New Zealand Politics, the Ardern years
- Thread starter Airfix
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Greebo
Critical Thinker
As seen on twitter . .
"It's already 2021 in New Zealand. That's what happens when you have a woman Prime Minister who knows what she's doing. UK lagging behind again."
Pretty much sums it up for me.
"It's already 2021 in New Zealand. That's what happens when you have a woman Prime Minister who knows what she's doing. UK lagging behind again."
Pretty much sums it up for me.
Airfix
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Like it 
New Zealand politics has always been interesting.
They stopped subsidising their agricultural industry in the 1980's.
They stopped operating an offensive military air force in the 2000's.
Jacinda banned assault weapons immediately when a rampage massacre took place in the country.
But beyond that I don't actually know a great deal about NZ politics.
New Zealand politics has always been interesting.
They stopped subsidising their agricultural industry in the 1980's.
They stopped operating an offensive military air force in the 2000's.
Jacinda banned assault weapons immediately when a rampage massacre took place in the country.
But beyond that I don't actually know a great deal about NZ politics.
The Atheist
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It's a while back, but the subject's already been done, and the only update is that house prices are up another 5% since I started this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347352
tl;dr version in the title: International hero, domestic failure.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
That was last year, and a thread that died on Nov 14. Since then...
New Zealand Economy Surges Out of Recession In V-Shaped Recovery
Economic Weekly: Construction lifts as housing shortage grew in 2019
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
This somewhat gives the "domestic failure" claim a swift, firm kick in the nuts doesn't it?
From my perspective, my business has recovered considerably, to the point that my accountant thinks I could pay back my personal Covid Wage subsidy, but hold off paying back the ones for my employees until we see the actual March 31 figures at the end of the financial year.
The Atheist
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We've seen the biggest quarterly increase in unemployment ever, house prices have increased by 20% in the past year, in what was already the world's least affordable markets, the social housing waiting list increases by 22%, and 75 charities band together to highlight increasing poverty and ask for more money and resources.
Not even that. Labour promised 16,000 new social houses in their first term.
They built 258.
Only if you keep one eye firmly closed and ignore poor people, which is fair enough, because they don't count.
I'm not even going to mention things like this:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/he...-247-service-over-safety-issues-staff-burnout
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/po...s-emergency-crisis-part-of-a-national-problem
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chris...emely-high-demand/WVHIWE7VTTKWYZY2UTXVTIHMKU/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/baby-...in-pregnancy-care/DQAEZ43CTR2FX6MOPZAH7MD6MQ/
The Atheist
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I just want to add that the recovery - and even more so out strength compared to other countries - actually makes the inaction even worse, from my view.
Cheering about 20% increase in house prices doesn't help the families sleeping in cars. I can take you to a park less than 8 km from my house where at least 20 families are living in cars, and none of them are gaining any benefit at all from our wealth.
If kids forced to live in a car doesn't scream failure, I don't know what does.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
There are ~2.5 million homeless children in the US. If 20 families living in cars screams failure, what does 2.5 million scream?
10 Facts About Homelessness in New Zealand
Let's not scream 'failure!' too soon. The Ardern government has only been in power for 3 years, the last of which was dominated by the pandemic. Before that you had 9 years of a conservative 'business friendly' government that handed out tax cuts while attempting to minimize the severity of the homelessness problem.
Fact or fiction: NZ's 41,000 homeless
Looks like the 'failure' was well underway under the previous administration's watch, but they they tried to make it sound 10 times less than it actually was.
Or did they? Without an 'apples to apples' comparison we don't really know how bad New Zealand is doing compared to the rest of the World, or even compared to the previous government.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
The Atheist has
most of which suggest a heavy-handed
Fast-track approval for large housing projects sounds like a good idea, so long as it doesn't produce slum conditions like has occurred in other countries that tried it.
One thing missing from that list is discouraging immigration, but I'm guessing most people coming into the country now are NZ citizens returning from Covid-ravaged parts of Europe or the US. Kind of hard to stop them, and I suspect they might be a bit upset to find out the government gave their property to some homeless family (I would say serves them right, but...).
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
FTFY
Remember this was a government that had Paula Bennet as a welfare/social development minister... a hard-nosed arrogant cow who
a. wanted solo parents to do part time work when their children turned six - as if there is nothing for parents to do while their children are at school
b. openly stated that some people deserve "fewer human rights" than others.
c. wanted the Police to have the power to search anytime, anywhere without a warrant or probable cause
I have always considered her as punishing those at the bottom in the lower socio-economic levels rather than defending them. To paraphrase Jeff Daniels' character from The Newsroom (Will McAvoy) she made war on poor people not poverty.
