
Let's see...
In terms of safety, privacy, and independence, Self-Id of transwomen and forced acceptance into female spaces has resulted in:
- a genitally intact transwoman being allowed into a domestic violence shelter where that person proceeded to masturbate over the sleeping body of her female room mate
- a genitally intact transwoman sexual predator being placed in a female prison ward where she raped female prisoners with her female penis
- middle school and high school swim team members taking turns changing in a much smaller locker room because the genitally intact transwoman's right to be naked in the ladies locker room (regardless of any discomfort it caused) was viewed as more important than the girls right not to have male bodies in their locker room
- Several aestheticians being sued for refusing to wax a transwoman's balls and handle her penis
In terms of undermining progress, transwomen in general want
- to have access to scholarships and grants set aside to address inequities toward females in society
- qualify for female recognitions like "woman of the year" and similar accolades that bring attention to the value of females in the world
- count toward female quotas set by affirmative action and diversity objectives in areas where females are significantly underrepresented
- re-introducing the concept of "lady brain" which has been used to discriminate against women in science and business for hundreds of years, based on flimsy and immaterial science that has repeatedly shown to be non-determinitive and non-predictive of gender
- to compete against biological females in sports where physiology confers an unassailable advantage
In terms of erasing female identity, trans activists insist:
- sex is a social construct
- biological sex has nothing at all to do with a female identity
- the lived experience of females is unimportant as an aspect of female identity
- that the "essence of womanhood" is something internally felt that defies explanation and cannot be described or elaborated upon, but which overrides the descriptions provided by natal women
- redefined the term "woman" so that it holds no meaning at all
But none of that matters to you, and you don't believe it's a big deal. Females who express those concerns... well, they're just full of hate, right? None of those things are important to "real women" who are, actually, males. It's fine if you dismiss the views of females as not being important. It's fine if you ignore their voices and cast them as "overreacting". They're just typical hysterical girls, right?
It's not important to you if females are endangered and set back... so long as male people make gains.
No obviously we can't.
This is what is making this fundamentally different from the push for Civil Rights for women, minority races, or sexual orientations.
This is the first time "support" has included "Agree with my own completely internal viewpoint."
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Yes, exactly. Which is part of why we have sex segregation in many sports in the first place.
TurkeysGhost
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Sure, transphobes breaking new ground with their "separate but equal" arguments.
TurkeysGhost
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Fallon Fox was a mediocre fighter who was defeated by a cis-woman in the minor leagues and retired from fighting with an unexceptional record.
What are we "separating?"
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
That's a misleading comment.
It's true that most women support transwomen's right to present and behave in whatever way they are comfortable with, and should be protected from being fired or discriminated against on the basis of their gender. Every female in this thread - including Rolfe - supports that view. Most women feel that transwomen should be interacted with socially as if they are women.
On the other hand, however, most women disapprove of transwomen competing against natal women in sports. They are fine with restrooms but are less comfortable with locker rooms and other areas where females are naked. And their support drops to virtually none when they're asked whether they support any of those things for transwomen who have self-identified without a medical diagnosis and without any hormone treatment or surgery at all.
In short, most women fully support transsexuals, but are much less supportive of self-identified transwomen. For those most part, I think most women would be supportive of Boudicca for example - she's shown herself to be a generally considerate and caring person, who doesn't want to make other people uncomfortable, and is actively in the process of truly living as a woman and undergoing treatment to alter her appearance to conform to a female phenotype as much as possible. Even if we disagree with some of her views, I think most of us support her right to express herself however she wishes and to live her life the best she can.
Yeah, and females don't like it when "trans rights" is used as a shield for misogyny and reinforcement of negative and harmful gender stereotypes leveraged to keep females in their places and make them feel intimidated and threatened for speaking their minds about their own identity as females.
FFS - you even put female identity in scare quotes, as if it's something that isn't real!
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Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
duplicate post
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I've thought about it, and I don't think there's any "gender" in transgender tenets:
A biological man acting like a woman in every way that matters socially but identifying as a man is a man.
A transwoman acting like a man in every way that matters socially but identifying as a woman is a woman.
The second one isn't really my position, but I think transgender activists will agree with it (but I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong). Ergo, nothing social actually matters to them. Inner feeling is everything, and all this talk about gender and society simply consists of ad hoc rationalisations.
I don't even think that this should affect any rights, but my eyes glaze over when I read some of the gender nonsense.
A transwoman is a woman because she feels like a woman (in her opinion). That is all there is to it.
A biological man acting like a woman in every way that matters socially but identifying as a man is a man.
A transwoman acting like a man in every way that matters socially but identifying as a woman is a woman.