Whataboutism.
When are you going to ask when the current lot aren't actually doing anything?
They have had three years.
How did Kiwibuild go?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
The Nats had nine years.... NINE LONG ******* YEARS of John Key instituting crap policies, tax cuts for the rich, beating up on the poor, screwing over small businesses while giving big, foreign owned businesses concessions and tax breaks, stuffing up the environment for everyone, and, since we are talking about housing, allowing non-resident foreigners to buy up land and drive up house prices ....and you want to get down on Labour for not having everything Jonkey stuffed up in those nine years, fixed in three!!?
Give . Me . A. ******* . Break!!
The last Labour lot had nine years. NINE LONG ****** Years.
beating up on the poor, screwing over small businesses while giving big, foreign owned businesses concessions and tax breaks, stuffing up the environment for everyone, and, since we are talking about housing, allowing non-resident foreigners to buy up land and drive up house prices
Yadda yadda yadda
Edit: and fixed in 3 years everything no. But at least some ******** thing
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
No, The fifth Labour Goverment, increased the minimum wage, removed the interest on student loans for full-time and low-income students while they were still studying, reversed National's ACC deregulation, and introduced legislation to increase taxation for those on higher incomes. They also introduced paid parental leave of 12 weeks, increasing it to 14 weeks by 2008. They also introduced Working for Families which significantly improved social welfare assistance for low-income families and contributed to a reduction in child poverty from 28% in 2004 to 22% in 2007.
No again, under the fifth Labour government, small businesses prospered more than at any other time in the country's history.
No again, under the fifth Labour government, foreign owned businesses operating in NZ were made to pay a bigger share of tax.
Again, no. Under the fifth Labour government, environmental protections were increased. Local councils became mandated to require environmental impact reports for any land developments that were to be undertaken under their district plans. They also passed the Climate Change Response Act 2002 in order to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, Emissions Trading Scheme was enacted through the Climate Change Response (Emissions Trading) Amendment Act 2008.
And again, no. It was the policy of the fifth Labour government not not allow non-resident New Zealanders to buy homes in NZ. A person could not live in another country, and own a house here as a "holiday home". They had to live here. It was John Key who moved to change this policy. Labour also passed the Housing Restructuring Amendment Bill (2000) which provided for income-related rents and set them at 25% of household income. This reversed National Government's market rental strategy, and made community housing much more affordable than it had been.
You should learn a few things about the politics of your own country before shooting BS from the hip!
Give me a break.
The Nats not that I would vote for them raised the benefit for the first time above normal in 30 years.
Small businesses didn't prosper. And foreign businesses didn't pay more, heard of Google and Ebay and Water bottling companies Labour promised to tax?.
The Kyota protocol the Nats boosted with signing the Doha Amendment
Working for families has worked out a poison chalice to just subsidise employers not to have to pay more because the govt does it.
The rental subsidies just got landlord raising rents to match it. Which ironically Labour supporters moan about.
Free uni for the first year did jack.
They haven't built **** all they promised, planted **** all they promised
And when they weren't sacking ministers for absolute ineptititude they were trying to keep people related to ministers names secret while sexual assault trials and tribunals were going on.
Who knows how much they have paid out.
Current one is their 3rd in charge accusing a employee of being a rapist for zero reason and having to apologise.
And this is apparently the "workers party"
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
What's "normal"
Rubbish. You are completely wrong about that. I would know, I have been a small business owner for 17 years, as well as a member of the CNZBA!
Rubbish. I posted the facts for you, did you read them, or did you shoot more of your BS from the hip again?
And...?
And so they bloody well should too!!
Your understanding of how this works us almost as deficient as your understanding of US politics i.e., you effectively know nothing!
I employ four people; one is full time, and three of them are on Working for Families and work the maximum allowed 20 hours per week. Without WFF, I would not be able to employ all three.... one of them would lose their job.
Let that sink in before you quick-draw and shoot off more ill-informed BS.
Since most rents were already over 40% of household income, and the maximum allowed was 25% of household income, please explain how "raising to match it" is mathematically possible...
Oh, and be sure to show your work on this one!
Helped both my daughters get their degrees! Neither of them are called "Jack"
Congrats genuinely. No more students went to uni than normal. In fact less, Can google that for you too if you can't be bothered
Actually I think I have just worked something out.
I think you might be "allegedly" "In my mind" "With no proof, so forgive me if I am wrong,
Edited by zooterkin:
<SNIP>
Edited for rule 11.
Please take any issues regarding moderation to FMF
Edited for rule 11.
Please take any issues regarding moderation to FMF
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The Atheist
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You'll get no argument from me on US being an abject failure to its poor.
Irrelevant, especially when you recognise that Helen Clark's 9 years started the rot.
And for the record, it was Cinderella herself who stated that she was going to solve the problems.
Getting a little emotional about it, mate.
You could at least try to be realistic.
Nobody expects Labour to have fixed the problems in three years. Just starting would be enough for me, but they have done nothing - they've say back and patted themselves on the back for taking someone else's advice and beating the virus.
They threw billions at employers as wage subsidies, which has been great for employers, while ignoring the real problems at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder.
They paper over the cracks instead of addressing the cause: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/charg...poor-charity-says/I3N6YOJ3OLUHRXNIUIB4P63SDY/
The minimum wage is a ridiculously inaccurate measure. Most recipients see no change, because increases merely decrease WFF and housing accommodation supplements.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Never mind... you can't argue with a rabid Nat!
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You do not weep alone.
I know that Trevor Mallard killed in 2002 the opportunity to compel literacy as a national prerequisite that could empty prisons, the maligned Donna Awatere would have instigated phonetic education.
This is where the catastrophe continued.
Ah the sacred cow of market rents.
These are destroying New Zealand, it is quite absurd for foreigners to applaud Ardern when she supports rising house prices and rising rents.
She does so to guarantee the annexation of National votes in perpetuity.
Utterly disgusting.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
Oh dear. Just like 'progressives' in the US, no progress is ever fast enough or radical enough for you. But at least we don't accuse our leaders of 'abject failure' for not achieving their goals less than 3 years into their first term.
Pardon my ignorance, but it doesn't look like 'nothing' from here.
A better policy than just sending out 'Trump checks' to everyone (even Americans living in New Zealand) regardless of need. Since the lockdowns force businesses to close, the least disruptive thing to do is subsidize wages so employees keep their jobs and the businesses they work for stay solvent. That way they can return to normal once the lockdowns are over.
But of course if your motive is to boost your popularity then handing out 'free' money to voters is a much better idea. Never mind that it only provides a short-term artificial boost to the economy as the money trickles up - by the time it runs out of steam you will have (hopefully) been reelected.
Hey, at least you have a reasonable minimum wage and generous welfare benefits. I am theoretically employed but in practice Covid has reduced my income to nothing. No Christmas presents for me! I sure hope Biden can turn things around...
You keep calling Jacinda Ardern "Cinderella", just like a certain US president who loves to put women down by calling them names. You blame her for all the ills of your country while ignoring the previous (in)actions of others (mostly men) and barely acknowledging her great leadership in dealing with the virus etc., suggesting to me that you might have another reason than simply a desire to see the best outcome.
I bet you think that if you were prime minister you could just wave your magic wand and poof!, solve the homeless problem by turning pumkins into houses (or one of your other
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I can assure you that TA is correct in his comments. Your arguments are essentially from incredulity that an international star is a local self serving disaster.
New Zealand is the 167th most densely populated country in the world!
Auckland has the tightest winter/summer temperature range outside the tropics in the world. Water is in infinite supply, and quality soil abounds. I am appalled at our wilful neglect of the well being of vast tracts of the population.
Disclosure of interest:
It is not my job to solve these matters because I never sought public office.
Auckland has the tightest winter/summer temperature range outside the tropics in the world. Water is in infinite supply, and quality soil abounds. I am appalled at our wilful neglect of the well being of vast tracts of the population.
Disclosure of interest:
It is not my job to solve these matters because I never sought public office.
The Atheist
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That's it? Your sole response to a reasoned and factual answer is that I'm a rabid Nat?
That's so far beyond laughable I'm almost embarrassed to point out that I didn't just vote Labour, I spent my own money helping Cinderella and her team of gutless clowns get elected.
The joke's actually on me - after 40 years of politics, I still haven't learned that politicians of all stripes are self-serving ***** and got sucked into thinking this Labour team might be ok.
I was wrong, mea culpa.
So I should just ignore the fact that they missed their prime goal by 98.4%.
Good deal.
Yet, that's exactly what Labour has done.
Property owners even deserted their natural party, National, to vote for Labour, because she was making them rich.
How many times do I need to point out that an economy that enables people to earn 2-3 times as much from their tax-free capital gains than others can through wages is not a way of improving the lives at the bottom?
Even better, she's admitted to hating it.
I think it's entirely apt from a satirical point of view, because she's actually the anti-Cinderella - instead of being the poor relative, she's the privileged twat ******** all over her poor relatives.