The second one isn't really my position, but I think transgender activists will agree with it (but I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong). Ergo, nothing social actually matters to them. Inner feeling is everything, and all this talk about gender and society simply consists of ad hoc rationalisations.
I don't even think that this should affect any rights, but my eyes glaze over when I read some of the gender nonsense.
A transwoman is a woman because she feels like a woman (in her opinion). That is all there is to it.
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Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
I'd like to ask again:
What rights do transgender people currently lack?
What rights are transactivists asking for?
What characteristics and attributes do ciswomen and transwomen have in common that makes them part of the set of women, but are distinct from the super-set of humans?
What rights do transgender people currently lack?
What rights are transactivists asking for?
What characteristics and attributes do ciswomen and transwomen have in common that makes them part of the set of women, but are distinct from the super-set of humans?
Paul2
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Thanks for clarifying, I was hoping you'd say the former.
Success in sports requires two things:
1) Physical ability. The upper limits of which are determined by biology. Elite level athletes attempt to maximize this through conditioning.
2) Skill. This can be gained by training, largely regardless of physical ability.
I don't follow MMA, but you say Fallon Fox is a mediocre fighter. You also say she retired with an unremarkable record in the minor leagues. I'm not sure what constitutes minor leagues in fighting, but she retired with a professional record of 5 wins and 1 loss. Which seems pretty good. (Her amateur record was 1 win 0 losses. Her opponents records (in chronological order):
Helsper 0-4 (TKO, injury)
Newsome 0-2 (KO, knee)
Jones 2-8 Submission (shin choke)
Evans-Smith 6-4 (Loss, TKO, punches)
Bassett 4-4 (submission, armbar)
Brents 2-4 (TKO, punches, concussion, broken orbital)
So it looks like she was successfully moving up the ranks and had a better record than any of her opponents.
Now, if she was mediocre in conditioning and skill, she seems to have been pretty dominant against a field that likely had been training for longer than she had. (Near as I can tell, she started fighting in 2010 and turned pro in 2011.)
So my guess is that you mean her skill is in the mediocre range. A disparity in physical ability can overcome a disparity in skill. Calling her mediocre weakens any argument and gives weight to the assertion that she had a physical advantage.
TurkeysGhost
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She is mediocre in the context of professional fighters. That's to say, she had excellent fighting skills compared to the rest of the population, but not good enough to make it far in the pro circuit.
She fought other low level, inexperienced fighters and had a string of wins, then lost, then retired. This isn't meant as a smear, my understanding of the pro fight circuit is one that is very rough for low level fighters, who make very little or no money. Careers are often short if they don't show immediate promise of bigger things.
Fighting isn't structured like other sports, with clear minor and major leagues. But it's clear that Fallon wasn't ever at the skill level to fight at the major headlining events, like UFC. She had a handful of fights at smaller, less well known venues. I don't follow MMA, but none of this venues look like prominent ones.
From an article from a sports writer that follows the sport:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2038764-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-and-her-slowly-fading-fifteen-minutes-of-fame
The fearsome fighter that no woman could match was defeated and never made it to the big times. Seems that being born a man didn't really help her that much as the claims say.
Head injuries for female fighters are common. Fallon Fox lost to a cis-woman in the most brutal way possible, TKO. Fox's opponent got on top of her and punched her in the face until it became clear to the ref that Fox wasn't able to meaningfully defend herself. Fallon Fox wasn't the muscle bound trans menace that reactionaries painted her out to be. If she wasn't trans, nobody would find her career noteworthy.
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Quick, let's all generalize from this one case as hastily as we can. It would be so much easier than asking whether men tend to hit harder than women after controlling for weight class.
Boudicca90
Muse
More and more I am coming to the realization that you can't.
Denying that we are women as much as cisgender women ultimately means there is a limit to how much you will support us. I see it time and time again, "I support trans rights, except..." There is always an "except" for so-called allies that can't accept us as we are.
If we aren't women, then we aren't deserving of the same rights and protections that women have. And anybody who has that view is not an ally, no mater how much you pretend to be.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Surely someone from the activist crowd must have already answered these crucial questions at some point over the last three threads and ~10k posts.
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TurkeysGhost
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Maybe you should ask whether a trans woman who has been doing HRT for years has an inherent, insurmountable advantage.
In Fox's case, the evidence seems to point to "no".
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Maybe instead we should ask whether athletes in that group have a statistically measurable advantage over the athletes for whom the league was originally set aside.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Concussions are common for fighters (regardless of sex). Skull fractures are not common.
Thread continues here.
Posted By: zooterkin
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