Utter nonsense strawman, verifiable by a simple reading of my posts. I'm blaming her for being gutless and taking no action on problems she admits to knowing about.
Another utterly feeble attempt to paint genuine, factual criticism as sexism.
I voted for Ardern. I spent money helping her get elected.
I voted for Helen Clark in four consecutive elections.
I'm sexist as hell.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
That's it? Your sole response to a reasoned and factual answer is that I'm a rabid Nat?
I wasn't replying to you. In fact, I wasn't even talking to you at all (note that I haven't even quoted you in this thread until this post)
I have long since given up trying to make sense anything you have to say.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Yup, exactly
You seem to have a far better grasp about Kiwi politics than either cullenz or TheAtheist
Nats in Opposition: why isn't this done, and that done? You said you were going to do this, and this, and this, why aren't they done yet?
Nats in government: These things take time, the profit will trickle down to the poor, we need more than one term to do this.
What you probably haven't heard of is TPS - Tall Poppy Syndrome... Germans have schadenfreude, we have "The Great Kiwi Knocking Machine".
Kiwis excel at a lot of things such as sports, innovation and ingenuity, but unfortunately there is another side of that coin. We also excel at moaning and whinging when things go wrong instead of getting off our arses and doing something about it. There is a certain part of our society that likes nothing better than to take people down a peg or two for the shear pleasure of doing so. You are seeing examples here in this thread.
The Atheist
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More complete nonsense.
What's being displayed in the thread is blind hero worship.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
What you call "blind hero worship", I call "giving credit where its due"
And don't bother replying (see my signature)
The Atheist
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Excellent idea!
Perfect way to avoid being challenged on nonsense.
_________________________
Meanwhile, since we're talking about Ardern, here's a piece on one her most cowardly failures - cannabis reform: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/ca...2/create-a-new-drugs-law-for-the-modern-world
The Atheist
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I may have posted this elsewhere previously, but it's hilarious, and on par with Trump screeching about Obama's golf, then playing it three times as much.
20 April 2015, Jacinda Tweeted:
...for the love of what, Cindy?
In the year to October 2020, the median Auckland house increased in value by $140,000.
Jacinda:
20 April 2015, Jacinda Tweeted:
...for the love of what, Cindy?
In the year to October 2020, the median Auckland house increased in value by $140,000.
Jacinda:
The Atheist
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Nothing to see here...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/...ded-to-halt-rocketing-house-prices--corelogic
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/...ded-to-halt-rocketing-house-prices--corelogic
The Atheist
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All Hail Jacinda!
She's finally cracked number one.
For the most unaffordable housing in the OECD.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/12...ng-with-unaffordable-housing-oecd-report-says
She's finally cracked number one.
For the most unaffordable housing in the OECD.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/12...ng-with-unaffordable-housing-oecd-report-says
PhantomWolf
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All Hail Jacinda!
She's finally cracked number one.
For the most unaffordable housing in the OECD.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/12...ng-with-unaffordable-housing-oecd-report-says
To be fair, Government Policy has very little to do with House Prices. The fact is that we currently have an influx of cash-rich NZers returning from overseas who are willing to pay a premium for housing here, and on top of that Aucklanders and Wellingtonians have now discovered that they can e-commute from anywhere in the country and so are selling up in those cities to the incoming NZers, and can then afford to drop 200-300k more that GV on a home in the provinces sight unseen, and still have a tidy sum in the bank or a massively reduced mortgage, sometimes both.
This willingness to pay way above GV in order to get the house is what is driving prices up, and there is nothing the Government can do to stop that. We simply don't have the builders to build homes fast enough to meet the current demands. And on top of that, we're having problems shipping materials into the country currently.
The reality is that even if you can take out the investors from the mix, first home buyers and returning ex-pats who are willing to pay far more than the valuation for a house are going to keep on driving the market as long as they are willing to pay those over inflated prices. And there's bupkiss that the Government can do to stop that without crashing the market and leaving thousands of people with homes that are worth thousands of dollars less than their mortgages. I don't think we want to see another 2008 crash, do we?
The Atheist
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Only to prove your own words wrong in the very next sentence:
Let in by a government consumed with keeping the rich rich.
Utter nonsense that can be answered in three letters: TAX.
God, I'd love to know what you're smoking, because it must be really good stuff. House prices are up 20% in the past 12 months. Even if they dropped 20%, a tiny fraction of owners would be impacted, and with interest rates at 2%, it wouldn't impact on owner-occupiers one bit.
The Atheist
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